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rockdeworld
2012-12-13, 08:34 AM
This topic is about times you've been overshadowed by other players in your group.

Normally, when I play D&D, I'm the optimizer of the group. But one time playing Star Wars, I was totally outclassed. I know what it was like for me. I want to know what experiences other people have had, and how you felt.

The time I'm referring to was a one-shot adventure with two friends, who I'll call Al and Bob. Al was the DM, and Bob had been in the past, but was just playing this time. I was looking through the alien races book and found one that gave +2 Str and the ability to use Str instead of Cha for Intimidate. "Cool beans!" I thought, and used point buy for an 18 + 2 = 20 in Str. The adventure required us to be level 2, so I was sitting at a cool +10 Intimidate and Jump on a Jedi Guardian 2, thinking about how much fun it was going to be to show off. Bob had also found a neat race he wanted to play, got it okay'd by the DM, and set it up, so we were ready to go.

This was a few years ago, so the details are a bit fuzzy, but I'll relate the best I can. The adventure started out something like "You're briefed by a Jedi master that there's [some problem] at [a place] on Coruscant, your job is to get to the bottom of it."

So we headed out to that place, and when we got there, found a very long line with some guy arguing with a guard. We rolled Sense Motive and found something was up, so we went to talk to him. I'm getting my intimidate ready, and when the guy sees us he bolts, so we roll initiative and prepare to chase him down. Bob goes first.

"I spread my wings, fly 60' and circle around him. My character's big enough that from head to tail he can pretty much fill this whole area. Also that guy has to make a will save against my Frightful Presence."

We both do a double-take. It turns out "Force Dragon," which I had taken to mean something like "lizardfolk" is the Star Wars equivalent of D&D's dragons, and neither Al nor I had checked it before the game started. "Well dang." I thought. "I feel pretty useless."

The adventure pretty much fell apart at that point. It was actually pretty late, so we quit for the night. I checked Bob's character sheet, and all of his stats were in the 20's-30's, his HP was sky-high, etc.

"I've still got a chance in a fight, I think." I said, and demonstrated my character's ability to use Battlemind for +2-3 hit and damage, then jump high enough to connect with a single attack. Then his dragon wiped my character out.

Has anyone else had a similar experience, where you've been outclassed by a party-member?

ThiagoMartell
2012-12-13, 08:57 AM
Happened when I was playing 4e and we spent a whole session fighting boring swarms of minions. It had to be done fast and the minions where ridiculously weak, so while my Bard killed a minion each round, everyone else was mopping the floor with tons of them. I did not even use my daily power that session. That really sucked - the whole party overshadowed me.

Krazzman
2012-12-13, 09:57 AM
I personally don't think it was min/maxing but more combined with cheating.

In the first DnD game ever and sadly my only campaign I played witht hem that lasted more than 2 or 3 weekends I played a Rogue. A slightly weird and easylyfrightened rogue. Due to system-nonmastery he had Weapon Focus Shortsword but fought with a Longsword and a Shortbow that was infused with a slight bit of Lathanders holy power (generating arrows of light). The thing was... I didn't really roll that well. Level 6 (to 11) with 18 in Dexterity and wisodm and charisma in the single-digits. Now he adventured with an archery-focused Fighter (later he had 1 level of sorcerer) and a Dwarven druid. It was fine, no one overshadowed the other as we most of the time fought skeletons or other nasty stuff. Now the thing was I was absent for one day and 2 other players joined.
One of them was a Charging Paladin with Spirited Charge and... well he dealt 200+ dmg per round. and his stats were somewhere around 18 18 18 18 17 16... with leadership and such stuff...
The thing is wouldn't we have had him join the mage would've made a good addition but due to him dealing 200 dmg per round the game went into rocket tag mode as the DM wouldn't listen to the archery-fighter's player how to challenge a group like us and well... thus the campaign broke apart.
Afterwards we always played one-shots with changing members and... if we managed to start a small campaign it broke apart after a maximum of 3 weekends.

prufock
2012-12-13, 10:07 AM
It actually doesn't sound like that "force dragon" was legit. Wings, larger than medium size, and stat boosts in a level 2 character? Sounds iffy. Do you remember the source of the race or version you were using? Google returns nothing relevant for "star wars force dragon."

LordBlades
2012-12-13, 10:12 AM
It actually doesn't sound like that "force dragon" was legit. Wings, larger than medium size, and stat boosts in a level 2 character? Sounds iffy. Do you remember the source of the race or version you were using? Google returns nothing relevant for "star wars force dragon."

Doubt it was. My SAGA races spreadsheet (which I've found pretty accurate in use) only lists the following Large races (with stats for being playable):

Gen'Dai
Herglic
Hutt
Mantellian Savrip
Tchuukthai (best guess)
Tof
Togorian
Whiphid
Yuzzem

None of them seems to fit the bill.

prufock
2012-12-13, 10:48 AM
As for the OP's question, I'm not really a strong optimizer. I mean, I know a few tricks, but I usually just come up with a concept and try to make it as good to that concept as I can. I could probably out-optimize the rest of the players in my group, but not by a wide margin. I've never really played with a high-op group.

The most powerful character I've played was probably Deimos, the sorcerer/dread witch/nightmare spinner/mage of the arcane order. Focused on fear effects (he could frighten a construct to death, literally), but MotAO let him call other spells from the spell pool as needed, so he could do quite a bit of utility casting as well.

Thing was, he died all the time. Like every second session. Part of this was because he had low HP, part because he would take ridiculous risks - he feared nothing, and had a healer in the party who could resurrect or revivify him easily.

navar100
2012-12-13, 01:08 PM
2E game, Player's Options. I was going to create a simple human cleric. He'd have an interesting ability or two and have spheres I find fun. Then the other players were bragging about how they were going to play githzerai and have spell resistance. The DM was all for it. As discussion continued I came to realize the players were not min/maxing. They were actually munchkining with the DM approving everything.

My "normal" cleric just would not do. I then purposely went munchkin myself. By the time I was done I was a cleric who played like a paladin. I had all the 2E paladin's abilities, except Cure Disease because I could cast the spell and immune to disease. The +2 to all saving throws was achieved though a permanent Protection From Evil. I could Lay On Hands, had d10 HD, and wielded a long sword. I had all of the paladin's spell spheres plus more while still having cleric spell progression. I think I still had cleric's THAC0, but that was inconsequential.

valadil
2012-12-13, 01:36 PM
I've been outclassed in a few games. Mechanically, I can live with not having the highest numbers in the party, so long as my numbers are still meaningful. If the fighter does 100 damage per hit and I'm doing 70, that's fine. If I'm doing 15 it isn't.

Player attitudes are what bother me. Some players will look down on the non optimal characters. If another player gives me an attitude of "why are you even here" or "you're too dumb to play a character like mine" I'm not going to have a good time. If the other players include my non optimal character, I'm happy.

That said, I'm usually relatively optimized and I try not to game with jerks regardless of my character's power level.

Clawhound
2012-12-13, 04:09 PM
I don't mind being outclasses, but I do mind being out-abilitied.

You see, being outclasses isn't usually universal. There's enough unpredictability in the game that always being able to outdo the next guy gets tough.

Being out-abilitied? Oh, that's grinding. There's nothing like being sidelined in your own expertise.

Tengu_temp
2012-12-13, 05:13 PM
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Bob was cheating by picking a race he shouldn't be able to play at that level. But the example still stands - being overshadowed is never fun.


Player attitudes are what bother me. Some players will look down on the non optimal characters. If another player gives me an attitude of "why are you even here" or "you're too dumb to play a character like mine" I'm not going to have a good time. If the other players include my non optimal character, I'm happy.

Yeah, that's the difference between a good powergamer and a bad one. A good one knows how to hold back so the other party members won't feel useless, and offers them building advice when they want it. A bad powergamer wants to outshadow everyone else and/or treats the non-powergamers as idiots.

HylianKnight
2012-12-13, 07:25 PM
I've found this to be the single biggest issue in introducing someone to DnD in general. Think of the new person coming in with the boatload of rules and all the people who are there to help them, but still, they're people who know so much more than you do. You pick a character, class, through down some skill points and just kinda go from there. Now not only are they trying to figure out the game, but within a few levels everyone else not only knows what they're doing, but their characters outclass yours by virtue of their experience and having goals in mind.

It really sucks when you're out-shined by the party or just end up as the Elan of the group, but now imagine that as your first experience with DnD.

I still shudder at the issues my first ranger had in a party with very supportive friends, but nonetheless an experienced paladin, druid, and bard.

Kane0
2012-12-13, 07:31 PM
I've been outclassed handily before.

I brewed up the servitor (in sig) and took it for a test run, going more or less equal with the other casters in the campaign.

Then a mate of mine lost his first character (bard) and came back as a bear (inspired from sir bearington) antipaladin. Has been the focus of every fight yet and is yet to be killed. The min part is that he cannot talk (communicating in mime) and has Int 4 and Wis 6.

My brother also knows the feel of being outclassed. His first character was an elf bard.

Yukitsu
2012-12-13, 07:58 PM
I'm usually outclassed, but that's because I do builds for other party members. :smallredface:

I use less restraint when I'm not building a character for myself, so they always end up more broken than the ones I'm using. For obvious reasons, this doesn't bother me.

PairO'Dice Lost
2012-12-13, 08:24 PM
We both do a double-take. It turns out "Force Dragon," which I had taken to mean something like "lizardfolk" is the Star Wars equivalent of D&D's dragons, and neither Al nor I had checked it before the game started. "Well dang." I thought. "I feel pretty useless."

Yeah...speaking as the kind of Star Wars fan who can quote hyperspace travel times between sectors from memory and tell you what in-universe year various events happened, there's no such thing as a Force dragon in canon and no official stats for anything like that in any Star Wars RPG. You done got munchkin'd.


As for my own experience being overshadowed, it's only happened once and that case was deliberate. Since I've been the most rules-savvy optimizer, the most tactically-savvy player, and the most creative improviser in most of my groups, I'm usually stuck as the GM and when I play I get to be a buffer/support type. My parties generally have fairly even power levels because I help everyone with character building and they know not to try to pull anything that would let them overshadow the group. At one point, one of my players (who was basically the physical incarnation of the Stormwind Fallacy and fortunately only played with us for two semesters) claimed that I wouldn't know how to enjoy playing a less-than-optimal character and that I relied purely on the rules for power because I wasn't actually a good roleplayer or improviser.

Them's fightin' words, so I asked the other two players who would be playing with us in the next campaign to roll me up a character: one of them would randomly generate a character, rolling for race, classes, feats, etc., and the other one would come up with my character's personality, motivations, relationships with the other PCs, etc., completely independently of one another, and Mr. Fallacy could add some roleplaying and mechanical hindrances on top of that. I don't remember the exact specs since it was a while ago (though I'm sure I still have the sheet somewhere), but the character ended up being a 12-year-old CG kobold beguiler/ex-monk/favored soul/CW samurai/abjurer/[something]/[something else] at level 13, with a 6 Wis and 4 Str (3d6 in order!), ranks only in Knowledge and Perform skills, a virulent loathing for any creatures with an odd number of letters in their name (hence the Knowledge, to be able to identify creatures' names), reverse kleptomania, and an extremely strong protective streak, among other quirks.

Understandably, this was not the most powerful or effective party member...but even at mid-high levels you can do a lot with cantrips and orisons, and he was the source of many crazy and effective plans (though the lack of Wis meant they usually went through some revisions for ethical, practical, and/or safety reasons), so while he was utterly useless in most combats and social situations (even being overshadowed by the 8 Cha frenzied berserker in social scenes), he wasn't a complete drag on the party. Even Mr. Fallacy had to admit that Snaggletooth Friedrich Witherby VI was his favorite character in that campaign and I could indeed function just fine without a mechanically powerful character. :smallcool:

inexorabletruth
2012-12-14, 01:47 AM
Well... I'm frequently outclassed by other players. I'm not a terrible optimizer; I'm just not a great optimizer, and I tend to surround myself by people who understand the finer points of build mechanics better than I do.

I try to stay within low to mid op campaigns, and always try to build towards a niche, then just rely on my deep-immersion RP to continue to have a voice and role in the group. The pitfall happens when I accidentally find myself in a PvP group or in a DPS oriented group. C'est la vie. I tend to just cut my losses and move on.

It's not always easy being outshined by the over-templated CoDzilla hell-bent on making the entire party redundant, but then, there are games for that, and there are games for people like me. I guess the trick is to be able to walk away from the bad fit with no hard feelings, or to amp up that RP and become the lovable loser that has the epic death scene after everyone has decided there is an intangible irreplaceability to your character.

I've had some pretty good death scenes. :smallamused: Made someone cry once. The group practically ordered to roll up another character, and after declining for the umpteenth time, I finally agreed to handle some of the recurring NPCs of the game. I had almost as much fine doing that as I did making another player cry with my epic death scene skillz.

Doorhandle
2012-12-14, 04:31 AM
I was once the one overshadowing the rest of my group.

lv 1 + arcane strike + melee bard = murders!

Philistine
2012-12-14, 05:47 AM
My very first experience with 3E, I went with an archery-focused Elf Fighter... With one casting of Bull's Strength, the Cleric became a better Fighter than my character. The Druid didn't even have to cast a spell, just wade in beside his animal companion. That was fun.

thriceborn
2012-12-14, 10:47 AM
I was once the one overshadowing the rest of my group.

lv 1 + arcane strike + melee bard = murders!

How did you get Arcane strike? It shouldn't be available to a bard until level 7 at earliest.

nedz
2012-12-14, 10:56 AM
Arcane Strike — CWar p96
Pre-Reqs: BAB +4, Able to cast Arcane spells

It's also not much use since Bards only get level 0 spells at level 1, which add precisely +0 to your attack and damage. Unless you are playing PF perhaps ?

Clawhound
2012-12-14, 11:16 AM
Then again, there's choosing to be outclassed.

I pick lower tiered classes just to handicap myself. It would be quite easy to Google an optimal build, but where's the fun in that?

As a good role-player, I've even made being outclassed fun. I played a syncophant halfling in an evil game who sucked up to the more powerful PCs. The character worked out brilliantly because the character wound up so sub-optimal compared to the casters.

That is to say, most players optimize $FUN, where $FUN= whatever they personally find fun. You can't take that personal perception out of the equation. Of course, that usually means that some player's fun is another player's annoyance.

rockdeworld
2012-12-14, 12:07 PM
For those who are curious, we weren't playing SaGa, but rather Revised. This is the book of alien races (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ultimate_Alien_Anthology) I mentioned. I can't find his race in there, so I guess he got it off the net or something. He claimed they were from the planet Lego (possibly spelled differently), and ships that went there stayed there, got sucked in by the planet's weird effects. That's about all I remember. At any rate, he even said later that it wasn't made for players to use, and just wanted to try it out.

Anyway, those are some rough stories.

PairO'Dice Lost
2012-12-14, 02:20 PM
For those who are curious, we weren't playing SaGa, but rather Revised. This is the book of alien races (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ultimate_Alien_Anthology) I mentioned. I can't find his race in there, so I guess he got it off the net or something. He claimed they were from the planet Lego (possibly spelled differently), and ships that went there stayed there, got sucked in by the planet's weird effects. That's about all I remember. At any rate, he even said later that it wasn't made for players to use, and just wanted to try it out.

Anyway, those are some rough stories.

Like I said, there's no Force dragon statted in any RPG to my knowledge, Saga or otherwise. The planet name and description don't ring any bells for me, and the closest-sounding planets would be Lekua V (very urban planet, inhabited by humanoids) or Lenico IV (uninhabited), neither of which has any dragons.

Morithias
2012-12-14, 03:36 PM
Like I said, there's no Force dragon statted in any RPG to my knowledge, Saga or otherwise. The planet name and description don't ring any bells for me, and the closest-sounding planets would be Lekua V (very urban planet, inhabited by humanoids) or Lenico IV (uninhabited), neither of which has any dragons.

The Force Dragon is in D&D 3.5

As an epic monster. I'm pretty sure Saga edition doesn't even go past level 21.

Tavar
2012-12-14, 03:53 PM
Most likely a different kind of force dragon. Different systems, so having different things with the same name wouldn't be too uncommon.

RandomLunatic
2012-12-14, 03:56 PM
Based on the description, I would guess Al was playing a Duinuogwuin (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Duinuogwuin) AKA "Star Daragons". They get statted in the RCR (or maybe OCR, not sure) supplement Geonosis and the Outer Rim Worlds under the world Iego, not Lego. They are stupidly strong, which is presumably why their description includes the line "Duinuogwuin may not be played as Heroes (read: PCs)".

Given the GM was just as surprised as the OP when he found out, I say it is a fairly safe assumption Bob did not get that waived. And even then, Star Dragons do not get Frightful Presence. To fair, in RCR, you can get it as a feat. To be less fair, you cannot get said feat at level 2. So Bob is outright cheating at least twice here.

PairO'Dice Lost
2012-12-14, 04:31 PM
Based on the description, I would guess Al was playing a Duinuogwuin (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Duinuogwuin) AKA "Star Daragons".

Ah, no wonder I couldn't find it, I was just looking for humanoid aliens. Now the comment of "the Star Wars version of dragons" makes more sense...and so does the "thou shalt not play one as a PC" note!


More on topic, the discussion about playing a dragon reminds me of another outclassed character, though this was a player's of mine rather than my own. The first game I ran with my new group in college was...strange, to say the least (lots of templates, eight new-to-D&D players, a half-evil half-good group that we split into two parties in the same world, and some other things). One of the two players who'd played before wanted to try a dragon PC, but not just any dragon PC, oh no, he wanted to have pretty much everything dragon-related in one character. He started off as a dragon shaman 1 with several half-dragon templates, then took a level of dragonfire adept, then a level of dragon totem barbarian....

He took every dragon-related class, ACF, and PrC he could find and qualified for, and I don't think he ever took a second level in a single class. He took Leadership for a similarly dragon-themed cohort and lots of draconic kobold followers, then took Draconic Leadership for a bunch of dragon minions. His cohort had a bit of a grafting focus, so whenever that party killed a dragon (which was quite often once the party had the resources to track them down) this player would get a bunch of draconic grafts. By the end of the campaign at level 15 or so, the only reason he had any combat stats in the double digits was thanks to stat boosts from his half-dragon templates, he had a few dozen breath weapons of various sorts, and was otherwise irrelevant in combat.

Kind of like an AD&D thief, he would kill a few things in the surprise round and then run and hide, which would have been actually useful if they ever got surprise rounds past level 6 or so, but this party wasn't the most subtle and the enemy soon found out about Sir Dragon-Dragon-Dragon-Dragon-Dragon-Dragon-Dragon. He spent most of his time running the party's business, coming up with increasingly-grandiose draconic designs for their mobile fortress (out-of-character thanks to good sketchwork, in-character because I let him invest all his ranks in Craft [Dragons], Knowledge [Dragons], and Perform [Dragons]), and otherwise being as dragon-y as he possibly could. He was screwed pretty much any time he was forced to make a non-skill roll of any sort, but he was certainly the life of the party.

Doorhandle
2012-12-14, 05:54 PM
Arcane Strike — CWar p96
Pre-Reqs: BAB +4, Able to cast Arcane spells

It's also not much use since Bards only get level 0 spells at level 1, which add precisely +0 to your attack and damage. Unless you are playing PF perhaps ?

Pathfinder, yes. The rest of the player were fairly new, too. Falchions are pretty neat for half-orcs.

Susano-wo
2012-12-14, 08:16 PM
For those who are curious, we weren't playing SaGa, but rather Revised.

Gah, don't spell it that way! :smallfurious:you made me think (due to reversing your meaning anyway) taht you were somehow playing a a SaGa based Pnp, which, whether homebrew or not, would be AWESOME! I call beast race! Prepare to be alternately horrified and disappointed in my power! :smalltongue:

ThiagoMartell
2012-12-14, 09:46 PM
Pathfinder, yes. The rest of the player were fairly new, too. Falchions are pretty neat for half-orcs.

But PF Pathstrike is hardly gamebreaking at all. (well, even 3.5 Arcane Strike isn't)

ShneekeyTheLost
2012-12-14, 10:50 PM
I generally try very hard to not be on either side of the extremes on that bell curve. Generally, I succeed. Sometimes, however, there are exceptions.

One group was extremely low-op, mostly because they were new to the game. One guy was a Monk, seduced by the 'wickedly high unarmed damage numbers' and 'super number of attacks'. Another went Fighter4/Barbarian2 because he wanted Weapon Specialization. Then we had a Rogue, who went ranged, but mostly stuck to Core materials, and had lousy damage output after the first round. Then we had a guy who played a Healer (yes, from Miniatures Handbook) because "They are even more awesome than Clerics!".

I got stuck with the role of Arcane Caster because no one wanted to deal with all the headaches of dealing with a spellbook.

Realizing that this party was going to get steamrolled against any CR relevant encounter, I decided to make a Party Support character. While tempted to go Bard, just for the IC optimization, ultimately it wouldn't bring much arcane power to the table, and I pretty much needed to be the 'if no one else can deal with it, then it defaults to being my job' guy. Which means Wizard was going to be the ONLY class that had a chance of pulling this off, unless I wanted to get into Rainbow Warsnake level of cheese.

I banned Enchantment and Evocation and took up the mantle of Conjurer. Upon hearing that I banned Evocation, a couple of the party members asked what use I was if I couldn't toss around fireballs. I just smiled and handed my sheet over to the GM, who gave me That Look before okaying it.

The GM informed me that there were no arcane colleges nearby, so I had to purchase scrolls to get additional spells, however he allowed that if I paid for them out of my starting WBL, they could automatically start scribed into my spellbook. I didn't much mind. I went in as Conjurer5/War Weaver1.

Since no one picked up stat-boosting spells, I picked up stat boosting spells for most of my 2nd level spells, relying on my Abrupt Jaunt to get me out of trouble. I did retain one slot for Glitterdust, of course. The look on the GM's face when I dropped an Enlarge Person on the whole party for the first time was priceless.

Later on, I picked up a Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell for GMW. I also picked up a cute little feat called Arcane Devotee for the War domain. I originally touted this for Magic Vestments to be chained, but this also gave me some melee ability with Divine Power. Blade Barrier isn't a bad area effect spell either.

My typical first round was 'move action to activate Quiescent Weave then Standard Action to cast Haste'. When I got 4th level spells, this was expanded to 'and my swift action to cast Greater Mirror Image'.

My character never really was personally powerful, but was an enormous enabler, and allowed the party to at least live through things which they never really should have. And all the while, I endured comments about being the 'weak sister' of the group because I never killed anything. Buffing and battlefield control certainly. Utility for sure. But the comment 'even the Healer has more kills racked up than you do' always brought a smile to my face.

After the campaign ended, the GM invited me to the FLGS to explain how I managed to pretend to be the weak sister of a group with the build I had.

Randomguy
2012-12-14, 11:11 PM
After the campaign ended, the GM invited me to the FLGS to explain how I managed to pretend to be the weak sister of a group with the build I had.

What's FLGS?

TuggyNE
2012-12-14, 11:24 PM
What's FLGS?

Friendly Local Gaming Store.

rockdeworld
2012-12-15, 12:41 AM
Based on the description, I would guess Al was playing a Duinuogwuin (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Duinuogwuin) AKA "Star Daragons". They get statted in the RCR (or maybe OCR, not sure) supplement Geonosis and the Outer Rim Worlds under the world Iego, not Lego. They are stupidly strong, which is presumably why their description includes the line "Duinuogwuin may not be played as Heroes (read: PCs)".
There you go then. Like I said, it's been a few years, so I'm still foggy on some of the details.

Anyway, my hope is that if someone ever asks what's so bad about min/maxing, I'll be able to point to this thread for examples.

huttj509
2012-12-15, 02:36 AM
There you go then. Like I said, it's been a few years, so I'm still foggy on some of the details.

Anyway, my hope is that if someone ever asks what's so bad about min/maxing, I'll be able to point to this thread for examples.

Anytime the methodology of one person diverges significantly from the rest of the group, there's strong potential for issues. This can occur whether it's "the dead weight" or "the angel summoner." It can also occur whether it's the "talk it to death" or the "kick in the door." Same thing can happen with the "things better unsaid" or the "vivid descriptor."

I've seen it said here before that sitting down to play DnD with people is like sitting down to play cards. Make sure you're all actually playing the same game, and things will go smoother, even if it's not someone's favorite game to play.

Averis Vol
2012-12-15, 05:17 AM
I can't ever say I've felt the pain of being over shadowed personally, but I can relate a tale of being the over shadower. Spoiled for length.

There was a time way back when my group had a friend we shall call Jim. Well, Jim was a....bad character builder, and held a very "there has to be a group alpha" mind set, who we only accepted as a contributing party member for our first game due to a misreading of many shot, rapid shot full attack, and application of stat to damage/attack rolls.

But, once we got out of that new group state ("okay, stone child is WAY OP, so no book besides core allowed, at least it's fair") we all started to expand our horizons and, well, we learned to play. so gradually he got tired of not being the big dog in the party, so he decided to DM so he could have the ultimate power to decide how things happened. So being our friend we tried to support him in his DMing efforts; enduring his constant favoritisim, remarks about how bad we were, and the fact that we were on a midnight train going anywhere and all the stations were closed.

So, after terrible campaign three: return of the least creative thing we've ever played (Every campaign idea was stemmed from something he had recently read or watched, this time he had his panties in a bunch about the Eragon series) he did the unthinkable and released episode four: Return of the choo choo.

So again, being his friends, we all rolled up characters. I was going to play a monk/sorcerer/arcane fist, and he denied it due to being overpowered. now, it is at this time that I want to tell you that he let one player start of as the first in line princess of the elves. Yea, all of em, and he started off with an extra 40k gold. the Mage had a staff of power, that artifact thing, and a free 9th level spell of any casting class once a day. and the Fighter had a +5 brilliant energy sweeping scythe (+11 in all). all of this at level 10.

and my washed down sorcerer monk was OP.
..............
.............
............. :smallfurious:

So I sucked in the rage and turned to the cleric class, intending to make a heal bot as I obviously wouldn't be contributing otherwise to the party, and slowly came upon the CoDzilla. So I roll him up and play the weasel game to get him to allow DMM persist, and for my one free legacy weapon I'm stuck with a measly +1 colliding morning star, base large size for two handedness.

So now that everything was set we walked into the dungeon and I dropped the full upload of buffs on me, and I drop them so hard his jaw nearly dropped off after I showed him my buffed character sheet, and not wanting to delay the game he let me go with it and we entered the first room. As we do he automatically makes us roll 3 will saves, a fort save, and 2 reflex saves. Everyone fails some component of it (Except the elf, who rolled lower then everyone and nothing happened to him) and the mage and fighter fell into a random whole in the ground never to be seen again (For like 3 hours). Now when it came to my turn and I rolled every thing in the high 30's he again jsut stared at me and couldn't even bull**** that I failed and let me and the elf continue on.....to a room with three CR 15 fang dragons.

So after he finished the description he got his I'm winning smile again and we rolled initiative. Knowing his penchant for fudging rolls we instated a roll in public policy, the dragons rolled 4, 8, 2 and I rolled a natural 19 and the elf rolled a 12. So the fight starts and first round I drop one of the dragons and chunk the one next to it for half its health with a lucky crit and the smile falls from his face. next turn he switches to the two in the hole and he goes through a series tirades that involve dropping rocks on the mages head and putting the fighter against 8 dread wraiths. Next turn comes around and the elf shoots a trio of arrows that get swallowed up by the dragons DR (this guy is the biggest elitest powergamer (he comes from a world of warcraft background)I have ever met, if something is not the best he absolutely refuses to do it, which is funny because he enjoys elven archers and thinks they're broken) so he is fuming right now, and in another round I kill the dragons, suffering a mere 20 points of damage, and through my use of greater telepathic bond, I know exactly what situation everyone is in so I teleport into the hole with the fighter.

so another round goes by, fighter misses and I drop a maximized blade barrier o the wraiths and drop them before teleporting back out to the dragons.

This goes on for another six hours and when we finally end the session I'm the only one with a smile on my face; everyone else had either left due to the BS, or retreated to other sources of entertainment, and one of my best friends had that look of "well, I just wasted 8 hours of my life" look on his face and just left.

So I felt like crap like anyone would after that. The DM gave up the elf retired his character and the mage and fighter just left, leaving me sitting there as the powergaming **** who ruined the session.

TL;DR when a DM drives you to extremes to even have a chance to "win", don't do so at your friends expense.

sufficient to say I've grown sense then and am mainly the DM now, but when I do play I make sure to moderate my power. Sadly, the elf's player has only tried harder to be a god optimizer.

Susano-wo
2012-12-15, 11:18 PM
If I was your friend at the same table, I would have started a slow clap. DM's gonna be that big of a douche, I would applaud you pulling that **** :D

Hyena
2012-12-17, 03:19 AM
Short answer? Yes. I'm playing Star Wars d20, after all.
Long answer? Well, everyone in my group, except one person playing non-combatant gungan skill monkey, is playing jedi. If you're not familiar with the system, jedi use the Force in the form of making a skillcheck against the opponent's defense. They can also deflect shots and block strikes by making a skillcheck against opponent's attack roll. The default formula of use the force skill is: 5+CL/2+charisma mod. Which is reasonable.
But then there is skill focus, which adds +5 to your skillcheks. And there is fool's luck which does the same. And there's destiny bonus. So, sixth level jedi may have utf throw d20+27, which they then compare to attack roles, defenses (my reflex is 23, by the way, and it's pretty high for my level) and do pretty much everything with it, like negating damage, seeing the future and the past, making you an obedient puppet with mind trick and stuff like that. While I'm playing cyborg trooper, which has an attack bonus of 10, moderate damage and some cybernetic augmentations, which are pretty powerful, but absolutely inferior to the Force.
Once again. Attack roll with +27 bonus. Against defenses of 17-25. It does aoe 12d6 damage that can't be lowered by shields. It can be used twice a turn. The whole thing can be used on level six.
Oh. And the thing is? Players claim there is absolutely no disbalance in the game, and one of them even claimed that +27 bonus to attack roll is comparable to +1 natural armor. And nobody wants to homerule anything, because "it's the nature of the game" and all I do is whine. Well, I guess it's time to quit.

ThiagoMartell
2012-12-17, 03:49 AM
I think the point is that in a Star Wars RPG, stuff should be inferior to the Force. If you disagree, then you really should quit that game.

Arbane
2012-12-17, 03:54 AM
I think the point is that in a Star Wars RPG, stuff should be inferior to the Force. If you disagree, then you really should quit that game.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster by your side, kid." - Han Solo.

Hyena
2012-12-17, 04:11 AM
stuff should be inferior to the Force.
No. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CdkGEVclMgQ#t=225s)

ThiagoMartell
2012-12-17, 04:21 AM
No. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CdkGEVclMgQ#t=225s)

I can't follow that link, since it's blocked here at work. However, as I said, you can disagree with whatever you want. In this case, you disagree with your group and with the craters of the game.Yes, do the right thing and quit.
I disagree with you as well, but that hardly matters.

PairO'Dice Lost
2012-12-17, 04:50 AM
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster by your side, kid." - Han Solo.

...he says to the kid who blows up a battle station and saves the galaxy thanks to a hokey religion and an ancient weapon. :smallwink:


No. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CdkGEVclMgQ#t=225s)

I would point out that the Sith in that clip survived the grenade blast, and was then taken out by another Force-user. Probably not the best example to use.

Morithias
2012-12-17, 06:18 AM
There's always the rule I use when I encounter this kind of min-maxing.

"Anything the players do is free for the DM to use."

Once you establish that rule, the min-maxing like that star wars stuff vanishes rather quickly, and house rules get established. The simple fact is that the DM has more resource, often more time, and ultimately more power in which to use his builds.

If there's anything I hate more than anything else it's a hypocrite. I enjoy slaughtering munchkins with their own creations, and I make it an established fact in almost every setting that magic is a SCIENCE not an ART in order to justify it.

You shouldn't be able to make some Uber build at the expense of the other players. And you certainly shouldn't be able to complain when the DM does the same is all I'm saying.

GnomeGninjas
2012-12-17, 06:29 AM
I was a rogue, the other player was a blaster sorcerer. We were fighting hordes of weak enemies.

LordBlades
2012-12-17, 07:19 AM
There's always the rule I use when I encounter this kind of min-maxing.

"Anything the players do is free for the DM to use."

Once you establish that rule, the min-maxing like that star wars stuff vanishes rather quickly, and house rules get established. The simple fact is that the DM has more resource, often more time, and ultimately more power in which to use his builds.

If there's anything I hate more than anything else it's a hypocrite. I enjoy slaughtering munchkins with their own creations, and I make it an established fact in almost every setting that magic is a SCIENCE not an ART in order to justify it.

You shouldn't be able to make some Uber build at the expense of the other players. And you certainly shouldn't be able to complain when the DM does the same is all I'm saying.

Actually that Star Wars stuff doesn't even require too much minmaxing. The hole is so big you might accidentally stumble in it. Let's say you want to be a Jedi who's good at using the Force(like let's say Yoda). Since Use the Force is a skill, you might think Skill Focus in it fits your character even before you look at the numbers. And so uou end up with a roll of 1d20+10+Cha vs. defenses of 11-12+con/dex/wis.

On the contrary, that's a situation where you need minmaxing expertise and knowledge of the game system to realize Skill Focus: Use the Force should probably not be taken at level 1.

Eldan
2012-12-17, 09:40 AM
There's always the rule I use when I encounter this kind of min-maxing.

"Anything the players do is free for the DM to use."

Once you establish that rule, the min-maxing like that star wars stuff vanishes rather quickly, and house rules get established. The simple fact is that the DM has more resource, often more time, and ultimately more power in which to use his builds.

If there's anything I hate more than anything else it's a hypocrite. I enjoy slaughtering munchkins with their own creations, and I make it an established fact in almost every setting that magic is a SCIENCE not an ART in order to justify it.

You shouldn't be able to make some Uber build at the expense of the other players. And you certainly shouldn't be able to complain when the DM does the same is all I'm saying.

The DM using the same stuff as the players helps if the players are all more or less evenly overpowered. But in that example? You suddenly encounter super-powerful enemies that give the Jedi a good challenge, but let the other player stand around looking stupid.

Imagine if you played a midlevel game with a CoDzilla druid, a batman wizard, a cheesy skillmonkey combining three classes, a few strange feats from dragon magazine and a totally broken template and a human sword and board fighter.
How can you challenge the three first players without making the SaBF standing around looking stupid for entire fights?

Morithias
2012-12-17, 09:42 AM
The DM using the same stuff as the players helps if the players are all more or less evenly overpowered. But in that example? You suddenly encounter super-powerful enemies that give the Jedi a good challenge, but let the other player stand around looking stupid.

Imagine if you played a midlevel game with a CoDzilla druid, a batman wizard, a cheesy skillmonkey combining three classes, a few strange feats from dragon magazine and a totally broken template and a human sword and board fighter.
How can you challenge the three first players without making the SaBF standing around looking stupid for entire fights?

You create rivals. Like Crystal. You challenge the PC's with rivals equal to their power, but you use the tricks that EVERYONE is using on the rival.

The sword and board fighter's rival is another Sword and Board fighter. Maybe even make that one a love interest.

Eldan
2012-12-17, 10:23 AM
But you have four players that are forming a party. See, it might look good in theory, but in practise? I've tried things like that. The players plan together, and the three just quickly blow up the enemy SnB fighter in two rounds, before getting on with the real enemies. It doesn't really help.

ThiagoMartell
2012-12-17, 10:24 AM
You create rivals. Like Crystal. You challenge the PC's with rivals equal to their power, but you use the tricks that EVERYONE is using on the rival.

The sword and board fighter's rival is another Sword and Board fighter. Maybe even make that one a love interest.

What's stopping the wizard from nuking the dude with his swift action?

Morithias
2012-12-17, 10:26 AM
What's stopping the wizard from nuking the dude with his swift action?

Counterspells, anti-magic, you got to work for this stuff people. The main advantage the DM has is that she can demand to see the character sheets at any time, and perfectly plan around them. Just see V's fight against the dark elf.

Eldan
2012-12-17, 10:51 AM
It still sounds muc heasier to just tell the players to balance their characters during creation. Because at some point, the players will question your endless succession of perfectly matched rivals for each of them.

Morithias
2012-12-17, 10:53 AM
It still sounds muc heasier to just tell the players to balance their characters during creation. Because at some point, the players will question your endless succession of perfectly matched rivals for each of them.

Yeah, but since when do players do what the DM tells them to?

IdleMuse
2012-12-17, 11:00 AM
Short answer? Yes. I'm playing Star Wars d20, after all.
Long answer? Well, everyone in my group, except one person playing non-combatant gungan skill monkey, is playing jedi. If you're not familiar with the system, jedi use the Force in the form of making a skillcheck against the opponent's defense. They can also deflect shots and block strikes by making a skillcheck against opponent's attack roll. The default formula of use the force skill is: 5+CL/2+charisma mod. Which is reasonable.
But then there is skill focus, which adds +5 to your skillcheks. And there is fool's luck which does the same. And there's destiny bonus. So, sixth level jedi may have utf throw d20+27, which they then compare to attack roles, defenses (my reflex is 23, by the way, and it's pretty high for my level) and do pretty much everything with it, like negating damage, seeing the future and the past, making you an obedient puppet with mind trick and stuff like that. While I'm playing cyborg trooper, which has an attack bonus of 10, moderate damage and some cybernetic augmentations, which are pretty powerful, but absolutely inferior to the Force.
Once again. Attack roll with +27 bonus. Against defenses of 17-25. It does aoe 12d6 damage that can't be lowered by shields. It can be used twice a turn. The whole thing can be used on level six.
Oh. And the thing is? Players claim there is absolutely no disbalance in the game, and one of them even claimed that +27 bonus to attack roll is comparable to +1 natural armor. And nobody wants to homerule anything, because "it's the nature of the game" and all I do is whine. Well, I guess it's time to quit.

I can tell you're frustrated, which is I think probably the idea of this thread, to demonstrate that certain styles of play can frustate other people, but assuming you're talking about SAGA edition here, you do need to get some stuff straight:

A UtF modifier of +27 at level 6 is absurd. I'm guessing the way you're calculating that is... +10 (training and focus) +3 (half level) +4 (charisma 18) +5 (Fool's Luck) +5 (Completed Education Destiny bonus maybe?) Now, I'll agree that Skill Focus' power in early levels is one of the most-commonly-cited problems in the Saga curve, and often houserules out. Fair enough though, your GM isn't, or isn't in way that impacts past level 5. One thing he should know, however, is that Fool's Luck was errata'd, in, I think, the very first errata for Saga Edition, to be a Competence bonus, not a Luck bonus, so it doesn't stack with Skill Focus.

Secondly, I have to question what kind of GM has players completing their destinies before level 6. I mean, I know it's in the rules there, nothing to stop you, but this is very very atypical for a Saga game, where most GMs ignore the destiny rules anyway. Even if they don't, the idea is that your destiny is your character's 'life goal', what you're working towards throughout the whole game. That's why the bonuses (particularly for Eduction on jedi) are so big, they're supposed to come late in life, when you're already massively competent anyway.

This cuts that +27 down to a much more reasonable +17. An average defense at level 6 should be around 20, meaning your Jedi here is gonna succeed around 85% of the time against that defense. But that's what you get for specialising; this character has maxed their charisma, spent a feat in SF, and if they actually want to use this check, needs to spend a lot of talents and feats on block/deflect/force training. And note that Block and Deflect get massive cumulative penalities for iterative uses in a turn, and level 6 is actually the level you obtain Double Attack.

The problem with Saga isn't that Jedi are too good, it's that it's much easier to optimise them than other character concepts. Also, Skill Focus is too good.

...

Right, back on topic. Coincidentally, the biggest time I've seen this problem is also in a SAGA edition game, with jedi, but in a totally different way. I GMed a ten-week game early in my GMing career, where the players all played Jedi. Now, this could have been fine, I think, but I ran up against one problem:

Now, one of my mates ran a Wookie with a greatsaber, for the damage machine.
A friend ran an Ithorian force sage, with lots of Knowledges and Vital Transferring
Another of my best mates ran, I think, a Twi'lek, focussing on dex-fighting and maneuverability, and sneaky stuff when required.
Somebody ran a party-face style jedi, with Farseeing and powers like that.
Another girl ran a Force Pilot, and had some telekinetic powers too iirc.

And that left this one other guy. He rolled low on his stats (back when I still thought rolling was fun :smalleek:), and bought, basically, everything. He had Deflect, and some force powers, mainly generic ones that the rest of the party already had. I think he also bought training in Pilot, but wasn't very good at it. He wasn't a great social roleplayer, he didn't feel comfortable taking on more diplomatic roles, and his combat strategy was generally limited to hitting things with his lightsaber. I tried to sort of help him find a niche, but I was stressing enough over running the game (wasn't so prepared back then), and he never really enjoyed it because in a party full of specialists, the generalist is often gonna be outclassed in whatever he tries to do.

I guess in retrospect, there are plenty of GMing tricks to move around this balance, help the guy develop more interest in his character, but I didn't think at the time.

ThiagoMartell
2012-12-17, 11:16 AM
Yeah, but since when do players do what the DM tells them to?

Well, when you play with friends that respect you, the work you put in the game and your right to have fun as well... always.

Eldan
2012-12-17, 11:26 AM
Yeah, but since when do players do what the DM tells them to?

Now that statement just confuses me. Maybe they don't follow your orders, but you want a good game, they want a good game, why shouldnt you listen to one another?

LordBlades
2012-12-17, 12:25 PM
Counterspells, anti-magic, you got to work for this stuff people. The main advantage the DM has is that she can demand to see the character sheets at any time, and perfectly plan around them. Just see V's fight against the dark elf.

the practical experience of most people would say that it's next to impossible to build a char that's
a) not a pushover for an optimized caster
b) not completely lethal to a sword&board fighter

Hell, in that particular example there's a good chance the druid's animal companion is better at fighting than the fighter.

Tavar
2012-12-17, 12:49 PM
Now that statement just confuses me. Maybe they don't follow your orders, but you want a good game, they want a good game, why shouldnt you listen to one another?

Sometimes they're just being jerks("Alright, No Evil Alignments for this game" "That's okay, I'll be CN but play it like it's CE." This was quite literally a conversation I had as a DM.)

Sometimes, the specific types of good games you want differ: someone wants a serious game, others want a comedic game.

There are many reasons people don't listen.

LordBlades
2012-12-17, 01:37 PM
Sometimes they're just being jerks("Alright, No Evil Alignments for this game" "That's okay, I'll be CN but play it like it's CE." This was quite literally a conversation I had as a DM.)

Sometimes, the specific types of good games you want differ: someone wants a serious game, others want a comedic game.

There are many reasons people don't listen.

There's also simple misunderstandings. Some people ubderstand the same thing differently.

Situation that has occured recently in my gaming group: DM gives player a very strong defensively but completely weaponless flying cube ship.

What DM thought about it: I'm giving them a means of transport not a weapon.
What the player thought about it: I now have a virtually indestructible battering ram.

Eldan
2012-12-17, 02:12 PM
Sometimes they're just being jerks("Alright, No Evil Alignments for this game" "That's okay, I'll be CN but play it like it's CE." This was quite literally a conversation I had as a DM.)

Sometimes, the specific types of good games you want differ: someone wants a serious game, others want a comedic game.

There are many reasons people don't listen.

Yeah, but then, why do you play with those people?

awa
2012-12-17, 06:11 PM
just saying don't be unbalanced isn't that useful becuase different people have different views on whats unbalanced.

I remember one game i was in and my characters 30ish ac (we were over level 10) was considered game breaking by the rest some of the party and the dm. But one of the players complaining was using chained Nauseating elderich blasts to basically end encounters in one round.

Now personally i feel their position was stupid but. objectively it doesn't matter who was right or wrong this situation could not be solved by just saying don't munchkin becuase their was no consensus on what was game breaking.

ThiagoMartell
2012-12-18, 02:57 AM
Yeah, but then, why do you play with those people?

Exactly. Don't play with jerks. No gaming is better than bad gaming.

Raimun
2012-12-18, 04:39 AM
Only once. I usually learn the rules before the first game and plan in advance a character that is competent at what he does. Nothing over the top but something highly efficient. I want to do awesome stuff too.

But there was this one campaign.

We played D&D 4e and I didn't know anything about this edition when we started. I picked one of my favorite classes from 3.5, Cleric, because no else was a Leader(/healer). The entry listed Str, Wis and Cha as useful. I went with Str and Wis as my best stats and needless to say, he was horribly unoptimized.

I still managed to bash heads with the best of them at the lower levels but most of his powers were simply rubbish because he would have needed Cha to empower them and Wis didn't really help that much.
I was basically swapping powers every level after learning more of 4e. I wasn't useless but you try to play a sub-par support character and tell me afterwards it's fun.

Eventually I got fed up with the Cleric and changed to a Striker who was death incarnate. :smalltongue:

Edit: I was much more content with my more capable character, so I think I can offer some advice. If you think your character is overshadowed/out-classed/complete and utter deadweight and you don't like it, ask from your GM if it would be okay to change your character or make a completely new one.

I'm not saying you should make something completely broken but I think it's in good manners to have something to flaunt. :smalltongue: :smallamused:

hymer
2012-12-18, 05:48 AM
@ Thiago: I've only now begun to realize that you mean it's better not to play than to play a bad game. I thought you were advocating playing a bad game. That sentence you use is pretty ambiguous.

Doxkid
2012-12-18, 09:21 AM
In some of my PnP games I tended to accidentally-optimize my characters; it was a real problem considering most of the guys I played with were friends, but will less D&D knowledge than me.

Once stole the show as a Tank-Marshal in a fight against a Purple worm (several levels before we were suppose to fight it); it was a bog standard encounter for me but the DM was angry enough about it that I got kicked form the group.

Darius Kane
2012-12-18, 09:53 AM
Yeah, but then, why do you play with those people?
Because they're my friends? Because I'm patient? Because I'm forgiving? Because I'm tolerant? Because I'm masochistic? Because I don't know better? Because I'm the same? etc. And as Tavar said, there are many reasons people don't listen. Not all of them automatically mean they are jerks.


Exactly. Don't play with jerks. No gaming is better than bad gaming.
So you're a jerk for having different expectations? :smallconfused:

rockdeworld
2012-12-19, 09:34 PM
I can tell you're frustrated, which is I think probably the idea of this thread, to demonstrate that certain styles of play can frustate other people
Pretty much this. As people have noted before, there is a right way to optimize (where you and the rest of the group still have fun), and a wrong way (where maybe you have fun but the other players do not). I made this thread to get examples of the wrong way.

Also, @^, I don't want this thread to devolve into a heated argument or name-calling. Thiago isn't calling you or your group jerks.

Alejandro
2012-12-20, 12:36 AM
Short answer? Yes. I'm playing Star Wars d20, after all.
Long answer? Well, everyone in my group, except one person playing non-combatant gungan skill monkey, is playing jedi. If you're not familiar with the system, jedi use the Force in the form of making a skillcheck against the opponent's defense. They can also deflect shots and block strikes by making a skillcheck against opponent's attack roll. The default formula of use the force skill is: 5+CL/2+charisma mod. Which is reasonable.
But then there is skill focus, which adds +5 to your skillcheks. And there is fool's luck which does the same. And there's destiny bonus. So, sixth level jedi may have utf throw d20+27, which they then compare to attack roles, defenses (my reflex is 23, by the way, and it's pretty high for my level) and do pretty much everything with it, like negating damage, seeing the future and the past, making you an obedient puppet with mind trick and stuff like that. While I'm playing cyborg trooper, which has an attack bonus of 10, moderate damage and some cybernetic augmentations, which are pretty powerful, but absolutely inferior to the Force.
Once again. Attack roll with +27 bonus. Against defenses of 17-25. It does aoe 12d6 damage that can't be lowered by shields. It can be used twice a turn. The whole thing can be used on level six.
Oh. And the thing is? Players claim there is absolutely no disbalance in the game, and one of them even claimed that +27 bonus to attack roll is comparable to +1 natural armor. And nobody wants to homerule anything, because "it's the nature of the game" and all I do is whine. Well, I guess it's time to quit.

Holy crap. The problem here isn't just powergaming players (and IdleMuse already caught the big errors they have) it's a WAY too permissive GM.

Susano-wo
2012-12-20, 03:40 AM
Only once. I usually learn the rules before the first game and plan in advance a character that is competent at what he does. Nothing over the top but something highly efficient. I want to do awesome stuff too.

But there was this one campaign.

We played D&D 4e and I didn't know anything about this edition when we started. I picked one of my favorite classes from 3.5, Cleric, because no else was a Leader(/healer). The entry listed Str, Wis and Cha as useful. I went with Str and Wis as my best stats and needless to say, he was horribly unoptimized.

I still managed to bash heads with the best of them at the lower levels but most of his powers were simply rubbish because he would have needed Cha to empower them and Wis didn't really help that much.
I was basically swapping powers every level after learning more of 4e. I wasn't useless but you try to play a sub-par support character and tell me afterwards it's fun.

Eventually I got fed up with the Cleric and changed to a Striker who was death incarnate. :smalltongue:

Edit: I was much more content with my more capable character, so I think I can offer some advice. If you think your character is overshadowed/out-classed/complete and utter deadweight and you don't like it, ask from your GM if it would be okay to change your character or make a completely new one.

I'm not saying you should make something completely broken but I think it's in good manners to have something to flaunt. :smalltongue: :smallamused:

as a bit of an aside, allowing you to respec your stats would have worked nicely. once your group found out that STR and WIS were both primary stats, wheras CHA is your only support stat (as opposed to the more standard 4E 1 primary 2 secondary), the easiest solution would be to allow you to swap one of them (though that doesnt help your race choice if it was, say a STR/WIS boosting race, but you would still be a lot more effective.

I had a similar experience in the only 4E campaign that I've been in. I was playing a barb, and wanted to rush in and maul things. I wanted to get into the thick of it and whup ass. Seemed the STR/CHA barb power set would do just that, with multi target powers and such. But the STR/CON barb is actually much better at that, due to higher HP and the way those powers and abilities worked. Was a lot more effective once I swapped:smallbiggrin:

Dusk Eclipse
2012-12-20, 11:05 AM
Part of the reason I started min-maxing and optimizing was because I was seriously overshadowed early on my gaming career, a friend of mine invited me to play on a high level D&D game (read 17-18 level characters). Ths party was an UMD-abusing Shadowdancer, a half-elf Arcane Archer, an Archmage and I, a Soul knife. We were fighting a Great Wyrm Dracolich in the Positive E energy plane along hordes of devils. The Shadow dancer severely damaged tue dracolich via Heal spells (via scrolls and staffs) the arcane archer destroyed hordes of devils with that ability to attack everything within range (he had a custom artifact level bow, extremely powerful) and well the Wizard had 9th level spells, nough said. Meanwhile my character's main contribution was missing with my mind-bastard sword and only dealing about 20-ish points of damage on the whole battle.

Sith_Happens
2012-12-22, 09:47 AM
My DM's dice have not been very kind to my Conjurer so far and we're two levels away from all the fun "Saving throw: None" stuff. 'Nuff said.

Kobold Esq
2012-12-22, 07:56 PM
I became a min/maxer specifically because I hated feeling weak. In some of my earliest experiences with DnD back in 2nd edition, I always felt constantly outclassed by many other players in the game.

In retrospect, those players were merely more familiar with the tropes of the game, and "knew" what to do in certain situations; they didn't necessarily min-max their 2E characters. Since this was pre-Skills and Powers, there weren't many ways to actually do that in our games.

But the result was the same: I never wanted to be dead weight. The feeling of being useless sucks.

But I agree with the guy who played the support wizard. A good optimizer should also be trying to optimize people's fun, which means knowing when to pull your punches.

My last longest running character was a fairly straightforward Wizard 7 / Loremaster 10 / Archmage 2 when the campaign ended. I had played that character since level 6. I took Leadership to get a cleric cohort so we could have healing and access to the variety of utility divine magic.

Somewhere around level 13 or so, I came to the conclusion that I (and my cohort) could easily take on the rest of the party (Fighter, Samurai, Paladin, Pixie Rogue, and a dragon shaman), and done so trivially. Also pretty much anything that would adequately challenge me if I fought at max capability, would murder the rest of the group.

So I talked to the DM. I basically promised not to break the game for everyone else, because it wouldn't be fun. Every time I learned new spells, I sent the DM a lengthy email about what exactly I could do with my spells, how he could counter it, and what I promised not to do.

As you can imagine, the email I sent him when I hit 17th level (Gate, Shapechange) was very, very long.

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Short version: Maximizing fun is harder that maximizing mechanics.