Help Me Tweak My Rogue (first time D&D player)

[honeybunch]

I'm a first time player, joining into a new campaign. I've pieced together my character via the PHB, and various internet resources (the SRD, forum posts, etc.). I think I've got a pretty decent build so far, but I'm afraid I'm overlooking something. That's why I'm making this thread.

For anyone interested in offering any advice, here's my character sheet (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=483035). It's a 28 point buy for abilities, and I can use anything from any 3.5e Wizards of the Coast books. So feel free to recommend anything from any of those. If my DM has access to it or I can find enough information about it online, I can use it. All characters start up with up to 150 gold worth of equipment.

I'm pretty set on playing a human rogue, but I guess I could go half-elf if there was some good reason to do so. I've already got a loose background in mind for my character, starting with her growing up pretty rough in a middle sized human city. Probably she just had dirt poor (and possibly neglectful) parents rather than being an orphan, just because I feel the orphan angle is a bit of a fantasy cliche. Eventually she grew into a pretty competent thief, still in that city, and was living a fairly comfortable life. Not too long ago her lair got busted into by the guards, and she wound up fleeing the city with whatever she could grab quickly, steal or scrounge up on the way to wherever the game is actually going to start up. I figure she's fairly practical and rather brusque most of the time. I've been designing my character in a way so that the mechanics of the role don't conflict with that background and personality.

The other party members are going to be a human sorcerer, a ranger or druid with a focus on his wolf companion, and a fourth party member who hasn't decided on anything yet. I figure I can work with the wolf to get flanking bonuses.

I asked the DM, and he says there's probably going to be a fairly even split between combat and non-combat in the game. From what I've heard I might not be as useful in combat as a fighter or other combat oriented classes, but I definitely want to pull my own weight.

I've taken a bunch of skills, but I still wouldn't mind having a few more points to put in stuff like Appraise or Diplomacy, since both of those would be useful for fencing stolen items, or even Bluff. I've also heard Use Magic Device is good to have. I've got a ton of light or negligible weight items that I'm carrying around, in case they come in handy. Right now I've got Two Weapon Fighting for my first feat, and plan to take Weapon Finesse once I get the required basic attack bonus, but being human entitles me to a spare feat that I haven't quite figured out yet. I think I also have a spare language, but I'll probably choose that based on my background rather than utility. Other than that, I'm just looking for other ways to improve the character while remaining true to my idea of her background and personality.

Thanks for any suggestions you can provide.

[Chilingsworth]

Well, for starters, you want to max out your ranks in search, rather than having no ranks there. Also, you might want to see if you can scrounge up some more points to put into Con.

[honeybunch]

Well, for starters, you want to max out your ranks in search, rather than having no ranks there. Also, you might want to see if you can scrounge up some more points to put into Con.

First of all, thanks for replying! This is definitely the kind of thing I'm looking for.

I was under the impression that in the vast majority of situations where I might need search, I could take 10 or even 20, making it less essential to actually invest points in the skill. Is that wrong?

You're probably right about my Constitution. I was overlooking the fact that the modifier is applied to my HP every time I gain a new hit die. I had been thinking it would just provide a one time health bonus, which would be a lot less important. I'm having a hard time deciding which ability I'd downgrade to buff my Con, though. Any suggestions?

[Chilingsworth]

Even if you could take 10 or 20 to search for traps (I know my DM doesn't allow it,) the minimum DC to find a trap is probably going to be 21 (for a CR 1 trap.) So, taking 10 is useless with your search modifier of +2 and even taking 20 will only let you find CR 1 or 2 traps.

Also, welcome to the Game! :smallbiggrin:

[Chilingsworth]

As for your Con... I'd actually mine your dex for it. I know it's painful to even consider, but if you drop your dex down to 14, it will allow you to up you con to 14, or both your con and cha to 12 each. Or you could drop your Wis down to ten (or even eight) (of course, that could end up biting you since it would hurt your will save.)

Remember, Cha improves your use magic device, which is a skill you'll definately want to invest in. Actually, I'd drop my ranks in use rope and sense motive in favor of search and use magic device. I've never found myself missing the ability to effectively use ropes, and you can always invest in sense motive later.

[herrhauptmann]

Ditch the intimidate for spot. Finding people sneaking up on you is more important than scaring someone into cooperating with you briefly.

How about the feat craven? Add your level to your sneak attack. And it multiplies on crits.
Combat reflexes might be useful too.

Check out skill tricks in complete scoundrel.
You can't take them yet, but they're useful.

[Gandariel]

Nothing to add, really.

Just remember to carry a bunch of alchemist's fire and acid flasks, because if you get a sneak attack with them, the extra damage is of the same type! (There are enemies more susceptible to various damage types, with this little trick you can deal a lot of acid and fire damage when needed)

[Gwendol]

You could stick with human, or pick up Strongheart halfling (they get the bonus feat at level 1 as well). Also for more feats you could consider taking a Flaw: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm
to get even more feats.

I really, strongly, urge you to get more points in CON, and to try and get your CHA up. Honestly, consider dropping both STR and WIS to 10, and get those points into CHA and CON.

Perception and stealth skills are your top priorities right now, as you don't have the hit points or the AC to last long in combat. And since you can't get weapon finesse just yet, you will want to use ranged combat (mainly) until you can. The thrown weapon advice given (acid, fire, tanglefoot bags, thunderstones, etc) is golden.

You want to use TWF, which can be very efficient for rogues, if you build for it. The quickest way for you to get weapon finesse is taking a level of Swashbuckler next (they get the feat as a bonus), then keep alternating between rogue and swashbuckler levels until you are level 6, at which point you take the Daring Outlaw feat and can stack Swashbuckler and Rogue levels for determining sneak attack damage and AC bonus. After that point you can go all rogue if you want to, or look at a different path.

[honeybunch]

I made almost all the changes suggested by you guys. Thanks a lot. I'm definitely a bit sorry to see that +3 Dex modifier go, but it probably has strengthened my character as a whole a bit. I now have all my abilities at at least a 12.

I looked into craven, and while the bonuses are apparently great (I wouldn't actually know, but the people in the thread seemed to think so), I don't really like the flavor of it from a roleplaying perspective. I might go for it anyway, but I'm a bit torn. Also, a lot of the people in the thread were even saying it's broken, and to be honest I don't want to be too good in combat, relative to the other PCs (who I think are all also new to D&D). Seems like it might make it unfun for them. However, I've heard that rogues and the like get outclassed by magic users in later levels, so maybe it's something I could take when I start to feel I'm lagging behind?

As for the alchemist's fire and acid flasks, that definitely sounds like a good idea for a little way down the road. Even though ten gold is probably a paltry amount of money in the scheme of things, I just don't have any gold to spare at this point.

EDIT: Thanks for the reply Gwendol. I was actually just about to go to sleep, so I'll check out the stuff you talked about tomorrow. Sounds like it could be good, though.

[Gwendol]

Craven is not broken: it's a balanced feat for one, making you vulnerable to scare tactics (which is no small thing). My TWF rogue has it, and since we're fighting mostly undead this far it has been but a liability. Once I get penetrating strike however... payback time!

I'd say everyone gets outclassed in some definition of the word at nearly all levels by magic users, but that shouldn't stop you from playing rogue!

[Togo]

Hm...

First off, the advice I will give is mechanical. If you want to keep something the way it is for roleplay reasons, that's probably not a bad idea.

Stats:

Wisdom doesn't help you much. It boosts your will saves, and some skill checks. I'd suggest selling it down to 8 or so.
Meanwhile dex boosts your initiative and thus chance of sneak attacking in the first round, AC, more skills, reflex saves, and to hit with missle weapons.
Strength helps with to hit and damage
Charisma helps you with a few skills. Take a Cha that fits your concept of your character. Mechanically, you don't need it.
Con helps your fort saves and hp. That's good, but I wouldn't sell down your dex to get it.

Personally, I'd do something like sell wis down to 8 and strength down to 10, and spend the points on dex.

Feats
Basically, you have lots of skills and sneak attack. Sneak attack is bonus damage per attack, so the more often you attack, the better. Hence two-weapon fighting.

Another approach (instead of or as well as) is to go for rapid shot. That would involve taking point blank shot now, and rapid shot later on, for more attacks at range. It's much easier to sneak attack in hand to hand, but ranged combat keeps you out combat, which is important because rogues are frankly a bit fragile. There will be combats where you don't want to get close.

Another good feat for you is Weapon finesse. Take that, and you get a big bonus to hit, and can sell down your strength for more dex. Strength is still good for damage, but sneak attack will make +1 damage irrelevent before long. You can't take it until 3rd level, but if you plan to do so, it might be worth selling down your strength now.

Craven is a very good feat. Rogue is not a very combat heavy class. I don't think you'll outshine the other characters, because the chances are high you won't be able to use sneak attack properly unless they set up the situation for you.

Improved intiative is also useful, because all monsters are flat-footed until they take their first action in combat. Carry around a bow, and then if you win intiative, you can sneak attack first turn. With a +7 or+8 for initative rolls, you'll be going first a lot.

Skills
Spot and listen are both good, but the ranger may be better than you at them. If you can, take the one he isn't taking.

Search is very important, since it's used to find traps. You usually can't take 20 on such a check, since failing to find a trap will often set it off.

Use Magic Device is handy, but at the level you're at, it won't see much use.


Combat hints:

The dilemma of the two-weapon rogue is that you want to get into a flanking position with a monster, and then full attack. You can't move and full attack, so at some point you're going to have to move and stand next to a rampaging monster, at which point your comparatively poor AC and hit points make you a fragile target.

So, in practice, you end up using ranged weapons a lot of the time. First turn certainly because you're going first, there's noone to flank with yet, and the monster is flat-footed so you don't need the flank to get sneak attack.

One last thought - you'll need better armour. I know you probably can't afford it yet, but master work studded leather or a master work chain shirt are well worth considering, and eventually a mithril breastplate or similar can be excellent.

Have fun, and good luck!

[Gandariel]

Seconded.

Also, as someone mentioned, Rogue 4/ Swashbuckler 16 is a great build (take Daring Outlaw at level 6 and boost your Int. str, wis and cha can be lowered)

And, remember that acid/fire thing, it will be useful to you later on! (if you really don't have any money, remember that you can use a torch as an improvised weapon to deal 1d3 fire damage)

[sambouchah]

With a rogue I usually put as much as I can get into dexterity without leaving all my other abilities useless. Drop strength by a point or two(depending on how often you will be using climb, swim, jump) and take weapon finesse as soon as it is available.

Hope that helps!

[Blackhawk748]

this is simply my suggestion, in a 28 point buy id prbly not go TWF which it looks like your doing, it is good but i would go range as in my experience its just worked better as you can have a good Dex score and almost completely scrap Strength, also i highly recommend Crossbow Sniper, sadly i cant remember the book its in, but you add half your Dex modifier to crossbow damage.

PS, have fun shanking everything :smallbiggrin:

[Chilingsworth]

Crossbow sniper is in PHB2, I believe.

[Ryulin18]

Just say screw it, be a ranged brain box. All the good ranged ideas are as above or here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233).

The carrying and damage are the barbarians problem. trap locating, trap disabling, room checking, first striking, dilligent study, social skills, bounty raising, loot finding, and killing people are your problem. So heres my usual rogue stats for 28 point buy;

STR 10
DEX 16 + 2 racial
CON 8 (because if you're good, you don't take damage)
INT 15 (raise at 4th)
WIS 10 (wizards never see you coming)
CHA 14

The point of this build is that you play smart, like any rogue would. Be smarter than the rest of your players and the DM, skim off the top of their profits, be first in the room and last out with the heaviest coin purse. If their characters don't know they're being cheated, they can't complain. Use their money to buy yourself some sweet s**t, cheap because you're a diplomacy master and the merchant isn't that good!!

Go be awesome! you have my best wishes, all 4 of them...because I can bluff check dieties, because I'm a good rogue.

[Crake]

Even if you could take 10 or 20 to search for traps (I know my DM doesn't allow it,) the minimum DC to find a trap is probably going to be 21 (for a CR 1 trap.) So, taking 10 is useless with your search modifier of +2 and even taking 20 will only let you find CR 1 or 2 traps.

Also, welcome to the Game! :smallbiggrin:

Something that should be mentioned: You cant take 20 on skill checks that have a penalty for failure, which in the case of searching for traps means setting off the trap by accident if you fail by too much. Taking 10 is perfectly fine, but as its been mentioned, with a mere +2, you aren't gonna find much on a 10.

[Gnome Alone]

This is good optimization advice, but take it with a grain of salt. I'd say play your (first!) character as you envisioned it, a scrappy street urchin dagger-stabbin' rogue. If you don't like Craven for RP reasons, don't take it - it's not REQUIRED.

[DangerDanger]

The handbook will help you a lot in terms of builds and feats.

In my experience as a rogue, having just about anything to everything in your pack helps out a lot. Especially at low levels, spells don't solve everything.

This (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4400.0) could give you an idea of what to blow your earnings on.

Combat-wise, cross bow is your friend. I usually go a bit CQC with mine early on, having a dagger at hand in case something gets in my face too fast.

ALSO, poison (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0) is your best friend. 40g can get you stunning stuff. Put that **** on arrows. Rule the day.

[honeybunch]

Wow, thanks for all the advice, and sorry for taking so long to reply. I've been busy with various Christmas related preparations, and haven't had a lot of time for the internet or D&D.


You could stick with human, or pick up Strongheart halfling (they get the bonus feat at level 1 as well). Also for more feats you could consider taking a Flaw: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm
to get even more feats.

What book(s) would I find flaws in? I'm definitely interested in taking one or two of them, but the internet isn't offering many options that aren't homebrew, and the PHB doesn't have anything about them at all. If I knew a book with a bunch of flaws in it, I might be able to actually find one that suits my character.


I really, strongly, urge you to get more points in CON, and to try and get your CHA up. Honestly, consider dropping both STR and WIS to 10, and get those points into CHA and CON.

From what I see in the PHB, charisma doesn't seem that essential to me, outside of a few skills which I can put points into. And even there, my charisma modifier doesn't seem like it would make much of a difference. Am I missing something?


You want to use TWF, which can be very efficient for rogues, if you build for it. The quickest way for you to get weapon finesse is taking a level of Swashbuckler next (they get the feat as a bonus), then keep alternating between rogue and swashbuckler levels until you are level 6, at which point you take the Daring Outlaw feat and can stack Swashbuckler and Rogue levels for determining sneak attack damage and AC bonus. After that point you can go all rogue if you want to, or look at a different path.

That's interesting. Hopefully I have access to whatever book swashbuckler is in. What other multiclass options would be viable choices? I had been considering going rogue/fighter at some point. Is that a decent multiclass choice?


Craven is not broken: it's a balanced feat for one, making you vulnerable to scare tactics (which is no small thing). My TWF rogue has it, and since we're fighting mostly undead this far it has been but a liability. Once I get penetrating strike however... payback time!

Hmm. Alright. If I'm going to take it, I'd probably have to it either now or sometime after level six, since I'm planning to use my level three feat on Weapon Finesse.


I'd say everyone gets outclassed in some definition of the word at nearly all levels by magic users, but that shouldn't stop you from playing rogue!

Well, that's been my attitude so far. I'm just going to play in the way I think will be the most fun.


Wisdom doesn't help you much. It boosts your will saves, and some skill checks. I'd suggest selling it down to 8 or so.

Yeah, that probably makes sense. The small skill boost probably isn't worth the attribute points. Thanks for pointing that out.


Meanwhile dex boosts your initiative and thus chance of sneak attacking in the first round, AC, more skills, reflex saves, and to hit with missle weapons.

That's... a very good point. I guess keeping it at sixteen might make the most sense after all.


Strength helps with to hit and damage

Well, I was thinking I'd be relying on sneak attacks to do most of my damage, supplemented by some ranged attacks. I also plan to take Weapon Finesse to eliminate the strength factor for to hit. Is that a workable plan? If it is, then I'd think strength would be a pretty unimportant stat for me, right?


Charisma helps you with a few skills. Take a Cha that fits your concept of your character. Mechanically, you don't need it.
Con helps your fort saves and hp. That's good, but I wouldn't sell down your dex to get it.

Alright. Well, I don't see my character as especially charismatic, so I might drop that a little. I think I'll try to bump my Con up a bit.


Personally, I'd do something like sell wis down to 8 and strength down to 10, and spend the points on dex.

Yeah, this sounds like a good plan, although it means I'll need to travel lighter. Still, long term it's probably a good idea.


Basically, you have lots of skills and sneak attack. Sneak attack is bonus damage per attack, so the more often you attack, the better. Hence two-weapon fighting.

Another approach (instead of or as well as) is to go for rapid shot. That would involve taking point blank shot now, and rapid shot later on, for more attacks at range. It's much easier to sneak attack in hand to hand, but ranged combat keeps you out combat, which is important because rogues are frankly a bit fragile. There will be combats where you don't want to get close.

It was always my intention to play a primarily melee character. Unless I just can't cut it that way, that's what I'm going to stick with.


Another good feat for you is Weapon finesse. Take that, and you get a big bonus to hit, and can sell down your strength for more dex. Strength is still good for damage, but sneak attack will make +1 damage irrelevent before long. You can't take it until 3rd level, but if you plan to do so, it might be worth selling down your strength now.

Yeah, that was actually my plan. Glad you think it will work.


Craven is a very good feat. Rogue is not a very combat heavy class. I don't think you'll outshine the other characters, because the chances are high you won't be able to use sneak attack properly unless they set up the situation for you.

Improved intiative is also useful, because all monsters are flat-footed until they take their first action in combat. Carry around a bow, and then if you win intiative, you can sneak attack first turn. With a +7 or+8 for initative rolls, you'll be going first a lot.

...I've got a sling. Will that work?

I'll probably pick up a bow at some point, but for now my sling is probably going to have to be my main ranged option.


Spot and listen are both good, but the ranger may be better than you at them. If you can, take the one he isn't taking.

I'll see if I can find out what his skill distribution is.


Search is very important, since it's used to find traps. You usually can't take 20 on such a check, since failing to find a trap will often set it off.

Use Magic Device is handy, but at the level you're at, it won't see much use.

Should I be spending points in it now so that I can make use of it later? Does it affect most magical items, or can I just use most of them even without it?

Basically, is not having enough points in UMD going to stop me from using a bag of holding or similar generic magical item?


The dilemma of the two-weapon rogue is that you want to get into a flanking position with a monster, and then full attack. You can't move and full attack, so at some point you're going to have to move and stand next to a rampaging monster, at which point your comparatively poor AC and hit points make you a fragile target.

So, in practice, you end up using ranged weapons a lot of the time. First turn certainly because you're going first, there's noone to flank with yet, and the monster is flat-footed so you don't need the flank to get sneak attack.

Well, I'm carrying around a lot of items in hopes that I can find other ways to make myself useful, both in and out of combat. For example, I intend to bring along marbles to allow me to get sneak attacks. I've got a bunch of other stuff, although I may have to leave some of it on my donkey if I'm going to lower my strength.


One last thought - you'll need better armour. I know you probably can't afford it yet, but master work studded leather or a master work chain shirt are well worth considering, and eventually a mithril breastplate or similar can be excellent.

I'll keep that in mind.


Have fun, and good luck!

Will do. Thanks for all your help.


And, remember that acid/fire thing, it will be useful to you later on! (if you really don't have any money, remember that you can use a torch as an improvised weapon to deal 1d3 fire damage)

Yeah, I'm definitely planning to acquire various poisons and other useful tools.

And right now I actually have a bullseye lantern. So the torch thing may be out.


With a rogue I usually put as much as I can get into dexterity without leaving all my other abilities useless. Drop strength by a point or two(depending on how often you will be using climb, swim, jump) and take weapon finesse as soon as it is available.

Hope that helps!

Well, I was intending to follow the acrobatic rogue archetype, at least somewhat. I probably don't want to drop strength below ten, both due to that and because I want to be able to carry something.


this is simply my suggestion, in a 28 point buy id prbly not go TWF which it looks like your doing, it is good but i would go range as in my experience its just worked better as you can have a good Dex score and almost completely scrap Strength, also i highly recommend Crossbow Sniper, sadly i cant remember the book its in, but you add half your Dex modifier to crossbow damage.

I'm sure that's a good build, but I want to try playing a melee rogue. If it turns out badly, so be it, but I'm going to give it a shot.


PS, have fun shanking everything :smallbiggrin:

Most definitely.


Just say screw it, be a ranged brain box. All the good ranged ideas are as above or here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233).

The carrying and damage are the barbarians problem. trap locating, trap disabling, room checking, first striking, dilligent study, social skills, bounty raising, loot finding, and killing people are your problem. So heres my usual rogue stats for 28 point buy;

Unfortunately I'm not too interested in playing a primarily ranged rogue. Thanks nonetheless!


Something that should be mentioned: You cant take 20 on skill checks that have a penalty for failure, which in the case of searching for traps means setting off the trap by accident if you fail by too much. Taking 10 is perfectly fine, but as its been mentioned, with a mere +2, you aren't gonna find much on a 10.

Yeah, I realized that putting no points in search was a mistake thanks to Chilingsworth's advice. Already have four points in there on my updated character sheet, I think.


This is good optimization advice, but take it with a grain of salt. I'd say play your (first!) character as you envisioned it, a scrappy street urchin dagger-stabbin' rogue. If you don't like Craven for RP reasons, don't take it - it's not REQUIRED.

Hahaha, yeah. Really I'm just trying to figure out how to make my dagger-stabbin' rogue the stabbiest possible. So far everyone's been a lot of help with that.


In my experience as a rogue, having just about anything to everything in your pack helps out a lot. Especially at low levels, spells don't solve everything.

If you look at my character sheet, you'll see that I'm already trying to follow that creed, even if I don't really have the resources to carry as much around with me as I'd like.


This (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4400.0) could give you an idea of what to blow your earnings on.

I actually have both that thread and Shax's Indispensable Haversack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101) bookmarked. I'm really only able to use the cheapest and lightest items from each of those lists, but I'll work my way up.


Combat-wise, cross bow is your friend. I usually go a bit CQC with mine early on, having a dagger at hand in case something gets in my face too fast.

Unfortunately, I really do intend to play mostly melee (as much as I can, at least). I'll certainly pick up a crossbow at some point, though.


ALSO, poison (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0) is your best friend. 40g can get you stunning stuff. Put that **** on arrows. Rule the day.

I'll be sure to pick that up... when I actually have 40g to spare.

[herrhauptmann]

Flaws are on the SRD.
If you do poisons, check out ravages and afflictions. BoED. They're diseases and poisons that hurt even demons and devils immune to regular diseases and poisons.

[Gildedragon]

I'd say you don't need: shortword, rapier, and dagger. Any two of these does fine. I am partial to the sword and dagger because of ToB, but that's not here nor there.
You might want to have a long or cross bow. You CAN sneak attack at a distance, and until you get weapon finnesse you'll be hitting a lot more.
I will echo the sentiment that UMD is your friend, and your whole party's friend. It allows the spellcasters to economize their actions and gives you access to lifesavers.

[Phaederkiel]

First: let me hint at the changeling. If you are dead set on the human, that is absolutely okay (humans are fine), but Changelings are FANTASTIC.

There is a substitution Lvl for changeling rogues, which is taken first lvl.
(which means you CAN take it, not needed, even if you go changeling)
You lose trapfinding (which is easily regained. Factotum for instance is just a better rogue and gives it too) but you gain the ability to take 10 on a lot of social skills, and you gain 10 plus int x 4 skillpoints, instead of 8plus int x4 on first lvl. Which is pretty big.

Even if you don't take the substitution lvl, changelings are really cool. They can shapeshift into anything of the same body type (only regarding looks, though), making them EXCELLENT spies and great role playing characters.


__________________________________________________ _

Some mechanical advice on your Sheet:

If you are a human, you gain another feat at lvl 1. You should have 2.

So, craven is cool, but deals too little dmg on first lvl. Take it at lvl 3, where it will start to show. edit: take a flaw and take it now. knowledge devotion is available at lvl 3.

Improved Initiative is really good. It is the one roll you will ALWAYS roll, and the bonus is relevantly big.

Another top contender is "Knowledge devotion".
This feat gives you relevant boni to damage and Hit based on how well you can identify a monster. It gives at least plus 1, but can easily give plus 3 even when not optimized. And you get to know things, which is fun.

unfortunately, you can only have it from lvl 3 onward

Just put 1 point crossclass in some Knowledge skills (nature, Religion, arcana being the most important, then Dungeoneering), and get local to 5 (this identifies all humanoids) on lvl 2. Get the skilltrick "Collector of stories", which gives you plus 5 to all monster-identifying.

Since KD gives you one knowledge of your choice as a class skill, choose something your dm tends to throw at you a lot. Nature is probably best.


Believe me, this feat is one of the shankiest i've ever seen!



Darkstalker is really important later on. It gives you the ability to out-hide opponents with special senses, which would automatically detect you otherwise.

quickdraw could be interesting (or buy crystals of it, they are in the Magic Item Compendium), if you want to be able to chuck daggers at opponents.
This mitigates the full atack /flanking problem the rogue tends to have.
Just throw daggers at people after winning ini.

__________________________________________

Two more things: ask your DM if you can retrain feats. If you can, great. take skillfocus:basketweaving, or anything not actively detrimental, for as many flaws as you can get through. Retrain on lvl 2 and 3 into Weapon finesse and Knowledge devotion.

and look at the factotum. Seriously, these guys are really good.
(oh, and they have a feat called font of inspiration which is really well hidden, yet makes the class work).

Have fun!

[Gwendol]

Swashbuckler is in complete warrior, and it's a full BAB, D12 HD class, so in principle you shouldn't need fighter levels unless you are feat starved.
Since you plan on using weapon finesse, take swashbuckler next and get the feat for free (instead of waiting until level 3), and use a rapier/dagger combo (it's good to be able to deal different types of damage to overcome DR). The rapier is finessable, a longsword isn't.

[Ryulin18]

Go and find a copy of dragon magazine #275 (http://www.scribd.com/doc/39900718/d20-D-amp-D-New-Exotic-Weapons-Dragon-Magazine-275) and find something called the crescent knife, I can't state this hard enough.

It's only 1d3, natural 20 for a crit and only x2 crit...but every attack is two attacks. You've just doubled your bab and sneak attack for one feat.

[ShurikVch]

ALSO, poison (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0) is your best friend. 40g can get you stunning stuff. Put that **** on arrows. Rule the day.

Ahem... It looks like they missed the poison of molydeus...

This poison:
1. can ignore poison immunity, unless it's from "Con -"
2. cause not Con damage, but Con drain

Also,
A creature reduced to 0 Constitution by this poison immediately transforms into a mane. Only a miracle or wish can reverse this transformation.
Farewell, tarrasque... :smallsmile:

[Phaederkiel]

@ryulin:

No sane DM will ever allow such a thing to work.

For the price of one feat and some money double your attacks?
You'd be nearly as good as a wizard...