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View Full Version : How can I play a Conflicted Druid? (And discussion about wants and needs in general))



Gerkuman
2012-12-13, 07:07 PM
Ok, this topic comes from something that happened with me in my latest game of Pathfinder that I'm currently playing in. The campaign itself isn't important, but it's Burnt Offerings for those who were curious.

Anyway, I had always played my Druid as neutral, (I mean, it's a druid) though not a terribly nice druid. I had always wanted him to be conflicted between his racial origins (Chelaxian) and his beliefs. He had become an exile from his own country because he refused to pay lip service to his countries totalitarian belief system yet he still had this hunger for recognition.

So, the session before last he nearly dies due to a critical hit card from a goblin but is saved by the Dwarven Cleric and manages to be dragged home by the Half-Orc Barbarian. Eventually, all the party manages to get back home alive by some means, and we all hit the tavern.

Then the spit kinda hit the fan when my character basically said that he had had enough. The Cleric played his trump card (the one he'd played before) about the Goblins wrecking the forest, but I didn't consider that enough reason to by itself. This then leads to the game kinda derailing slightly (I say slightly since one of us had to go, so the GM called time before the debate actually started)

In the debate the following things were found out. The first was that although I wanted to play Drax as conflicted I didn't know what he actually wanted. The second was that the players of the Cleric and Barbarian didn't think that my character was being druidic enough. (Which I sulkily chalked up to them trying to make him be stereotypical, but in retrospect they had a big point). Finally, their idea of Neutral as an alignment is different to mine; they thought that since the Village was in danger, being uncertain if I wanted to get involved might make him Neutral Evil, whereas I thought that it was perfectly natural to suggest that a near-death crisis might make someone consider whether it was worth going to possibly die again without some kind of compensation.

So I'm wondering on your thoughts on the matter in question, as well as opening the debate on how wants and needs affect alignment and playstyle.

Afool
2012-12-14, 11:39 PM
(Weird no-one's commented one this yet)

Most people are said to be Neutral and one really good definition that I've read as a quote on these forms is that you need to be Neutral to look out for number 1, but Evil is when you look out for number 1 while crushing number 2. True Neutral is the alignment of Relationships. As I understand it, a humane True Neutral character is about how you feel about the people that you meet, like if your best friend in the world is in trouble you'd probably go through Hell to help 'em out. If someone is being a jerk to you and they need your help later, you could say no or screw them over (both being perfectly within alignment) or help him out for your own reasons. If you see someone on the way to a hanging and you know that there's some ambiguity about their guilt, you'd just walk on by because IT'S NOT YOUR PROBLEM. Now if you were a Good character, you'd be obliged to help out the jerk and the potentially innocent person. If you're an Evil character, then the Evil option might be to agree to help the jerk out to gain a favor with them, or to screw them over so badly that they'll never recover and with the prisoner... well I can't really think of anything besides falsely testifying against them but at that point it's really moot. I guess if Evil was feeling cruel they could through rotten fruits and vegetables at them *Shrugs* (I've never really played Evil). Depending on how you play your Neutral and your Evil, there can be a really fine line between the two but the difference is the reason why you do things. As a Neutral Character, I think that you're fulling justified in asking what's in it for you, but I'd like to ask some questions that might help figure this out.

How big a threat are these Goblins? Can you just skip by them on your way out of town on your way out? Do you have any friends in town or any other ting keeping you there? Are you being paid to protect the town? Are the Goblins desecrating nature or something like that? Why'd your Chelaxian (don't know what that is by the way) become a druid? What's your relationship with nature (Full blown worshiper, Respectful and Mutual Relationship, Using it to your own ends? Some other thing?) Why are you in the town in the first place?

(Rereading your post):
I'm not familiar with the campaign (sounds interesting though, might look it up to run for my group) so I don't know much about the situation (therefore the questions), but questioning whether or not something is worth doing, especially in the case of Life Threatening situations, is not a Neutral Evil worthy act. Hells, if horror movie people did that, the entire genre of "Dumb School Kids get themselves Wacked by a Serial Killer" would be drastically sparser.

And one last question. Why is he adventuring? If he wanted, he could have just moved to a neighboring kingdom or whatever and joined a druid circle there, or worked in a village providing it with Druidly benefits, or become a hermit (though that doesn't really jive with the whole *hunger for recognition* thing). Why did your Druid (after being exiled) pack up his bags, move out of town, and go treasure trawling (or dungeon delving or whatever term for adventuring you want to use)?

Sorry for the mess of text and there are many view points on how True Neutral could be played. The PHB provides a couple including the one(s) I mentioned, as well as an "enlightened" view of it of trying for perfect indecisive balance, oh and Races of Dragons has another one I almost forgot. It's embodied by the god Io. He's True Neutral because he is the representation of all things dragon which includes all dragons Chaotic, Lawful, Good, and Evil, so Io's TN by combination/default.

Jessica1990
2012-12-14, 11:58 PM
The man has great knowledge:smallsmile:

GoblinArchmage
2012-12-15, 05:34 AM
Why don't you tell your friends that you will roleplay your character, and they can roleplay their characters?

hymer
2012-12-15, 06:06 AM
I still don't understand what it is you want with your character. Throw that whole alignment debate to the wind for all I care, nobody ever agrees on that anyway. Let me also say that you should be careful when you delve into "I don't wanna adventure no more" territory. If you don't stop or get stopped, your character is headed right out of the campaign.

But your character has motivations and standards, even if you don't look at alignment. From what I read, his motivations are a desire for recognition and a belief in and worship of nature.
Who would he like to recognize him? Is anyone good enough? Because this might explain why he tried to help the village to begin with, to get recognition, but now that it turns out difficult, he wants to try somewhere else. This is a very superficial (and human) way to act, and nice characterization. But if your druid is to move past this and evolve into someone actually worthy of recognition, he probably needs to learn to get past this.
As for him not wanting to hunt the goblins, this too is understandable. If a huge dragon was out there destroying the forest, nobody would blame him for not rushing out to defeat it. Too big a threat, and he'd die to no avail.

Your druid now seems to be disheartened for a moment (or longer - and maybe because you feel a little disheartened). But his reverence for nature is sufficient to have made him a druid. It ought to be strong enough to pull him out of his funk (along with the prodding from his friends).

If I were you, I'd say my character sleeps on it, and when he wakes up, he thanks the dwarf cleric and congratulates him on his stoutness and dedication to service. Of course they must do something about the goblins, he says, but he's just not sure that going out there and get shot down again is the way forward. Talk about exploring other options, look for different tactics, maybe get hold of some allies in the fight, look for a different strategy from a head-on confrontation.

Cerlis
2012-12-16, 07:51 AM
Instead of saying that its perfectly reasonable for a neutral character (or even a non heroic good character) to not want to die horribly, especially if its for a lost cause and they dont think they could change anything........

I'll instead say this (and its something you should use too). It kinda craps on the nobility of self sacrifice if its assumed that anyone who isnt evil will go and risk their lives for others. That its EXPECTED. Then you have people being looked down upon because they are human, and people who are doing noble and great things as "just" doing what "anyone" would do.


In other words to be looked favorably upon, you have to be self sacrificing.

Its stupid.

-----------------------

P.S. I'd also like to point out two things on the same subject. Raistlin and the D&D snippets are a prime example of how RPG games have characters with spure-of-the-moment decisions. Often the players/writers figure out the exact reasons their character did something after the fact. Its part of the creative process.

the second thing, is that people pay psychologists thousands of dollars to help figure out what they want, and what their motivations are. Its perfectly fine to not understand your character at the time. Thats what you are there to figure out. And Its perfectly fine for your character to not know what he wants. And really the other players hounding you for your motivation is really breaking the OOC rule. They want to arbitrarily find out your character's motivations so they can manipulate you in game, or get you to retcon your character's decision.

They probably dont intend to do it, but thats whats happening.

Thrawn4
2012-12-16, 08:45 AM
I agree with the comments above stating that the alignment system is overestimated and that everyone is responsible for their own character. Stereotypes don't make for a good game anyway - I mean, do your friends also complain if the party thief does not steal from the party?

Your druid's conflicts should be fine. On the one hand self-preservation is a natural urge, encouraged by nature in general and thus fine for every druid. On the other hand you are also bound to help nature as you are a druid. Now that these two premises clash with each other every responsible (read neutral) druid SHOULD be troubled.

Cerlis
2012-12-16, 09:02 AM
I agree with the comments above stating that the alignment system is overestimated and that everyone is responsible for their own character. Stereotypes don't make for a good game anyway - I mean, do your friends also complain if the party thief does not steal from the party?

Your druid's conflicts should be fine. On the one hand self-preservation is a natural urge, encouraged by nature in general and thus fine for every druid. On the other hand you are also bound to help nature as you are a druid. Now that these two premises clash with each other every responsible (read neutral) druid SHOULD be troubled.

lol, natural urges. Mama birds will try to defend their nest, but if it comes down to it they will let the snake eat their eggs instead of die.

If anything being a druid should give you grounds to some of the cruelest behavior.

Because it just takes 1 hour of animal planet to show you that nature is nothing but violent murderous baby killers.

Thrawn4
2012-12-16, 09:18 AM
lol, natural urges. Mama birds will try to defend their nest, but if it comes down to it they will let the snake eat their eggs instead of die.
Which is the urge for survival, isn't it? And Mama bird does so only in a pinch, It's not like she does not care about her children. It's just that she cares more about herself.
Oh and I would like to add that there are animals who go out of their way to help their children (or even others' children).
EDIT: And humans, too.

Gerkuman
2012-12-16, 03:59 PM
Thanks to everyone who has posted so far. I appreciate it, especially since it felt like the topic was going to die without being noticed.

Since Afool and others have asked for more details about the situation, I'll give them now, in handy 'quote snippet and answer' format!


Why'd your Chelaxian (don't know what that is by the way) become a druid? What's your relationship with nature (Full blown worshiper, Respectful and Mutual Relationship, Using it to your own ends? Some other thing?) Why are you in the town in the first place?
The setting takes place in Pathfinder's world of Golarion. Cheliax is an evil and infernal empire and my character was forced into exile because he wouldn't pay lip-service to the state religion. He is respectful and mutual towards nature, working as a herbalist and meditating in the forest to restock his spells in return for looking after the forest's welfare.


How big a threat are these Goblins? Can you just skip by them on your way out of town on your way out?
They're coming to destroy the town (Sandpoint) and all the surrounding area. We're talking about 5 different tribes and at least 5 champions joining together despite their differences to annihilate it. That bad.


Do you have any friends in town or any other thing keeping you there? Are you being paid to protect the town?
I've lived there for a couple of years now, and while I've not been paid to protect the town our actions as a party have made us honorary watchmen. So there is some loyalty there. But there is a big difference between 'Let's band together with the townfolk and the 50-strong militia to hold back the enemy when they arrive' and 'Let's 5 of us go on a mission that could easily kill us. Hooray!'


Are the Goblins desecrating nature or something like that? We haven't seen it happen, but if they torched the the town the forest would be in big trouble.

So that's the infodump out the way. And yes, the character will still be in the party eventually. I just didn't want it to be a simple 'Forest is in danger, you need to help it, let's go' thing. I wanted a proper discussion and maybe some compensation, though I'm having trouble working out what sort of compensation a Druid would want.