[PF] Summoner's Eidolon - Natural Attacks vs Weapons

[Edge of Dreams]

I'm taking a look at the Pathfinder Summoner class, and trying to work out what different kinds of approaches you can take to building your Eidolon.

First, help me make sure I understand how Natural Attacks work...

If I give my Eidolon a Bite and 2 Claw attacks, then on a Standard action it can attack with either the Bite or a single Claw. But on a full-attack action, it can make three attacks (1 Bite, 2 Claws), with no penalties to the attack roll because both Bite and Claw are Primary Natural attacks. Is that right?

If that's true, why would you ever choose Secondary Natural Attacks like Pincers, when you can just keep getting more Primary Natural Attacks?

In any case, it seems like Natural Attacks are pretty nice for getting lots of attacks per round, though it takes additional evolutions like Magic Attacks, Energy Attacks, and Improved Damage to really get the most out of them (plus however many addtional Limbs, Heads, or whatever else you need to attach the attacks to).

On the other hand, for 4 evolution points you can give your Eidolon Martial Weapon Proficiency and have it wield a Great Sword. True, it won't get nearly as many iterative attacks this way, but its single attack on a Standard Action will be stronger. Plus, you can give it a magic weapon with bonuses and special properties. Martial weapons also appear to have much more Feat support than Natural Attacks.

Is there any clear winner in the choice between focusing on Natural Attacks or Martial weapons for an Eidolon? Are there any major pros or cons to either method that I've overlooked?

[docnessuno]

I'm taking a look at the Pathfinder Summoner class, and trying to work out what different kinds of approaches you can take to building your Eidolon.

First, help me make sure I understand how Natural Attacks work...

If I give my Eidolon a Bite and 2 Claw attacks, then on a Standard action it can attack with either the Bite or a single Claw. But on a full-attack action, it can make three attacks (1 Bite, 2 Claws), with no penalties to the attack roll because both Bite and Claw are Primary Natural attacks. Is that right?

If that's true, why would you ever choose Secondary Natural Attacks like Pincers, when you can just keep getting more Primary Natural Attacks?

In any case, it seems like Natural Attacks are pretty nice for getting lots of attacks per round, though it takes additional evolutions like Magic Attacks, Energy Attacks, and Improved Damage to really get the most out of them (plus however many addtional Limbs, Heads, or whatever else you need to attach the attacks to).

On the other hand, for 4 evolution points you can give your Eidolon Martial Weapon Proficiency and have it wield a Great Sword. True, it won't get nearly as many iterative attacks this way, but its single attack on a Standard Action will be stronger. Plus, you can give it a magic weapon with bonuses and special properties. Martial weapons also appear to have much more Feat support than Natural Attacks.

Is there any clear winner in the choice between focusing on Natural Attacks or Martial weapons for an Eidolon? Are there any major pros or cons to either method that I've overlooked?

Natural attacks are cheaper to enchant. Amulet of might fists cost an arm and an eye, but still less than 6-10 magical weapons with the same equivalent bonus.

Using manufactured weapons is also more feat intensive than natural weapons.

About secondary attacks: they are usually cheaper / deal more damage / have added effects when compared to primary, and with multiattack they are only at -2 to hit instead of -5. Still one of the best options for a natural attack focused eidolon is to stack as many NAs of the same type (usually claws), to maximize the efficiency of feats or other features boosting them.

As a side note: you can do both, maximizing your natural attacks AND using manufactured weapons on top of it. Obviously the aforementioned problems are multiplied.

[grarrrg]

If that's true, why would you ever choose Secondary Natural Attacks like Pincers, when you can just keep getting more Primary Natural Attacks?

Secondaries tend to do more damage.
Pincers have the same cost as Claws, but do 1d6 damage instead of 1d4.
Likewise with Tail Sting and Slap.
Also, the cheapest Primary attack is a Tail Sting, which costs 2 points, 1 for the Tail, and 1 for the Stinger, and it does 1d4 damage.
The cheapest Secondary attack is the Tentacle, which only costs 1 point, and does 1d4 damage.


The other little rules gem that a lot of people pass over (and usually with good reason), is that if you ONLY have Secondary attacks, then they are considered Primaries instead.
Take your Biped, spend 1 point to REPLACE your Claws with Pincers, and the Pincers are now considered Primary attacks. Basically, you can 'double down' on the Improve Damage Evolution.

[Paulcynic]

if you ONLY have Secondary attacks, then they are considered Primaries instead.

I wasn't able to find this passage. May we get the source of this rule?

[grarrrg]

I wasn't able to find this passage. May we get the source of this rule?

It is in the rules for Natural Attacks (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks)

"...If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. "

[Doorhandle]

It is in the rules for Natural Attacks (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks)

"...If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. "

Intresting....

(Suddenly, crabs and Octopi EVRERYWHERE!)

edit: for best efficiency, have a huge eildon with the " energy attack" evolution and 14 tentacles, each doing 1d8 base+1d6 energy + strength, which you can munchkin out with feral combat training and dragon style to add half you strength on top of that (if I remember it right...)

Alternaley, don't change the size or energy for 26 1d4 tentacles, and instead abuse critical feats to constantly blind, deafen, and/or stun your foes.

[AttilaTheGeek]

The other little rules gem that a lot of people pass over (and usually with good reason), is that if you ONLY have Secondary attacks, then they are considered Primaries instead.
Take your Biped, spend 1 point to REPLACE your Claws with Pincers, and the Pincers are now considered Primary attacks. Basically, you can 'double down' on the Improve Damage Evolution.

So does that mean I could have 10 primary tentacle attacks?

edit to notice the edit:


edit: for best efficiency, have a huge eildon with the " energy attack" evolution and 14 tentacles, each doing 1d8 base+1d6 energy + strength, which you can munchkin out with feral combat training and dragon style to add half you strength on top of that (if I remember it right...)

Alternaley, don't change the size or energy for 26 1d4 tentacles, and instead abuse critical feats to constantly blind, deafen, and/or stun your foes.

OH YES. I don't usually like rolling d20s, but when I do, I roll ALL the d20s.

[grarrrg]

Slow down there guys.
You first have to have NO primary attacks. 3 of the 4 base forms have a non-replaceable Bite-Primary.
So you're looking at a Biped with Pincers replacing Claws to start with.

And, more importantly, there's the Eidolon's Natural Attack LIMIT.
A level 1 Eidolon can only have 3 Natural Attacks.
A level 20 Eidolon can only have 7 Natural Attacks.


So at best you are looking at a Biped with (at least) 2 Pincers, and 5 other attacks of some type.
Nowhere near the abusive levels you were hoping for.

[jaybird]

If you want to max out attacks, go Quadruped with maxed out Claws and Pounce. Buy an extra pair of arms and MWP for a Greatsword. By level 7 (or 8?) you can charge, make your iteratives with the sword, then make all your claw attacks at -2 to hit.

:smallbiggrin:

EDIT: if you REALLY want to max out attacks, use your Eidolon as a mount and grab a lance.

[urdjur]

@Edge of Dreams: I'm also currently building a Summoner and have been obsessing about eidolons the last few days. :smallbiggrin: I've been looking at lots of builds and to make a long story short, there's no clear winner between natural and weapons. However, two builds stand out: The quadruped pouncer natural attacker, and the 8+ armed biped "Kali" multi-weapon fighter. Both have ridiculous damage outputs. The Kali build is better against DR since it can wield cold iron/silver weapons etc. but you must spend a fortune on short swords.

Personally though, I think building an eidolon for melee is kinda stupid. :smallamused: Since you can't use your eidolon and SM-SLAs at the same time, I'd much rather use the expendable hp (and often more powerful threat) from a summoned monster. You don't have to build an eidolon that can fight everything - you can just choose the appropriate summon. Instead, I think you should build your eidolon to do things your summons can't. I will be using my eidolon:

*As a pocket rogue, selecting appropriate skills and taking the Skilled evolution. Imagine having Disable Device +15 at level 1 without even sweating it! Also detection abilities when they become affordable (the combination of Scent on the eidolon + Glitterdust in your spell portfolio should take care of most early anti-invisibility needs).
*As a mount. Since I'll use a halfling stealth summoner build, I'll also enjoy flight from level 5. At higher levels once I get the awesome Mind Jar, my trusty "Coatlodon" will provide mobility, stealth and/or protection for my helpless body while I possess my way through a group of foes.
*As an archer. Archery is arguably the most potent combat style in Pathfinder and your eidolon has free increments to Str and Dex, plus feats to spend. I think MWP: Longbow is much more efficient than sinking fully 4 points into what could be had for a feat. You can have a decent flying archer mount by level 5-6, hovering in mid air while you attack with spells and the eidolon fires arrows. This can either be an alternative strategy to summoning, as a back up if you run out of MS-SLAs or as extra fire power through the Summon Eidolon spell (which will also benefit from Augment Summoning). Archery also compensates for your greatest weakness as a Summoner - the antimagic field.

You can have the basics of this build ready at level 5 and just improve it from there. So, don't just build your eidolon to be something nasty. You already have 3+CHA different kinds of nasty each day for free. Make it something clever instead. :smallsmile:

[grarrrg]

@Edge of Dreams: I'm also currently building a Summoner and have been obsessing about eidolons the last few days. :smallbiggrin: I've been looking at lots of builds and to make a long story short, there's no clear winner between natural and weapons. However, two builds stand out: The quadruped pouncer natural attacker, and the 8+ armed biped "Kali" multi-weapon fighter. Both have ridiculous damage outputs. The Kali build is better against DR since it can wield cold iron/silver weapons etc. but you must spend a fortune on short swords.

Only TWO builds?
Gundolon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12152413#post12152413) gets no love...
Oh, come on, you KNEW this was coming sooner or later...

[Seharvepernfan]

I recently built a summoner with a biped-yeti-kingkong type of eidolon, and I came up with the same problem: two claws + rend or a big two-handed warhammer? Well, the warhammer is both cheaper and better, but I decided to go with style (and the DM agreed, so I got some handwaving).

Don't forget, your eidolon gets feats of its own, which it can spend on martial weapon proficiency - no need to spend points on it.

[grarrrg]

two claws + rend or a big two-handed warhammer?

Claws can be put on Legs.
There is nothing saying the Biped's Claws must be applied to the Arms.

That is all.