[PF] 8 PB ideas?

[GreenSerpent]

Greetings, everyone.

To cut a long story short, I've been invited to a friend of a friend's Pathfinder game. It's 8 PB (not so good) and as far as I've been told Human-only (okay).
8 PB screams SPELLCASTER at me. Any interesting suggestions for a martial build that could work?

(lowering stats to raise PB is allowed)

Thanks!

[docnessuno]

An spellcaster works nicely:
Str 8, Dex 12, Con 12
Casting stat 16+2 racial
Other mental stats 8

An oracle adding Cha to AC could even dump dex to 7, offsetting it with improved initiative, and raise Con to 14 and Cha to 17+2.

[ThiagoMartell]

Synthesist Summoner ftw

[docnessuno]

Synthesist Summoner ftw

Summoner, as a whole, might be TOO good to be playable in a 8PB mid-low OP enviroment. Unless you want the party mundanes to cry.

[gr8artist]

I believe he's asking for a martial character, not a spellcaster.
If so, my advise is to stick to something with high dex, and take the dervish dance feat or get an agile weapon (either will add your dex to damage instead of strength). Play a rogue, so you still get plenty of damage, the high dex lets you get an extra sneak attack in, and rogues are really good in PF.
You could logistically dump strength (get a BOH early), cha (who needs it?), wis (cloak of resistance), and maybe even int (human skill points + favored class if you have a decent con). Grab some mythril armor and find a caster to give you cat's grace, and leave everything in the dust. If you keep int at 13 or more, you can take combat expertise and make sure you don't get hit. (dex+dodge feat+expertise+fight defensively=(21 AC without armor at level 4)). You won't land many hits that way, but you can always aid another for the barbarian.
Other options include a cavalier (order of the sword lets you add your mount's strength to your own for damage (cross-class with barbarian to give you and your pet rage)0, paladin (LOH on yourself as swift action), or the world's worst monk.

[grarrrg]

X stat to Y bonus thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732&highlight=stat)
It does have some Pathfinder stuff sprinkled in, check the bottom of the second post for a PF only section.
It's a little out of date, but has the main stuff.

Your best bet would be to replace DEX with CHA, and drop your DEX as low as you dare.
This can be done with a Feat (Noble Scion), 1 level of Oracle (Nature or Lore).
This moves your Initiative, AC, and either Ref-Save-OR-CMD to CHA. This leaves DEX only providing you with Ref-Save or CMD.
If you don't mind taking 2 levels of Paladin, you can get CHA to All Saves (making up for low Ref if you chose CMD), and Smite Evil gives CHA-to-hit a few times per day.


My other suggestion is also Oracle/Paladin (no prize to who knows where this is going...).

Make a very Caster-Focused Oradin. You'd only need moderate CON and whatever CHA you can afford.
Follow the "Oradin Mini-Guide" link in my signature for details.
Basically, you'd only take 2 levels of Paladin to get access to Lay on Hands and Divine Grace, all the rest would be Oracle-Life Mystery.
As a Caster you wouldn't need STR much, DEX can be ignored by wearing Heavy Armor, INT isn't strictly necessary (and you're Human anyway > bonus skills), and WIS is only good for Will Save which doesn't matter cause both Paladin and Oracle have good Will Saves, AND you get CHA to Will from Divine Grace anyway.

[chaos_redefined]

Synthesist summoner is the best melee-er you're gonna get with such a low point buy. You definitely want to look at a caster so you can use spells to ramp up the low stats.

[Talentless]

Greetings, everyone.

To cut a long story short, I've been invited to a friend of a friend's Pathfinder game. It's 8 PB (not so good) and as far as I've been told Human-only (okay).
8 PB screams SPELLCASTER at me. Any interesting suggestions for a martial build that could work?

(lowering stats to raise PB is allowed)

Thanks!

Why 8 PB? Just why?

While it is better than the standard NPC array of stats (13,12,11,10,9,8, which is 3 PB in the PF system by the way), it is still an Inferior PB to the Elite NPC Stat array, which uses 15 PB.

Not to mention such a ridiculously low PB shafts every MAD class in the game to nearly unplayable proportions.


I honestly would ask the DM why the point buy for PCs that you are getting is lower than the Elite NPC stat array.

If there can be no change to the PB at this point, I'd recommend you tread carefully with the options presented here. Synthesis Summoner will completely outclass any other melee combatant in the party to a ridiculous degree under these rules, so the DM or party members might get pissed at the "Too OP Summoner".

[GreenSerpent]

I mostly play 3.5, so I'm a little unfamiliar with PF. Less than the Elite point buy? I'll ask about that.

[Chilingsworth]

Summoner, as a whole, might be TOO good to be playable in a 8PB mid-low OP enviroment. Unless you want the party mundanes to cry.

Isn't making mundanes cry part of a spellcaster's job description? I could have sworn I read as much in my orientation papers.

[navar100]

Why 8 PB? Just why?

While it is better than the standard NPC array of stats (13,12,11,10,9,8, which is 3 PB in the PF system by the way), it is still an Inferior PB to the Elite NPC Stat array, which uses 15 PB.

Not to mention such a ridiculously low PB shafts every MAD class in the game to nearly unplayable proportions.


I honestly would ask the DM why the point buy for PCs that you are getting is lower than the Elite NPC stat array.


The cynic in me says the DM is one who hates his players, one who hates PCs to be "powerful". If he answers "to be a challenge", that's a cop out. He hates his players.

[Slipperychicken]

Commoner, if you're feeling up for a round of Extreme Hard Mode D&D. Looks like the feel your DM is going for anyway.

Maybe an ranged attacker (pump Dex, ~12 Con), ideally if you can get Dex to damage. Gunslinger5/FighterX? Or just a straight Weapon Master Fighter with a Composite longbow.

You could play a standard dumb Barbarian. Dump Int and Cha down to 7, pump Strength and Con, put the remainder in Dex, two-hand a Greatsword/Falchion. Your Rage will get the stats you care about (Str and Con) back to reasonable levels in combat. Str 16 (including human bonus), Dex 11, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 7.

I'd probably play a Summoner, and just let the summons/Eidolon tank. Master Summoner might be better if people will just banish your Eidolon.

[Slipperychicken]

* or doesn't trust them.

It's also possible he misread the PB rules and values

Seconded. Some DMs do misread it that way, so ask him about this.

EDIT: Why isn't gr8artist's post appearing? Did he delete it 5 seconds after making it?

[GreenSerpent]

Composite longbowbow.


This I want.

I've sent off emails, but no reply yet. Hmmm. Synthesist Summoner is looking very attractive, as is a buff/debuff focused Witch.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Don't worry about making a martial character cry, in an 8 PB game (and I'm BETTING it will end up being low wealth, too!) the DM's already done that job for you.

Focus on not sucking.

Which means being a spellcaster or a synthesist (also actually a spellcaster, just happens to have a minor in ass kicking), as many others have said.

Human Wizard or Witch array: Str 7, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16+2, Wis 7, Cha 7
Human Synthesist array: Str 7, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 16+2

Either of those arrays is totally playable. Pity the martial classes, but don't be duped into being one.

[Chained Birds]

If Synthesist, I'd recommend at least a 14 in con or try to match your Eidolon Form's Con as much as possible so you don't end up killing yourself with the sudden Con drop after transforming back to your human form. Otherwise, you end up in the same boat as the Barbarian.

[TopCheese]

Wow yeah your DM hates players...

The DM should have just restricted the game to partial casters and mundanes (sans summoner) for a better overall gritty/low powered feel.

One of my friends are running this and it is working out quite well.

[StreamOfTheSky]

If Synthesist, I'd recommend at least a 14 in con or try to match your Eidolon Form's Con as much as possible so you don't end up killing yourself with the sudden Con drop after transforming back to your human form. Otherwise, you end up in the same boat as the Barbarian.

But...eidolons all have 13 Con.... I went with 12 con and 14 wis instead of the opposite just so you don't have to deal with hp changes between forms.

[Krazzman]

Some advice for carrying stuff if you see yourself dumping str... Muleback Cords. APG. They are awesome... raise your STR by 8 for carrying capacity. The party barbarian with this recently took the flesh-to-stoned wizard and is still light loaded...

[Zubrowka74]

Wow yeah your DM hates players...

The DM should have just restricted the game to partial casters and mundanes (sans summoner) for a better overall gritty/low powered feel.

One of my friends are running this and it is working out quite well.

It's not necessarily hate.

I've run low power games where every player was a rogue / beggar variant with almost no wealth. Half the party started the game in prison, the other half had to bust them out. Turned out one of the most fun run the players and I have ever had. Of course I toned down the encounters.

[Slipperychicken]

It's not necessarily hate.

I've run low power games where every player was a rogue / beggar variant with almost no wealth. Half the party started the game in prison, the other half had to bust them out. Turned out one of the most fun run the players and I have ever had. Of course I toned down the encounters.

I've even heard of experienced players running All-Commoner games, just for the challenge (and lulz, of course).

[GreenSerpent]

Hmmm, okay, some more information I've found out.

Max campaign level he's planning to go to is 9 currently (okay, no qualms), there are non-human races but they're rare and only in the hands of experienced players (annoying, but I can live with that), and if I want to start at a higher level then I have to "pay" for it in cost of PB and other stuff. Each level I pay for I lose 2 PB and gain 300gp in starting funds.

Luckily I think there's a party of level 1s around so I can go with them... if I can convince the DM to let me play an Orc I'd try a Scarred Witch Doctor. But that's unlikely.

Classes allowed are Alchemist, Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Fighter, Inquisitor, Monk, Oracle, Paladin, Priest (kinda like a Cloistered Cleric), Ranger, Rogue, Sorceror, Witch, Wizard. Also, not all archetypes are available.

Monk, Paladin, and probably Rogue are right out straight away.

[TopCheese]

Hmmm, okay, some more information I've found out.

Max campaign level he's planning to go to is 9 currently (okay, no qualms), there are non-human races but they're rare and only in the hands of experienced players (annoying, but I can live with that), and if I want to start at a higher level then I have to "pay" for it in cost of PB and other stuff. Each level I pay for I lose 2 PB and gain 300gp in starting funds.

Luckily I think there's a party of level 1s around so I can go with them... if I can convince the DM to let me play an Orc I'd try a Scarred Witch Doctor. But that's unlikely.

Classes allowed are Alchemist, Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Fighter, Inquisitor, Monk, Oracle, Paladin, Priest (kinda like a Cloistered Cleric), Ranger, Rogue, Sorceror, Witch, Wizard. Also, not all archetypes are available.

Monk, Paladin, and probably Rogue are right out straight away.


Umm wait... What?

Starting at 8 pt buy and -2 PB for each level above 1st... I'm not sure the word to use for that, my head went blank when I read that.

Non human races for more experience players? What funky music is your DM smoking (yes that didn't make sense just like the races idea). I mean it..just.. Please tell me you are messing with the playground!!

You know what... I wish you luck but if I was in your position I would just say "I'm out".

I take back the "DM hates players" and say your DM hates D&D/Pathfinder (at least from the DM side)... Wait is your DM being pushed into DMing due to no one else wanting the job? Now that would make sense...

[mcv]

The cynic in me says the DM is one who hates his players, one who hates PCs to be "powerful". If he answers "to be a challenge", that's a cop out. He hates his players.

Rubbish. Don't be so dramatic. The GM just wants a different power level. Plenty of people have fun with 3d6 in order in older editions and retroclones. Why would 3.5 only be playable with maxed out overpowered characters?

My advice is: just make the character you want to play. No, it's not going to scrape every bit of effectiveness out of the class, but that's probably the entire point of this game.

Spellcasters are the easiest of course. You can afford to start with 15 is your casting stat, and it'll still be 19 by the time you reach 9th level spells (if you ever get that far).

For fighters, focus on Strength of course, make sure your Dex and Con are above average, dump the rest.

Any of the basic classes can work fine. It's just stuff like Paladin and Monk that are unlikely to be very workable.

[Krazzman]

Rubbish. Don't be so dramatic. The GM just wants a different power level. Plenty of people have fun with 3d6 in order in older editions and retroclones. Why would 3.5 only be playable with maxed out overpowered characters?

My advice is: just make the character you want to play. No, it's not going to scrape every bit of effectiveness out of the class, but that's probably the entire point of this game.

Spellcasters are the easiest of course. You can afford to start with 15 is your casting stat, and it'll still be 19 by the time you reach 9th level spells (if you ever get that far).

For fighters, focus on Strength of course, make sure your Dex and Con are above average, dump the rest.

Any of the basic classes can work fine. It's just stuff like Paladin and Monk that are unlikely to be very workable.

Hmm yeah, they can work fine but can they be what the player wanted them to be? The point is PB 8 is quite low... 10 was considered low fantasy... if you want to even aim UNDER that I would advice you to another system... DSA is perfect for people that don't like fights and living PC's but aim more for story/realistic-reenactment or some sort of this.

I'm not saying that this is a failure or that the dm hates his players or the system but there are approaches against the normal powercurves and as such I find a balancing through PB to be idiotic. Of course 2 points aren't going to be that severe but they strike me as oddity. I wouldn't participate in that campaign as this wouldn't be the thing I seek in a campaign. But I still think this leaves the players in a mess. They will be forced to specialised into certain ability scores.
Fighters probably tend to be idiotic uncarismatic meatshields that forget their own name on a weekly basis.
To get a 15 in a stat nearly burns up all your points. To even get another +1 bonus you have to eat a -1 mod in another stat before racials.
A fighter using this method could run around with this array: 15 14 14 7 7 7. or 16 12 14 7 7 7. As only humans seem to be allowed: giving him an 18 in str. Wow... your fighter get's 1 or 2 skillpoints per level... but has a speechproblem(in the sense of reasoning and how much words he knows), is illusioned (no common sense) and looks like a halfburnt dog's butt. This doesn't in any way leads to an interesting character for me. It may be interesting to see the reaction on the faces of others but else? I don't see anything interesting in such a game.

[Deepbluediver]

Sorry, but I want to make sure I'm understanding the character creation system correctly; I've honestly never heard of a game with a setting this low. Usually if a DM is worried about over optimization they just go with ability arrays instead.

All your stats start at 8, and you get only 8 points to improve them.
I have a question, is it entirely 1 for 1, or do you need to spend more per point of ability improvement past 14?

If you want to play a martial character, and ToB isn't on the table, I would probably go with one of the classics: Barbarian. If you can buy 1-for-1 as high as you want, dump it all in Strength; if not, then take some Constitution as well.
The d12 Hit Dice should somewhat offset of the mediocre Con bonus, and when you enrage you further pump your best stats.
Yes, pretty much the only thing you can do is rush into combat and beat on enemies with your sword/axe/teammate, but in a low point-buy game I think most players will be limited to a single role.

P.S. If anyone else knows of another build that does this better, feel free to mention it; I'm not a PF expert and my op-fu is weak in any event.

[navar100]

Rubbish. Don't be so dramatic. The GM just wants a different power level. Plenty of people have fun with 3d6 in order in older editions and retroclones. Why would 3.5 only be playable with maxed out overpowered characters?



After reading the update of the campaign, I stand by my statement.

[GreenSerpent]

The DM's apparently using some rules he found online.

http://www.angelickitten.com/rpol/pdf/nw_v2.pdf

Got it from him. He didn't make it though.
Aaaaand now I look at it I become even more sure that anything apart from a primary spellcaster will be screwed, and even they will have a hard time. Also, non-human races start with 6 PB instead of 8.

[Deepbluediver]

The DM's apparently using some rules he found online.

http://www.angelickitten.com/rpol/pdf/nw_v2.pdf

All stats start at 10, not 8, so that's a little better, and you can sacrifice in your dump stats for extra points.
I still think you could do alright with a melee character, so long as you focus mainly on combat.

Difficulty depends on what the rest of the campaign is like. Assuming that encounters are adjusted for this level of play, I think it will be fine. The most important thing to do, IMO, is to get as much information from the DM as you can on what roles you will need to fill, and coordinate with the rest of your party as appropriate. If you are not going to be doing classic dungeon-crawling, you might not need a skill monkey. If it's going to be all fighting and very little talk, then you don't need a party face (Charisma based class).

One thing to remember about the power-curve, since you seem concerned: it tends to be reversed (or at least less severe) at lower levels. The squishy casters don't have a ton of spells per day, durations are shorter, and their selection (particularly for arcane magic users) is less. If the campaign is capping out at 9 or 10, then I don't think being entirely eclipsed is a major concern.

I agree that you should still probably avoid the MADest classes.

[mcv]

After reading the update of the campaign, I stand by my statement.

Some of those campaign rules are definitely questionable. Starting at higher level in exchange for lower stats is inherently unbalancing. Allowing some options only for some players is definitely questionable. And an enormous pile of house rules should trigger an alarm (though it doesn't have to be bad at all; if the GM is actually that good, it can be awesome). But low stats themselves are not inherently problematic.

Of course the GM will have to scale down the threats. An 8 PB group can't be expected to tackle the same kind of threats as a 25 PB group (note: unless they play very strategically, which makes actual stats a lot less relevant than player ingenuity). But the GM probably does this so he can challenge them with much lower level opponents that wouldn't normally be a challenge.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Some of those campaign rules are definitely questionable.

Oh, definitely. Let me show you some:


Dwarves
All dwarves have a Racial 15% Arcane Failure.


Druids
Druids are not used in the North Wind Campaign.

There's also a new race called Sidhe that gets +2 to INT or WIS, +2 CHA, and +2 DEX at the cost of -4 STR, and -2 CON. They also get 30' flight, +1 to enchantment DCs, SLAs, and saving throw bonuses, all at first level.


This is just screaming "bad design".

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'd suggest not playing in this game at all.

Barring that, PLAY A PRIMARY SPELLCASTER!!!!!!!!!


Holy crap this is no-man's land for anyone who needs 3 stats and/or actual gear to function.

Each level up you get +300 gp! That clearly shows you how much wealth he thinks you should have by level. Play a Wizard, Witch, Sorc, or (Synthesist) Summoner and don't look back!

As for the level deal...I'd honestly not take it. You'll just level up sooner if you start at lower level anyway due to needing less xp to do so, and honestly, abusing that system to start off w/ a human wizard 4-5 who STILL has an 18 int will just make you look too overpowered compared to the other PCs and likely draw repurcussions. No reason to make yourself stick out too much.

[AttilaTheGeek]

I'd suggest not playing in this game at all.

Pretty much.