Rain of Steel = Auto Marking?

[TopCheese]

So due to rule 0 being taken out of the game I've told my players that if there is anything they want to vote on that is... Questionable... Then I would make up a rule on the spot and then after game we would talk about it and come up with a group ruling.

The current vote is if *Rain of Steel* (Fighter 5 Daily) allows you to place a mark on any creature that starts their turn adjacent to you since they are taking 1 |W| damage each time.

Since one person dropped we are actually 2 vs 2 and I figured I would ask around on some forums and bring some outside wisdom to our discussion.

Argument for allowing the Mark to be placed
The power is martial so the damage must be coming from an "attack", this attack just doesn't have to roll to hit.
The damage is 1 |W|, thus is based on your weapon, thus the above must be true.
You need to be able to use opportunity attacks to deal this damage, thus again the first bullet point.

Argument for not allowing the Fighter to Mark with Rain of Steel
No attack roll
This changes the fighter's mark drastically, you essentially for free get to mark everything around the fighter... Even if said fighter does nothing but stands there drinking a potion

There was some others but I'm a bit sleepy.

Has there been any ruling on this?

If not (or even if so..) what do you playgrounders think?

Thanks in advance!

[vasharanpaladin]

Correct answer is NO. Read Combat Challenge. No attack roll, no mark.

[TopCheese]

In the character builder it says when you attack. The attack power is a daily that does auto damage with no attack roll.

I already shut off my computer but I'm sure it says attack not attack roll.

Kinda in the same way as magic missile IS an attack but doesn't need an attack roll.

(Should have added this to my original post)

I'm passing out now, laterz

(Also I originally ruled no but I can see both sides of the argument... I'm good about that.)

[DrBurr]

Looking at the Text for Combat Challenge right now, it implies that there's an attack roll, so I'd rule no. But even if you do rule only damage is required only a target can be marked by the Fighter, which I read as 1 Target. So they wouldn't be able to mark everyone Adjacent to them without a power which states it marks multiple targets

[obryn]

It is definitely a No, both RAI and RAW.

If you want a similar power and aren't averse to a theme, the Primal Guardian's Storm of Debris is a lower-damage, larger-area auto-mark that's easily up there with Rain of Steel for a Fighter. You just have to take the Primal Guardian theme, which you may or may not want to do.

And Rule 0 is anywhere you want it to be. The WotC ninjas will not hunt you down for houseruling.

-O

[NecroRebel]

Kinda in the same way as magic missile IS an attack but doesn't need an attack roll

Magic Missile isn't an attack, though. It's an attack power, but not all attack powers are attacks. There is no "Attack" line in the post-errata Magic Missile, nor in Rain of Steel, therefore those powers' effects are not attacks.

The answer to your initial question is, as several other people have said, an unambiguous no.

[Kurald Galain]

Correct answer is NO. Read Combat Challenge. No attack roll, no mark.

This, yeah. Although I must say that the difference between "attack roll" and "attack power" and "attack" is something WOTC should have thought out better (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html).

[SpaceYeti]

Looking at the Text for Combat Challenge right now, it implies that there's an attack roll, so I'd rule no. But even if you do rule only damage is required only a target can be marked by the Fighter, which I read as 1 Target. So they wouldn't be able to mark everyone Adjacent to them without a power which states it marks multiple targets

There is neither a stated nor an implied limit to the number of targets a Fighter can mark, he only has to roll an attack roll on them. That's all.

And, so, yes, everyone else in the thread is correct. If there is not an attack roll made and the power doesn't specifically state that it marks something, nothing gets marked.

[TopCheese]

There is neither a stated nor an implied limit to the number of targets a Fighter can mark, he only has to roll an attack roll on them. That's all.

And, so, yes, everyone else in the thread is correct. If there is not an attack roll made and the power doesn't specifically state that it marks something, nothing gets marked.

I have yet to read "attack roll" in the marking section.

Everyone that has been against my original view has shown me that it should mark. Rules as implied doesn't mean RAW. By RAW it says attack and the power attacks everyone adjacent to the fighter.

I sent this to the others and so far the one that said no changed his opinion so even without my vote Rain of Steel will allow marking. (We will be voting later officially).

Thanks y'all.

[obryn]

I have yet to read "attack roll" in the marking section.

Everyone that has been against my original view has shown me that it should mark. Rules as implied doesn't mean RAW. By RAW it says attack and the power attacks everyone adjacent to the fighter.

I sent this to the others and so far the one that said no changed his opinion so even without my vote Rain of Steel will allow marking. (We will be voting later officially).

Thanks y'all.
It's fine if you want to use it this way - really, the WotC ninjas have all been laid off this holiday season. :smallwink: But as far as the rules go, there's no actual debate or ambiguity here.

(I mean, by this same argument, if a monster has a Fighter marked, the Fighter would suffer any mark punishments for using Rain of Steel. And what about damaging auras?)

If you check out the Rules Compendium, under Making Attacks, the difference should make sense. Rain of Steel is an Attack Power. However, you do not use it to make an Attack. Yes, it's incredibly confusing, and WotC shouldn't have invited this sort of ambiguity! But more or less...

(1) There's no enemy targets
(2) There's no attack roll
(3) The range is "Personal" - that is, the Fighter is only targeting himself, not enemies

Rain of Steel is pretty pared-down; if a monster starts adjacent to a Fighter who's threatening, they take 1[W] damage. That's all it does, really. :smallsmile: The Fighter doesn't target any enemies or make any attacks for this to happen, in strict game terms; if he's capable of making attacks, they take the damage.

If the range were "close burst 1, enemies in burst" then yes, it would mark enemies. If he needed to roll vs. AC, it would mark enemies. As it stands, even by your reading as "using an attack power" the Fighter is only marking himself because he's the target of Rain of Steel. :smallwink:

If you want the flavor side - more or less, this is the Fighter being a badass and whittling his enemies down a bit at a time, but he's not really focusing on any of them like he normally does for Marking purposes.

-O

[Badgerish]

Attack
An attack roll and its effects, including any damage rolls. The word “attack” is sometimes used as shorthand for “attack power.” Some attack powers include multiple attacks, and some powers, such as magic missile, are designated as attacks yet lack attack rolls (using such a power counts as making an attack if the power has a target). Rain of Steel is not a targeted attack against any enemies. It effects the Fighter using it, as long as they remain in the stance.

Things that don't follow the normal 'attack' description but should be considered 'attacks' are generally called out as such.

The damage portions of 'Rain of Steel' / 'Unyielding Avalanche' do not count as attacks (and therefore do not Mark creatures via Combat Challenge)

[Kurald Galain]

Everyone that has been against my original view has shown me that it should mark. Rules as implied doesn't mean RAW. By RAW it says attack and the power attacks everyone adjacent to the fighter.

No, by RAW it says "automatic damage". By fluff it says attack, but fluff is not RAW.

For instance, just because the fluff of a power states or implies that it's a finishing blow (e.g. Assassin's Point or Finger of Death) doesn't mean that it'll actually kill its target by RAW. Fluff isn't RAW.

[TopCheese]

Going down to the +does magic missile make me lose my invisibility+ question it says "Rain of Steel" isn't an attack (and that it wouldn't cause invisibility to leave the fighter) since it doesn't have the attack line or target line.

wizards.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1396/~/d%26d%3A-faq-for-the-players-handbook


Now I'm not that keen on WoTC cust serv since I've always gotten weird and contridictory answers but I'll show that to the group as well.

This will work out well since the fighter wants to be more sneaky and was looking into ways of being invisible. (He has stealth through a background or something).

Edit: The Fighter has asked if he can changed how his marking works to "attack or damaged". In my games each person gets 1 change to a class (nothing extreme..) but the cleric is using necrotic and cold damage on his powers instead of radiant and fire (or whatever is normal for a cleric...). So far everyone is happy with just changing the marking system for the fighter so we are just going that way (just got the email). Love it when players come up with a good alternative to arguments hahaha.

Later and Thanks!

[obryn]

This will work out well since the fighter wants to be more sneaky and was looking into ways of being invisible. (He has stealth through a background or something).
Escaped Slave theme - check it out. It's a scary amount of fun on a Defender who doesn't lowball Charisma too badly.

-O

[Boci]

Edit: The Fighter has asked if he can changed how his marking works to "attack or damaged". In my games each person gets 1 change to a class (nothing extreme..) but the cleric is using necrotic and cold damage on his powers instead of radiant and fire (or whatever is normal for a cleric...). So far everyone is happy with just changing the marking system for the fighter so we are just going that way (just got the email). Love it when players come up with a good alternative to arguments hahaha.

The only thing I can see here that would need your ruling is ongoing damage. If the fighter inflicts it on an enemy, is the enemy re-mark at the start of their turn whenever they take the damage?

[DrBurr]

There is neither a stated nor an implied limit to the number of targets a Fighter can mark, he only has to roll an attack roll on them. That's all.

And, so, yes, everyone else in the thread is correct. If there is not an attack roll made and the power doesn't specifically state that it marks something, nothing gets marked.

I've always read A Target to mean 1 like an apple is 1 apple, that's all I'm getting at. Typically a Fighter only attacks 1 Target a turn unless he makes an opportunity attack so its not that big a difference

Though on further research your right, I've just made a mistake

[obryn]

I've always read A Target to mean 1 like an apple is 1 apple, that's all I'm getting at. Typically a Fighter only attacks 1 Target a turn unless he makes an opportunity attack so its not that big a difference
If he's only marking 1/round most of the time, he's picking the wrong powers. :smallsmile:

-O

[DrBurr]

If he's only marking 1/round most of the time, he's picking the wrong powers. :smallsmile:

-O

I majority of Fighter powers Target 1 Creature, unless you factor in a large amount of Opportunity attacks which is just poor tactics by the DM. The fighter shouldn't be fighting multiple targets

[BlckDv]

I majority of Fighter powers Target 1 Creature, unless you factor in a large amount of Opportunity attacks which is just poor tactics by the DM. The fighter shouldn't be fighting multiple targets

While I have no doubt that a majority of fighter powers are single target, I have yet to see a fighter build in play that did not select at least a few of the multi-target/burst powers (or use tricks to trigger extra attacks) except at the lowest levels of play. They may be reduced to single targets after the first few rounds, but if the Strikers and Controllers are doing their jobs, by then holding one target is usually fine.

It may just be a bias from the groups I game with, but I can't imagine a single target only fighter holding up as a Defender against most encounters unless it was a 2 Defender party.

[Boci]

I majority of Fighter powers Target 1 Creature, unless you factor in a large amount of Opportunity attacks which is just poor tactics by the DM. The fighter shouldn't be fighting multiple targets

Its a more a strikery thing, but there are minor action attacks that could be used for marking. Plus the tempest fighter in martial power. So whilst difficult it can be done. As for fighters not meaning to be fighting multiple targets, its kinda there job. Without elites and solos, there's one monster per PC, so if the fighters locking down 1, that leaves four if the party is 5 strong.

[DrBurr]

While I have no doubt that a majority of fighter powers are single target, I have yet to see a fighter build in play that did not select at least a few of the multi-target/burst powers (or use tricks to trigger extra attacks) except at the lowest levels of play. They may be reduced to single targets after the first few rounds, but if the Strikers and Controllers are doing their jobs, by then holding one target is usually fine.

It may just be a bias from the groups I game with, but I can't imagine a single target only fighter holding up as a Defender against most encounters unless it was a 2 Defender party.

If you can bottleneck you never really need to pick up extra attack powers with Combat Superiority, keeps most of the monsters adjacent to you. Combine that with a good Bow Ranger and a Cleric to Buff the Tank and your good.

[BlckDv]

If you can bottleneck you never really need to pick up extra attack powers with Combat Superiority, keeps most of the monsters adjacent to you. Combine that with a good Bow Ranger and a Cleric to Buff the Tank and your good.

Well, if you are getting this benefit from Combat Superiority you are either in a game in which you have exceptional ability to force foes into a single monster bottleneck reliably (I seldom see PCs able to control the selection of battlefield to that degree in the games I have seen, I would believe this in a game set in an Underdark like setting or with almost exclusively indoor fights), or you ARE marking more than one foe a round when they trigger Combat Superiority, which you had previously claimed was not seen in your games outside of poor DMing.... but we are drifting well away from the topic.

[obryn]

I majority of Fighter powers Target 1 Creature, unless you factor in a large amount of Opportunity attacks which is just poor tactics by the DM. The fighter shouldn't be fighting multiple targets
That's where your Utility powers come in, frequently, with stuff like Kirre's Roar, etc. And multi-attacking Encounter powers. And Dailies. :smallsmile: And Theme abilities, like the Guardian's.

Honestly, Fighter 101 is "Mark more than 1 enemy." By somewhere in late Heroic or early Paragon, you should be able to multi-mark for most rounds of an average combat - even if you're a 1-H Sword & Board dwarf juggernaut.

Likewise, Fighter 102 is "Force enemies to stand next to you, because being adjacent is usually good enough." Fighters excel at the Catch 22. It doesn't matter if the DM doesn't want to attack you; as soon as you're next to a big group of enemies, you're a threat.

You're right - if the DM sends all the monsters after you voluntarily, he's using bad tactics. You have the tools at your fingertips to force the issue, though, and you absolutely must do so if you're going to defend properly.

-O

[SpaceYeti]

I have yet to read "attack roll" in the marking section.

Everyone that has been against my original view has shown me that it should mark. Rules as implied doesn't mean RAW. By RAW it says attack and the power attacks everyone adjacent to the fighter.

I sent this to the others and so far the one that said no changed his opinion so even without my vote Rain of Steel will allow marking. (We will be voting later officially).

Thanks y'all.

If you were going to ignore almost everyone in the forum who you asked their advice, why did you come here in the first place? The fact remains that the rules are patently clear on this issue. If you want to do it differently, that's fine, but it's not what the rules say or imply.

Rain of steel is automatic damage, not an attack, just like auras and ongoing damage. If the fighter uses an ability which imparted bleed damage, does that bleed damage equal an attack and thus ensure another round of being marked?

[TopCheese]

If you were going to ignore almost everyone in the forum who you asked their advice, why did you come here in the first place? The fact remains that the rules are patently clear on this issue. If you want to do it differently, that's fine, but it's not what the rules say or imply.

Rain of steel is automatic damage, not an attack, just like auras and ongoing damage. If the fighter uses an ability which imparted bleed damage, does that bleed damage equal an attack and thus ensure another round of being marked?

Way to go ignoring everything I posted.

I was using the opinions and statements of the playgrounders to show my group info on the debate we were currently having. I doubt that counts as ignoring, unless you are able to recreate the definition of ignoring...

Please inform me if you write an errata for other word in the dictionary. I don't want to be confused anymore.

We all took in the information earlier and the party came up with a solution which they then asked me about. They took info from other places too but the playground helped them come up with an idea that the party liked. (Thanks playground :) )

@Boci : Ongoing damage would keep the mark on the creature, think of it as... The wound is still hurting the creature and the pain (damage) is causing him to focus on the fighter even when he isn't attacking the fighter... If you have ever been in some sort of fight this makes sense... The phatom pain from an attack will keep your mind on the person who did it.

I could explain that better but I'm falling asleep....

[SpaceYeti]

Way to go ignoring everything I posted.

I was using the opinions and statements of the playgrounders to show my group info on the debate we were currently having. I doubt that counts as ignoring, unless you are able to recreate the definition of ignoring...

I just re-read the entire thread, and nobody except you supported the Rain of Steel is an attack and thus marks those effected by it idea. Nobody read the rules of the game and came to the conclusion, the rules themselves are explicit and clear on the subject... if you listened to us at all, you seemed to toss away all of our input for your preferred method. Which is fine, as I said earlier, but it's not how the powers are written or intended to work. That's all.


@Boci : Ongoing damage would keep the mark on the creature, think of it as... The wound is still hurting the creature and the pain (damage) is causing him to focus on the fighter even when he isn't attacking the fighter... If you have ever been in some sort of fight this makes sense... The phatom pain from an attack will keep your mind on the person who did it.

Okay, and that's fine for your game. It's not how the rules read or what they're intended to do, but if you want to do it that way, okay. I understand house-ruling things. For example, I ruled that the Fighter's Combat Challenge ability counted as an opportunity attack for one campaign I ran. It worked out fine. House-ruling is fine, as long as you understand it's not what the rules intend.

[Boci]

@Boci : Ongoing damage would keep the mark on the creature, think of it as... The wound is still hurting the creature and the pain (damage) is causing him to focus on the fighter even when he isn't attacking the fighter... If you have ever been in some sort of fight this makes sense... The phatom pain from an attack will keep your mind on the person who did it.

I could explain that better but I'm falling asleep....

Meh, 4th edition mechanics are pretty hard to explain. It was a mechanical issue, not a fluff one.

[TopCheese]

Meh, 4th edition mechanics are pretty hard to explain. It was a mechanical issue, not a fluff one.

Oh yeah I know... I never really liked how WoTC explained marking and quite a few other things.

But I do tend to play different editions for different reasons... Making sense doesn't usually make the list for any of them *shrug*.

[DrBurr]

Well, if you are getting this benefit from Combat Superiority you are either in a game in which you have exceptional ability to force foes into a single monster bottleneck reliably (I seldom see PCs able to control the selection of battlefield to that degree in the games I have seen, I would believe this in a game set in an Underdark like setting or with almost exclusively indoor fights), or you ARE marking more than one foe a round when they trigger Combat Superiority, which you had previously claimed was not seen in your games outside of poor DMing.... but we are drifting well away from the topic.

Mostly indoor or crowded areas like in town squares, alleyways, dense tree groves, almost never open. Entire Heroic tier was spent traveling between three cities. So Typically my group's Fighter held up in a tight spot while the ranger, seeker and sorcerer hid behind trees or tables and the Cleric stood somewhere between them.

When I mentioned Combat superiority I was thinking with the realization that you could mark multiple targets and applying it to my group's tactics. I mentioned nothing of Marking being related to poor DMing just that if I was provoking a large amount of opportunity attacks then I'd be using poor tactics.