What do you have the urge to theurge?

[Jeff the Green]

I recently 'brewed a beguiler/incarnum theruge prestige class, but as you can see from my signature, I like releasing my homebrew in triptychs. So I'm taking suggestions. What two classes have you wanted to blend but had difficulty using official material?

[Akto]

A class i would love to see would be a warlock/Rogue hybrid gets a bit Of Eldrict blast, access to invocations, some sneak attack and also advanced some Of the Rogue skills Like trapfinding and maybe one or two Of the Rogue special abilities

[Darth Stabber]

Beguiler and incarnum were already theurgable via soulcaster, though given soulcaster expects you to focus almost solely on spell casting (with soulmelds falling firmly in the "back up plan" category), where as beguiler is a skill monkey/caster theurge in-a-box.

However I would be interested to factotum theurge'd with a spellcaster. While wizard and archivists are the obvious mix-ins (and honestly the most fluff appropriate), other stuff would work too (though not as well due to massive MAD problems).

[Rubik]

Hah. Mystic theurge and cerebremancer.

How about incarnum and ToB?

[Darth Stabber]

Hah. Mystic theurge and cerebremancer.

Got you covered and then some, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159559). It's a baseclass though.

[eggs]

Artificer/Anything. Granted, artificer is in an awkward place, because a bit of work lets it do just about anything better than specialists right out of the can, but it would be nice to have some lower-op options* to help it mix with things like melee/ToB, warlocks or psionics.

*ie. options that lose a caster level or two for abilities that make it decent at other things, but worse at being an Artificer than it would otherwise be

[Man on Fire]

Something doing divine casting and psionic clash? I haven't seen one for that before.

[erikun]

Cleric/Bard, or really anything/Bard. The Bard gets no love from theurges, either filling in as a poor Sorcerer that doesn't progress their abilities or being used solely for Sublime Chord. It would be nice to have something more than the prerequisite-heavy Fochlucan Lyrist. :smallannoyed:

Also, an actual Psionic/Maneuver class would be nice. It's really a gish rather than a theurge, but mixing two of the best systems with one class surely can't hurt. :smallwink:

[Edit] Now that I think about it, how do you think you could handle a Paladin/Cleric mix? It's kind of an odd request, but I could easily see those two classes mixing together to produce something really nice.


Something doing divine casting and psionic clash? I haven't seen one for that before.
Psychic Theurge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b) is official, and actually rather good for a Cleric/Ardent. d4 HD does kind of hurt, but such a class mix can easily make up for that.

[JeminiZero]

Artificer/Anything.


Cleric/Bard, or really anything/Bard.


[Edit] Now that I think about it, how do you think you could handle a Paladin/Cleric mix?

The Trissociate in my signature may be of interest. Granted its an ambitious base class, instead of a true PrC, and its highly untested.

That aside You might be able to make a decent cleric/bard by asking your DM to allow Cleric to qualify for Prestige Bard.

Also, Cleric/Paladin can be handled by Prestige Paladin, but that tends to lose too many caster levels to be viable.

[Keynub]

I'm casting my vote for Warlock/Spellthief. I've always wanted to mesh those two.

[Cranthis]

I want a viable combination of Spellthief and anything else.

[Darth Stabber]

I want a viable combination of Spellthief and anything else.

Wouldn't that require spellthief to be viable in the firstplace? Aside from spellthief1/caster19 with master spellthief, it just is never as awesome as it seems like it should be.

[Cranthis]

Wouldn't that require spellthief to be viable in the firstplace? Aside from spellthief1/caster19 with master spellthief, it just is never as awesome as it seems like it should be.

It depends on the enemies you fight. I had a spellthief that was extremely viable in a campaign.

[Darius Kane]

Druid/Cleric.

[Darth Stabber]

Druid/Cleric.

Needs some serious features, seriously any druid prc has a lot to live up to, and most don't.

[docnessuno]

Druid / Totemist with strong wild shape focus.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Cleric/Bard, or really anything/Bard. The Bard gets no love from theurges, either filling in as a poor Sorcerer that doesn't progress their abilities or being used solely for Sublime Chord. It would be nice to have something more than the prerequisite-heavy Fochlucan Lyrist. :smallannoyed:

Oh, I agree with this so much. Bard is a wonderful class that would work well with nearly anything in theory, but just doesn't mesh well with anything...

How about... Bard/Dread Necromancer, Bard/Paladin or Bard/Cleric, Bardbarian, Bard/Rogue, Bard/Incarnum... Heck, they could have made a "Complete Bard" book, and I would have loved it. Shame how little they did with it.

[Ravens_cry]

I wish there had been better official support for divine casters and sneakers.
There is a few, but they are terrible! Seriously, arcane casters get a full casting progression one in Core, why not divine?
Barbarian Sorcerer would be fun, think Warhammer Orcs. Though I think it exists to a degree, it doesn't really work from what I hear.

[RFLS]

Druid / Totemist with strong wild shape focus.

This. All of this. Please. You know what? I'll make it. Back later.

EDIT: The Beastshaper



Prerequisites:
Spells: Ability to cast 1st level divine spells.
Feats: Natural Spell
Special: Totem Chakra Bind
Special: Wildshape class feature.

Hit Die: d8
Class Skills (4+Int modifier per level): Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Wildshape Progression| Spellcasting/Meldshaping

1st|
+0|
+2|
+2|
+0| Wisdom of the Earth, Wildform Stacking, Clarified Wildshape, Chakra Bind: Crown, Feet, Hands | +1/day | +1 level of divine spellcasting class and +1 level of meldshaping class

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+0| Claws of Incarnum | Large shapes | +1 level of meldshaping class

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+1| Chakra Bind: Arms, Brow, Shoulders | +2/day | +1 level of divine spellcasting class and +1 level of meldshaping class

4th|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+1| Fast Wildshape | Tiny shapes |+1 level of meldshaping class

5th|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+1| Magical Wildshape | +3/day | +1 level of divine spellcasting class and +1 level of meldshaping class

6th|
+4|
+5|
+5|
+2| Divine Essentia |Huge shapes | +1 level of meldshaping class

7th|
+5|
+5|
+5|
+2| Chakra Bind: Throat, Waist | +4/day | +1 level of divine spellcasting class and +1 level of meldshaping class

8th|
+6/1|
+6|
+6|
+2| Extraordinary Wildshape | Diminutive shapes | +1 level of meldshaping class

9th|
+6/1|
+6|
+6|
+3| | +5/day | +1 level of divine spellcasting class and +1 level of meldshaping class

10th|
+7/2|
+7|
+7|
+3| Astounding Wildshape , Chakra Bind: Heart | Gargantuan shapes | +1 level of meldshaping class
[/table]

Spellcasting and Meldshaping: At the indicated levels, the Beastshaper increases her meldshaper and spellcaster levels. She gains additional chakra binds, essentia, shaped melds, and spells per day as if she had gained a level in the classes to which she belonged to before becoming a Beastshaper. She does not, however, gain any other abilities of those classes, such as new tiers of chakra binds. Note that Spellcasting is at half progression when leveling.

Wildshape Progression: At every odd level, the Beastshaper gains an additional use of her Wildshape every day. At every even level, she becomes able to Wildshape to the indicated size.

Wisdom of the Earth: A Beastshaper is as close to nature as it is possible to be, both in mind and in body. When determining bonus spells and bonus essentia, the Beastshaper may choose to use her Con or her Wis modifier. This choice is not permanent and may be switched once per day.

Wildform Stacking: When a Beastshaper shapes a soulmeld that grants her statistics already granted by her current Wildshape, the two sources stack. For example, if her form grants her acid resist 10 and her soulmeld grants her acid resist 10, she now has acid resist 20. Additionally, if she has claws in her Wildshape and chooses to shape a soulmeld that grants a claw attack, her Wildshape's claw attack is instead increased by 1 damage die.

Clarified Wildshape: A Beastshaper does not gain access to any spells that may or may not be granted by her Wildshape form.

Chakra Binds: At 1st level, you may bind soulmelds to your crown, feet, and hand chakras. At 3rd level, you may bind soulmelds to your arm, brow, and shoulder chakras. At 7th level, you may bind soulmelds to your throat and waist chakras. At 10th level, you may bind soulmelds to your heart chakra.

Claws of Incarnum: Beginning at 2nd level, you may invest 1 point of essentia per 3 character levels into any single claw attack you possess. Each point so invested grants a stacking +1 enhancement bonus to your claw attacks. This does not stack with any other method you might have to invest essentia into your claw attacks.

Fast Wildshape: Beginning at 4th level, you take a move action to Wildshape.

Magical Wildshape: At 5th level, a Beastshaper may Wildshape into the form of any magical beast he would otherwise qualify for.

Divine Essentia: At 6th level, the Beastshaper may choose to sacrifice spell slots in exchange for essentia. As a swift action, the Beastshaper can give up any number of spells for bonus essentia equal to the total of the sacrificed spells' levels. For instance, she may choose to sacrifice 3 first level spells and a 3rd level spell for 6 bonus essentia. As part of this action, she may allocate all of the essentia she gains. The essentia lasts for 1 minute per Beastshaper level

Extraordinary Wildshape: At 8th level, the Beastshaper gains all Extraordinary qualities of any form she chooses to take.

Astounding Wildshape: At 10th level, the Beastshaper's Wildshaping abilities reach their pinnacle. There is no limit on the duration of her Wildshape, and shifting to a new form is a swift action instead of a move action.

[Eldan]

I'd kinda like to see a few more Binder theurges. Binder/anything, really. Tenebrous/Dread necromancer. Naberius/Bard. There's so much potential in the Binder.

[2gig]

I'd love to see a Favored Soul/Warlock Theurge class, but a far as I know, none exists. Favored Soul doesn't normally qualify for Eldritch Disciple because requires Turn Undead, and even if it didn't, the class features are based on Turn Undead.

[Ravens_cry]

Though definitely not for every game, gestalt rules are nice if the whole group really want to play a character based around these ideas and the DM is OK with the higher potential power level.

[Seharvepernfan]

Scout is my favorite class, and swiftblade is my favorite prestige class. I usually connect the two with transmuter.

I'd like a 1-20 scout/transmuter/swiftblade class. I don't really know how you'd do it, but hey, that's what this thread is for, right?

[RFLS]

Just so everyone sees it, I posted the Totemist/Druid PrC as an edit to my first comment. I'll go post it in homebrew, as well.

[Gildedragon]

For paladin/cleric I'd say the Prestige Paladin prc is the way to go.

[LTwerewolf]

I'd really like to see beguiler and factotum for the ultimate trickster skill-monkey.

[Eldan]

Though definitely not for every game, gestalt rules are nice if the whole group really want to play a character based around these ideas and the DM is OK with the higher potential power level.

True, but a good theurge class should offer different things from gestalt. See, the Mystic theurge and its first generation theurge friends only continue mechanics from both classes. But I think a good theurge actually offers abilities that integrate the mechanics of the two base classes. Say, using psionic focus to help you keep your personality while binding. Using incarnum to boost your martial maneuvers. Something like that. Not just both, but something new that combines them.

[ericgrau]

I was gonna say monk / wizard but then I googled up enlightened fist. I need to try that some time.

Hmm, I'd say sorcerer / favored soul with a little less spell level gimp over a mystic theurge. This thread also gave me the idea for a paladin / ranger hybrid, just for the sake of doing it.

[DoctorGlock]

Personally, i've always wanted to see a warlock/binder theurge, the flavors mix so well

[RFLS]

Posted the Beastshaper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14387774#post14387774) over in the homebrew area. If anyone likes it, I can do a few more theurge PrCs.

[Sgt. Cookie]

I'd like to see a Shadowcaster/ToB theruge. Would be interesting to see.

[Amphetryon]

Dread Necromancer/Warlock. :smallbiggrin:

[Ravens_cry]

True, but a good theurge class should offer different things from gestalt. See, the Mystic theurge and its first generation theurge friends only continue mechanics from both classes. But I think a good theurge actually offers abilities that integrate the mechanics of the two base classes. Say, using psionic focus to help you keep your personality while binding. Using incarnum to boost your martial maneuvers. Something like that. Not just both, but something new that combines them.
Perhaps, a good example of that is, say, the Pathfinder Arcane Trickster.

[Tvtyrant]

Mindflayer racial class/Psion theurge bitte.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Warlocks. They can theurge with arcane and with clerics... and that's about it.

I'd love to see a Warlock/Skillmonkey hybrid, kinda like Arcane Trickster with maybe a darkness theme. Something like requiring Darkness and Entropic Warding. Eventually nets HiPS, advances sneak attack, EB, and Invocations, and give it some sniping stuff.

Another I'd like to see is Warlock/melee hybrid, with an ability to charge weapons with EB constantly. Requires Hideous Blow as a prerequisite, basically a throwaway invocation, to let you charge your weapon(s) and make iterative attacks. Alternately, allows you to use EB as an attack action, and can mix it up as you see fit. Something similar to Eldritch Claw, but not.

DFA also need some love. Cross DFA with Dragon Shaman, so you progress auras, invocations, and breath invocations. Give it some other dragon-ish stuff, with a capstone of gaining the Dragon subtype with wings and some DR.

Shadowcasters could also use a lot of love. Shadowcaster/Melee would be interesting, since Shadowcasters lend themselves to gishing it up with things like Flicker, but have a poor BAB.

Shadowcaster/ToB would be made of win and awesome.

Shadowcaster/Warlock would be nice. All day long action from Warlock, with burst abilities from Shadowcaster.

Binder/Warlock would also be interesting... Pact Master or something like that, given that one of the flavors that Warlocks can have is to have made a pact with... something... to get the powers.

Totemist/Warlock would also make for an interesting paring, with the flavor of your 'totem animal' granting you the warlock abilities.

[Sgt. Cookie]

I will probably be burned at the stake for this, but I think a Bard/Truenaming theruge would be pretty neat.

[Amphetryon]

I will probably be burned at the stake for this, but I think a Bard/Truenaming theruge would be pretty neat.

Enjoy your ice cream while you can.

[Eldan]

I will probably be burned at the stake for this, but I think a Bard/Truenaming theruge would be pretty neat.

No, I think the idea has merit. The problem would be making the truenaming part relevant.

[Sgt. Cookie]

I think the first step is to use a Truenaming fix. After that I think that using truenaming to improve and alter Bardic Music would be the best way forward.

[eggs]

Truenaming has a lot of potential as an augment mechanic.

I don't think anyone would argue that Truespeech had a design flaw: it seemed to be calibrated at around a 50% chance to affect an appropriate CR at all.

But if a failed skill check meant that instead of failing, a character's action just had slightly less effect than a level-appropriate action should, and if a successful skill check meant that the character were able to do something better than normally expected at its level, the same concepts and even a great deal of the same mechanics could be recycled into something usable.

In the bard's case, that would probably come into play as buffing (advance as a Bard, but truespeak for additional bonuses, dispel protections or higher numbers) or Enchantment augments (have truespeech raise DCs and CL versus SR, maybe also punch through immunities on a high success?)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I think the first step is to use a Truenaming fix. After that I think that using truenaming to improve and alter Bardic Music would be the best way forward.

How about this:

Truenaming check to be able to enhance Bardic Music (either grant additional bonuses, or use Bardic Music without expending a use.

Going the other way, make a Bardic Lore check to bypass the punitive difficulty modifiers for Truenaming (such as the ramps for increasing difficulty every time you use it), or just plain Bardic Lore check to reduce the DC on your next Truenaming check. Incorporate the fixes into the PrC.

[Psyren]

Personally, i've always wanted to see a warlock/binder theurge, the flavors mix so well

Definitely this, Anima Mage doesn't cut the mustard - too few of its class features actually benefit invoking.

[Cranthis]

I think a druid/cleric one would be awesome. Especially with a few extra benefits should you worship the god of nature (can't recall the name right now)

[Psyren]

I think a druid/cleric one would be awesome. Especially with a few extra benefits should you worship the god of nature (can't recall the name right now)

- Core: primarily Obad-Hai
- Faerun: Silvanus is the big one, but there are some others that focus on certain aspects of druidism.
- Eberron: Arawai/Balinor from the Host, or the Keeper/Devourer from Dark 6 I believe.

[Talderas]

I would like to see a Geomancer theurge that doesn't suck.

As far as theurge classes go, I felt noctomancer from ToM was pretty good (the poor execution of Shadow Magic aside).

[Psyren]

I would like to see a Geomancer theurge that doesn't suck.

Enter it with Sha'ir and you'll be fine.

[Talderas]

Enter it with Sha'ir and you'll be fine.

Spell Versatility is one of the better abilities (IMO) of the class and entering with Sha'ir negates any benefit derived from it since you only have one spellcasting class. The drifts are pretty bland from a spellcaster perspective, though some may be useful to a gish, so the class would still suck since all you're really gaining is potentially a +3 caster level in a type of terrain or +1 in three different terrains over ten levels.

[Psyren]

Spell Versatility is one of the better abilities (IMO) of the class and entering with Sha'ir negates any benefit derived from it since you only have one spellcasting class.

It's better if you're an actual theurge but it's otherwise irrelevant. Switching the casting stat is pointless since you're already SAD, casting in armor would have taken a long time to be useful anyway, and the casting with foci thing is rendered irrelevant by a component pouch. So it's not so much "negating the benefit" rather than just not needing it at all.



The drifts are pretty bland from a spellcaster perspective, though some may be useful to a gish, so the class would still suck since all you're really gaining is potentially a +3 caster level in a type of terrain or +1 in three different terrains over ten levels.

The drifts aren't stellar but they're still untyped, so they stay useful at all levels. The Diplomacy buff in particular is handy for a Sha'ir given their unique preparation mechanic, and there are plenty of other buffs that are handy even for a non-gish - like the ability to cast while in negatives, scent, amphibiousness, speed buffs etc.

The main draw is that Sha'ir, like Sorcerers, get very little class features from staying in Sha'ir. So anything is better than nothing. There are more powerful choices of course, but this is a flavorful one that won't hurt you.

[Amphetryon]

As I recall, Sha'ir have different retrieval times for Arcane vs. Divine spells, so a Geomancer could (potentially) use that to his benefit in corner cases.

[Darth Stabber]

- Core: primarily Obad-Hai

Ehlonna sees a lot more play in my experience. Obad-Hai is a Flan deity (not a god of custard), and Ehlonna is a more wide spread (not necessarily more worshipped, but not belonging to a regional/ethnic pantheon).

[The Shadowmind]

Shadowcaster with Incarnum, they look like each could help the weakness of the other.

[Seharvepernfan]

Obad-Hai is a Flan deity (not a god of custard)

WHAT?!?!

This changes everything!!!

My whole life has been a lie!

[Draz74]

Ehlonna sees a lot more play in my experience. Obad-Hai is a Flan deity (not a god of custard), and Ehlonna is a more wide spread (not necessarily more worshipped, but not belonging to a regional/ethnic pantheon).

This may be a case where "The Grayhawk pantheon" is distinct from "The Core pantheon." Most groups that use the Grayhawk deities, in my experience, aren't playing in Grayhawk; the DM just wanted easy-to-use pre-assembled religious options. And in such groups, nobody cares about regional/ethnic limitations on Obad-Hai, so he gets used more than Ehlonna because (a) he has a more generic portfolio, (b) he offers a greater variety of domains, (c) he is available to more alignments.

[Acanous]

Binder/Truenamer.

Flavour wise it makes a lot of sense. Mechanics wise both are a little lacking. (unless you're using online vestiges, then the Binder is just fine)
Put them together and watch them be about as good as any of the other party members!

[Doorhandle]

Arcane archer/Magus. Spell combat, by default, does not let you use it and ranged weapons (although you could possibly use any throwing weapons that can also be used as melee weapons...)

[White_Drake]

Is PF allowed?

Synthesist Summoner/Warlock Seems cool to me. It's like a 'Mech, except made out of outsider.

Alchemist/Psychic Rogue conatogens mesh (sorta). Mostly just personal preference.

[willpell]

One pet character of mine that doesn't work at all mechanically without a homebrew theurge class: Dwarf Rootwalker Druid plus Copper Dragon Shaman. DS is generally a poorly-designed class, and it's in PHB2 so it receives virtually no support anywhere. I love the flavor but it badly needs mechanical help; theurging it with a Tier 1 class seems like the result might be vaguely balanced.

[Draz74]

I love a lot of the suggestions here.

Rogue/Warlock is cute. Sure, there are effective skillful/arcane PrCs already, but they're all complicated compared with the Warlock's lovely, simple playstyle. It should keep Eldritch Blast damage almost as high as pure Warlock, of course, to avoid going obsolete.

PrCs that advance Factotum abilities could be a lot of fun. I'd kind of rather see a Factotum/martial initiator than a Factotum/(Wizard or Archivist) combo though.

Ooh, a Factotum/Artificer PrC could be fun though. In general, the combos I'd like to see with Artificer are the ones that concentrate on being skillful, more gadget-based than magic-based. A (Rogue or Factotum)/Artificer combo that functions as a better Combat Trapsmith would be awesome.

An effective Bard/Truenamer would be spiffy. Or a working Bard-barian.

Ephemeral Blade is great, but some ToB/psionic theurges that aren't focused on Diamond Mind/Psychoportation are good too. Swordsage/Psychic Warrior would particularly excite me.

Druid/Cleric of Obad-Hai sounds cool. I wouldn't have thought of that one. Druid/Totemist sounds even cooler.

Warlock/Binder is a longstanding need. Warlock/Shadowcaster could be fun too.

I LOVE the idea of a specific PrC for mind flayer Psions.

Dragon Shaman/Druid. Preferably a result that can truly fill the "healer" party role better than either of those classes alone. (Druid is kinda weak in removing status conditions.) I'm ok if it works equally well for combining Dragon Shaman with Favored Soul or Cleric, so I guess Dragon Shaman/divine casting is really what I'm after.

Dragonfire Adept/Sorcerer.

Swordsage/Shadowcaster.

Fey (racial classes) with Druid, Totemist, Bard ... :smallsmile: I don't know whether this would be one flexible Theurge class, or a separate class for each of the three.

Hmmm, when I think of PrCs that I'd like to see "fix" the Truenamer ... other than Bard, the one that really occurs to me is Factotum. That would be awesome. Although Truenamer/Warlock or Truenamer/Crusader or Truenamer/Incarnate could have potential as well.

[Anderlith]

Warlock/ Duskblade, with a channeling eldrich blast

[Cranthis]

Warlock/ Duskblade, with a channeling eldrich blast

+1.

Hexblade/Duskblade combo as well.

[Darth Stabber]

Mechanics wise both are a little lacking. (unless you're using online vestiges, then the Binder is just fine)

I can agree with you 100% on truenamer sucking something aweful (firsthand no less), but binder is certainly not lacking even without the online vestiges. It's a shining tier 3, until you add the online vestiges which jumps it up an entire tier, almost on the back of the summon moster one alone (seriously, the summon monster vestige is that good)

[eggs]

The Binder's weird. Up until level 8 and its second vestige bind, the Binder really doesn't have a lot of force to back its daily focus up. Even weak classes like the Ninja or Monk can often outperform single-vestige Binders trying to edge in on their specialties.

Bouncing off two that were just mentioned, I'd kind of like to see Warlock//Hexblade; it would tie closely to a few of the existing Hexblade reduxes, but it seems like it might be more acceptable for certain games.

[Amphetryon]

Warblade//Totemist is another that would be fun. Mixing Maneuvers and Stances with Incarnum, whee.

[willpell]

Or a working Bard-barian.

There's the Savage Bard from Unearthed Arcana, though that doesn't have the rage of course. But I find this concept hilarious just on general purposes. "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!" "Is he singing or screaming?" "Try your lockpicks, see if they work better. Nope, guess he's in a rage. Oh wait, it was Countersong; I guess I was enchanted. Thanks, Bard-buddy!" "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!" "Okay, now he's in a rage."


Swordsage/Psychic Warrior would particularly excite me.

It practically writes itself. You even have the perfect name for it..."monk".


Druid/Cleric of Obad-Hai sounds cool. I wouldn't have thought of that one.

Seems a trifle redundant, alas.


Druid/Totemist sounds even cooler.

+1; it's rather sad that they didn't think to include that one in MOI. Definitely has to go into Complete Incarnum.


Dragon Shaman/Druid. Preferably a result that can truly fill the "healer" party role better than either of those classes alone. (Druid is kinda weak in removing status conditions.) I'm ok if it works equally well for combining Dragon Shaman with Favored Soul or Cleric, so I guess Dragon Shaman/divine casting is really what I'm after.

Hm...dubious, I'd have to think through the implications. I should note that in my campaign I enforce the "druids must be neutral" strictly, but I've homebrewed dragons to come in neutral alignments, which canonically they never do, so being a neutral DS is a bit more possible in my campaign than by RAW - if you're CN for instance, you're normally stuck with either CE (red, black, white) or CG (copper, brass), so if you want electricity breath you're SOL. But my camp, while kicking Black dragons out of the option by making them NE, also introduces a couple homebrew dragons that are CN (none of the canonical ones fit, though I do say that whites are "more on the chaotic side" compared to reds). So there are a total of 6 options out of 16, rather than 3-5 out of 10, for any DS in my game other than a True Neutral one, which I haven't decided whether to allow or not, but they're definitely impossible per RAW.


Dragonfire Adept/Sorcerer.

Yeah, hard to believe they didn't manage to think of that one. Though perhaps their intent was more that DA should sort of replace Sorcerer for the narrative role of "dragon wizard".


Hmmm, when I think of PrCs that I'd like to see "fix" the Truenamer ... other than Bard, the one that really occurs to me is Factotum.

His name must be the Quintessentialist. He does everything, and does it perfectly, by knowing exactly how - not just Truenames for people and objects, but for actions and disciplines of study, enabling them to simply pronounce their names correctly ino order to master them.


Although Truenamer/Warlock or Truenamer/Crusader or Truenamer/Incarnate could have potential as well.

Crusader or maybe Incarnate could get its name right out of a book by Terry Brooks: "Knight of the Word".

[LTwerewolf]

Gem dragons are typically neutral. You don't need to homebrew.

[willpell]

Gem dragons are typically neutral. You don't need to homebrew.

You do if you think gem dragons are dumb. But point. (They aren't NG or NE though, I don't think.)

[Giegue]

Since I like Necromancy one that I'd love to see would be a Dread Necromancer/Incarnate theurge with a focus on Necrocarnium soulmelds and undead minionmancy, preferably counting it's own class levels as Dread Necro levels for the purpose of undead mastery.(Or at least granting some way to get lots and lots of undead if that won't work out.) Likewise, a Dread Necromancer/Artificer theurge with a "Dr. Frankenstein/Mad Scientist Reanimator" kind of feel would be awesome as well. Another fun necromantic theurge would be a Dread Necromancer/Spirit Shaman for a more naturalistic take on the dark arts.

[LTwerewolf]

You do if you think gem dragons are dumb. But point. (They aren't NG or NE though, I don't think.)

Fang dragon is CN, Faerie is CG, Battle Dragon is NG, Chaos Dragon is C(G/N/E), Ethereal Dragon is TN, Howling Dragon is CE or CN, Oceanus Dragon is NG, Pyroclastic dragons are LE or NE, Rust Dragons are LE or NE, Styx Dragons are NE, Tarterian Dragons are NE or CE.


Plenty of Neutral types.

[Cranthis]

Fang dragon is CN, Faerie is CG, Battle Dragon is NG, Chaos Dragon is C(G/N/E), Ethereal Dragon is TN, Howling Dragon is CE or CN, Oceanus Dragon is NG, Pyroclastic dragons are LE or NE, Rust Dragons are LE or NE, Styx Dragons are NE, Tarterian Dragons are NE or CE.


Plenty of Neutral types.

Iron is LN

[LTwerewolf]

Iron is LN

Thanks, knew i missed one.

[willpell]

Fang dragon is CN, Faerie is CG, Battle Dragon is NG, Chaos Dragon is C(G/N/E), Ethereal Dragon is TN, Howling Dragon is CE or CN, Oceanus Dragon is NG, Pyroclastic dragons are LE or NE, Rust Dragons are LE or NE, Styx Dragons are NE, Tarterian Dragons are NE or CE.


Plenty of Neutral types.

Right, well all of those are dumb to me, hence my homebrew. But none of them are in core or SRD, so the point stands that going only by that, dragons are never neutral, and thus DSes can't be True Neutral. So for my purposes I had to rule otherwise.

[RFLS]

+1; it's rather sad that they didn't think to include that one in MOI. Definitely has to go into Complete Incarnum.

Shameless self plug. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14387774#post14387774) I crave recognition.


Since I like Necromancy one that I'd love to see would be a Dread Necromancer/Incarnate theurge with a focus on Necrocarnium soulmelds and undead minionmancy, preferably counting it's own class levels as Dread Necro levels for the purpose of undead mastery.(Or at least granting some way to get lots and lots of undead if that won't work out.) Likewise, a Dread Necromancer/Artificer theurge with a "Dr. Frankenstein/Mad Scientist Reanimator" kind of feel would be awesome as well. Another fun necromantic theurge would be a Dread Necromancer/Spirit Shaman for a more naturalistic take on the dark arts.

Hmmmmm.....I will begin work on the Dread Necromancer/Artificer Theurge.

[Jeff the Green]

Wow, lots of ideas here. I'm going to begin work on the Twice Bound Soul (binder/warlock) and the Inspired Inventor (Factotum/Artificer). I'll post link to their threads here when I finish them.

Continue discussion, of course. I hope others will be inspired to make some of the other theurges; even if I did have good ideas for all of them, I wouldn't be able to make them all in any sort of reasonable time frame.

[Flavel]

I'd like to theurge a Mystic Theurge with Ultimate Magus.

If your gonna theurge you might as well splurge.

[Lonely Tylenol]

A class that mixes martial adepts with psionics. I don't think that was mentioned yet.

Not terribly interested in a lot of Warlock mixes, as it can PrC into some fairly decent options for mixes by way of arcane-eldritch transparency (PrCs that advance caster level advance all relevant Warlock abilities).

Beyond that, I would like to see a psionic/incarnum mix, and an incarnum/martial adept mix. Actually, of the three, psionic/incarnum is perhaps the most riveting to me: the fluff is very well married together, in my opinion, but mechanically, the two could use better synergy.

[Draz74]

Beyond that, I would like to see a psionic/incarnum mix, and an incarnum/martial adept mix. Actually, of the three, psionic/incarnum is perhaps the most riveting to me: the fluff is very well married together, in my opinion, but mechanically, the two could use better synergy.

You know there's an official psionic/meldshaper hybrid PrC in The Mind's Eye, right?

[ericgrau]

I just remembered a theurge I've been wanting to do but never got around to: wizard/sorcerer/cleric/favored soul/psion/wilder. Alternatively any 2 arcane / any 2 divine / any 2 psionic. The basic concept would be to have a huge spell list, way more than anyone could ever need for combat so you end up with a lot of oddball spells.

[Lonely Tylenol]

You know there's an official psionic/meldshaper hybrid PrC in The Mind's Eye, right?

No, I did not.

Is it any good? (Or does it basically mutilate one, the other, or both?)

[toapat]

I just remembered a theurge I've been wanting to do but never got around to: wizard/sorcerer/cleric/favored soul/psion/wilder. Alternatively any 2 arcane / any 2 divine / any 2 psionic. The basic concept would be to have a huge spell list, way more than anyone could ever need for combat so you end up with a lot of oddball spells.

Uber-versatility is not entirely practical, and StP Erudite already has most every spell printed available to them. As there is an extremely small number of paladin and Blackguard spells cant be obtained without Paladin or Blackguard spellcasting. Glory of the Martyr and Divine Sacrifice are the easy to name ones.

[ericgrau]

When you have 6 spellcasting classes a little bit of insanity is assumed.

It's not the greatest thing for combat, but it comes with a lot of options and there could be even more in a PrC. It's more from having lots of spells prepared than from having access to multiple lists.

I can see the appeal of an stp erudite as well for getting access to multiple lists.

[Sgt. Cookie]

I've been thinking about some sort of Knight/Warblade "ultimate commando" theruge. What say you guys?

[RFLS]

Ooh...building on the above, a 3.P Theurge for Alchemist that focuses on taking out targets.

EDIT: Maybe give it paths on the role it fills, like Sniper, Bomber, etcetera.

[Lord_Gareth]

I've been thinking about some sort of Knight/Warblade "ultimate commando" theruge. What say you guys?

I say Knight and Warblade are very anti-synergistic since both classes are competing for the same action slots.

[Sgt. Cookie]

That's the sort of thing the PrC itself would act upon.

[Psyren]

No, I did not.

Is it any good? (Or does it basically mutilate one, the other, or both?)

The Soul Manifester (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) is extremely good - not only is there strong natural synergy between psionics and incarnum (thanks to feats like Azure Talent/Psycarnum Infusion/Midnight Augmentation, and powers like Psionic Open Chakra/Soul Crystal), the PrC itself adds even more. Psionic Investment increases both the ML and DC of a power, but many powers increase their DC a second time when augmented - thus Soul Manifesters can double-dip in a way that their arcane counterparts (Soulcasters) cannot. In addition, Soul Manifesters can open their higher chakras (i.e. Throat and Waist) at least 2 levels before Soulcasters can; with the right build, a Soul Manifester can actually keep pace with a pure Incarnate in terms of Chakra Binds/essentia while still having access to its psionic abilities, especially once Psionic Distillation and Psycarnum Infusion are taken into account.

I like to combine them with Wilders - you rarely want to surge for more than +3 with a Wilder anyway, and in the meantime, you get a lot of Soulmelds to assist with your low powers known (for instance, you don't need to learn Psionic Fly if you have Airstep Sandals.) The Charisma focus gives you a lot of mileage out of both your Psion's Eyes and Mage's Spectacles, making you the party's UMD-machine.

[Jeff the Green]

I just remembered a theurge I've been wanting to do but never got around to: wizard/sorcerer/cleric/favored soul/psion/wilder. Alternatively any 2 arcane / any 2 divine / any 2 psionic. The basic concept would be to have a huge spell list, way more than anyone could ever need for combat so you end up with a lot of oddball spells.

The question is how you'd manage to get into the theurge PrC. How is a level 6 character with 0 BAB, near-monk MADness, and only 1st level spells/powers going to survive a single level-appropriate encounter, let alone enough to reach 7th?

[Psyren]

I just remembered a theurge I've been wanting to do but never got around to: wizard/sorcerer/cleric/favored soul/psion/wilder. Alternatively any 2 arcane / any 2 divine / any 2 psionic. The basic concept would be to have a huge spell list, way more than anyone could ever need for combat so you end up with a lot of oddball spells.

Archivist/Erudite gets you all of that. Being able to focus on Int rather than needing all three mental stats means you'll actually come out even on spells/day unless you have extremely high point-buy, and even then that would just postpone things.

[toapat]

Archivist/Erudite gets you all of that. Being able to focus on Int rather than needing all three mental stats means you'll actually come out even on spells/day unless you have extremely high point-buy, and even then that would just postpone things.

Actually, archivist, as i irritatingly found out, gets bonus spells from wisdom.

and, as i said, there are spells that neither of those classes can get.

[Draz74]

No, I did not.

Is it any good? (Or does it basically mutilate one, the other, or both?)

Psyren mostly beat me to answering this, but for the TL;DR version: yeah, it's pretty good, as long as you aren't also trying to be a gish or skillmonkey. The prereqs are a little steep, but that's probably necessary to keep such an excellent psi/incarnum hybrid from being overpowered.

[ericgrau]

The question is how you'd manage to get into the theurge PrC. How is a level 6 character with 0 BAB, near-monk MADness, and only 1st level spells/powers going to survive a single level-appropriate encounter, let alone enough to reach 7th?
You still have hp scaling up. Sleep gets you through level 1-3. Then you use entangle, bless and so on. You can't solo, but you can do some major support. Starting the 3rd round on level 4 you can do minor guaranteed damage each round, or you can pickup a backup magic item like a level 2 wand, necklace of fireballs I or some level 2 scrolls (don't roll a 1-2 and you're fine). Since your first round or two are covered you won't burn too many items. It's surprisingly easy.