Why are people so -STUPID- when it comes to Gaming and Violence!?!

[INoKnowNames]

Alright, we've had claims at gaming since games were first created.

We've had groups like PETA mud slinging over even things like freaking Cooking Mama (http://features.peta.org/CookingMama/) (click at your own risk).

But this most recent thing, over such a horrible tragety.... Just frustrates me! (http://mashable.com/2012/12/14/mass-effect-facebook-shooting/) People are so stupid!! Why!?!

[KillianHawkeye]

It's human nature. Everybody wants to blame some outside source instead of taking responsibility for their own actions, and various forms of entertainment media (not only video games) makes an easy scapegoat.

[INoKnowNames]

It's human nature. Everybody wants to blame some outside source instead of taking responsibility for their own actions, and various forms of entertainment media (not only video games) makes an easy scapegoat.

Why not blame the lack of security in schools? Why not blame the ease of access to guns? Why not blame the troubling environment and such that the shooter may or may not have been exposed to? Why not blame the brands of clothing the actual shooter was wearing, since they're just as tangentally related to the subject as a game's facebook page!?!

And why not have the decency to at least wait a damn day for mourning such a horrible incident!?!

[KillianHawkeye]

I really can't answer any of that. I'm not one of these people. The only thing I can say is that I'm sure there ARE people blaming those other things as well (except maybe the guy's clothes). Different people will find different things to blame whenever anything like this happens.

Also, calm down. This isn't something to get worked up over.

[Gnoman]

Tragic random events of this sort leave people feeling helpless and afraid. The search for why, in a situation where there probably is no why, leads to the search for any scapegoat, no matter how tenuous the link may be.

[Anteros]

As an avid gamer...games do desensitize people to violence. Are they to blame for things like this? Of course not. At least not soley. There is however the argument that someone who is imbalanced may be more likely to resort to violence due to being desensitized by violent and gorey games.

It doesn't mean games should be outlawed or changed though. Freedom will always come hand in hand with increased risk of tragedy. That's the price.

[Jeraa]

Sure, violent video games cause people to go out and kill other people. Just like Red Faction: Guerrilla causes people to go out and destroy buildings with sledge hammers, Mario Brothers causes people to jump on turtles, and Red Alert 3 make people shoot bears out of cannons (with a parachute, of course.)

And just like Dungeons and Dragons and Harry Potter teach kids magic and how to summon demons.

Really, I think its like KillianHawkeye said. Its just easier to blame someone else for what happened instead of actually taking responsibility.

[Squark]

As an avid gamer...games do desensitize people to violence. Are they to blame for things like this? Of course not. At least not soley. There is however the argument that someone who is imbalanced may be more likely to resort to violence due to being desensitized by violent and gorey games.

It doesn't mean games should be outlawed or changed though. Freedom will always come hand in hand with increased risk of tragedy. That's the price.

True to some extent, surely. On the other hand, you can also say that people who are more likely to commit violent crimes are likely going to enjoy violent games*. It's a complicated situation, obviously. And it's not like violent media is the sole source of desensitization to violence out there- being exposed to it, for instance, is also desensitizing.



*This does not mean playing violent videogames makes you violent, any more than owning a can of spray paint makes you vandalize walls, or reading a newspaper makes you hit dogs with it. Just some people who own these items use them to do such things, does not mean all people who use spray paint, read newspapers, or play videogames use them irresponsibly.**
** Yes, I know there are more obvious analogies. But the first ones that came to mind were too political.

[INoKnowNames]

I really can't answer any of that. I'm not one of these people. The only thing I can say is that I'm sure there ARE people blaming those other things as well (except maybe the guy's clothes). Different people will find different things to blame whenever anything like this happens.

Also, calm down. This isn't something to get worked up over.

I know, I know all of this, including not to be rilled up over such idiocy. I just spent a rather stressful morning dealing with my own local morons, and then I look at some of my news sites and run into stuff like this, and I feel like I'm surrounded by lunatics...


Tragic random events of this sort leave people feeling helpless and afraid. The search for why, in a situation where there probably is no why, leads to the search for any scapegoat, no matter how tenuous the link may be.

There infact -is- a why though! People act so surprised when teenage crimes get commited, yet I'm willing to put money on the subject in question being more than troubled enough that someone should have taken him aside and tried to get him some help. So many people -NEED- help, but no one recognises the trouble signs as they brew, and then it explodes and the kids kill themselves or kill others, and those ignorant people can't bother thinking enough to even finger the right suspect, let alone the right scapegoat!


As an avid gamer...games do desensitize people to violence. Are they to blame for things like this? Of course not. At least not soley. There is however the argument that someone who is imbalanced may be more likely to resort to violence due to being desensitized by violent and gorey games.

Games desensitize people to violence; that's definitely a strong theory easily supportable through testing and observation. I wouldn't say an outright fact, because there are just as many people that abhor such violence and still enjoy even compeditive games, and I don't believe in "the exception that proves the rule".

I would, however, love to see a single person who plays Violent Video Games, -ISN'T- mentally imbalanced in some way, shape, or form, And doesn't think these are just awful situations.

[warty goblin]

On the face of it, the question isn't that absurd. I mean we are talking about a pastime that tends to celebrate and reward messily killing virtual people, as well as advertising violence as a fun and effective problem-solving technique. Asking whether or not this may in fact impact the way people behave is hardly unreasonable. Jumping to conclusions on the matter is.

And let's be honest, if (and I stress the hypothetical here) there was a well established causal link between violent games and actual violence, wouldn't banning or restricting them be the most sensible course? Freedom is a good thing don't get me wrong, but it seems to me that my 'right' to eviscerate make-believe people as recreation probably needs to be ranked lower than other people's right to not get for-real shot.

[Falgorn]

Why not blame the lack of security in schools? Why not blame the ease of access to guns? Why not blame the troubling environment and such that the shooter may or may not have been exposed to? Why not blame the brands of clothing the actual shooter was wearing, since they're just as tangentally related to the subject as a game's facebook page!?!

And why not have the decency to at least wait a damn day for mourning such a horrible incident!?!

Well, they did blame most of them (except the clothes, because, really, clothes? What?). The "link" between violent media and violent behavior might not actually exist, but much of the public thinks it does.

[Anteros]

On the face of it, the question isn't that absurd. I mean we are talking about a pastime that tends to celebrate and reward messily killing virtual people, as well as advertising violence as a fun and effective problem-solving technique. Asking whether or not this may in fact impact the way people behave is hardly unreasonable. Jumping to conclusions on the matter is.

And let's be honest, if (and I stress the hypothetical here) there was a well established causal link between violent games and actual violence, wouldn't banning or restricting them be the most sensible course? Freedom is a good thing don't get me wrong, but it seems to me that my 'right' to eviscerate make-believe people as recreation probably needs to be ranked lower than other people's right to not get for-real shot.

I believe the relevant quote here is "those who would trade freedom for safety deserve neither."

This really is a hard thing to discuss fully without getting political and breaking board rules.

[INoKnowNames]

On the face of it, the question isn't that absurd. I mean we are talking about a pastime that tends to celebrate and reward messily killing virtual people, as well as advertising violence as a fun and effective problem-solving technique. Asking whether or not this may in fact impact the way people behave is hardly unreasonable.

My focus in this thread was more on the point that I didn't quote fron your paragraph, the ridiculous attacking of a company that, considering the person they're blaming wasn't even responsible for the crime, had absolutely 0 connection to the issue. The question of gaming affecting violence is slightly more composed and simple, if harder to find a definitive answer.

I'm certainly willing to admit that my addiction does affect my judgement and thoughts more times than most of my other pass times. Hell, I'm willing admit it's an addiction at this point. But that's not my point here, since I know I'm coherent enough to never shed blood like this, nor stupid enough to rabbidly place blame without thinking straight.


And let's be honest, if (and I stress the hypothetical here) there was a well established causal link between violent games and actual violence, wouldn't banning or restricting them be the most sensible course? Freedom is a good thing don't get me wrong, but it seems to me that my 'right' to eviscerate make-believe people as recreation probably needs to be ranked lower than other people's right to not get for-real shot.

Assuming that link actually got made, what with how someone was raised, their body chemistry and headworkings, and the millions of other stemuli, concious and unconciously, they experience every day somehow -not- factoring into that link, then yes. But you really don't stress exactly how HUGE that hypothetical is.


(except the clothes, because, really, clothes? What?).

Considering that they:

A) Potentially have the Wrong Name.
B) Fingered the Wrong Suspect (who might not even be a potential suspect, due to the Wrong Name).
and C) Blamed something said Wrong Suspect with the Wrong Name "Liked" on Facebook

as opposed to waiting and figuring out what the heck is going on, I feel like I can say their actions toward Mass Effect are about as stupid as blaming Levi if the suspect was wearing Levi pants.

[Socratov]

Well, the whole thing is a ritualistic dance. X happens, polits react Y, the populi react Z, and a different section of populi react A. Look back and you'll see what I mean (cant progress further on account of politics). The thing is, it used to be movies, now it's games, go figure.

I think that to remedy this, drastics means have to be taken against certain rreedoms, and it probably will never be prevented at all. (Loonies will be loonies).

It is in the hands of politics and lobbygroups (I'm looking at you certain benefactor of firearm users). I won't and can't go further on the matter. Only thing I can say is this: what transpired was tragic and completely outrageous. I detest what happened and sincerely hope change will present itself with respect to firearms legislation. It would be most ideally be like punishing achild for abuse of toys. If people cant handle certain freedoms, those should be taken awayuntil proof has been presented that people can handle those responibilities.

[Story Time]

Why not blame the lack of security in schools? Why not blame the ease of access to guns? Why not blame the troubling environment and such that the shooter may or may not have been exposed to?

Hello.

...like all great tragedies there is more than one single reason. Many reasons exist which makes the tragedy all the more empty and disgusting. Because there are many reasons why a person does a thing.

Having some...relevant knowledge in therapy, phobias, and military training I can say with relative confidence that, "Simulation has been used effectively to acclimate subjects to environments, habits, and practices which they might find under normal circumstances as strange or difficult."

Military agencies use natural terrain as training habitats for their enlistees. Pilots are subjected to virtual reality simulations for air-craft manipulation, familiarity, and readiness. Patients who possess acro-phobia ( the fear of heights ) have seen success and development when receiving virtual reality therapy in a controlled environment.

The link between games and habit does exist. But ( and this is the important part ) it's a cheap excuse when cited as the only cause.

...the real cause of violence and crime is the individual. They make a choice, no matter how affected, trained, distraught, channeled, or coerced, the person who commits crime and / or violence does so because they decide to do so. And this...truth...does not make money for mass media businesses.

...but there are more important things than complaining about the practices of amoral corporate entities. Giving solace to a victims' relatives is one option among many others.

...choose wisely.

[warty goblin]

I believe the relevant quote here is "those who would trade freedom for safety deserve neither."

This really is a hard thing to discuss fully without getting political and breaking board rules.
Just because an old famous dude said it doesn't mean that applying it in every possible scenario will produce a sensible, valid outcome.

People trade freedom for safety all the time, it's the foundation of any form of society. I trade the freedom to murder everybody who annoys me for the reasonable assumption that others won't kill me for annoying them. It is an entirely reasonable imposition on my freedom to impose a quarantine if I'm wandering around with multi-drug resistant TB or the bubonic plague or similar, because my right to go see The Hobbit is entirely reasonably subordinated by other people's right not to have their lungs rot. The sensible approach to freedom is that it is a very useful tool for improving people's lives, not an axiomatic good even of itself. Because it is an exceedingly useful tool for those purposes, it's maintenance should be given the benefit of the doubt, but upholding it in all cases is driving the cart over the horse.

And this particular case (again predicated on the unproved assumption of a link between violent games and violent behavior) is very simple. People can live happy lives without Call of Duty and Bioshock and Mass Effect. People can't live happy lives if they and their loved ones are getting shot. My freedom to waste time in a particular way does not justify the destruction of somebody else's life.

To be clear, I'm not advocating a ban on violent games, or arguing that they are linked to violent behavior. The evidence for a link between gaming and violent behavior is exceedingly weak at best, and there's many explanations available with much better support. My point is only that asking the question - not assuming one answer or the other - is entirely reasonable, and should be engaged with honestly.

[Bulldog Psion]

So ... are these people saying that humanity has been sweet, gentle, and peace-loving through 99.9999% of history, and suddenly turned violent ten or fifteen years ago when video games became common? :smallconfused:

The murder rate has dropped steadily in the United States since colonial times. It is not skyrocketing today; it's at an all-time low.

Humanity murdered, killed, looted, went to public executions and public torture sessions for entertainment purposes, held gladiatorial contests, hunted "witches", fought bloody duels, carried out huge massacres, used human sacrifice in their rites, fought, brawled, lynched and committed every type of violence long before there were video games, or computers, or electricity for that matter.

There are tens of millions of people playing video games around the world. There are a tiny, tiny handful of crazed shooters. The word "scapegoat" comes to mind when you consider the statistical ramifications.

Considering that the vast majority of violent criminals were themselves subject to violence as children -- and I mean real, appalling violence -- I would say the background is the place to look, not video games. It's particularly significant that this person came from a broken home; clearly, everything isn't happy-sunshine-ville there.

So, when I hear someone screeching about video games or action movies or what have you causing stuff like this, it doesn't irritate or frustrate me. Instead, I can only shake my head wearily over the truly profound lack of perspective on both human nature and human history that said viewpoint exhibits. :smallsigh:

We live at a period of minimum violence compared to the rest of history. That is a demonstrable, objective fact.

Another objective fact is that banning video games will not abolish human nature or its occasional malfunctions.

[Zevox]

I believe the relevant quote here is "those who would trade freedom for safety deserve neither."

This really is a hard thing to discuss fully without getting political and breaking board rules.
Close. It was "Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither, and shall lose both." By Benjamin Franklin, if I recall.

[INoKnowNames]

Hello.

Your small sized font is intriging. I can imagine you speaking calmly and quietly. It's a nice touch.


...but there are more important things than complaining about the practices of amoral corporate entities. Giving solace to a victims' relatives is one option among many others.

THIS IS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT IS GOING ON!

To clarify, as much as I know, the Shooter:
-KILLED HIS MOTHER
-KILLED 30 INNOCENT PEOPLE, 20 OF THEM CHILDREN, AND AT A ****ING ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
-AND KILLED HIMSELF.

And these people are demonizing HIS BROTHER, who had -NOTHING- to do with it and is just as much of a victim in this as the rest, and Mass Effect because said brother "Liked" them on Facebook.

WHAT.

THE.

****.

This is the kinda bull **** that upsets me about situations like these! I'm understanding, but still annoyed by, of rasing a questionable eye at game companies of X-Rated-Super-Ultra-Kill-Gore-Spectacular-3000, and being upset when people who have commited said crimes can be accused of being fueled by said crimes.

But this? This is stupid. Entirely stupid.

[Traab]

Violence has been a part of media for longer than I have been alive. My parents grew up watching three guys beat the crap out of each other with hammers, lead pipes, blow torches, and assorted bits of building materials they found close at hand when they got annoyed with each other. Violence was shown to be funny, it was played for laughs, and yet I dont recall hearing about any massive outbreaks of construction material based violence for that time frame. Its not the media. Its the environment these kids are raised in. The lessons they learn in life, and their own screwed up mentalities. Stop trying to find scapegoats and accept responsibility.


the show was three stooges btw.

[Mephit]

It's just misinformed and emotional people jumping to conclusions. There's no point getting upset about it.

The article in OP was barely newsworthy, just as it wasn't newsworthy that this person liked Mass Effect on FB, even if he was the gunman. There will always be people reacting to this and blaming all sort of things and people, from media (remember the Dark Knight? :smallfrown:) to politics.
Don't let it get to you.

Also, here are the Forum Rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1) again.

[INoKnowNames]

It's just misinformed and emotional people jumping to conclusions. There's no point getting upset about it.

The article in OP was barely newsworthy, just as it wasn't newsworthy that this person liked Mass Effect on FB, even if he was the gunman. There will always be people reacting to this and blaming all sort of things and people, from media (remember the Dark Knight? :smallfrown:) to politics.
Don't let it get to you.

I know, I know... certainly not like I could really do anything about it..


Also, here are the Forum Rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1) again.

Um.... should I ask a mod if this counts as External/Personal Baggage (even though it's over news) or Real-world politics (including political reactions to gaming) / Graphic violence? Venting frustration isn't worth breaking the rules...

[KillianHawkeye]

The really dumb thing about it is that the violence in Mass Effect (assuming part 3 is anything like the first two) isn't even very graphic. Sure, you're shooting people/aliens/robots--your character is a friggin soldier, that's what they do!--but it's never gory and not really even very bloody. Most of the time, the enemies just fall down or explode when they die.

Anyway, regardless of what game it is, for every example of a player of that game who happens to go and kill a bunch of people, there are a million examples of people who DON'T.

[Scowling Dragon]

This isn't as much to do with gaming as much as it is to do with the level of sloppy rushed headline grabbing journalism thats coming out these days.

Anyway, they are on a loosing battle. In 40 years gamers will be running the news.

[Impnemo]

It is in the hands of politics and lobbygroups (I'm looking at you certain benefactor of firearm users). I won't and can't go further on the matter. Only thing I can say is this: what transpired was tragic and completely outrageous. I detest what happened and sincerely hope change will present itself with respect to firearms legislation.


I agree. We can start by making the schools gun free zones. For The Children. And of course theres the rampant knifings going on in China's schools, so lets be proactive and make knife free zones. For The Children. And...


...Or, we can learn another lesson. That "loonies will be loonies", and have the sane stand ready.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Real world politics is an inappropriate topic on this forum. Please give it a wide berth.