PDA

View Full Version : Reasons for the BBEG not to kill the party



veven
2012-12-13, 11:30 PM
My players are approaching their first confrontation with the BBEG and chances are he will mop the floor with them. He has shown no hesitation to kill people before. He really has no morals at all since his plot is to destroy the after life and his sins won't matter if he succeeds. He is really intelligent and I can't imagine him sparing them just because he is cocky.

Any ideas?

INoKnowNames
2012-12-13, 11:36 PM
Hm... that's a bit of a tough one... biggest thing is that his plans require one or more of them, so he has to let them live... for now.

Alternatively, they might need saving by a 3rd party. This guy doesn't seem like he'd be very popular....

Jerthanis
2012-12-13, 11:42 PM
One common motivation is that he wants the PCs to agree with him. He thinks they are powerful and would make useful agents, and his belief that his goals are justified and for the betterment of all means he believes that they can be convinced.

Alternatively, you could have some plot Macguffin that he needs fall into their hands, and them hide it away. He might want to keep them alive because he doesn't know which PC knows where it is, and that might give them time to escape after being captured.

Or you could just have him encounter them somewhere neutral, knock the PCs out, have him leave, then have NPCs arrive and stabilize them.

TheSummoner
2012-12-13, 11:49 PM
Have the area they encounter the BBEG in be unstable. They fight, they get their butts handed to them, but the battle makes things begin to collapse. Debris separates the group from the BBEG, preventing him from going in for the kill and they have to get away before being buried in rubble.

ReaderAt2046
2012-12-13, 11:55 PM
DON'T READ THIS IF YOU'RE IN THE "BIRTH OF A NEW SPECIES" CAMPAIGN!
In a campaign I am running, I plan to have the BBEG capture the heroes and tell them all about his plan. Thing is, this actually makes sense in a twisted sort of way, since the whole reason he's in this plan is to prove to the whole world that the crazy spell he's invented actually works. He's only working in secret because the spell is still not fully functional. The PCs will be the first witnesses to the casting of the finished version.

veven
2012-12-14, 12:03 AM
Have the area they encounter the BBEG in be unstable. They fight, they get their butts handed to them, but the battle makes things begin to collapse. Debris separates the group from the BBEG, preventing him from going in for the kill and they have to get away before being buried in rubble.

This encounter will take place in an ancient underground temple so this is pretty much perfect!

One of my players is going to be a necropolitan by the time of the encounter. Other than Halt Undead, what spells would be useful in incapacitating, but not destroying undead? He has 2nd level Wizard spells and 3rd level cleric spells.

JoshuaZ
2012-12-14, 12:10 AM
Another classic reason is for the BBEG to need one of them alive later for some prophecy to fulfill. This is a cheapshot sometimes but can work if done right. Another option which is having the BBEG be secretly related to one of the PCs (only do this one if you think the player really won't mind- to some people this will feel like dictating backstory once it comes out).

invinible
2012-12-14, 12:16 AM
Have the death of any of the party characters basically undo all the work of the BBEG and not bringing those same characters back to life when they are killed to prevent the BBEG from being able to cause any damage to the after life plus make sure the BBEG knows those details.

Techwarrior
2012-12-14, 01:43 AM
Have the Big Bad be In the middle of a long ritual that they have to finish before the 'insert cliche about eclipse here' The big bad doesn't have time to actually kill them, but messing them up really badly and making it clear he still had most of his resources works pretty well.

I had a long-running campaign in which the BBEG was a Cambion who wanted to kill his father for abandoning him on the Prime Material. The father was the most powerful general in all of hell. The party enters the ritual chamber to find the Cambion in the middle of the ritual neccasary to get to hell. Plane Shift requires a material component who's availability is specifically left to the DM, and all of the material neccasary to get to hell had been destroyed by the party.

The party fights his guards and summoned minions until the ritual is completed. Then the Cambion looks around in disgust and concludes he has three rounds to take out the PCs. Each one was in negatives, or otherwise incapable of action, except the rogue by the end of the 3 rounds. The Cambion told him he'd come back for the party when he was done killing (name of father). The wizard 'reminded' everyone who that was later, and they began to get really paranoid about seeing him again. They had been almost killed by a Marilith a level ago. The Cambion's father was the most powerful Marilith in hell.

Slipperychicken
2012-12-14, 02:22 AM
He wants to mentally Dominate the party, and use them for his own ends. After all, the PCs are some pretty strong guys, having taken out quite a few of his own minions. Too bad the "Dominator" needs to sleep and refresh his spells right now, so he has to stick the PCs in prison (giving them time to mount an escape, of course).

Maybe he just wants to torture/humiliate them, because he's some kind of messed-up sadist, or was abused as a child, or something similar.

Killing them would let the PCs' allies rez them, and the BBEG would have to fight them again. He can't take that chance.


Even Commoners under the DMG2 Mob template on become a Grapple-monster, sporting a +34 to Grapple. Maybe the Mob of minions just dogpiles the PCs and ties them up (binding mouths and stripping them of useful-looking items, of course).

ghost_warlock
2012-12-14, 02:52 AM
The BBEG's plot actually requires that he sacrifice himself to be successful (possibly with a resurrection/reincarnation clause of some time) so the PCs are actually doing his bidding by killing him. Of course, it won't do to let them know that so he'll still put up a fight and maybe take a couple of them out.

Bouregard
2012-12-14, 05:52 AM
Maybe he wants to ransom the party to someone else? Even the BBEG needs cash.

Killer Angel
2012-12-14, 06:02 AM
My players are approaching their first confrontation with the BBEG and chances are he will mop the floor with them. He has shown no hesitation to kill people before. He really has no morals at all since his plot is to destroy the after life and his sins won't matter if he succeeds. He is really intelligent and I can't imagine him sparing them just because he is cocky.

Any ideas?

He wants them to live, ‘cause he wants to use them. As unknowing tools and messengers.
He fears that someone (stronger than the PCs) will interfere with his evil plan, so he needs to spread false rumors, to deviate unrequested attentions. The PCs are perfect, he’ll do some bbeg’s speech, revealing the “plan”, or he’ll let them put their hand on some “secret clue”.
This way, he’ll gain time (and he can also scry the ones that will follow the false clues)

hymer
2012-12-14, 06:17 AM
Maybe it's time they realize they're in over their heads and should back down rather than confront BBEG? Could be made dramatic, overly so if you want it to. :)

supermonkeyjoe
2012-12-14, 06:31 AM
If his evil plot is to destroy the afterlife do the PCs know this? If so then he may not want anyone with that knowledge getting there first to warn whoever or whatever makes sure the afterlife keeps doing what it does. He may just want to capture the PCs and imprison them until he succeeds.

Scowling Dragon
2012-12-14, 06:55 AM
This encounter will take place in an ancient underground temple so this is pretty much perfect!

One of my players is going to be a necropolitan by the time of the encounter. Other than Halt Undead, what spells would be useful in incapacitating, but not destroying undead? He has 2nd level Wizard spells and 3rd level cleric spells.

This is actually genius. The players can defeat him if they play smart and destroy the environment instead of just smash and bashing.

nedz
2012-12-14, 08:19 AM
He's intelligent, but is he wise ?
Also, is he Genre Savvy ?

If the answer to both of those questions is NO, then one or more entries from this table (http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html) should suffice.

I believe that, in certain games, a d% might be appropriate.

ReaderAt2046
2012-12-14, 08:32 AM
Another classic reason is for the BBEG to need one of them alive later for some prophecy to fulfill. This is a cheapshot sometimes but can work if done right. Another option which is having the BBEG be secretly related to one of the PCs (only do this one if you think the player really won't mind- to some people this will feel like dictating backstory once it comes out).

I'm pretty sure that's what's going on in anti-Heroes, as it's the only remotely rational explanation for why Arderas would give Aldran the location and let them go. (Presumably Aldran is the only one who can open the prison, and he'll have to do so to kill Arderas.)

Water_Bear
2012-12-14, 08:32 AM
If it's early enough in the campaign, the BBEG might be indifferent to them anyway.

Think about it; you're a powerful Evil mofo trying to put some plot together, keeping the big fish (Kings/High-level Adventurers/Gods) off of your trail, gathering macguffins for your dark rituals, managing anywhere from dozens to thousands of minions and likely at least one stronghold. And then while you're doing some errands 4-8 low level peons jump out and yell "Taste Steel Fiend!" You're not going to take any more time than you need to brushing past them and getting whatever it was your were there for in the first place and leaving, and who cares if they survive? They're a random encounter and you get xp just for defeating them.

The surest way I've found to get Players to want a villain dead is not taking their characters seriously. Making them earn the villain's respect through their actions gives a better underdog feel and adds a layer of badass nonchalance to the villain. After all, it's not like the BBEG knows they're the main characters.

JohnnyCancer
2012-12-14, 11:54 AM
Give the party a chance to get some leverage over the BBEG so that the villain is less inclined to outright kill them.

Driderman
2012-12-15, 06:01 AM
My players are approaching their first confrontation with the BBEG and chances are he will mop the floor with them. He has shown no hesitation to kill people before. He really has no morals at all since his plot is to destroy the after life and his sins won't matter if he succeeds. He is really intelligent and I can't imagine him sparing them just because he is cocky.

Any ideas?

Depending on your setting's take on resurrection and such, how about you just let him kill them and then have them brought back to life by (and logically indebted to) a third party?

turkey901
2012-12-15, 01:13 PM
I guess it depends on the level discrepancy. If we are talking about a bunch of level 5's running into a level 14 big bad then we have to think why he shouldnt be interested in doing the job right.

I would either go with;

Kill the players and rez them by a 3rd party (as mentioned previously)

Have him busy with something and only pay a modicum of attention to the PC's ( a mage could just cast summon monster etc )

He sends a minion(s) of high enough level to challenge the party while he walks away

Or if you REALLY want to play the deviousness, maybe he needs some item, "the sword that killed the evil deity he wants to bring back but King Kick-a** in awesome town has that sword locked down," but if he pretends to be after something else, something that he knows this item would be used to stop this fake plan, then he could lay a false trail forcing the PC's to obtain the item and walk it past all the defenses into the open where he can steal it from them. So keeping the PC's alive makes perfect sense, he cant send his own agents in this way since magical detection would easily reveal duplicity.

Dimers
2012-12-15, 04:12 PM
The BBEG wants to keep them all as underdressed dancing slaves.

Especially the Initiate of the Seven Veils. :smallbiggrin:

TheOOB
2012-12-16, 04:25 AM
If the PC's know the encounter is too tough for them, and go into it anyways(assuming they have a choice), kill them. Actions must have consequences.

Otherwise, a Geas spell makes for a wonderful reason to keep the players alive, give them some sort of mission, and use magic(or threats to something) to make them do it. Make it something the villian could never do without the help of goodie goodie heroes.

AuraTwilight
2012-12-16, 04:40 AM
He's in it for the philosophical victory. He wants to keep them, and all other heroes of their ilk, alive until after he succeeds so that they can spend the rest of their lives waiting for oblivion and nihilism.

Vaz
2012-12-16, 01:06 PM
Does cocky necessarily equal arrogance? Can he not have the intention to just use them as pawns? Is he new tk his power? Are the PC's the Mystery Gang from Scooby Doo? If so, perhaps he can attempt to direct them into an antrain of thought simply because he can?

TheOOB
2012-12-16, 01:20 PM
In any case, I'd avoid having him not kill the heroes because they're no threat to him, or he's arrogant, a stupid BBEG is not a threatening BBEG. At least make them deliver his demands to some king somewhere.

Slipperychicken
2012-12-16, 01:43 PM
Maybe he wants to sell them to the slavers. After all, the PCs are full of energy and clearly quite able to work, maybe serve as fodder for the arena (or provide other, ickier services :smalleek:). There might also be a bounty on their heads, and someone wants them alive. Or someone just wants to eat them for dinner. It would be an awful waste to kill these strong, handsome youngsters when someone out there is willing to pay a good price for them.

If the PCs don't manage to escape, they might be bought and freed by their allies. They might have to fight their way out of a coliseum, escape prison, break out from some cannibalistic kitchen, or liberate themselves from some corrupt slave-brothel.

paladinofshojo
2012-12-16, 04:49 PM
Well, there's always the Lich King from WoW Wrath.... You meet him several different times in Northrend, thwarting his lieutenants and underlings. But all he ever does is simply appear, scoff you and let's you live, and leaves, claiming he can kill you whenever he wants. Of course he does prove he can kill you when you and your raid enter Icecrown citadel and he one shots the whole lot of you. His plan was that he wanted to kill you all at your strongest so that he can raise you all to be his vanguard to conquer the whole of Azeroth in the name of the Scourge. It would have worked if it wasn't for that meddling paladin Tirion Fordring....

holywhippet
2012-12-16, 06:23 PM
1) Throw some high level henchmen at the party before they confront the BBEG. Make it a brutal fight that will leave them badly beaten (hopefully) in order to convince them to reatreat as they are outmatched.

2) Have a third party teleport them to safety before they are wiped out.

3) Hit them with something like baleful polymorph to force them to run for it.

4) Have him make a deal with some slavers. He might capture the PCs and sell them as arena gladiators in exchange for something.

5a Violista
2012-12-17, 02:05 PM
I just finished reading a book where the BBEG didn't kill some of the heroes in the first encounter with them. Partially, he did this so that he could utterly humiliate them and destroy Earth's mightiest defenders in one fell swoop, proving that he is the rightful ruler of the world.

Another reason why he didn't kill them all was because he planned on using the captured heroes in order to bring the remaining heroes out of their defensive position. This could work in many campaigns: The Villain captures the Heroes of Prophecy in order to draw the High Priest of Goodness out of his protective citadel. That way, the PCs still live (and have a 'escape prison' plot), yet there is still a consequence for failing. Instead of the Players rolling new characters, they now have to either do a rescue mission or defend a now-defenseless city without the aid of the DMPC.

PCs still alive? Check.
The plot moves forward? Check.
PCs feel that their successes and failures really matter? Check.
The villain suddenly becomes much more villainous? Check.

Badgerish
2012-12-17, 04:45 PM
I can't find the story of this happening, but have the BBEG kick the party's ass, take their magic items/money and mock them. The party is guaranteed to want revenge, so they gear up and try again... and the BBEG and take their gear again.

It's like the loot just delivering itself to you! (with the minor inconvenience of defeating the party). Bonus points for saying "Hey, stop eating my treasure!" when the party drinks potions or reads scrolls.

Slipperychicken
2012-12-17, 07:21 PM
I can't find the story of this happening, but have the BBEG kick the party's ass, take their magic items/money and mock them. The party is guaranteed to want revenge, so they gear up and try again... and the BBEG and take their gear again.

It's like the loot just delivering itself to you! (with the minor inconvenience of defeating the party). Bonus points for saying "Hey, stop eating my treasure!" when the party drinks potions or reads scrolls.

A true PC BBEG would tie them up completely naked and gagged, parade them around the countryside for a few days without food, asking if anyone wants to buy them... Then one of his coworkers unceremoniously slashes their throats after 4 hours of petty bickering about what to do with them (25% chance of setting them free instead).


Or toss them into a makeshift arena (still completely naked), and repeatedly defeat them until he stopped getting XP from it, all the while complaining about how boring the level-grind is.

Melayl
2012-12-17, 08:46 PM
If the BBEG is so powerful, perhaps he wants a challenge. He beats the PC's fairly handily, but sees "potential" in them. He mocks them and tells them to come back and try again when they present a challenge. Perhaps he even throws certain challenges their way to help improve them... Perhaps he even wants to die, but can't let himself be killed by just anybody.

Acanous
2012-12-17, 08:52 PM
How rare are magical things in your world? If there is either no Magic Mart, or if Magic Items are rather common and could be used as a high-value currancy, your BBEG could just strip the PCs of obviously magical gear after defeating them, and then leaving with his fat sack of loot.

If they come back later, he has their old things and knows how they fight, so they just turn into a loot-delivery-service.

DigoDragon
2012-12-18, 08:08 AM
If the BBEG is so powerful, perhaps he wants a challenge. He beats the PC's fairly handily, but sees "potential" in them.

Somewhat related-- when I ran Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, I rewrote a few details of the module, including that Count Strahd was not the head vampire, but second in command. And he was bored of his existance.

Enter the PCs who have the potential to kill him. Now Strahd sees the opportunity to leave the mortal realm, but he's not just gonna sit there and get staked. I had Strahd play around with the party's minds, challenge their strength and question their souls. It was quite figuratively a fun cat and mouse game for Strahd.
Thats why he didn't kill the PCs. He wanted a final fun night of adventure before his send off. :smallbiggrin:

Falconer
2012-12-20, 09:21 PM
1) The BBEG is an old friend/relative of one or more of the PC's. Evil has loved ones too, ya know, and that might be enough to get you a free "I'll let you live just this once" pass.

2) A more powerful third party/dangerous event interrupts the battle just as the BBEG is about to deliver the killing blow. The vampire lord would stay and kill the heroes, but that's the sun that's just over the horizon. Better run.

3) The PC's are necessary for the Big Bad's plan. Perhaps one of the PC's is The Chosen One, who must be sacrificed on the 13th day of the 7th month of the 108th year after X event as a part of ritual Y, and if they die before then, all is lost.

4) Pride. Maybe after defeating the heroes, the Big Bad, after robbing them of all their equipment and such, lets them go to spread tales of his power and might. This would fit for a barbarian warlord or other such character.

toapat
2012-12-20, 11:53 PM
No matter what, everyone else here has already proven they do not, in fact, know how to write a BBEG:

Your BBEG should not need to defeat the players. He should in fact show bad form, while the PCs are showing good form. And his honor requires him to retreat for a more opportune time in which to force the PCs to show bad form.

Just because you are an incredibly evil person, does not mean you are required to give into more then the desire for ultimate power, you can be a gentleman

LadyFoxfire
2012-12-21, 07:43 AM
We did one campaign where a dragon was stalking the party because we killed her baby. She beat the crap out of a couple of party members, but then left them alive because killing them would be too easy and thus no fun. She really wanted to make us suffer, and knowing you're being personally targeted by a dragon that could kill you whenever she wants is pretty nerve-wracking.

Roderick_BR
2012-12-21, 12:26 PM
A simple solution is to reduce them to 0 and unconcious, and the Bbeg just doesn't care enough for them thinking they already died on his first blow. More a carelessny from the villain than him "sparing" the group. Make it apparent by having others adventurers that actually died all around the room. He's just too busy with his master plan to care for "lowly" opponents.
After all, if he's on his way to erradicate all life, why should he waste time with such "wimps" that (apparently) died too quickly? As far as he cares, the party died, so he doesn't care for them anymore.

Also makes the players hate the villain even more.

themocaw
2012-12-21, 01:09 PM
I'm gonna challenge an assumption and ask you this: why not kill off the party?

Then have them roll up new characters and say, "Ten years after the deaths of the great heroes. . ."

EDIT: Alternative idea: "Now, normally I'd just kill you guys, but I'm getting sick of villains like you trying to get in the way of the great cause. So I'm going to let you live as a reminder of what happens to people who cross me."

Then blind one player character, cut the hands off of a second, cut the legs off of a third, and so on and so forth.

Driderman
2012-12-21, 01:54 PM
A simple solution is to reduce them to 0 and unconcious, and the Bbeg just doesn't care enough for them thinking they already died on his first blow. More a carelessny from the villain than him "sparing" the group. Make it apparent by having others adventurers that actually died all around the room. He's just too busy with his master plan to care for "lowly" opponents.
After all, if he's on his way to erradicate all life, why should he waste time with such "wimps" that (apparently) died too quickly? As far as he cares, the party died, so he doesn't care for them anymore.

Also makes the players hate the villain even more.

Could also easily feel like a DM "pulling the punches" though, if the players were so inclined. Not a bad idea, but needs to be done with finesse.

Mono Vertigo
2012-12-21, 05:33 PM
I don't think I saw the following reason:
his own amusement.
Perhaps it amuses him manipulating or dealing directly with the party. Or maybe he can actually watch their adventures at a distance.
Just because they're your enemies doesn't mean they can't be entertaining.

Incom
2012-12-21, 08:55 PM
The BBEG is trying to destroy the afterlife. Maybe he needs to go there, without offing himself directly? By raising the PCs to kill him, he completes a crucial link in his own plan.

TuggyNE
2012-12-22, 05:50 AM
I can't find the story of this happening, but have the BBEG kick the party's ass, take their magic items/money and mock them. The party is guaranteed to want revenge, so they gear up and try again... and the BBEG and take their gear again.

It's like the loot just delivering itself to you! (with the minor inconvenience of defeating the party). Bonus points for saying "Hey, stop eating my treasure!" when the party drinks potions or reads scrolls.

Steve the Aboleth. The thread is, indeed, quite intriguing.

Lanaya
2012-12-25, 02:53 AM
Could also easily feel like a DM "pulling the punches" though, if the players were so inclined. Not a bad idea, but needs to be done with finesse.

It makes a lot of sense though, as long as they aren't actually in the BBEG's lair at the time and he can just happily leave their bodies where they lie and wander off. How often do PCs methodically coup de grace every enemy in a random encounter just on the offchance that they were in fact an adventuring party who will one day be about ten levels higher than they are now and come back for revenge? From the BBEG's perspective these guys aren't anything special, he doesn't know they're the main characters. He has no real reason to ensure that they die.

Amphetryon
2012-12-25, 08:56 AM
If it's early enough in the campaign, the BBEG might be indifferent to them anyway.

Think about it; you're a powerful Evil mofo trying to put some plot together, keeping the big fish (Kings/High-level Adventurers/Gods) off of your trail, gathering macguffins for your dark rituals, managing anywhere from dozens to thousands of minions and likely at least one stronghold. And then while you're doing some errands 4-8 low level peons jump out and yell "Taste Steel Fiend!" You're not going to take any more time than you need to brushing past them and getting whatever it was your were there for in the first place and leaving, and who cares if they survive? They're a random encounter and you get xp just for defeating them.

The surest way I've found to get Players to want a villain dead is not taking their characters seriously. Making them earn the villain's respect through their actions gives a better underdog feel and adds a layer of badass nonchalance to the villain. After all, it's not like the BBEG knows they're the main characters.Glad that works for you. It invariably leads to "the DM was being nice" commentary IME, though.

SgtCarnage92
2012-12-27, 06:09 AM
Killing them is to easy. Killing them is too gross a display of power. Maybe he doesn't want to show all of his cards from the start. Maybe he likes to toy with them, because they intrigue him for some reason.

Maybe he takes pleasure in breaking their will to fight on, perhaps to rebuild them as he would prefer (his elite minions). While they go and fight him, his armies are razing their hometowns. He's capturing lovers and friends to either execute or turn to his cause. He knew they would come for him, and he delights in giving them a choice, forcing the heroes to make a sacrifice to bring him down.

They are all geared up for a fight and he tells them what else is happening. They can stay and fight him for sure, or they can go attempt to save whatever is precious to them (assuming they don't think he's lying).

Maybe he thinks so much of himself that he doesn't even think it's worth his time to face off against the party. Send a few elite minions to take them out while he leaves on the back of some great evil beast and flies off to his citadel of doom.

Threadnaught
2012-12-28, 11:18 AM
Let the BBEG flex his muscles, having already cast a few spells and also buffed up himself, he is combat ready, but incapable of instantly wiping the party. Now he opens combat with a spell that takes out at least one party member, the party member is not dead, but isn't able to contribute to the battle while the spell lasts. Next up use the lower level spells to see how tough these nuisances really are, then if the players really do prove to be ineffective, stop all spellcasting altogether. Smack them around bare handed. If you get them all down to 0HP, stab them in the gut with a dagger.
If they start turning the fight around though. Once they're all fighting and putting everything into the fight, use up those other spellslots, rebuff, control the battlefield and debuff the party. Once the entire party is dying, assume they're going to die and just walk out of there laughing.
If they don't stabilize, then too bad. Eitherway they'll be motivated toward killing the guy who left them all for dead, they'll also be very likely to whine about how they lost.

Alternatively you could take a leaf out of Acanous' book... Whichever module he's using. Seriously, guy's got a crazy awesome Aboleth called Steve, who is destined to be crowned "King of the Doughnut World" eventually. He farms adventurers for their lewts, loots and lutes, and has yet to be defeated.
I must use something like this, so far they're after a Lich who infuriates them. :smallamused:

I want something like Steve, something that can cause intense rage in my players, with minimal effort... Okay, the Lich causes this a little. A lot actually. His name's Deathwind (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Eg4BqJJQtbw#t=580s). :smallbiggrin:


Wasn't thinking of that course at the time of naming, he still finds the Lich extra annoying though.

Amphetryon
2012-12-28, 11:32 AM
Killing them is to easy. Killing them is too gross a display of power. Maybe he doesn't want to show all of his cards from the start. Maybe he likes to toy with them, because they intrigue him for some reason.

Maybe he takes pleasure in breaking their will to fight on, perhaps to rebuild them as he would prefer (his elite minions). While they go and fight him, his armies are razing their hometowns. He's capturing lovers and friends to either execute or turn to his cause. He knew they would come for him, and he delights in giving them a choice, forcing the heroes to make a sacrifice to bring him down.

They are all geared up for a fight and he tells them what else is happening. They can stay and fight him for sure, or they can go attempt to save whatever is precious to them (assuming they don't think he's lying).

Maybe he thinks so much of himself that he doesn't even think it's worth his time to face off against the party. Send a few elite minions to take them out while he leaves on the back of some great evil beast and flies off to his citadel of doom.How does a person with this attitude survive long enough to become a BBEG? It sounds like he leaves behind a slew of enemies who have time to recover and a motive for revenge. At least one of them should be able to gather enough resources to take him out.

Doug Lampert
2012-12-28, 11:34 AM
Maybe he wants to ransom the party to someone else? Even the BBEG needs cash.

The last 20 years or so I've taken to trying to establish ransoms or something similar as a significant part of the backstory in most of my settings.

But it really needs to be set up as a standard and expected thing in advance. You can't just add it because you need a reason for this particular BBEG to not kill this particular party. Simply suddenly mentioning ransoms when everyone has ruthlessly killed all their foes as if there were no such thing till halfway through a campaign is one way to hang suspension of disbelief until dead.

If ransoms are well exstablished and standard, then PCs will reasonaby take action to make sure they have ransoms available and even a few extra magic items or a bunch of extra cash above their ransom stowed somewhere so they can partially reequip.

Ransoms (once established) give a cushion for defeat, a way to hurt the party while plausibly not killing them (and thus a real loss short of a TPK), and on the other side you have a lot more room for recurring mini-bosses and the like as NPCs who aren't clearly the campaign or story arc big bad will frequently not be killed. It provides an added reason for conflict in the game-world.

I find it's an almost pure gain to include such things in game.

Amphetryon
2012-12-28, 03:44 PM
If ransoms are well exstablished and standard, then PCs will reasonaby take action to make sure they have ransoms available and even a few extra magic items or a bunch of extra cash above their ransom stowed somewhere so they can partially reequip.

Ransoms (once established) give a cushion for defeat, a way to hurt the party while plausibly not killing them (and thus a real loss short of a TPK), and on the other side you have a lot more room for recurring mini-bosses and the like as NPCs who aren't clearly the campaign or story arc big bad will frequently not be killed. It provides an added reason for conflict in the game-world.

I find it's an almost pure gain to include such things in game.
You find that ransoming away the surplus cash/magic items that a party keeps specifically against this contingency "hurt[s] the party"? How does it hurt them? It's explicitly a surplus, explicitly saved against this very eventuality, by your own terms. It looks like all it does is re-balances WBL a bit.

SgtCarnage92
2012-12-29, 03:37 AM
How does a person with this attitude survive long enough to become a BBEG? It sounds like he leaves behind a slew of enemies who have time to recover and a motive for revenge. At least one of them should be able to gather enough resources to take him out.

Easy. The PCs are special. Everyone else is expendable and less than worthless to him unless they can A) serve his purpose or B) be used to entertain. He finds the PCs fit in the later territory. Breaking people isn't common practice for him, it's more of a fascination with what kind of punishment someone like the PCs could take before they give up and admit he's superior.

It's a symptom of either madness or arrogance that he thinks he can play with the PCs and have them not be a threat later. He didn't get where he is doing this kind of thing, it's a symptom of being at the top of the food chain (ie BBEG).

Amphetryon
2012-12-29, 12:17 PM
Easy. The PCs are special. Everyone else is expendable and less than worthless to him unless they can A) serve his purpose or B) be used to entertain. He finds the PCs fit in the later territory. Breaking people isn't common practice for him, it's more of a fascination with what kind of punishment someone like the PCs could take before they give up and admit he's superior.

It's a symptom of either madness or arrogance that he thinks he can play with the PCs and have them not be a threat later. He didn't get where he is doing this kind of thing, it's a symptom of being at the top of the food chain (ie BBEG).

I'm glad that particular cliché works at your table. I've not seen success with it in many a year, at many different tables, because the Players found it to be, well, cliché.

SgtCarnage92
2012-12-29, 03:52 PM
I'm glad that particular cliché works at your table. I've not seen success with it in many a year, at many different tables, because the Players found it to be, well, cliché.

Eh, it does seem a bit forced doesn't it? *le sigh*

Cookiemobsta
2012-12-29, 07:50 PM
Attach a lovable NPC to the party.
Give party magical macguffin that is very powerful but unstable -- killing the person who uses it.

Fight BBEG.
Party is about to die
Lovable NPC uses macguffin, driving away BBEG
Lovable NPC dies

Everyone cries
Feels all around.
DM of the year award
Spielberg creates movie based on your campaign

Fin

Doxkid
2012-12-30, 12:03 PM
*More useful alive than dead (Collected artifacts for him and such)
*They're better than the troops he already has.
*A deal with someone powerful

Jay R
2012-12-30, 07:42 PM
A. If they are stupid enough to attack somebody they cannot defeat, then why are you trying to keep them alive?

You can't protect the terminally stupid. They're usually too clever.

B. Because he needs seven living kidneys for a spell he's planning to cast next week.

Slipperychicken
2012-12-30, 08:43 PM
A. If they are stupid enough to attack somebody they know they cannot defeat, then why are you trying to keep them alive?


FTFY. words

Amphetryon
2012-12-30, 09:02 PM
B. Because he needs seven living kidneys for a spell he's planning to cast next week.The BoVD spell Preserve Organ should suffice.

Jay R
2012-12-31, 10:43 AM
I wrote: "If they are stupid enough to attack somebody they cannot defeat, then why are you trying to keep them alive?"

Slipperychicken changed its meaning as follows.



A. If they are stupid enough to attack somebody they know they cannot defeat, then why are you trying to keep them alive?
FTFY.

That counts as a "fix" only on the assumption that it's not the party's responsibility to gather information before attacking. If they cannot beat him, and they attack him before finding out the measure of his strength, than this is not a party worth keeping alive, and the original question is moot.




B. Because he needs seven living kidneys for a spell he's planning to cast next week.
The BoVD spell Preserve Organ should suffice.

Since the DM is looking for reasons not to kill them, the BBEG clearly wouldn't have access to that spell.

Doug Lampert
2012-12-31, 11:07 AM
You find that ransoming away the surplus cash/magic items that a party keeps specifically against this contingency "hurt[s] the party"? How does it hurt them? It's explicitly a surplus, explicitly saved against this very eventuality, by your own terms. It looks like all it does is re-balances WBL a bit.

Who says the surplus they use to reequip is even 5% as valuable as what they lost?

Who says I adjust how much I give them based on how often they lose? They can adventure with less stuff if they need to ransom.

Water_Bear
2012-12-31, 01:44 PM
That counts as a "fix" only on the assumption that it's not the party's responsibility to gather information before attacking. If they cannot beat him, and they attack him before finding out the measure of his strength, than this is not a party worth keeping alive, and the original question is moot.

If PCs acted only on in-game information that would be true, but the metagame information the Players get also needs to be taken into account. Metagaming is impossible to avoid and often beneficial, and the default metagame assumptions of a D&D-style Adventure Game make it hard to realize a bad guy is too powerful.

The enemies DMs choose for the players, random encounter or plot, are typically meant to be beaten and are thus usually built to be beatable. The way action economies work, groups of PCs usually can defeat single enemies fairly handily even if they are slightly higher level. Many, if not most, DMs will fudge rolls to keep a party alive in a desperate fight or give them the means to be ressurected afterwards, so the risk is relatively low. Quite a few DMs dislike non-violent conflict resolution, because they feel it spoils the battles they set up or is "too easy". There are other factors too, but the main point is that unless the Players know you run a lethal game with unusually strong enemies before-hand, they'll tend to fall into the default assumptions where fighting is usually the best choice.


Since the DM is looking for reasons not to kill them, the BBEG clearly wouldn't have access to that spell.

No one is saying the DM can't create a contrivance to save the party, but the point of this thread is to find dramatic or rational reasons rather than arbitrarily limiting the BBEGs power.

Hopeless
2012-12-31, 03:56 PM
Plausible deniability?

Seriously leave them unconscious have an ally of his they don't know about "find" them and after waking them up reveal he killed the BBEG who turned into a doppleganger and to really mess them up reveal he found the guy they thought was their nemesis tied up in a nearby room who has no idea what was going on.

And then leave evidence pointing them towards someone else whose job is to arrange for them to target enemies of the BBEG until they've eliminated enough rivals that he can reveal the truth but only once he sent them after a dragon ally so he could "appear" to finish them off but leave himself the opportunity to escape if they manage to kill his ally...

Of course by this point he has sufficient evidence to pin the murders of his adversaries and have their own people hunt them down for their "evil" and hopefully leaving them with no idea of who is really behind it all well until they catch up with the "ally" who rescued them and get him to admit the truth of course...

Maybe a little too much though...:smallwink:

Amphetryon
2012-12-31, 08:57 PM
Who says the surplus they use to reequip is even 5% as valuable as what they lost?

Who says I adjust how much I give them based on how often they lose? They can adventure with less stuff if they need to ransom.

As you originally explained the surplus, it read very much as if the surplus were the portion which was given away in the ransom.

The WBL charts - which indicate a baseline of loot, primarily in the form of magic items, which Characters should have at a given level - say you adjust how much you're giving them, or that you're deliberately gimping them unless the surplus is the portion they gave away in the ransom, increasing the likelihood that their next encounter(s) kill them because they're under-equipped; if you're doing it that way, you're having the BBEG kill the party, using a proxy. And, of course, if that's the portion they gave away, you've simply rebalanced their WBL to baseline.

Slipperychicken
2013-01-03, 03:12 AM
That counts as a "fix" only on the assumption that it's not the party's responsibility to gather information before attacking. If they cannot beat him, and they attack him before finding out the measure of his strength, than this is not a party worth keeping alive, and the original question is moot.


It can be very hard for players to tell whether their PCs can beat a villain or not, even if they do intelligence operations, which PCs don't always have time for.

Especially if the DM chooses to hype up his strength, there are several messages the players can reasonably take from it. Either the PCs are intended to beat the villain in their present state and he's just strong relative to other NPCs, or the PCs supposed to level up/find a mcguffin/advance the plot before fighting him, or the PCs are never supposed to fight him at all. All three suggest very different coursed of action, and are prone to miscommunication.

TuggyNE
2013-01-03, 07:20 AM
Especially if the DM chooses to hype up his strength, there are several messages the players can reasonably take from it. Either the PCs are intended to beat the villain in their present state and he's just strong relative to other NPCs, or the PCs supposed to level up/find a mcguffin/advance the plot before fighting him, or the PCs are never supposed to fight him at all. All three suggest very different coursed of action, and are prone to miscommunication.

That's actually due to a more general problem, I think: game designers, module writers, and DMs all tend to have a tough time calibrating the magnitude of their descriptions. Generally, you want the kobolds of your first planned encounter to seem like a genuine threat, at least to the frightened villagers... but how do you make sure the dragon in the other direction (planned for eight or ten levels later) sounds that much scarier? Similarly, after the fifth or sixth "legendary blade of something-or-other", the superlatives start wearing a bit thin. (It gets pretty bad in DDO, for example, where there are level 25 adventures whose names and descriptions sound like a fair challenge for a level 4 group, and level 7 adventures whose descriptions might give a level 15 party pause.)

hymer
2013-01-03, 08:45 AM
Very true, Tug.
Even if you could calibrate it perfectly, would you even want to? Can description be that precise? Or if it's that important, and you're willing to let the players meta-game by having them judge by their own experience rather than that of their characters (or that of NPCs), how about just telling them that this is beyond them?

I usually try to give the PCs fair warning if they seem to be heading for something I know they can't handle, or which is so dangerous they ought to think twice. I try to come up with something narratively pretty, but sometimes the grizzled soldier NPC in the inn has got to tell them they're in over their heads.
If they want to go on then, that's their decision. After all, they might just try to scout, or they could get lucky or smart.

Slipperychicken
2013-01-03, 11:08 AM
I usually try to give the PCs fair warning if they seem to be heading for something I know they can't handle, or which is so dangerous they ought to think twice. I try to come up with something narratively pretty, but sometimes the grizzled soldier NPC in the inn has got to tell them they're in over their heads.
If they want to go on then, that's their decision. After all, they might just try to scout, or they could get lucky or smart.

That too can be easily come across as "This guy doesn't have faith in you. It's a challenge, and you are to prove him wrong".

hymer
2013-01-03, 11:54 AM
Indeed. Even if he's been right on the money so far, if one player is in a reckless mood and takes the lead, there's virtually nothing you can do to stop them. :smallsmile:

Amphetryon
2013-01-03, 12:24 PM
That too can be easily come across as "This guy doesn't have faith in you. It's a challenge, and you are to prove him wrong".

It also all too easily can come across as Voice of God, with the DM appearing to want to herd the PCs back onto the proper track - as I've specifically heard Players comment when such hints are dropped by NPCs.

hymer
2013-01-03, 12:45 PM
Which is why it is to be avoided, albeit not at all cost. If I really can't come up with anything else, I do this. I'd rather the players felt I was being a tad meta than I was being a tad reckless with the PCs' lives.
Incidentally, I haven't had a complaint about too much railroading for about ten years now. And back then, I was defended by another player.