View Full Version : Does Incarnate Warforged Free LA Work?
White_Drake
2012-12-16, 06:07 PM
Does getting two free levels of LA by slapping incarnate construct on a warforged actually work? I seem to recall reading it didn't somewhere.
Crake
2012-12-16, 06:14 PM
Does getting two free levels of LA by slapping incarnate construct on a warforged actually work? I seem to recall reading it didn't somewhere.
Its based on the order in which you add the templates, the problem being that there aren't many templates out there that can be applied to constructs.
If you could find some template that COULD be applied to constructs, you could apply that, then apply the incarnate construct template afterwards to reduce its LA by 2, but otherwise the -2 just reduces the LA of warforged from 0 to 0.
Edit: Oh, and any benefits you gain from such a template would likely be stripped pretty quickly by incarnate construct
White_Drake
2012-12-16, 06:22 PM
Perhaps I should rephrase my question: it's no possible to have negative LA, even during character creation, correct?
Crake
2012-12-16, 06:29 PM
Perhaps I should rephrase my question: it's no possible to have negative LA, even during character creation, correct?
No, if you actually read the LA adjustment in the incarnate construct template it says -2 (minimum 0)
IdleMuse
2012-12-16, 06:32 PM
Incarnate Contruct Dustform X is probably better than Warforged?
White_Drake
2012-12-16, 06:51 PM
Looks like I've got some refluffing to do then.
TuggyNE
2012-12-16, 08:03 PM
Perhaps I should rephrase my question: it's no possible to have negative LA, even during character creation, correct?
No, it is not. However, precise order of application can get around that in some (many?) cases, by first getting 2 LA and then dropping it to 0.
Lapak
2012-12-16, 08:20 PM
Edit: Oh, and any benefits you gain from such a template would likely be stripped pretty quickly by incarnate constructThis is one of the big issues with trying this. Incarnate Construct removes all special qualities and special attacks that a creature has when it is applied. So many of the best things you get out of other templates go away when you apply it, other than raw ability boosts. And since you only get the -2 LA out of it if you have LA already, you can't switch the order.
Crasical
2012-12-16, 08:34 PM
Incarnate Contruct Dustform X is probably better than Warforged?
+3 Natural armor, +4 Str, -2 Dex?
Morph Bark
2012-12-17, 04:14 AM
+3 Natural armor, +4 Str, -2 Dex?
With a minimum of 3 Dex and it can be applied over and over again for infinite natural armor and Strength.
Crasical
2012-12-17, 04:37 PM
With a minimum of 3 Dex and it can be applied over and over again for infinite natural armor and Strength.
I don't claim to be an expert on having multiple of the same template, but I'm pretty sure that at least the first part of that is wrong, since Incarnate Construct always caps the natural armor back down to 3.
Kelb_Panthera
2012-12-17, 04:40 PM
I don't have a copy of SS at present, but I'd swear up and down that the section of the template that describes what it's applicable to says the construct to be incarnated has to be mindless. That or the incarnate construct spell's target line specified a mindless construct.
Am I completely mis-remembering or is that right?
umbergod
2012-12-17, 04:43 PM
With a minimum of 3 Dex and it can be applied over and over again for infinite natural armor and Strength.
Can't apply the template a second time since you're no longer a construct.
mattie_p
2012-12-17, 04:44 PM
Sorry, Kelb_Panthera, you seem to be remembering incorrectly. "Any construct creature with a generally humanoid form."
And Crasical, if larger than medium, it is capped at +9. Specifically says "Reduced" so you don't get natural armor if you don't have it already.
Morph Bark
2012-12-17, 05:15 PM
Can't apply the template a second time since you're no longer a construct.
I'm not saying to apply it a second time right after. I'm saying you can apply Dustform Creature and Incarnate Construct one after the other over and over again, cycling between Giant/Humanoid and Construct type.
mattie_p
2012-12-17, 05:16 PM
I'm not saying to apply it a second time right after. I'm saying you can apply Dustform Creature and Incarnate Construct one after the other over and over again, cycling between Giant/Humanoid and Construct type.
... until you get hit with a DMG to the head.
umbergod
2012-12-17, 05:28 PM
... until you get hit with a DMG to the head.
This. While such things work in theory, there is no sane DM that would even begin to consider allowing someone to abuse that.
lunar2
2012-12-17, 05:49 PM
eh, screw it. half dragon warforged incarnate construct. LA+1 isn't so bad for +8 strength + other incidental stuff.
White_Drake
2012-12-17, 08:12 PM
Unfortunately, half-dragon is only on living creatures. However, if you could get a DM to handwaive living requirements, for +1 LA you could instead have a wild environmental variant half-minotaur, half-ogre, feral, lolth-touched incarnate wargorged, for +20 Str, +10 Con. Although He would be so dumb he couldn't think without a learning program.
@ Kelb_Panthera:
Okay, I know panthera is a genus of big cats, but what does kelb mean?
silverwolfer
2012-12-17, 09:14 PM
Don't do the dustform stuff, critical hit from a mace or some other rounded edge, as you instantly die.
IdleMuse
2012-12-17, 10:22 PM
This. While such things work in theory, there is no sane DM that would even begin to consider allowing someone to abuse that.
To be frank, I think you'd have to have a very lenient GM to allow Incarnate Construct to begin with, especially with some of the stuff here. Template looping for infinite stats is obviously absurd, but then again, getting +12ish stats for +1 LA is also beyond the intent of the rules, so really, it's just a question of where you draw the line.
Spuddles
2012-12-17, 10:41 PM
Unfortunately, half-dragon is only on living creatures. However, if you could get a DM to handwaive living requirements, for +1 LA you could instead have a wild environmental variant half-minotaur, half-ogre, feral, lolth-touched incarnate wargorged, for +20 Str, +10 Con. Although He would be so dumb he couldn't think without a learning program.
Warforged are living creatures. I don't believe either half-breed template you mentioned can be applied to constructs, nor can feral. I think they're humanoid/giant/monstrous humanoid only.
Don't do the dustform stuff, critical hit from a mace or some other rounded edge, as you instantly die.
Incarnate Construct removes special qualities.
Morph Bark
2012-12-18, 03:15 AM
This. While such things work in theory, there is no sane DM that would even begin to consider allowing someone to abuse that.
Curious. You appear to assume that a sane DM might not utilize it him/herself. :smallamused:
Crake
2012-12-18, 03:49 AM
Warforged are living creatures.
Despite the fact that they are living creatures, they are made, not born, thus are incapable of having inherited templates.
Crasical
2012-12-18, 05:27 AM
Curious. You appear to assume that a sane DM might not utilize it him/herself. :smallamused:
"Dungeon Master, why was that monster so ridiculously strong?"
"Well, Timmy, that monster died, turned to dust, arose as a bizarre, unknowable dust creature, then was turned back into a flesh and blood creature by a powerful wizard. And then died again, turned to dust again, and -again- arose, and was turned back to flesh. This happened about eight or nine times."
IdleMuse
2012-12-18, 09:13 AM
"Dungeon Master, why was that monster so ridiculously strong?"
"Well, Timmy, that monster died, turned to dust, arose as a bizarre, unknowable dust creature, then was turned back into a flesh and blood creature by a powerful wizard. And then died again, turned to dust again, and -again- arose, and was turned back to flesh. This happened about eight or nine times."
:smallbiggrin: Awesome way of describing it. I can totally see this happening, by the way, for like, the favoured minion of a powerful Pharoah-wizard. Especially one without recourse to ressurection spells of their own, letting the desert do their dirty work. Sounds like a good recurring villain for a campaign!
Clay Half Golem can get pretty ridiculous - only damaged by Blunt Attacks. Sure, you'll never be party face or skill monkey...
Iron Half Golems as well - Con Damage Poison with secondary effect 1/2HD+Con mod+10 Save or Die Breath Weapon with DR25/+2, Str+12, Con +8... Just tank up the metabreath feats.
Can't remember its LA, but those have to be worth something.
umbergod
2012-12-18, 12:43 PM
Curious. You appear to assume that a sane DM might not utilize it him/herself. :smallamused:
a SANE dm wouldnt need to use it :P an INSANE dm might ;)
lunar2
2012-12-18, 06:25 PM
Despite the fact that they are living creatures, they are made, not born, thus are incapable of having inherited templates.
nope. inherited templates do not require you to be born in the traditional sense. a warforged made out of dragon tissues would be a half dragon warforged.
alternatively, warforged druid wildshaped into female animal. dragon with shape changing abilities does the deed with said female animal. warforged is now pregnant, and gives birth to half dragon warforged. in other words: "A wizard did it." (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AWizardDidIt)
Clay Half Golem can get pretty ridiculous - only damaged by Blunt Attacks. Sure, you'll never be party face or skill monkey...
Iron Half Golems as well - Con Damage Poison with secondary effect 1/2HD+Con mod+10 Save or Die Breath Weapon with DR25/+2, Str+12, Con +8... Just tank up the metabreath feats.
Can't remember its LA, but those have to be worth something.
http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/halfgolem.shtml
No LA so not really intended to be playable.
nope. inherited templates do not require you to be born in the traditional sense. a warforged made out of dragon tissues would be a half dragon warforged.
alternatively, warforged druid wildshaped into female animal. dragon with shape changing abilities does the deed with said female animal. warforged is now pregnant, and gives birth to half dragon warforged. in other words: "A wizard did it." (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AWizardDidIt)
So that's how a Warforged can get the Trollblooded Feat...
Morph Bark
2012-12-18, 07:08 PM
alternatively, warforged druid wildshaped into female animal. dragon with shape changing abilities does the deed with said female animal. warforged is now pregnant, and gives birth to half dragon warforged. in other words: "A wizard did it." (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AWizardDidIt)
That would most likely either result in a half-dragon version of the animal the warforged turned into (if the warforged remained in animal form until the birth), or wouldn't result in a permanent pregnancy (in case the warforged turned back to normal and thus would no longer have a womb to carry the child in).
Since warforged are only made through Creation Forges, clearly a dragon would've done something to it if there ever came to be a half-dragon warforged.
lunar2
2012-12-18, 07:15 PM
That would most likely either result in a half-dragon version of the animal the warforged turned into (if the warforged remained in animal form until the birth), or wouldn't result in a permanent pregnancy (in case the warforged turned back to normal and thus would no longer have a womb to carry the child in).
Since warforged are only made through Creation Forges, clearly a dragon would've done something to it if there ever came to be a half-dragon warforged.
hey, dragons are stated to be able to breed with just about any living creature. the only limitation is that it must be corporeal. well, warforged are corporeal, so somehow, a dragon can breed with a warforged, even though warforged don't normally breed. i just had the warforged wild shape in order to have it make some kind of sense. also, a creature not in its original form seems to pass on the traits of its original form regardless of its new form. dragons are specifically stated to use alternate form and polymorph to impregnate/get impregnated by humanoids, and no matter which way it goes, the kid is the same.
umbergod
2012-12-18, 07:18 PM
The idea of a warforged giving birth to a half dragon, half machine thing just freaks me the hell out
Crake
2012-12-18, 07:27 PM
Upon re-reading the rules, warforged are not actually living, they are simply able to be targetted by spells that require a living target.
Living construct...
Anyway, WoTC has already merged D20 Modern/Future with D&D 3.X on several levels. There's already a natural born half-machine race in D20 Future too. Not that far fetched for magic equivalents to exist.
lunar2
2012-12-18, 07:36 PM
they have a constitution score, therefore they are living. they are called living constructs, therefore they are living. they are healed by psitive energy and harmed by negative energy, therfore they are living. there is no rules text saying that they are not living, therefore they are living. for what it's worth, the FAQ states that they are living and can take the half-dragon, half-celestial, and half-fiend templates, therefore in the eyes of the sage, they are living.
umbergod
2012-12-18, 07:48 PM
they have a constitution score, therefore they are living. they are called living constructs, therefore they are living. they are healed by psitive energy and harmed by negative energy, therfore they are living. there is no rules text saying that they are not living, therefore they are living. for what it's worth, the FAQ states that they are living and can take the half-dragon, half-celestial, and half-fiend templates, therefore in the eyes of the sage, they are living.
Yeah, I wouldn't really trust things in Sage Advice :P
lunar2
2012-12-18, 07:53 PM
Yeah, I wouldn't really trust things in Sage Advice :P
for what it's worth
i know that. however, just because the FAQ says one thing doesn't mean that we should automatically run the other way. the existing rules do imply that warforged are living creatures, right down to the name of the living construct subtype.
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