D&D Heartbreaker - Discussion Thread

[Ziegander]

In this thread you may discuss D&D Heartbreaker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264530) (a working title), the madcap adventure I have decided to undertake today. Stay tuned, feel free to ask me questions about what I have planned, offer suggestions, or even offer to help out. Let me know what you think of everything!

Thanks for reading!

[bobthe6th]

So could I guess the spirit points are going to be a way to have a HP against SoDs?

Like what I see so far:smallsmile:.

[Ziegander]

So could I guess the spirit points are going to be a way to have a HP against SoDs?

Like what I see so far:smallsmile:.

Ah, no. The Health Die grants characters hit points, while the Spirit Die grants characters magic points. Magic points are used to cast spells, or to fuel other supernatural abilities. Using them as "HP against SoDs" huh... the thought never crossed my mind... but now I'm considering a mechanic similar to 5th Edition's HP thresholds for certain effects. It could work well... but it might also get a little wonky.

[Ziegander]

Races are up now. Next up will be classes and skills. I'm of the mind that I should probably work on the skills before I get started on the classes, but what does the community think?

I plan to consult TarkisFlux on the matter of skills, since he's gone to great lengths (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2200.0) to make them awesome and more interesting.

[Ziegander]

A bump, but not absolutely a shameless one. Just chiming in to say that for big projects like these I need a some support from the community to keep me going. Also, these holidays are going to be hectic, so even if I don't make much progress in the coming weeks, I hope to earnestly work on this more soon.

If you have any comments or questions, do post them here.

[Amechra]

Are you going with the generally loosely-tied maneuver system you were talking about on Xefas' thread?

With [Fire] and [Good] and [Precision]?

[Just to Browse]

Things:

DEX/AGI SPLITTING: In D&D, splitting Strength and Constitution up made life for a tank suck. With Agility and Dexterity separate now, life could very well suck for rogues and such. I don't like it
CHARISMA: Magic Points are either going to be an absolute necessity to get the maximum potential out of your castings, which means it's going to be an ability tax on characters, or it's going to be so small and unimportant that a player will just dump the stat like they always did. I see no improvement in including this, especially if it can be replaced by the already-understood concept of Wisdom (perception + willpower)
ROUNDING: Rounding up is a great idea.
HUMANS: If feats are anything in this like they are in D&D, humans still appear to be the master race.
GNOMES: Invisibility is kind of awesome, and sort of beats out every other daily power in the racial list. If this wasn't a sad little 1/day ability, gnomes would be the master race of thieves.
SPEEDS: Oh god no, no no no. I understand abstracting movement into squares, but having a 4-range variance in racial speeds? Unless speed is going to play an incredibly important role, you should make life easier on the player and have one speed, two at the most.
DAILY ABILITIES: Dailies are a terrible idea. The reason I look for new systems is so that I can avoid dailies. Please do not use dailies.


My first question arises from the fact that this is so similar to D&D. Races are getting special abilities the way they did in D&D, ability scores operate identically, usage mechanics appear to not have changed, your descriptions indicate that the RNG is going to remain very similar, and even the classes are basically the names of D&D classes....

So might I ask, what is the point of this heartbreaker? Why would I want to play this game instead of D&D, and for that matter why is this any different from a compilation of homebrew races/classes for D&D? I don't see why I should use this instead of just putting together my favorite 13 homebrew classes.

[Amechra]

That's kinda the point of a Heartbreaker?

Or a Hearbreaker, as that is what this thread is called...

[Faerieheart]

Give the Dragonkin another name. Really what race is going to go around calling themselves dragonkin, or catfolk or lizardman, ect. Heck who would call themselves halflings, or dwarves for that matter? This is all nicknames, and often rather derogatory ones at that.

Don't fall into that silliness be creative, lose the outsider perspective. Unless you like being named Apemen or Talls.

Oh and second the dailies thing. They suck bad.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

That's kinda the point of a Heartbreaker?

Or a Hearbreaker, as that is what this thread is called...

Not really. A Heartbreaker usually has at least one really innovative thing that makes people really want to explore that system. Take Legend by Rule of Cool: it's published, but it's really a published D&D 3.5 Heartbreaker, powered by the Track system they use and a bunch of other modifications that make it recognizable as a D&D-inspired system. Take Old School Hack, which has a number of really awesome changes in the system, yet still reads as very heavily D&D inspired.

This does just seem like "System Revision X," and it's a LOT to read for a system that isn't offering us a hook as to WHY we should be reading it.

[Ziegander]

One of my major guiding design principles for this "heartbreaker" is to make the "new car" look the same on the outside but run with a completely rebuilt, more efficient engine. It's not easy to see right now, because only the earliest and most basic rules are up, but I have plans for large-scale changes to how D&D's innards work. It's supposed to look like D&D, but hopefully it plays like something better, something new, different, and more exciting.

Some quick examples of my thoughts/plans:


No skill points. Replaced by degrees of proficiency from Untrained to Master.

Base Attack Bonus is gone. Replaced by Attack Dice (the more you have, the higher your attack bonus and the more attacks you may potentially make in a round).

No spell slots per day. Replaced by Magic Points (MP) which every character gets, and which can be spent to do things other than cast spells like use supernatural powers or activate magic items.


And that's just the beginning.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

One of my major guiding design principles for this "heartbreaker" is to make the "new car" look the same on the outside but run with a completely rebuilt, more efficient engine. It's not easy to see right now, because only the earliest and most basic rules are up, but I have plans for large-scale changes to how D&D's innards work. It's supposed to look like D&D, but hopefully it plays like something better, something new, different, and more exciting.

Some quick examples of my thoughts/plans:


No skill points. Replaced by degrees of proficiency from Untrained to Master.

Base Attack Bonus is gone. Replaced by Attack Dice (the more you have, the higher your attack bonus and the more attacks you may potentially make in a round).

No spell slots per day. Replaced by Magic Points (MP) which ever character gets, and which can be spent to do things other than cast spells like use supernatural powers or activate magic items.


And that's just the beginning.

Can we see THESE things sooner rather than later then? These changes are where you'll really either sell the undertaking, and I'd rather see some idea of how these will work than see a D&D-esque system presented without its unique elements.

[Ziegander]

Can we see THESE things sooner rather than later then? These changes are where you'll really either sell the undertaking, and I'd rather see some idea of how these will work than see a D&D-esque system presented without its unique elements.

Well, the framework has to be laid out before I add to it, and while a lot of the framework is similar to D&D 3.5, I've already changed what the six ability scores are and what they do. The basic concept of the Spirit Die (SD), the magical counterpart to the Health Die (HD), has already been outlined and MP have already been expressed as being a function of Charisma, so there's already some inkling of what's going on.

At Skills, I have now arrived at the first very big breakaway from the D&D 3.5 game. I'll try to hammer out some actual mechanics soon, but I won't ignore suggestions. Actually, I think I am going to stay with skill points, for now, and use a Pathfinder-like 1 rank/level with a bonus to class skills, but I'll give it some thought.

EDIT: After giving this some thought, I've decided to do a hybrid sort of system, with tiers of "proficiency" AND skill points and skill ranks.

0 Ranks = Untrained.
1-3 Ranks = Novice.
4-6 Ranks = Journeyman.
7-9 Ranks = Expert.
10-12 Ranks = Master.
13-15 Ranks = Grandmaster.
16+ Ranks = Legendary.

New rules for this have been added/amended in the original document. Now, off to take a crack at some actual skill descriptions.

[Just to Browse]

I'm going to voice my extreme distaste for Magic Points once again. I really don't like tax-or-dump attributes.

Also, if you sold this as backwards-compatible, it could possibly get more hits--just something I've seen from homebrews before.

[Ziegander]

I'm going to voice my extreme distaste for Magic Points once again. I really don't like tax-or-dump attributes.

I don't understand how you think MP makes Charisma a tax-or-dump attribute. One of my goals for Ability Scores was to make ALL of them important. There are no dump stats. If you have a low ability score, it will meaningfully affect your character. There is much more balance between the scores, and single-attribute dependency is, hopefully, a thing of the past. No more Fighters that need Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, while Wizards need nothing but Intelligence. Now all characters will need two or more solid ability scores to play satisfyingly (barring special circumstances).

Specifically, I needed to make Charisma much more important to the basic rules of the game rather than to individual classes. Part of that was MP, but part of it was also making it modify Will saves.


Also, if you sold this as backwards-compatible, it could possibly get more hits--just something I've seen from homebrews before.

That's not a concern for me. It's not intended to be backwards compatible at all.

[Just to Browse]

If your magic points work the same way as any mana-based system I have ever seen, then the charisma-choice flowchart will go like this:

Do I have good spell abilities?
//if YES --> Do they cost MP?
//--if YES --> Maximize MP until spells are at will.
//--if NO --> Dump MP to spend more on better ability scores.
//if NO --> Dump MP to spend on better ability scores.

If you make spells better than attacks, MP is better than attack stats and the best choice is to dump those. If you make spells equal to or worse than attacks, MP is costly and the best choice is to dump it. You need tight unique mechanics running off MP that are available for all classes if you want to stop a player from entering the Charisma Flowchart, and my opinion is that such a decision will be unhealthy in how much it limits the game.

[Zireael]

I'd love to see the "coming soon" written down.

Well, my mechanics started as a similar idea...