My Party is Forcing Me to Play a Tank

[Tormented]

I haven't played for about 2 years and my group is wanting me to be the tank and healer at the same time. I'm thinking, "That's impossible you twits." After much thought I decided to create a class to hopefully be balanced and meet their needs. If I built it correctly then I can use the class for more than a tank-healer-like class.

I came up with the Devoted Defender. "There's always a motive. The devoted defender fights for that motive. He fights for that right. He fights for that belief, whatever it may be."

To keep from retyping so much here's a copy/paste of part of the email I sent to my DM:

1. I took cleric as a base class.
2. I reduced the spell casting capability by to the Generic Class- spellcaster (Unearthed Arcana pg 77-78).
3. To somewhat counter that I gave the class proficiency with Tower Shields but since the class isn't so much about attacking as it is defending I removed proficiency with all simple weapons, replacing it with proficiency with 1 simple or martial weapon. Every "defender" has their go-to weapon at their hip / on their back / hidden somewhere else . . .
4. To balance it further without reducing the attack bonus to lowest I forced spell specialization without the bonus of extra spells.
5. To add a little flavor based on the specialization the devoted defender gains the school specialization variant noted in the class feature Over Specialization.
6. Other flavor in the class was inspired by class-spellcaster by allowing custom skills and spells to better suit each devoted defender ever to be created.

I really suck at making tables so bare with me please. The class has medium BAB, Fortitude and Will are good saves. Special is just spellcasting and a class feature I call Over Specialization.

Abilities: Wisdom determines how powerful a spell devoted defender can cast, how many spells he can cast per day, and how hard those spells are to resist (see Spellcasting, below). A high Constitution score gives devoted defender extra hit points.
Alignment: Any. Devoted defenders come from all walks of life.
HD: d8
Class Skills (2 + Int modifier per level) (x4 at 1st level): Choose any four skills as class skills, plus Craft, Knowledge (Arcane), Knowledge (Divine), and Profession.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Devoted defenders are proficient with one weapon (simple or martial), with all types of armor (light, medium, and heavy), and with shields (including tower shields).
Spellcasting: A devoted defender learns and casts spells as a sorcerer. He may select his spells known from the cleric, druid, and sorcerer/wizard spell lists. When selecting spells devoted defenders must choose one school to specialize in (See Over Specialization, below).
A devoted defender casts divine spells, using Wisdom to determine the highest-level spell he can learn or cast, and the DC of his spell's saving throws (10 + spell level + the devoted defender's Wisdom modifier).
Over Specialization: At 1st level a devoted defender chooses one school to specialize in. This represents a devoted defender's commitment to defend what he believes in, only learning spells that are necessary. When choosing his spells upon attaining a new level the devoted defender must choose at least one spell from his specialty school to add to his known spells. Upon specializing the devoted defender must give up two other schools of magic (unless he chooses to specialize in divination, then only one). A devoted defender can never give up divination to fulfill this requirement. Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the devoted defender, and he can't even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. He may not change either his specialization or his prohibited schools later.
He casts spells from his specialty school at one spellcaster level higher. Apply abilities from Specialist Wizard Varients in Unearthed Arcana (pages 59 – 64) upon the appropriate levels as if you meet the prerequisites of your specialty school.

I think its balanced. I hope so. Any ideas/criticisms? Somewhere I could upload the pdf so you all can see the tables if you really need to?

[Man on Fire]

How about playing somethign you want and not something other people want you to play?

[Answerer]

Yeah, 3.5 does not require that given "roles" get filled. You don't need a healer, and playing a tank is nearly impossible anyway.

[Glimbur]

Have you considered taking a cleric and playing it? You could throw a feat on Tower Shield Proficiency, if you really want it.

Alternately, what books are you allowed to use? Crusader from Tome of Battle could do what you want.

[Answerer]

Crusader is a good idea, all around:

Sturdy: d10 hit die and heavy armor proficiency, plus a special ability that delays damage he takes by 1 round (and he gets benefits while delaying damage)
Actual Tanking Abilities: Defender's Rebuke and Iron Guard's Glare are some of the very few true aggro-drawing abilities in all of 3.5.
Excellent In-Combat Healing: Usually, you do not want to heal in combat because you prevent far more damage by killing an enemy than you can heal with the same action; healing spells are very weak and/or take a long time (exception: heal). The Crusader gets around this by healing allies as he attacks enemies. This is pretty solid.
Really Easy to Build: The Crusader doesn't have much in the way of "traps" – you can take maneuvers that sound cool, and they will be. This makes the class excellent for a new/rusty player.

[Archmage1]

You want a cleric that can fight
Take dmm persist, persist divine power, call it a day.
You are a cleric, with full BAB.
or play as a druid, which solves everything.

[Threadnaught]

Tell your party to mind their characters, while you deal with yours.

As far as helping you select a healing tank, tanking healers in core are Cleric and Druid, nothing special done to them, just themselves able to tank and heal using their standard class abilities, though Druid is the better healer because of Unicorns. Is also better tank because of Wild Shape Dire Tortoise (among other things), with the option of having a Dire Tortoise (among other things) as a companion for even more tanking.

[Uncle Pine]

3.5e doesn't have a "trinity" like MMORPG (dps, healer and tank). Should I define a trinity in 3.5e, I'd go for Archivist, Artificer and Erudite.
If I were you, I'd also just stick with what you want to play. Anyway, if you really want to be nice and help your teammates you have a few options:
1) Play a Knight (PHB II) and tell them to buy healing belts (MIC). This works even better at higher levels (Knight's capstone is also awesome).
2) Play a Cleric: you don't need a tower shield to be a tank. In fact, a heavy shield with defensive shield spikes is way better. You also have good buffs and support spells and (naturally) healing spells. You could also make a wonderful tank with DMM, but some DMs don't like that. :smallwink:

EDIT: Oh yeah, I completely forgot Druids! Trees' friends make wonderful tanks (and good healer).

[VariaVespasa]

Well I was usually the tank and healer in Baldurs Gate. Worked very well. Of course 3.5 is a different beastie than 2.0, but still...

Blatant shill- Baldurs Gate revamp, out now- play it, it is the law!!! :P

[Slipperychicken]

In 3.5 all you need to heal up after every fight is a Wand of CLW. Seriously, just one of those buggers can last you quite a while (in my PF campaign, we got through three levels on 10 charges, and have ~40 left. Granted, my summons were taking most of the damage, and you don't need to heal those). Any class with UMD or CLW on its spell list can use one of these babies.

Seconding Druid (those guys are badass as all hell if you know how to use Wildshape, pick the Companion right/swap him out each level, and use your Spellcasting), adding you should get a CLW Wand just to show the group that you don't need a dedicated "Healer" character, that all you need is a single item. Consider your goal to go through the whole game without using one spell slot on Cure X, which shouldn't be too hard since out-of-combat healing is more efficient anyway.

What level are you playing at btw?

[Tormented]

Thanks for all the help. When we do get to playing I had the notion of being a rogue, but I wanted to find a way to have a full BAB. The party is needed a tank & healer so I figured I'd try to make something that had sneak attack, could tank, and heal. Yeah... crazy... I know. The first incarnation wasn't balanced at all so I scrapped it and started over. So, no sneak attack but at least with this build I have options through spells. Also I realize cleric would work but since I couldn't squeeze sneak attack in there without multiclassing I figured I could have fun with a custom spell list. The DM told me to make a class and get back with him so I followed orders. ;) Along with this class I plan on playing as a necropolitan and figured, in thought while building this class, I could pick out a few spells that do "harm" and maybe specialize in necromancy or conjuration.

As for books, I just have to run it past the DM before I can use it. He doesn't have a problem with Unearthed Arcana or any of the Complete books so those are what I've been trying to draw inspiration from.

Crusader sounds interesting. Dm doesn't like the idea of me playing a Druid; probably something about me being the munchkin in our party. *innocent*

[Hyde]

The best way to tank is to just nuke the biggest threat. To that end, I would suggest an overchannel split-ray psion. in 3.5, you might as well play a telepath, there isn't really an inherent bonus in the disciplines other than the power selection, and that opens another tanking avenue- filling the area between you and your foes with a faceless army of fodder via Thrallherd.

Edit: Of course, this is assuming you can convince your DM to allow any of this.

[Slipperychicken]

As a Necropolitan, beware your lower hit points (no Con to HP). The usual fix is to take Fairie Mysteries Initiate from Dragon 319, and add your Int to HP instead. A character who takes the feat only has to do the ritual once to keep the benefit forever, unless you decide to do one of the other rituals for some moon-logic reason I can't comprehend.

For general tanking, if you end up playing a positive-energy healer (i.e. not undead), consider the Wrathful Healing weapon property from Enemies and Allies. It's a +3 which heals the wielder half the damage dealt to creatures. Beware, it is positive energy, so it hurts undead wielders.

Characters with the War domain can get some mileage out of the Holy Warrior feat (Complete Champion), which adds to weapon damage based on the highest-level War spell prepared. Very nice.

EDIT: Another viable way to tank is to summon creatures to do it for you. If you go this route, I recommend looking up summoning handbooks.

Remember, all Good Clerics can spontaneously cast Sanctified Spells from BoED (you don't even need to take a feat or anything). This vastly increases your versatility. They're worth looking at for that reason alone (although most of them admittedly suck), in addition to some goodies like Luminous Armor and Hammer of Righteousness.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Regular ol' Cleric will work just fine for what you want to do.

Go with a Desert Half-Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertHalfOrcs) with Dragonborn of Bahamut (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b) (heart aspect) and the feat Entangling Exhalation from Races of the Dragon. Use that to keep as many opponents as possible entangled for the entire encounter.

Get the Cold domain (SC) with the spontaneous domain casting ACF in PH2. It gets some of the better crowd control spells in the game, plus some nice aoe nukes. Get Extend Spell, Persistent Spell (CA), and Divine Metamagic (CD): Persistent, and get a bunch of Night Sticks (LM). Use DMM: Persist with Elation (BoED), Mass Lesser Vigor (SC), Ice Axe (SC), Divine Power, and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (SC).

If you want to go the cheesy route, get the Winter domain (Frostburn) and use (Lesser Rod of Extended) Snowsight on everyone along with (Extended) Obscuring Snow. Make the rest of the party each put down 2,000 gp for a 1st level Pearl of Power and to go in thirds for Lesser Rods of Extend if they want Snowsight cast on them. That way you'll only have to spend one 1st level spell each day on it.

Get a standard Strand of Prayer Beads that's had the Bead of Smiting removed, per DMG pricing it should cost only 9,000 gp. Get a Lesser Rod of Extend and use the Bead of Karma before casting (Extended) Magic Vestment on your armor and shield. Get a Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC) and eventually upgrade it to add a bonus to Wisdom (MIC p234). Between heavy armor, a heavy shield, at least +2 on each of them, and (Rapid Cast) Shield of Faith, you should be plenty tanky.

If you want to play a Necropolitan, this build right here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252815#4) is pretty good, and Bards can even cast Cure spells.

[INoKnowNames]

The second I saw the title, I was like "don't people normally get forced to play Healer or other supports?". Then I saw that they're making you do both. 'cuz of that, I'll definitely throw my vote onto the Crusader pile, especially if the Dm thinks you're the resident Min-Maxer (hopefully he doesn't actually think you're a cheater... :smalleek:), since it's certainly not overpowered. Just excellent.

[ahenobarbi]

So you want to:
- "Tank".
- Heal.
- Sneak attack.

Well you could go Cleric 5/Unseen Seer 4/ Cleric 10/ Whatever 1. You will need:
- Something to cast arcane spells. Feat magical training (Players guide to Faerun) will give you that.
- Feat "Sacred Outlaw" (Dragon 357): Rogue & Cleric stack for progressing Turn Undead as well as Sneak Attack.

This gets full cleric casting and 10d6 sneak attack. With Divine power you get full base attack bonus (you probably want to persist it).

[docnessuno]

Another option (much better at "tanking") is Crusader 1 / Cleric 4 / Ruby knight WINdicator 10.

Access to shadow hand means that if you really want SA you can have it, while crusader manouvers coupled with the right feats grant you a good deal of movement denial and control.

[Answerer]

Another option (much better at "tanking") is Crusader 1 / Cleric 4 / Ruby knight WINdicator 10.

Access to shadow hand means that if you really want SA you can have it, while crusader manouvers coupled with the right feats grant you a good deal of movement denial and control.
Good choice, but Cleric 4/Crusader 1 is better than the other way around.

[Gavinfoxx]

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2710

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1238

Seriously. Play a high-op Cloistered Cleric, and flavor your Knowledge Devotion your anatomical knowledge in striking weak points. You can even make a Cloistered Cleric into a solid rogue/tank/healer/dpr/utility caster. IE, they can do everything, at high enough levels of optimization.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=292794

Remember, at low levels, the main tanks should probably be Mules... as in, the animal. They make great tanks.

[herrhauptmann]

Blatant shill- Baldurs Gate revamp, out now- play it, it is the law!!! :P
I've heard it doesn't work so well with integrated graphics cards.


http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2710

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1238

Seriously. Play a high-op Cloistered Cleric, and flavor your Knowledge Devotion your anatomical knowledge in striking weak points. You can even make a Cloistered Cleric into a solid rogue/tank/healer/dpr/utility caster. IE, they can do everything, at high enough levels of optimization.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=292794

Remember, at low levels, the main tanks should probably be Mules... as in, the animal. They make great tanks.

Cloistered cleric of Fharlangangnagnangan? Travel and knowledge devotion.
Or maybe Pelor/Lathander. For entry to Radiant Servant

[molten_dragon]

Actually, you can do the tank/healer role pretty decently now that ToB is out. A ruby knight vindicator fills the role almost perfectly (and is fun to play too). Heck, even straight crusader or straight cleric can get the job done.

[Rubik]

I suggest that if you want a healing tank, either go crusader or play a cleric or druid and use wands of the Lesser Vigor spell (from Spell Compendium) or Cure Light Wounds to heal after combat. Also you can summon unicorns and such with Summon Planar Ally to heal your party in combat without sacrificing your turns or further resources.

[Deepbluediver]

Tell your party to mind their characters, while you deal with yours.

A little coordination isn't a bad thing. When you avoid it entirely that's how you end up with a group composed of 3 rogues and a rogue/ranger hybrid. :smallyuk:


3.5e doesn't have a "trinity" like MMORPG (dps, healer and tank).

No, but it's still a good idea to have some one who can use healing magic, particularly if the rest of the party is melee-heavy. Either that or you need to invest in a portable hole full of healing potion.

[ahenobarbi]

No, but it's still a good idea to have some one who can use healing magic, particularly if the rest of the party is melee-heavy. Either that or you need to invest in a portable hole full of healing potion.

Not really (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1121.0) (scroll down a bit to reply #7). Also potions are horrible.

[Answerer]

A little coordination isn't a bad thing. When you avoid it entirely that's how you end up with a group composed of 3 rogues and a rogue/ranger hybrid. :smallyuk:
Really not that big a problem in 3.5


No, but it's still a good idea to have some one who can use healing magic, particularly if the rest of the party is melee-heavy. Either that or you need to invest in a portable hole full of healing potion.
Yeah, no, that's not a good idea at all. You don't need a healer and you really don't need any healing potions ever. Healing Belts (Magic Item Compendium) for emergency in-combat healing, and a Wand of Cure Light Wounds or Lesser Vigor (Spell Compendium) for out-of-combat healing. Nothing more is necessary, and someone providing more has to be very careful that he's not wasting his time since there are most likely more efficient things he could be doing.

[Deepbluediver]

Really not that big a problem in 3.5
No, it doesn't mean you can't play, but it does limit your options somewhat.

Everything we didn't think we could ambush and kill in one round we snuck past, which got boring pretty quickly.


Yeah, no, that's not a good idea at all. You don't need a healer and you really don't need any healing potions ever.
All I said was that it helped to have some one who could use healing magic, because that makes it easier to use certain items, like Wands. Technically, unless CLW is on your spell list, you're supposed to roll a UMD check every time you want to activate that Wand, you can't take 10 on the check, and if you roll a 1 you can't use that wand again for 24 hours.

[Larkas]

I see I'm not the only one to think that it's ironic, and a little bit sad, that MMORPGs' concepts have filtered into real RPGs. OP, you don't need a dedicated tank, or a healer, in any party in D&D, and in pretty much any other tabletop RPG either. Let me rephrase this: you don't need any kind of character in any party. In a tabletop RPG you can think and improvise to tackle any challenge the DM throws at you. Furthermore, the DM should, at least to some extent, try to tailor, or at least adapt, the challenges to the strengths and weaknesses of your party. Being open ended is what makes a party full of rogues or fighters to be viable, and enjoyable, in a tabletop RPG. Lastly, tank and healer are two very weak archetypes to aspire to in D&D 3.5. The second, because it is more efficient to end a fight BEFORE the enemies can damage your allies, and also because healing during an encounter tend to be very inefficient (and also because you most probably won't be able to heal as much damage as your enemies will be dishing out). The first, because there is no "threat table" in D&D; you can, at most, lock down your enemies.

All that said, I think you're better off with a Crusader. At least he can heal in combat efficiently, and can take quite a beating.

[candycorn]

No, it doesn't mean you can't play, but it does limit your options somewhat.

Everything we didn't think we could ambush and kill in one round we snuck past, which got boring pretty quickly.


All I said was that it helped to have some one who could use healing magic, because that makes it easier to use certain items, like Wands. Technically, unless CLW is on your spell list, you're supposed to roll a UMD check every time you want to activate that Wand, you can't take 10 on the check, and if you roll a 1 you can't use that wand again for 24 hours.

The last statement is only true if you don't succeed. If you have a +19 UMD, and roll a 1, you get a 20, which succeeds. In such a case, you may use it again, since you only have the 24 hour prohibition if you roll a 1 and also fail to activate the wand.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I see I'm not the only one to think that it's ironic, and a little bit sad, that MMORPGs' concepts have filtered into real RPGs.

...You know that older D&D actually did have that setup, right? Because in older editions, the fighter was there to defend the magic-user, the magic-user was there to blast, and the cleric was there to heal. The thief was a secondary DPS with other skills. There are plenty of RPGs out there that don't have those roles as the basis, such as FATE, Champions, or anything by White Wolf, but D&D does have those roles.

Except for 3.X. Because 3.X really screwed up. Sword-and-board fighters can't tank and in-combat healing is a losing battle, regardless of your level of optimization.

[Gigas Breaker]

A few people have suggested crusader already because crusader tanks and heals and has the tools to keep guys off your buddies. You don't need to make a new class because wizards already made crusader for you.

[Larkas]

...You know that older D&D actually did have that setup, right? Because in older editions, the fighter was there to defend the magic-user, the magic-user was there to blast, and the cleric was there to heal. The thief was a secondary DPS with other skills. There are plenty of RPGs out there that don't have those roles as the basis, such as FATE, Champions, or anything by White Wolf, but D&D does have those roles.

Except for 3.X. Because 3.X really screwed up. Sword-and-board fighters can't tank and in-combat healing is a losing battle, regardless of your level of optimization.

Yes and no. 1E and 2E, the ones I played the most, certainly presumed that "base" party to any given game, but, as much as 3E, it wasn't a hard requirement. Sure, it made sense to have a wizard and a rogue in the party, but one of the best games I played involved a knightly order, where we had a cleric, two fighters (ehm, what was the name of the class again? Man-at-arms?) and a paladin. Likewise, I remember playing an infiltration campaign, where you were pretty much required to be a rogue or other sneaky type, such as an illusionist. That was a fine game too. And there were also campaigns where we played with the cookie-cutter party of cleric-fighter-rogue-wizard, but the rogue almost never sneaked around and the cleric was pretty much "fighter n. 2". We could also get around with little healing (and none of the "player-given type"), with no offensive spells, no melee combat and no sneaking around back then (ehm, not all at the same time, mind you! :smalleek: ). It just wasn't as easy as it is in 3.5, though certainly not impossible (and I would say not even hard).

The argument of a DM adapting the challenges to the party, anyways, still stands, and it's not all about making it easy: it makes sense for the characters to choose challenges that better suit their strengths. That knightly order, for example, once saw itself deep in a heavily trapped tomb, searching for a holy relic. But they weren't graverobbers, and much preferred to fight their fights out in the open. They didn't need anyone to disable traps all around simply because they didn't go to places where things were expected to be trapped!

Regardless, 3E is also built with the assumption of a "cookie-cutter party". But we all know how that turned out, so there's no use in bringing it up. :smallbiggrin:

Bottomline, I think you're right, Jade, but I just wanted to point out that old D&D's class requirements were "soft" rather than "hard": if you didn't have a healer, this didn't automatically mean you'd TPK right around the corner. It simply meant you'd have to be more careful, and more mindful of your resources. That is something that simply isn't true in MMORPGs. Ehm, not modern MMORPGs, anyways, it was certainly something doable in Ultima Online. Ah, good times...