Astral Construction

[willpell]

I thought I had figured out how an astral construct (Expanded Psionics Handbook) is put together, but I'm getting lost trying to interpret how the writers came up with the stats for the base chassis.

A 1st-level construct has a BAB of 2 and a Strength of 15 (+2 bonus), plus it's Small, so it should get +1 to its attack roll. Yet its attack line reads "Slam +3 melee", instead of the "+5" that it seems it should have.

A 2nd-level construct has a BAB of 3 and its Strength bonus is up to +3, though it's now Medium and no longer has the +1 size bonus. Yet where I'd expect the slam attack bonus to be +6, it's only +4.

A 3rd-level construct has a BAB of 4 and a whopping +5 strength bonus, but once again it seems to be 2 points short on its attack. Ditto for the 4th-level construct, on which all the numbers are 2 higher, but once again it seems to have an inexplicable -2 penalty to its attacks.

Then we get to the 5th-level construct and it gets really weird: BAB 7, +9 Strength bonus, but Large size now so there's a -1 size penalty. That should total 15, but instead it's 13 - yet again, exactly 2 points shy of the expected value. What's going on here?

I'm also having a hard time figuring out the Menu B ability "extra attack". It says that a Medium construct (which by definition is level 4, since anything higher is Large and anything lower doesn't get access to Menu B) gets to make two slam attacks, but these only add its Strength bonus, not x1.5, to the damage roll. For a Large construct, its says you get three slams instead of two, and "its attacks are otherwise unchanged". Well, when I looked at those unchanged attacks, I discovered this whole problem - the 5th-level construct has a default full attack of "2 slams +13 melee (1d8+9)". And his Strength bonus is +9 due to a Strength of 29, so apparently he's no longer getting x1.5 Strength bonus on his Slams like the Medium ones are (except for a level 4 using Extra Attack).

So what's the deal? Why do the Constructs stop dealing x1.5 damage on their Slams when they become Large? I'd also like to know how the slam interacts with Power Attack if you choose that option from Menu A. When a level 1 construct with a +2 Strength mod is dealing 1d4+3 damage, can he Power Attack for -2 to his attack roll and deal +4 damage? He doesn't have "a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon in two hands", or does he? Does a natural weapon count? I'm very confused.

[JeminiZero]

I thought I had figured out how an astral construct (Expanded Psionics Handbook) is put together, but I'm getting lost trying to interpret how the writers came up with the stats for the base chassis.

Hmm... where did you get those stats from? The stats I am looking at on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/astralConstruct.htm) are different from what you mention. There a 1st level construct has +0 BAB, 2nd level has +1 BAB, and 3rd level has +2 BAB. You might be reading base grapple as BAB instead.

[danzibr]

Something does seem fishy. The 1st AC from here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/astralConstruct.htm) is small so +1, has 1 HD so +0 (I think constructs get 3/4), has a Str of 15 so +2 for a total of +3 (I see nothing else that would increase this). However, for attack is says +2 1d4+3. The +3 damage would have to come from 1.5*Str modifier.

EDIT: Alright, let's look at at the 2nd level AC as well. Medium, so nothing special. 2 HD, so +1 BAB. Str 17 so +3. So it looks like it should have +4 to attack and... it does! That's good. And the slam, given it's 1.5*Str, should be 1d6+4 and... it is! Still good.

Let's jump up to the first large one, 5th level. 7 HD so +5 BAB. Large so -1. Str 29 so +9 for +13 total. And yup, checks out. For the damage it gets 2 slams but only at 1*Str modifier it seems, 1d8+9, spot on.

At a glance it looks like they forgot to add the size modifier for the small one but the rest are good.

[Jeraa]

Hmm... where did you get those stats from? The stats I am looking at on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/astralConstruct.htm) are different from what you mention. There a 1st level construct has +0 BAB, 2nd level has +1 BAB, and 3rd level has +2 BAB. You might be reading base grapple as BAB instead.

He got them from the Expanded Psionics Handbook itself, not the SRD. However, the book is wrong. A 1 hit die creature should not have a BAB of +2.

Note that the online SRD that was linked is wrong as well. A 1st level astral construct, with +0 BAB, +2 strength modifier, and small size should have an attack of +3, not the +2 that is listed. THe rest are fine, though.


So what's the deal? Why do the Constructs stop dealing x1.5 damage on their Slams when they become Large?

Because they start getting 2 slam attacks instead of 1. If you only have a single natural weapon, it usually gets 1.5x strength bonus on damage. If you have 2 or more weapons, they only get 1x. 2 slams are 2 natural weapons.


Natural Weapons: A creature’s attack gets the creature’s full damage bonus from Strength, or 1-1/2 times the Strength bonus if it is the creature’s sole natural weapon.

As for Power Attacking, the FAQ answers that:


Does a dragon with Power Attack add twice the number subtracted from attack rolls to damage rolls when making a tail slap?
No. While it shares some mathematical similarity to a twohanded weapon, the tail slap (or any other natural weapon that adds 1–1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls) doesn’t gain any other benefits applied to the use of a twohanded weapon.

[danzibr]

He got them from the Expanded Psionics Handbook itself, not the SRD. However, the book is wrong. A 1 hit die creature should not have a BAB of +2.

Note that the online SRD that was linked is wrong as well. A 1st level astral construct, with +0 BAB, +2 strength modifier, and small size should have an attack of +3, not the +2 that is listed. THe rest are fine, though.
Tsk tsk XPH. Darn shame.

And I agree with the rest being correct on the SRD.

[willpell]

Ah okay, well that makes sense enough. A bit of a shame though, since it means that Power Attack is now useless on a Small construct (0 BAB) and far less potent on a Medium or larger one (with for example 3 BAB instead of 5). Oh well, thanks for the help, I think I got it figured out now.

Hm, weird...the Energy Touch selection on Menu B allows you to pick fire, cold, electricity, or acid, when all the Energy powers lack acid but allow sonic. The bit about kineticists is also weird; there's a Feat in Complete Psionic which lets kineticists pick an energy type to specialize in, but it seems odd that the EPH would reference something that wouldn't appear until a later book. Strange....

Also, a question on the Boost Construct feat. It says you may choose an extra ability from any menu that the construct already has an ability from, but under constructs themselves, it says you can always trade one pick from a menu for two picks from the lower menu. So if you're making a level 4-6 construct, which initially gets one Menu B or two menu As, can you have your feat say "I get an extra Menu B", then trade them all for four menu As? Or do you only get three, because the Feat is applied after you trade away the original?

[Jeraa]

Hm, weird...the Energy Touch selection on Menu B allows you to pick fire, cold, electricity, or acid, when all the Energy powers lack acid but allow sonic. The bit about kineticists is also weird; there's a Feat in Complete Psionic which lets kineticists pick an energy type to specialize in, but it seems odd that the EPH would reference something that wouldn't appear until a later book. Strange....

The Energy Touch entry has been errated, as its wrong.


Page 186: Astral Construct Under the Astral Construct Menu B, the Energy Touch ability should be written as follows:

Energy Touch (Ex): If you are a kineticist with the Expanded Knowledge feat tied to this power, the astral construct’s physical attacks are wreathed in an energy type of your choice (acid, cold, electricity, or fire), dealing an extra 1d6 points of energy damage. Otherwise, the astral construct you manifest deals an extra 1d4 points of damage of an energy type you choose (acid, cold, electricity, or fire).

Any while most powers don't allow you to choose acid as a damage type, there still are powers that deal acid damage. And sonic isn't usually an energy type that a creatures natural weapons deal, while acid is used by some creatures.

[willpell]

The Energy Touch entry has been errated, as its wrong.

I know, but even the errata talks about "your energy type" for Kineticists, and as far as I'm aware that's only a thing if you take the feat in Cpsi. A normal Kineticist who EK's Astral Construct should still get the "choose an energy for 1d4" thing just like a Shaper would, as best I can see.

[Jeraa]

I know, but even the errata talks about "your energy type" for Kineticists, and as far as I'm aware that's only a thing if you take the feat in Cpsi. A normal Kineticist who EK's Astral Construct should still get the "choose an energy for 1d4" thing just like a Shaper would, as best I can see.

No, it doesn't. I posted the errata. I'll post it again.


Page 186: Astral Construct Under the Astral Construct Menu B, the Energy Touch ability should be written as follows:

Energy Touch (Ex): If you are a kineticist with the Expanded Knowledge feat tied to this power, the astral construct’s physical attacks are wreathed in an energy type of your choice (acid, cold, electricity, or fire), dealing an extra 1d6 points of energy damage. Otherwise, the astral construct you manifest deals an extra 1d4 points of damage of an energy type you choose (acid, cold, electricity, or fire).

You choose what type of energy damage you want the construct to do. It works exactly the same for kineticists as it does for everyone else, except the kineticists astral constructs do more of the energy damage.