CR17 undead vs turning level 18 cleric

[dantiesilva]

Ok I am going against a dream vestiage from LM and have run into a problem. My cleric is level 13 and turns like a level 18. He rolled max for a total of 22HD max for power of undead destroyed, if this has more then 5turn resistance how do I kill it before its effects kill me?

[Ceaon]

I don't know the stats of the Dream Vestige, but I feel I should point out that CR 17 does not mean 17 HD. Most undead have way more HD than CR.

[Jeraa]

Ok I am going against a dream vestiage from LM and have run into a problem. My cleric is level 13 and turns like a level 18. He rolled max for a total of 22HD max for power of undead destroyed, if this has more then 5turn resistance how do I kill it before its effects kill me?

You have turned, but not destroyed, the dream visage. You have to have twice as many levels as the undead has hit dice to destroy it, so turning as a 34th level cleric in this case.


Destroying Undead
If you have twice as many levels (or more) as the undead have Hit Dice, you destroy any that you would normally turn.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Dream Vistage is actually CR 16, but 17 HD, and it doesn't have any turn resistance at all. Assuming you're using the Sun domain's granted power, you should destroy it just fine.

If you're focused on turning, you should have more than +5 levels by then. Rod of Defiance (MIC) makes undead count as 4 fewer HD, Phylactery of Undead Turning (DMG) gives +4 levels, Scepter of the Netheworld (MIC, LM) gives +3 levels, Talisman of Undead Mastery (MIC) gives +2 to +4 levels depending on daily charges spent, Ephod of Authority (MIC) gives +1 level, and the feat Improved Turning (PHB) gives +1 level, and every one of those stacks. Granted you probably wouldn't be able to afford every one of those by your current level, but the Rod of Defiance, Ephod of Authority, and Talisman of Undead Mastery probably give you the most bang for your buck. A Circlet of Persuasion (DMG) gives a bonus to turning checks as well, and it can be converted to a mask (DMG p288) to make room for the Phylactery of Undead Turning.

[dantiesilva]

MIC is out of the bag.

And the DM told me his had a turn resistance of 10, thus need a 27, or 4 more levels to turn it.

Yes I have Sun devotion and am a radiant servant of pelor. Under those conditions without turning working in any chance would I be able to kill it? In one turn I can do roughly 150-300 damage against undead.

[ericgrau]

If you're not cheesing turning into an auto win against nearly all undead then generally you use it to fight multiple weaker foes. If you can't take out a major undead opponent in a single round then I'd say that's a good thing. And outside of the feat and an item there's not much you can do so you might as well put your other abilities and gear into other forms of attack. Even a super high charisma has only a minor & non-essential benefit so it probably isn't worth pumping.

Turn resistance 10 is a bit fishy though. Smells like DM fiat. So even if you had +10 more to your effective cleric level he'd just give it turn resistance 20.

[Story]

It doesn't seem that fishy to me. If Libris Mortis is on the table, you can easily get +22 turn resistance. Admittedly, Libris Mortis also has tons of ways to boost turning or lower turn resistance.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Turn resistance 10 is a bit fishy though. Smells like DM fiat. So even if you had +10 more to your effective cleric level he'd just give it turn resistance 20.

This is exactly what I was going to say. Your DM basically made this opponent unturnable, when there are plenty of undead in that CR range that your character wouldn't have been able to turn anyway. It already gets an aura of desecration that imposes a -6 penalty on turning checks, and with its SR 28 and touch AC of 31, it's highly doubtful that you'll even be able to harm it apart from turning. It looks like your DM found an opponent that you couldn't defeat apart from turning it, and then made it so you couldn't turn it, setting your character up for defeat. That it deals 4d4 Int drain per round means it can easily take you out in a single full attack, and then it would absorb your character (including his gear) so he could never even be raised. Definitely unfair.

Edit: As for legit ways for it to have Turn Resistance 10, there aren't any. There's the feat that gives +4 turn resistance that doesn't stack with itself. Feats in the Corpsecrafter line don't qualify as it's not created by any necromany spells. Items wouldn't work because it's incorporeal. There are a few templates that increase turn resistance, but they also increase the creature's CR, and I don't think you can even get +6 turn resistance out of them.

[Story]

Improved Turn Resistance and Lifebond both give +4. Necromantic Aura probably gives another +4, depending on whether you are considered to control yourself.

As for items, there's probably ways to use items as incorporeal, though I'm not familiar with them off the top of my head. Anyway, that's another +8 if you can manage it.

Edit: I just looked up Dream Vestige, and it doesn't seem like the type to have a Lifebond. I guess that makes the +10 a lot less reasonable.

[dantiesilva]

Well the thing that made him was a living breathing peice of the plane of negative energy. As he posted it he breathed it to life. Now if that is not the case as it can not be done it takes +4 off because of corpse crafter line. It has all of them. So I was not being unreasonable when I asked him how I was suppose to accomplish my mission as well as hold of this creature as you have stated could kill me in 1-2 turns. And without that +4 it would get a +6 to its HD making it on tier with one of my greater turning checks so it would then be destroyed because of this correct?