Buffy vs. Jamie Lannister (Cavemen vs. astronauts thread)

[CowardlyPaladin]

Me and a group of friends have been arguing about this for two days, and I finally want to prove it....by taking it to the internet. Who would win in the following fights


Jamie Lannister vs. Buffy the Vampire Slayer


Jamie is at perfect physical shape. He has full plate armor, a kite shield, his long sword, and a dirk. He also has his warhorse and a war lance.

Buffy has no armor, and as for weapons she has a crossbow with a wooden take and an axe...unless she has some special weapons that she gets through the show? I haven't seen it for a long time


Legolas (From the movie) vs. Spike (From buffy). Legolas has no armor, his two long knives, and his longbow with 40 arrows


Guts (pre Eclipse) from Berserk vs. Drizzt

Guts has his plate armor, his massive sword, and a dagger. Drizzt has his two scimitar, chainmail, a bow and a dagger.

Who do you think would win?

[Traab]

Well, for the record, buffy has a full arsenal of medieval weapons, swords, axes, crossbows, maces, staves, etc. If you want to go crazy, she also has a troll gods hammer, which apparently packs a fairly massive wallop. I dont think she has any armor though. Also, she is far stronger and faster than a human. She has to be to overpower vampires that I believe are stated to be 4x faster than humans. As proof we have seen a few vamps catch arrows in mid flight. So basically, she wins.

Legolas has serious accuracy, so he could put a wooden arrow through spikes heart. Unfortunately, we once again have to realize spike is a master vamp. He is several times faster than humans, so while it isnt impossible, its not going to be easy for legolas to get a clean heart shot if spike knows he is there. My money is more on spike than legolas.

No clue, never seen this guts fellow.

[Forum Explorer]

Buffy wins no doubt. Jamie is one of the top swordsmen in his stories, but he still is within human norms. Buffy fights people beyond those abilities and kills them for a living. She doesn't bother with armor because it wouldn't help her at all.


Legolas. But I'm not as sure on this one. Still he's pretty much the greatest archer so he could get the heart shot. He's also superhumanly quick so I imagine he can act first. Plus he's good at stealth, good eye sight, good hearing. Spike would have difficulty getting the drop on him.

I have no idea about Guts

[pffh]

Problem with Legolas and Spike though is that if Legolas isn't aware of the fact that he needs to hit the heart he might not necessarily aim for it which might buy Spike enough time to get to him with his vampire speed.

[KillianHawkeye]

I totally agree that Buffy can beat any regular guy with a sword (and has done so on numerous occasions). If all else fails, ROCKET LAUNCHER.



As for Legolas vs. Spike, that's a little closer. At the very least, Angel was known to be able to snatch an arrow from mid-air. Even if Spike isn't quite that quick, he'd still be able to dodge well enough to avoid being shot in the heart. If Spike can get into close range, he definitely has this one, but that's still a sizable IF.



Now for Cavemen vs. Astronauts... do the astronauts get to use weapons? :smallamused:

[Susano-wo]

As much as it pains me to do so, I'd have to side with Buffy vs Jamie. He is badassed, but if we are going with fluff(which is a must, especially with live action), Buffy is just too fast. otherwise I'd go with Jaime, in that pointy end would still go in Buffy, incapacitating her (arg, then again, according to fluff she's supposed to be a combat genius :smallfrown:)

Spike vs Legolas is much murkier. Legolas is faster than a human, and could well skewer him easily. He might also be able to sense that spike is a horrible abomination. (also, don't headshots dust vamps in buffy? not just heart hits?) But all that is highly speculative. there is no metric that I can think of to meaningfully judge Lego's ability to take Spike on.

I am only vaguely familiar with Guts

[KillianHawkeye]

also, don't headshots dust vamps in buffy? not just heart hits?

Nope. Wooden stake (or equivalent) to the heart, decapitation, fire, and sunlight. Possibly holy water, although I'm not sure if that's lethal or if it just burns like heck.

[Tiki Snakes]

So, in Order, Buffy, Legolas (Only if Film Version), both relatively comfortably.


As for the third matchup, there's no way I'd bet against Guts, especially if we're talking immediately-pre-eclipse Guts. However, Drizzt being one of the more uh, infamous D&D Tie-in characters, I've no real idea of what he brings to the table but suspect that he'll have enough insane things attributed to him to even the fight up on paper at least.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Here are some considerations

Jamie vs. Buffy

1) Buffy is stronger and faster than Jamie (slightly) but based upon her fighting style as seen in the show I feel that it is both unsuited to fighting a man in armor and while her fighting style is fancy I don't know if is actually applicable in a more realistic fight? Would anybody who knows about martial arts be able to comment on this? Because Jamie is able to take on about 20 fully armed men at once and kill 5 of them before being subdued.

2) I think the question is with Legolas vs. Spike is a) if an arrow goes through a vampire, does it slow him down like it would a human? I mean, he won't die from blood loss but would an arrow through the leg weaken him at all? B) Would an arrow through the heart kill him? Because I think if Legolas can hit spike then he will eventually get the heart

3) Guts is the main character from the Manga Berserk. He is kinda a badass

[CowardlyPaladin]

As for the third matchup, there's no way I'd bet against Guts, especially if we're talking immediately-pre-eclipse Guts. However, Drizzt being one of the more uh, infamous D&D Tie-in characters, I've no real idea of what he brings to the table but suspect that he'll have enough insane things attributed to him to even the fight up on paper at least.

You don't think Post Eclipse Guts is stronger? I mean he has the dragonslayer, the armor and a cannon. For the record, I am more familiar with Dizzt from the book, I don't know his D&D stats, I do know that he is fantastically and has Faere Fire/Levetation/Darkness as natural abilities, but Guts is...well Guts

[Tiki Snakes]

You don't think Post Eclipse Guts is stronger? I mean he has the dragonslayer, the armor and a cannon.

Significantly.

What I mean is, immediately pre-eclipse compared to Guts at an earlier point in that arc. Say, post waterfall-training-montage Guts compared to mid-career Band-of-the-Hawk Guts.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Significantly.

What I mean is, immediately pre-eclipse compared to Guts at an earlier point in that arc. Say, post waterfall-training-montage Guts compared to mid-career Band-of-the-Hawk Guts.

I mean like post waterfall training, pre rescue mission Guts. He went on a brief detour

[Kitten Champion]

Here are some considerations

Jamie vs. Buffy

1) Buffy is stronger and faster than Jamie (slightly) but based upon her fighting style as seen in the show I feel that it is both unsuited to fighting a man in armor and while her fighting style is fancy I don't know if is actually applicable in a more realistic fight? Would anybody who knows about martial arts be able to comment on this? Because Jamie is able to take on about 20 fully armed men at once and kill 5 of them before being subdued.

I think you're underestimating Buffy here, she's a literal superhuman who fights monsters equally above the mundane. The only time I remember her having any problem with vanilla humans was when she was shot... and that was just an inconvenience.

There are traces of various martial arts styles in Buffy -- Tae Kwon Do especially -- but it's largely just flashy choreography if observed critically. Presumably, at least on paper, she's proficient in various fighting styles, which puts her in a better position than someone from a counterpart 16th century Britain who has a narrow concept of violence.


Here are some considerations
2) I think the question is with Legolas vs. Spike is a) if an arrow goes through a vampire, does it slow him down like it would a human? I mean, he won't die from blood loss but would an arrow through the leg weaken him at all? B) Would an arrow through the heart kill him? Because I think if Legolas can hit spike then he will eventually get the heart


Legolas has the tendency to shoot several arrows in rapid succession, I suspect the heart would be among his targets when he tries to pin-cushion Spike. I don't know what a headshot by an arrow would do, I don't recall it coming up. Sure vampires don't use most of their physical organs -- like their-pulmonary or circulatory system -- but I think their brains are still used for some non-mystical biological purposes.

[Tebryn]

I mean like post waterfall training, pre rescue mission Guts. He went on a brief detour

Then it's no contest. Guts takes on the God Hand and the Apostles of varying strength during the Eclipse. He's the personification of vengeful wrath in a universe whose sole deity is powered by human suffering and sorrow. Driz'zt is supposed to be a powerful character but....I would easily put most of the Apostles well above a 20 challenge rating.

[Susano-wo]

Nope. Wooden stake (or equivalent) to the heart, decapitation, fire, and sunlight. Possibly holy water, although I'm not sure if that's lethal or if it just burns like heck.


I guess I was figuring arrow through the brain to be equiv to decap...but if its not so much kill the brain the vamp dies as the specific act of decapitation(not nearly encyclopedic with buffy knowledge :P), then yeah, Legolas is gonna have a hard time unless he knows to shoot through the heart.

[Eakin]

So... you have seen the episode of Angel that raised the "Caveman vs. Astronaut" question, right? Because Fred answered that question QUITE DEFINITIVELY by the end of it...


Cavemen win. Of course the cavemen win.

[Selrahc]

Because Jamie is able to take on about 20 fully armed men at once and kill 5 of them before being subdued.

Buffy has fought worse odds than this.

I think the kicker for this is the Knights of Byzantium fight. Without that, I'd have some questions as to just how well Buffy can fight armoured soldiers. But since she's proven that she can dispatch them with gusto in industrial quantities, this isn't really a hard question.

I imagine Jaime could at least put on a good show, putting the armour in between him and death on multiple occasions. But Buffy can ultimately just smash right through the armour if she gets a good hit. If she gets the scythe of the slayer? It wouldn't even have to be a terribly good hit.

[Traab]

Yeah the biggest issue with buffy is, the show didnt have a huge budget for special effects like actually showing her moving significantly faster than human standards, it was basically all saved for vamp faces and dusting. So she doesnt look all that impressive. All we have to go on is the word of god type stuff where we learn that buffyverse vamps are I think roughly 4x faster and stronger than people and she is strong and fast enough to match them, if not exceed them. She has fought and killed VAMPIRES wearing armor and with swords. Lannister may be the bruce lee of sword fighting, but in the end he is still human. He will block a sword swing and get plowed into the ground by the sheer force behind it.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah the biggest issue with buffy is, the show didnt have a huge budget for special effects like actually showing her moving significantly faster than human standards, it was basically all saved for vamp faces and dusting. So she doesnt look all that impressive. All we have to go on is the word of god type stuff where we learn that buffyverse vamps are I think roughly 4x faster and stronger than people and she is strong and fast enough to match them, if not exceed them.

Yeah, it's mentioned several times that Buffy is actually STRONGER than vampires. And not just average, run-of-the-mill vampires, either. She is at least stronger than Angel. The only vampires that might exceed her physically would be ancient vampires like the Master, or the Uber-Vamps (which she still beat in hand-to-hand combat).

I dunno for sure about speed, but I'm guessing it's about the same ratio.

[Water_Bear]

Does Buffy get the Scythe? That thing is easily the most powerful weapon on the show, including the rocket launcher, and is attuned to the power of the Slayer.

[industrious]

I think that a key moment in the Buffy vs. Jamie fight would be the fact that she's able to actually catch Angel's sword when they're fighting. And Angel is, at least on paper, stronger/faster than any human ought to be.

[Lamech]

I think that a key moment in the Buffy vs. Jamie fight would be the fact that she's able to actually catch Angel's sword when they're fighting. And Angel is, at least on paper, stronger/faster than any human ought to be.
Yeah, Jamie's screwed. Buffy won't kill him, but she's going to hand him his ass. She can catch a sword. What exactly is he supposed to do about that?

[Aotrs Commander]

Spike verses Legolas is actually a rarity in a verses thread - something that actually could be a fairly even (or at least close) match up... I really wouldn't care to hazard a guess on that.

Never heard of this Jamie fellow, but I'm inclinded to agree on Buffy if he's "merely" a highly skilled human combatant.

Guts verses Drizzt? Well, in a perfect world, they'd kill each other... Aside from that... I'd probably say Guts (whom my entirely knowledge of comes form HBI2K's Berserk Abriged series...!), on the basis Drizzt is not a primary spellcaster, though depending on how closely (and what edition) you cleave to D&D mechanics, it might take him a while to dig throuh Drizzt's hit points. (Then again, you could knobble Drizzt at fairly low-level with care in BG1, so...!)

[snoopy13a]

Jaime Lannister is on a war horse, and he knows how to run down foot soldiers on one. I don't recall Buffy fighting a mounted opponent. So, I don't think it is a slam dunk for Buffy.

I think Spike has the edge on Legolas. He fights almost as well as a slayer (he's defeated two slayers but it is hinted that the slayers were weary of fighting vamps and tanked). Of course, Legolas can win with one good shot. So, I think Spike has the edge but not by much.

On a side note, holy water is lethal to vampires if consumed--Buffy once tricked a vampire into drinking some--but I'm not sure how much of it one needs to kill a vampire via splashing or dunking.

[Selrahc]

I don't recall Buffy fighting a mounted opponent. So, I don't think it is a slam dunk for Buffy.

Knights of Byzantium from season 5. Also, Demon Bikers from Season Six.

[Water_Bear]

I'm giving Spike the win against Legolas for two reasons. Firstly, he's caught arrows and crossbow bolts in flight before, so that's not such a huge danger. Secondly, Legolas has never heard of or encountered a Vampire, so he's not going to be able to utilize Spike's weaknesses tactically.

[Traab]

Jaime Lannister is on a war horse, and he knows how to run down foot soldiers on one. I don't recall Buffy fighting a mounted opponent. So, I don't think it is a slam dunk for Buffy.

I think Spike has the edge on Legolas. He fights almost as well as a slayer (he's defeated two slayers but it is hinted that the slayers were weary of fighting vamps and tanked). Of course, Legolas can win with one good shot. So, I think Spike has the edge but not by much.

On a side note, holy water is lethal to vampires if consumed--Buffy once tricked a vampire into drinking some--but I'm not sure how much of it one needs to kill a vampire via splashing or dunking.

I believe holy water works like highly nasty acid would to us. Lethal if ingested. Painful as hell to get a faceful of, but unless you fall into a tank of it, its unlikely to directly kill. Personally, I liked the idea a fanfic author came up with. Find a nest, get some holy water, and a fogger. Seal the exits and send a holy mist into the place to at least weaken the guys if not outright kill them.

Someone mentioned headshots from legolas. I dont think it would directly kill spike, but it would drop him on his ass. Think instant coma as long as the arrow is in him. They feel injuries just like anything else. Sever a tendon and they lose the use of that limb till it heals. But the directly lethal options are shorter. As for how long it takes to heal, thats a big who the hell knows. Its rare you see a vamp in the series survive with an injury, and angel rarely took anything worse than a superficial cut gone next episode.

And yes, the spike/legolas matchup might be awfully close. Spike is way faster than what legolas is used to shooting, and I bet he would take an arrow to the lung if it meant he could finish closing the gap and tear out his throat in return.

[Forum Explorer]

I'm giving Spike the win against Legolas for two reasons. Firstly, he's caught arrows and crossbow bolts in flight before, so that's not such a huge danger. Secondly, Legolas has never heard of or encountered a Vampire, so he's not going to be able to utilize Spike's weaknesses tactically.

Legolas is a better archer then humans are though. So faster shots but more importantly more shots put out, faster.

True, but his standard is to aim for critical areas like eyes, heart, lungs. He might not go for it right away but it's on the list. :smallcool:

[pffh]

Legolas is a better archer then humans are though. So faster shots but more importantly more shots put out, faster.

True, but his standard is to aim for critical areas like eyes, heart, lungs. He might not go for it right away but it's on the list. :smallcool:

With metal tipped arrows. The arrows used in Buffy are just sharp sticks so I'm not sure if a metal tipped one would even do the job.

[warty goblin]

Yeah, Jamie's screwed. Buffy won't kill him, but she's going to hand him his ass. She can catch a sword. What exactly is he supposed to do about that?

Punch her in the face with his shield? Canonically head trauma is sufficient to hospitalize Buffy, and the iron-shod rim of a shield certainly counts.

While yeah, this one goes to Buffy, it's worth noting that Jaime's martial training is quite probably better. If Westerosi training is anything like medieval/Renascence training, it's quite complete and systematized. Things like unarmed and unarmed vs armed would certainly be included, and the moves for those are nasty. Buffy is big on punching people in the face for a while and hoping they fall over before she does. Medieval combatives tend to focus on things like breaking bones, up to and including spinal columns. He also will have been training with the best swordsmen in an entire kingdom for years, instead of one middle aged librarian.

Buffy's physical margin probably secures the win. By any reasonable measure of technique Jaime is going to be the better fighter.

[ManuelSacha]

Buffy vs Jamie Lannister

No match. Buffy wins. She used to maul skilled swordsmen in full armor BY THE DOZENS just before the time she went to DEFEAT A GOD.

Legolas vs Spike

This is much more balanced. You'd think the playing field would make a difference, what with Spike probably having a little advantage from up close. But no, Legolas is an exceptionally skilled archer and can put one through your heart even at zero distance.
Which brings me to the real advantage in this fight. Legolas uses wooden arrows (with a metal tip, obviously, for easier penetration). Spike's weak point is wood through the heart.
Sorry, William.

I don't know that Gats character, so I can't tell you who would win the third fight.
But if I had to bet, I'd bet on Drizzt any day.

[Traab]

Punch her in the face with his shield? Canonically head trauma is sufficient to hospitalize Buffy, and the iron-shod rim of a shield certainly counts.

While yeah, this one goes to Buffy, it's worth noting that Jaime's martial training is quite probably better. If Westerosi training is anything like medieval/Renascence training, it's quite complete and systematized. Things like unarmed and unarmed vs armed would certainly be included, and the moves for those are nasty. Buffy is big on punching people in the face for a while and hoping they fall over before she does. Medieval combatives tend to focus on things like breaking bones, up to and including spinal columns. He also will have been training with the best swordsmen in an entire kingdom for years, instead of one middle aged librarian.

Buffy's physical margin probably secures the win. By any reasonable measure of technique Jaime is going to be the better fighter.

I might give him the edge in technique, but only by so much. I am pretty sure one of those word of god abilities is the instant expert status of medieval weapons of all types. She isnt a swordmaster the moment she picks one up, but she is definitely a skilled weapons user. To put it another way, he would be the master of his school, she would be his top ranked student. Throw in her greatly enhanced speed and strength and that loads the scale down pretty far in buffys favor. It would be similar to the fight in the lotr where eowyn is against the king of the nazgul. Buffy is the nazgul lord in this instance. You cant block her attack, it will shatter your shield and your arm. And its even worse because unlike that guy, buffy is FAST as well as strong. Imagine being able to swing a claymore around as quickly and easily as a dagger. With the impact of a tetsubo.

[Eldan]

Another thing: Jamie at his best is an arrogant ass. If he sees a blonde girl a head shorter than he is, he'll start quipping.

[Tiki Snakes]

Another thing: Jamie at his best is an arrogant ass. If he sees a blonde girl a head shorter than he is, he'll start quipping.

He'll lose that battle, too.

[warty goblin]

I might give him the edge in technique, but only by so much. I am pretty sure one of those word of god abilities is the instant expert status of medieval weapons of all types. She isnt a swordmaster the moment she picks one up, but she is definitely a skilled weapons user. To put it another way, he would be the master of his school, she would be his top ranked student. Throw in her greatly enhanced speed and strength and that loads the scale down pretty far in buffys favor. It would be similar to the fight in the lotr where eowyn is against the king of the nazgul. Buffy is the nazgul lord in this instance. You cant block her attack, it will shatter your shield and your arm. And its even worse because unlike that guy, buffy is FAST as well as strong. Imagine being able to swing a claymore around as quickly and easily as a dagger. With the impact of a tetsubo.

The thing is reliance on brute strength and ability to soak up hits isn't good technique. It's the polar opposite really. Between the person without a scratch on his armor and the person who gets smashed in the face twelve times per fight, I think the better fighter is fairly clear.

(In other words, give Jaime Buffy's strength and there isn't a vampire left in the state of California inside a fortnight.)

[industrious]

I think in a quip battle, Buffy would lose, since her modern metaphors and references would be lost on Jamie.

[The Glyphstone]

Technique can only carry you so far against superior physical ability, though. Buffy relies on her ability to take hits because the people she fights are as fast as she is. Against someone who moves at a quarter of the speed of her regular opponents, there wouldn't be any need to soak his blows.

Jaime is the pinnacle warrior of his environment, and possibly as good a swordsman as humans get, but Buffy is legitimately superhuman, and by a significant margin. I don't think he can win this.

[Traab]

The thing is reliance on brute strength and ability to soak up hits isn't good technique. It's the polar opposite really. Between the person without a scratch on his armor and the person who gets smashed in the face twelve times per fight, I think the better fighter is fairly clear.

(In other words, give Jaime Buffy's strength and there isn't a vampire left in the state of California inside a fortnight.)

But the thing is, she wouldnt rely on brute strength and her ability to tank damage. She is an upper level weapon fighter that can also swing her weapon 4x faster and 4x harder than james can as her standard attack. She has to hold back to avoid crushing things in her day to day life. He would attempt to parry or block an attack and SMASH. He would feel like someone just wound up and smacked him with a sledgehammer.

If she had the weapon skills of a standard 2000 california girl then I would agree, her strength and speed probably wouldnt win the battle. But she isnt. She is maybe a step or two down the ladder in pure technique. And when you add all that extra speed and power to all her swings, you have a girl that can likely block anything he tries. She is used to blocking attacks that come at her inhumanly fast. He might as well be standing still to her in a serious fight.

[Tiki Snakes]

I think in a quip battle, Buffy would lose, since her modern metaphors and references would be lost on Jamie.

As that didn't ever protect the otherworldly and/or ancient evils from her razor sharp quipping, I doubt it'd protect Jaime and his ego either. :smallwink:

[warty goblin]

But the thing is, she wouldnt rely on brute strength and her ability to tank damage. She is an upper level weapon fighter that can also swing her weapon 4x faster and 4x harder than james can as her standard attack. She has to hold back to avoid crushing things in her day to day life. He would attempt to parry or block an attack and SMASH. He would feel like someone just wound up and smacked him with a sledgehammer.

I've watched all of Buffy, most of it twice. Parts of it three times. Standing still and punching things while getting hit is pretty much her preferred tactic. She's supposed to not only stronger and faster than humans, but also the vampires she fights, right? If you're stronger, faster and more skilled then somebody, how do they hit you just as often as you hit them?

It's also hardly the case that Buffy vampires are so totally beyond humans in speed and strength that people are completely helpless against them. Totally mundane people kill them, if not constantly, then at least fairly frequently. Giles and Co. are apparently able to run a fairly effective vampire resistance in that Season 2 alternate universe where vampire Willow rocks the leather corset. Giles is, again, a middle-aged librarian and scholar, not generally demographics known for their rugged combat abilities.

The Initiative is drug-boosted, and does OK. Their preferred tactic, judging by the end of Season 5, also seemed to be standing there and hitting things, and although they were losing, it wasn't the bloodbath route your description of vampire power would dictate. The paranormal spec-ops team Riley joins after that is in all probability not getting soaked in drugs, and appears quite effective. That's just very fit, well trained humans.

Dawn, a (physically) ordinary teenage girl whose workout routine appears to consist of being a sort of annoyance singularity, kills a vampire at one point. With a #2 pencil. I hated that part too, but it undeniably happened. Now excuse me while I drink heavily.


If she had the weapon skills of a standard 2000 california girl then I would agree, her strength and speed probably wouldnt win the battle. But she isnt. She is maybe a step or two down the ladder in pure technique. And when you add all that extra speed and power to all her swings, you have a girl that can likely block anything he tries. She is used to blocking attacks that come at her inhumanly fast. He might as well be standing still to her in a serious fight.
Again, the skills she actually exhibits on the show suggest less technique, more reliance on massive resistance to getting punched in the face. I get that they didn't have the budget for seriously complicated special effects or martial arts, but dodging doesn't seem that hard a thing to film.

Now giving her the benefit of the doubt on the things they couldn't film (superspeed, etc), I've already said she would win. I don't see any reason to extend this benefit of the doubt to things they could have done such as showing her actually being a better, and not simply tougher, fighter.

[Starbuck_II]

Dawn, a (physically) ordinary teenage girl whose workout routine appears to consist of being a sort of annoyance singularity, kills a vampire at one point. With a #2 pencil. I hated that part too, but it undeniably happened. Now excuse me while I drink heavily.


You missed where it showed that Dawn was a clone of Buffy. So she was a slayer as well (untrained though).

[Tavar]

I believe it's implied that wood pierces the heart area on Vampires much more easily than one would think, given the substances involved.

I thought that the Whole 'Dawn is a Slayer' thing was quashed in the last season?

[warty goblin]

I believe it's implied that wood pierces the heart area on Vampires much more easily than one would think, given the substances involved.

I thought that the Whole 'Dawn is a Slayer' thing was quashed in the last season?

Indeed. Since they activated all the potentials, and Dawn didn't become a Slayer, it can reasonably be surmised she isn't a Slayer, activated or otherwise.

Dear god, that reminded me how much I hate the end - by end I mean the last two thirds - of Season 7. It's like they bundled every stupid thing from the last six seasons together, added a villain who's primary power was being ineffectually annoying, seasoned with extra dumbness about Believing In People, unleashed the worst aspects of Whedon Feminism, and turned the whole thing up to eleven. MORE ALCOHOL!

[Traab]

I've watched all of Buffy, most of it twice. Parts of it three times. Standing still and punching things while getting hit is pretty much her preferred tactic. She's supposed to not only stronger and faster than humans, but also the vampires she fights, right? If you're stronger, faster and more skilled then somebody, how do they hit you just as often as you hit them?

It's also hardly the case that Buffy vampires are so totally beyond humans in speed and strength that people are completely helpless against them. Totally mundane people kill them, if not constantly, then at least fairly frequently. Giles and Co. are apparently able to run a fairly effective vampire resistance in that Season 2 alternate universe where vampire Willow rocks the leather corset. Giles is, again, a middle-aged librarian and scholar, not generally demographics known for their rugged combat abilities.

The Initiative is drug-boosted, and does OK. Their preferred tactic, judging by the end of Season 5, also seemed to be standing there and hitting things, and although they were losing, it wasn't the bloodbath route your description of vampire power would dictate. The paranormal spec-ops team Riley joins after that is in all probability not getting soaked in drugs, and appears quite effective. That's just very fit, well trained humans.

Dawn, a (physically) ordinary teenage girl whose workout routine appears to consist of being a sort of annoyance singularity, kills a vampire at one point. With a #2 pencil. I hated that part too, but it undeniably happened. Now excuse me while I drink heavily.


Again, the skills she actually exhibits on the show suggest less technique, more reliance on massive resistance to getting punched in the face. I get that they didn't have the budget for seriously complicated special effects or martial arts, but dodging doesn't seem that hard a thing to film.

Now giving her the benefit of the doubt on the things they couldn't film (superspeed, etc), I've already said she would win. I don't see any reason to extend this benefit of the doubt to things they could have done such as showing her actually being a better, and not simply tougher, fighter.

I wont deny that the effects dont match up with the official word on relative powers. But something you need to keep in mind is, those times you see xander, or willow, or even giles killing vamps pretty well? That is after several years of combat. In the earlier seasons you watch as xander willow and oz together struggle to take down ONE vampire. I think it was one of the times when buffy ran away from home or was dead or whatever. By the time they are in the final seasons, they have been fighting the forces of darkness on a daily basis for like 5 years. They know what to expect, they know what to do, and they have had a great deal of experience doing it, all while being protected by the slayer.

Another good example is the fang gang, Gunn's crew from the series Angel. Its a large crew of teens and such fighting the undead. They take losses constantly. They setup ambushes, they have weaponry like wooden spear guns, and they choose the time of attack and with everything in their favor they still take losses. Its not impossible to kill a vamp. They are like how you describe buffy, all power and no technique. Most of them anyways. So a skilled human or a group of humans against a single vamp can take them down.

Back to buffy's stand there and take it fight style. I honestly dont see it that much. She tends to only get into that type of setup when fighting that seasons big bad, or a decent sized group of vamps/demons. Hell, even bruce lee takes a few nasty shots while dealing with the army of thugs. She is shown on many occasions training with giles, presumably learning to master her weaponry and fighting styles. So she isnt just running around on instinct, she is trained to do this kind of thing.

The show honestly sucks for consistency. You have some episodes where vamps are flinging people all over the place and showing great strength or catching crossbow bolts in mid flight to show their speed and reflexes, but then you see normal people blocking punches and such and standing toe to toe, (though they generally get pretty beat up before the vamp dusts) So really, its almost like cherry picking superman abilities in a versus thread. You could find an episode that covers whatever strength or weakness you like and point to it as evidence. The entire range from super buffy the magnificent to lady useless.

[Killer Angel]

Guts (pre Eclipse) from Berserk vs. Drizzt

Guts has his plate armor, his massive sword, and a dagger. Drizzt has his two scimitar, chainmail, a bow and a dagger.


This is balanced only 'cause we're talking bout pre eclipse Guts, otherwise Drizzt would die, quickly.
But... didn't Guts get Dragonslayer after the Eclipse?

[Tiki Snakes]

This is balanced only 'cause we're talking bout pre eclipse Guts, otherwise Drizzt would die, quickly.
But... didn't Guts get Dragonslayer after the Eclipse?

Pre-eclipse Guts is weilding a sword that is fairly described as massive, it's on the upper size of human weapons, a true two-hander, a real and ridiculously sturdy greatsword.

He's pretty much capable of weilding it one-handed and swinging it around indefinately like it was made of so much foam.

That's why he's even able to lift, let alone effectively weild the inhumanly proportioned monstrosity of a weapon that is the Dragonslayer. A weapon so horrendously large and indestructable that it allows a mortal to meaningfully threaten pretty much anything.

It's much, much bigger yes, but the sword Guts is weilding pre-eclipse is still a beast by human standards.

[Lamech]

Indeed. Since they activated all the potentials, and Dawn didn't become a Slayer, it can reasonably be surmised she isn't a Slayer, activated or otherwise.

Dear god, that reminded me how much I hate the end - by end I mean the last two thirds - of Season 7. It's like they bundled every stupid thing from the last six seasons together, added a villain who's primary power was being ineffectually annoying, seasoned with extra dumbness about Believing In People, unleashed the worst aspects of Whedon Feminism, and turned the whole thing up to eleven. MORE ALCOHOL!
I do agree with the the worthless villain.

Although fun thing to note about season 7 (and 6, and 5.) Want to know who stopped the uber-vamps/uber-witch/uber-god? White guys! The potentials and Buffy where losing against the vamps 'till Spike saved them. Xander and Giles stopped Willow. Giles was the one to kill the god.

[Chen]

The Buffy TV show clearly couldn't afford showing super sped up people fighting. That's why the fights generally look pretty weak. The fact she caught Angel's sword in one episode and stopped it cold barehanded does tend to show at least the level of strength the word of god says she has. Going by that she very likely kicks the crap out of Jaime just by being so much stronger and faster.

Spike vs Legolas almost certainly goes to Legolas. Buffy vampires still feel pain and react to physical damage (its evident in the episode after Glory beats the hell out of Spike and he's limping around and such). So even if Legolas doesn't get the heart right away a barrage of arrows will likely incapacitate Spike to the point of allowing a decapitation if need be. The arrows will also damage Spike enough that he probably wouldn't be able to close and kill Legolas. The only hope Spike really has is he can snatch arrows faster than Legolas can shoot them or dodge all them to close the distance. I'm going to say that's probably unlikely. The post does neglect to say what weapons (if any) Spike is wielding though. That might make a difference.

[warty goblin]

I do agree with the the worthless villain.

Although fun thing to note about season 7 (and 6, and 5.) Want to know who stopped the uber-vamps/uber-witch/uber-god? White guys! The potentials and Buffy where losing against the vamps 'till Spike saved them. Xander and Giles stopped Willow. Giles was the one to kill the god.

That Xander and Giles saved/stopped Willow's freakout at the end of Season 6 doesn't really bother me, in that it felt rather in keeping with their relationship throughout. Buffy and Willow are friends yes, but Willow tends to support Buffy, not the other way around. Buffy seldom really seems to pay much attention to what Willow's actually into - which Giles and Xander do. That it's Xander who talks her down I think makes more sense given the relationships and the entire premise of the season that the supernatural couldn't solve all their problems.

Giles killing Glory's other half, whatever the hell he was called. Well, that gets a bit muckier snce it goes into the whole 'Buffy's to innocent or whatever to kill dudes' bit. On the other hand, Buffy undeniably defeated Glory, so I'll call that a wash.

Season 7 however jumps the tracks hard. The bit that got me is the whole activating the potentials bit. So it was a terrible Bad Men being Bad thing for a bunch of shamans way back when to infuse a girl with demon powers so she could keep the vampires from killing everybody? OK, I'll buy that. I mean exigencies of annihilation by soulless undead and all that, but not the grooviest thing to do.

So how exactly is it all empowering to turn every potential Slayer everywhere into an actual Slayer? I was under the impression that the show had just spent at least three seasons going on about how hard it was to be the Slayer, and how it destroyed Buffy's ability to have a normal life and there was all the sacrifice and pain but it was her duty nobody else could or should carry such a burden and bladybladyblah special snowflakes. So wouldn't inflicting that on more people be, you know, bad?

Apparently not, because it wasn't done by Bad Men being Bad to Women for selfish man reasons like not having the undead drink all their blood, but Good Women using Mystical Woman Powers to prevent big serious things like the undead drinking all their blood. How silly of me.

And Spike's all screwed up too. Or rather Spike's the bleached blond tip of a screwed-up iceberg that's been cruising along for several seasons by this point. Notice how the one hallmark of the new improved good Spike is that he seems to have misplaced his entire sex drive (along with his backbone) and just wants to cuddle? By season 6 the only 'evil' thing Spike did anymore was to have depraved but totally consensual sex with Buffy, and play cards for kittens. He'd stopped even trying to be a soulless killing machine quite a bit earlier. Oh, and let's not forget that the secondary antagonist seems to be entirely fueled by misogyny. Just so we know he's a really bad guy, not just your run of the mill unleash hellspawn and kill everybody bad.

On the other side of the chromosome isle the only women with anything approaching a libido are Anya are Willow. Willow is perma-lesbian and that whole Oz thing is now thoroughly swept under the rug. Anya spends half the season killing men for being mean to women because Xander thinks he won't respect her enough and leaves her at the alter. Weirdly, this is played as respectful on his part. Faith turns up again, and you can tell she's all good now because she doesn't like naked-time anymore and has less spine than most invertebrates.

By season 7 the mark of a good man is that he's left his junk in a paper bag somewhere, and a good woman is either a lesbian or respects herself to much to have sex with men. Also Buffy is always right about everything, and anybody who questions that is wrong. Somewhere I can't help but feel the show went from having good characters, some of whom happened to be female, to a text on ow manparts are bad and women are special magical creatures.

Damnit, now I've thought about Season 7 again, and I'm all out of wine.

[Traab]

On the other side of the chromosome isle the only women with anything approaching a libido are Anya are Willow. Willow is perma-lesbian and that whole Oz thing is now thoroughly swept under the rug. Anya spends half the season killing men for being mean to women because Xander thinks he won't respect her enough and leaves her at the alter. Weirdly, this is played as respectful on his part. Faith turns up again, and you can tell she's all good now because she doesn't like naked-time anymore and has less spine than most invertebrates.

Interesting comment someone made about willow and her lesbian lifestyle. They pointed out that its not out of character for her. Throughout the series she has experienced something new and obsessed over it. When she first started with computers, she kept at it till she was mega hacker extraordinaire. (I am so proud, that last word didnt need a spell check) Then when she discovered magic she kept working at it till she lost her damn mind from moving too fast and too far. Same thing with tara and being a lesbian. Once she realized she wanted a girl, she went whole hog into being a lesbian. Its not so much that they shoved the whole oz thing off to the side, its that her character is the type to put everything she has in the new thing to catch her interest.

[KillianHawkeye]

The bit that got me is the whole activating the potentials bit. So it was a terrible Bad Men being Bad thing for a bunch of shamans way back when to infuse a girl with demon powers so she could keep the vampires from killing everybody? OK, I'll buy that. I mean exigencies of annihilation by soulless undead and all that, but not the grooviest thing to do.

So how exactly is it all empowering to turn every potential Slayer everywhere into an actual Slayer? I was under the impression that the show had just spent at least three seasons going on about how hard it was to be the Slayer, and how it destroyed Buffy's ability to have a normal life and there was all the sacrifice and pain but it was her duty nobody else could or should carry such a burden and bladybladyblah special snowflakes. So wouldn't inflicting that on more people be, you know, bad?

The thing about this is all the previous stuff about how being The Slayer is as much a curse as a gift gets invalidated when they basically change the very meaning of what being a Slayer is all about.

See, when you are The Slayer, you are supposed to be all alone, fighting the unending hordes of demons and undead. You're not allowed to have a normal life, because the whole world is depending on you and ONLY you. And chances are almost certain that you're going to have an extremely short and violent life.

However, once you stop being The Slayer and become One Slayer amongst Many, everything changes. You now have a group to which you belong, people who can help you, people who understand exactly what you're going through and who can share in the risk and responsibility. When you change from having a single, solitary Slayer to having a community of Slayers, it adds a lot of hope and power and confidence into the equation. All the sacrifice and pain and horror of life as The Slayer has been lessened to a much more manageable level.

[Mewtarthio]

However, once you stop being The Slayer and become One Slayer amongst Many, everything changes. You now have a group to which you belong, people who can help you, people who understand exactly what you're going through and who can share in the risk and responsibility. When you change from having a single, solitary Slayer to having a community of Slayers, it adds a lot of hope and power and confidence into the equation. All the sacrifice and pain and horror of life as The Slayer has been lessened to a much more manageable level.

Of course, you also have to deal with the fact that you just gave superpowers to a bunch of teenagers. I think your overall stress level would actually increase.


Interesting comment someone made about willow and her lesbian lifestyle. They pointed out that its not out of character for her. Throughout the series she has experienced something new and obsessed over it. When she first started with computers, she kept at it till she was mega hacker extraordinaire. (I am so proud, that last word didnt need a spell check) Then when she discovered magic she kept working at it till she lost her damn mind from moving too fast and too far. Same thing with tara and being a lesbian. Once she realized she wanted a girl, she went whole hog into being a lesbian. Its not so much that they shoved the whole oz thing off to the side, its that her character is the type to put everything she has in the new thing to catch her interest.

Not bad, but there's that one episode where she gets hit by a love spell (oh, Season 7, why must even your fillers be creepy?) and tries to genderswap her new crush. You'd think that, if she were really bisexual, she wouldn't have to use magic to justify her feelings.

[warty goblin]

The thing about this is all the previous stuff about how being The Slayer is as much a curse as a gift gets invalidated when they basically change the very meaning of what being a Slayer is all about.

See, when you are The Slayer, you are supposed to be all alone, fighting the unending hordes of demons and undead. You're not allowed to have a normal life, because the whole world is depending on you and ONLY you. And chances are almost certain that you're going to have an extremely short and violent life.

However, once you stop being The Slayer and become One Slayer amongst Many, everything changes. You now have a group to which you belong, people who can help you, people who understand exactly what you're going through and who can share in the risk and responsibility. When you change from having a single, solitary Slayer to having a community of Slayers, it adds a lot of hope and power and confidence into the equation. All the sacrifice and pain and horror of life as The Slayer has been lessened to a much more manageable level.

And it's rewriting the lives of a lot of people against their will. Community or no community, it seems rather rude to throw a bunch of teenagers into a supernatural war they never knew existed. Buffy and Willow in effect create an eternal draft system where the tour of duty is life, and the show acts like this is a good thing.

Now if the show had presented a case that being the Slayer was great, and those scary old shamans were wrong not to activate everybody right away, that'd be one thing. But the show takes the position that the creation of the first Slayer is a definite violation of the person to whom it was done. Apparently screwing up one person's life extremely badly is wrong. But screwing up a lot of people's lives somewhat less badly is good and empowering.

Really about the only three options I can come up with here are:
1) Whedon and Co. were trying to say something about men using women and female empowerment, and just failed miserably at it. Given season 7 as a whole, I'd buy that.
2) They just needed some sort of ending, and this one floated to the top of the list. Given season 7 as a whole, I'd buy that too.
3) Temporary insanity. Given season 7 as a whole, this also seems plausible. Given what the wiki says about the comics after the show, I'm willing to up this to permanent insanity.


Of course, you also have to deal with the fact that you just gave superpowers to a bunch of teenagers. I think your overall stress level would actually increase.

Particularly since, as demonstrated by Faith, it's not like they're all gonna be nice people.



Not bad, but there's that one episode where she gets hit by a love spell (oh, Season 7, why must even your fillers be creepy?) and tries to genderswap her new crush. You'd think that, if she were really bisexual, she wouldn't have to use magic to justify her feelings.
You know, I'd managed to forget that one. Not remembering that episode was a better place. There were puppies and butterflies.

[The_Jackal]

Who do you think would win?

This is a joke, right? Buffy takes it at a walk.

[Killer Angel]

It's much, much bigger yes, but the sword Guts is weilding pre-eclipse is still a beast by human standards.

Indeed, he only waves with one hand, a big 2h sword, easily as it were a dagger...

[Traab]

Of course, you also have to deal with the fact that you just gave superpowers to a bunch of teenagers. I think your overall stress level would actually increase.



Not bad, but there's that one episode where she gets hit by a love spell (oh, Season 7, why must even your fillers be creepy?) and tries to genderswap her new crush. You'd think that, if she were really bisexual, she wouldn't have to use magic to justify her feelings.

Im not saying she is bisexual, I am saying she pretty much obsesses over whatever has her current interest. I honestly dont recall the episode you are talking about, so I cant even try to defend it or argue against it or whatever. My comment was less about her orientation and more about why oz became out of sight out of mind. Willow found her new "thing" and thats what she is going to spend all her time working on. Unless something else comes along that grabs her attention.

[Mewtarthio]

Im not saying she is bisexual, I am saying she pretty much obsesses over whatever has her current interest. I honestly dont recall the episode you are talking about, so I cant even try to defend it or argue against it or whatever. My comment was less about her orientation and more about why oz became out of sight out of mind. Willow found her new "thing" and thats what she is going to spend all her time working on. Unless something else comes along that grabs her attention.

Her new "thing"? Do you realize what that makes Willow sound like?

[Lamech]

And it's rewriting the lives of a lot of people against their will. Community or no community, it seems rather rude to throw a bunch of teenagers into a supernatural war they never knew existed. Buffy and Willow in effect create an eternal draft system where the tour of duty is life, and the show acts like this is a good thing. What draft system? As far as I can tell the Slayers simply get much healthier and physically fit. The Watchers Council does the actual drafting. (Which now doesn't exist.)


Now if the show had presented a case that being the Slayer was great, and those scary old shamans were wrong not to activate everybody right away, that'd be one thing. But the show takes the position that the creation of the first Slayer is a definite violation of the person to whom it was done. Apparently screwing up one person's life extremely badly is wrong. But screwing up a lot of people's lives somewhat less badly is good and empowering.Eh, Buffy takes that position*, but questions herself about if it really was a bad thing. That isn't exactly a sound indictment that being a Slayer is a bad thing. What was clearly shifty is the drafting of someone and making them fight for you instead of going out on the front lives yourself.

*Well it was really in reference to a second power up and becoming Slayer tier two.



Of course, you also have to deal with the fact that you just gave superpowers to a bunch of teenagers. I think your overall stress level would actually increase.
Umm... why? I'm not sure how being a really great athlete would change the stress level in and of itself. Sure if people start expecting you to go on to the Olympics and train real hard it might be a problem, but that isn't the athletics/superpowers itself. itself.

[Traab]

Her new "thing"? Do you realize what that makes Willow sound like?

Someone who finds a new interesting something and devotes all her attention towards it? Magic, computers, love. Each time she found something awesome she devoted herself to the pursuit of that something. Usually with the intent to be the best at it as soon as possible. When she got into computers she quickly became a damn good hacker, totally ignoring the danger of the fbi showing up one day and making her vanish. Then she saw how awesome magic could be, and devoted everything she had until she managed to become a witch as powerful as your above average coven. Then she met tara and the two were almost inseparable. Tara had her own issues, and willow was really into the whole girlfriend and being in love thing, so that became her new focus. When she was starting to mess up at being the bestest girlfriend in the entire world, she even tried to use magic to "fix" things.

[Mewtarthio]

What draft system? As far as I can tell the Slayers simply get much healthier and physically fit. The Watchers Council does the actual drafting. (Which now doesn't exist.)

There's no conscription per se, but the new Slayers are involved even without the Council. We know that Slayers get prophetic dreams, for instance, and that fate seems to arrange for them to end up near supernatural hotspots. Also, Phase 1 of just about every evil plan in the series is either "Kill the Slayer" or "Inflict extreme emotional harm on the Slayer to get her distracted"; once the new rules of the Slayer mantle get known, demons are going to have an even bigger incentive to kill them while they're young.


Umm... why? I'm not sure how being a really great athlete would change the stress level in and of itself. Sure if people start expecting you to go on to the Olympics and train real hard it might be a problem, but that isn't the athletics/superpowers itself. itself.

I wasn't referring to the stress of the Slayers themselves (though I've covered that above), I just meant that you've given superpowers to a bunch of teenagers. That can't possibly end well. When Willow triggers the Scythe, we see Potentials all over the world becoming Slayers. Not just the ones under Buffy's care; all of them. That's a whole bunch of girls all over the world who suddenly find themselves superhumanly fast, strong, and resilient.

With the Council gone, there's no one who can tell them what's going on. The Watchers may have been cold and even ruthless at times, but they at least got the Slayers into the fight and taught them their significance. Post Season 7, the nicest people who can fill that role are clandestine (para)military organizations like the Initiative for whom the fight against the Forces of Darkness is a secondary concern. Most of them will probably run into the bad guys first, or just go rogue a la Faith and become the bad guys.

As for the girls that Buffy does manage to get under her wing, they're teenagers. Not the most emotionally stable group, plus most of them probably had lives of their own before the First Evil targeted them. Buffy basically has to manage her own child army with no infrastructure whatsoever, and Season 7 made it pretty clear that she's a terrible military leader.

[Tavar]

I thought at least part of the idea was that, right then, at that moment, they were kind of out of options and needed the extra muscle, and so put off worrying about the consequences until they knew there would be consequences.

[Traab]

Im pretty sure that gets covered in the comic series that picks up where the tv show ends. They basically sort of reform the watchers and go pickup these girls. I honestly cant tell specifics as I havent read it. Only heard about it. But I do agree, the whole "wake up all potentials" plan was a bad one. Awaken all the potentials in sunnydale sure, they are the ones actually fighting. Then, if you really want to form your super group, go looking for the potentials and make the offer to juice them up.

[Tavar]

I doubt they had the option. Well, I mean, of course they could have done it, it is fiction after all. But in the structure it seems it was kind of an all or nothing deal. Maybe they could have made a totally new empowerment spell that was localized, but that doesn't seem like it would be an easy thing.

[Starbuck_II]

As for the girls that Buffy does manage to get under her wing, they're teenagers. Not the most emotionally stable group, plus most of them probably had lives of their own before the First Evil targeted them. Buffy basically has to manage her own child army with no infrastructure whatsoever, and Season 7 made it pretty clear that she's a terrible military leader.

Yeah, Xander is the military leader: remember he killed 8 "ghouls" by himself =the episode where zombie-ish jocks dudes awakened, stole a car, grabbed Xander then planned to blow up the school. He signle handlely took them all out. And he is normal. No superpowers or anything. Badass normal moment.

Remember he still has faint memories of when he was an army commander from Halloween episode.

The First knew this so she took out his eye so he wouldn't do the leader thing.

[Traab]

Yeah, Xander is the military leader: remember he killed 8 "ghouls" by himself =the episode where zombie-ish jocks dudes awakened, stole a car, grabbed Xander then planned to blow up the school. He signle handlely took them all out. And he is normal. No superpowers or anything. Badass normal moment.

Remember he still has faint memories of when he was an army commander from Halloween episode.

The First knew this so she took out his eye so he wouldn't do the leader thing.

Well too be fair, those were zombies, I dont think they had anything special beyond being dead and yet still walking and talking. And Caleb poked out his eye probably due to the One-Who-Sees thing. Basically, xander does have a gift. He is able to see things that others overlook. As he put it in a fanfic, He is the guy who points out the obvious, that everyone else overlooks. His whole deal is basically being the heart of the team. Everyone else has their own superpowers, he is joe normal who fixes the windows, fetches the snacks, and keeps everyones spirits up. As well as saving the day from time to time. Evil willow, zombie bomb makers, facing down angelus outside buffys hospital room, im sure there are a few others.

[snoopy13a]

The show hit its peak during season 4.

Season 4 had:

1) Parker, the greatest supporting character ever :smallamused:
2) Drunken Cave-Buffy
3) Frat parties
4) The weird werewolf chick and her fling with Oz
5) The suspense of Willow and Tara--> outside of implied building romance, we thought during season 4 that Tara was a demon. It wasn't until later that it was revealed that Tara only thought she was a demon (season 6 maybe?, I was moving around during season 6 so I missed a lot of those episodes).
6) Anya given a more prominent role
7) Spike's misadventures with the computer chip (the Thanksgiving episode is a good one)
8) The hush episode. The only episode that rivals it is the musical one
9) The orgasm-wall episode
10) The Jonathan-as-a-superhero episode. They even changed the intro to accomodate Jonathan's hero status

The only things bad about season 4 was the cheese episode. That was a bit of a curveball although it did introduce the first slayer. Also, I missed Cordy.

Season 3 is up there too. The mayor was great. I didn't even mind Season 5 as I liked Dawn.

[Starbuck_II]

The show hit its peak during season 4.

Season 4 had:

1) Parker, the greatest supporting character ever :smallamused:
2) Drunken Cave-Buffy
3) Frat parties
4) The weird werewolf chick and her fling with Oz
5) The suspense of Willow and Tara--> outside of implied building romance, we thought during season 4 that Tara was a demon. It wasn't until later that it was revealed that Tara only thought she was a demon (season 6 maybe?, I was moving around during season 6 so I missed a lot of those episodes).
6) Anya given a more prominent role
7) Spike's misadventures with the computer chip (the Thanksgiving episode is a good one)
8) The hush episode. The only episode that rivals it is the musical one
9) The orgasm-wall episode
10) The Jonathan-as-a-superhero episode. They even changed the intro to accomodate Jonathan's hero status

The only things bad about season 4 was the cheese episode. That was a bit of a curveball although it did introduce the first slayer. Also, I missed Cordy.

Season 3 is up there too. The mayor was great. I didn't even mind Season 5 as I liked Dawn.

Nah, I didn't like Tara: Oz & Wililow 4ever!
That werewolf episode meant that Oz and her were broken up forever. :smallfrown:

[warty goblin]

I doubt they had the option. Well, I mean, of course they could have done it, it is fiction after all. But in the structure it seems it was kind of an all or nothing deal. Maybe they could have made a totally new empowerment spell that was localized, but that doesn't seem like it would be an easy thing.

In Buffy the Vampire Slayer, magic is capable of exactly one thing: whatever the writers need to to be capable of for their plot to mostly hold together.

[HamHam]

Im pretty sure that gets covered in the comic series that picks up where the tv show ends. They basically sort of reform the watchers and go pickup these girls. I honestly cant tell specifics as I havent read it. Only heard about it. But I do agree, the whole "wake up all potentials" plan was a bad one. Awaken all the potentials in sunnydale sure, they are the ones actually fighting. Then, if you really want to form your super group, go looking for the potentials and make the offer to juice them up.

It was kind of an all or nothing deal.

But while Season 8 pretty much proves that it was a terrible idea (what with all the ones that die horribly or go evil and the fact that this seems to lead inevitably to Buffy having broken the Slayer line and being the last for hundreds of years), lets not forget that really it's all Willow's fault for breaking the laws of nature bringing Buffy back and creating the whole situation in the first place.

On a slightly different note, the more generous interpretation of Willow is that Tara's insane self-confidence issues pushed Willow to deny being more or less bisexual in an effort to make Tara worry less.

Finally, on the OP, Buffy wins because super-human beats regular human, unless the human is significantly more skilled or whatever and Buffy is not half bad. Though it does kind of depend on when in the timeline you look at since not only does Buffy go from being barely competent to a hardened veteran, but at various times goes anywhere from being depowered to being literally Super Man.

Legolas vs Spike... I think that if faced with an elf with a bow at range, Spike would just run away. Unless there is some important reason not to in which case Spike has shown that he can beat just about anything through force of will.

[KillianHawkeye]

Legolas vs Spike... I think that if faced with an elf with a bow at range, Spike would just run away. Unless there is some important reason not to in which case Spike has shown that he can beat just about anything through force of will.

Yeah, Spike generally wins for no better reason than he just wanted it more. And Spike would want it more than Legolas.

[Starbuck_II]

It was kind of an all or nothing deal.

But while Season 8 pretty much proves that it was a terrible idea (what with all the ones that die horribly or go evil and the fact that this seems to lead inevitably to Buffy having broken the Slayer line and being the last for hundreds of years), lets not forget that really it's all Willow's fault for breaking the laws of nature bringing Buffy back and creating the whole situation in the first place.

That line was broken when Xander saved her life when the Master drowned her. Remember she counted as dead and thus another slayer was started (I liked her too, with her Mr. Pointy stake).
Xander does the impossible: although it would have been a very different show had he not saved her. For some reason Buffy thanked Angel...

[SoC175]

With metal tipped arrows. The arrows used in Buffy are just sharp sticks so I'm not sure if a metal tipped one would even do the job.As long as the wooden shaft also reaches the heart it shouldn't matter that some metal got their first.

As for Buffy vs. Jaime: Leaving the too low special effects budget of the show aside, she should be strong enough to just punch through his shield and still hit his plate hard enough to dent it so deep as to crush his rips, lung and heart and create a opposite dent on the backside of his plate.

[HamHam]

That line was broken when Xander saved her life when the Master drowned her. Remember she counted as dead and thus another slayer was started (I liked her too, with her Mr. Pointy stake).
Xander does the impossible: although it would have been a very different show had he not saved her. For some reason Buffy thanked Angel...

Given that it kept going even after that to Faith, that probably had little impact. But the fact is that Fray (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fray) appears to be the canonical future. What exactly causes no new Slayers for the next couple centuries is not definitive afaik, but the inevitability of it seems inescapable.

[Lamech]

I'm pretty sure the change to the lack of slayers was caused by the loss of the seed (http://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/Seed_of_Wonder).

[Susano-wo]

After looking at that wiki some, it looks like the activation of the potentials was preceeded by, if not a direct counter to, The First hunting down and killing potentials before they awakened. Not quite the same as Buffy just goin "gee, maybe I should make a Slayer Army so I wont be alone)

[KillianHawkeye]

After looking at that wiki some, it looks like the activation of the potentials was preceeded by, if not a direct counter to, The First hunting down and killing potentials before they awakened. Not quite the same as Buffy just goin "gee, maybe I should make a Slayer Army so I wont be alone)

Well it's pretty obvious just from watching season 7 that it's partly to protect the potentials that are being hunted down but mostly so they actually stand a chance of defeating the army of uber-vamps about to emerge from the Hellmouth.

[Kyberwulf]

First of the Battles. Buffy Hands down, she just has to much magical abilities on her side. If this board has taught me anything, its that Magic trumps mundane all the time.
Side note, Buffy was a horrible leader. Her plan to activate the slayers to help defeat the Ubervamps, would have failed miserable. Had not Angel showed up with the Amulet and the Prophecy about the Vamp with a soul. Spike had to sacrifice himself for that plot to be over. The newly empowered slayers around the would would have been leaderless, and hunted down. If not by people, then by monsters. The only reason Buffy survived so long was cause of Xander, Willow, and other people who helped her. Without that support the other slayers would live even sorter lives.

Legolas Vs. Spike. I think Spike would win. He is a survivor. In the movies, you only see Legolas fight with back up. He is hardly the focus of the big bad monsters, mostly the mooks. Let's not forget the Buffy paradox (Which is, whenever She is around any romantic interests, said romantic interests fighting capabilities get divided by 10x) Seeing how she is nowhere to be seen in this fight, Spikes ability to kick ass would be increased. Also, when not engaged in fighting any of the two nemeses? Angel or Buffy, Spike most often than not succeeds at his goals. Most of the time, even against them he succeeds.

Gus V Drizzit. I don't know who this Guts man is, I will however pick him over Drizzit. If I recall Drizzit is good at slaughtering 1,000,00,000 of Goblins or orcs. Against the real stronger enemies he needed Wulfgar to actually be effective.