True Dragons with Classes

[Vaz]

I'm interested in including NPC dragons as both a BBEG and as an ally NPC in a campaign I'm running.

They are meant to be some of the largest dragons; I'm considering making them epic encounters; unlike the other dragons (and the PC's); they have access to magic.

I am intrigued if there are any interesting builds based around a (gargantuan) dragon. And please; a little more interesting than Cleric/Druid/Wizard/Sorceror 20.

[docnessuno]

I'm interested in including NPC dragons as both a BBEG and as an ally NPC in a campaign I'm running.

They are meant to be some of the largest dragons; I'm considering making them epic encounters; unlike the other dragons (and the PC's); they have access to magic.

I am intrigued if there are any interesting builds based around a (gargantuan) dragon. And please; a little more interesting than Cleric/Druid/Wizard/Sorceror 20.

Considering there is no cap on dragon HDs, and that a 40 HD great wyrm red dragon is a CR 26 monster with access to epic feats, i think the best route would be just optimizing a dragon. If you REALLY want to make them "special" you could even create an additional age category behind great wyrm.

And dragons have access to magic baseline, unless you houseruled them to work differently. Said CR 26 red dragon cast spells as a 19th level sorcerer.

[Runestar]

Spellhoarding to change their sorc spellcasting to wizard
There are prcs in draconomicon to change their spellcasting to cleric
Really, templates are your best bet

Can also try these links.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/wn
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060908a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060811a

What cr and purpose are we looking at?

[Sajiri]

I was just thinking of doing something similar today when I was sitting in my car reading Draconomicon. I can't think of any builds in particular, but the dragon prestige classes in that book were pretty interesting.

[Amnestic]

I like the idea of an Incarnum using dragon. The aesthetic of such a thing amuses me.

[Runestar]

Just curious, while we are at it, what benefits might clerical spellcasting offer a dragon over arcane magic?

I am looking at the unholy ravager of tiamat, and while the conversion to divine spellcasting is cool, I am not quite seeing the practical implications.

Arcane magic seems to be superior for buffing (eg: blur, bite of the wereXXX, ray deflection, scintillating scales) and general utility (arcane spellsurge, contingency, teleport).

Clerical spellcasting is better at healing, but that is generally a suboptimal decision to make in combat anyways. There is fortunate fate (basically a contingent heal), divine favour (needs to be persisted to be useful), divine favour (full bab is pointles here) and...? The dragon could cast spells while in heavy armour without ASF though.

Thoughts? How might a dragon with divine spellcasting fight? :smallconfused:

[Yuki Akuma]

Take the Spell domain.

You now have (Greater) Anyspell.

Now work out a way to prepare domain spells more than once, and you're pretty awesome.

[Jeff the Green]

Now work out a way to prepare domain spells more than once, and you're pretty awesome.

Would spontaneous domain casting work?

[Crake]

Would spontaneous domain casting work?

no, that just lets you spontaneously choose your single domain spell per level

[Jeff the Green]

no, that just lets you spontaneously choose your single domain spell per level

Sorry, I should have specified the PHBII ACF, not the feat. It lets you cast domain spells more than once per day.

[dspeyer]

Remember that metallic dragons already have cleric list access.

For chromatics, Arcane Disciple and continuing their native casting might do better than starting casting from scratch.

Abjurant Champion is probably the simplest class.

Also consider swordsage. RHD count (half) toward initiator level by most rulings, so a one level dip on a great wyrm can get ninth level maneuvers. And a two level dip means wis to touch ac, which is nice.

[Darth Stabber]

I like the idea of an Incarnum using dragon. The aesthetic of such a thing amuses me.

The problem is incarnum dragons suck, A LOT.

Dragons gaining class levels is fun, sorcerer is the obvious choice, but given the lowish caster level for CR makes this option less interesting since you aren't really getting enough spell casting to do anything otner than advance your buff capacity marginally. I would recommend something that would make them a scarier melee theat. Spirit lion totem barbarian1/fighter2/prcX makes them a much more threatening.

[Chaos018]

dragonwrought kobold, there ya go. true dragons, CR .25, LA +0. I await fanfare, :P. More of a NPC ally, I think, but hey, I "accidentally" did not see the gargantuan requirement, lol

[Vaz]

@Darth Stabber- what makes Incarnum Dragons suck so badly? I can imagine a Girallon Arms Grappler Totemist could be a fairly dangerous opponent. But yes, I do like the idea of a more dangerous melee user.

In regards to in combat healing being suboptimal; it isn't necessarily that important to be so cheesy. The setting is fairly low magic (these Dragons being the ones who have locked it away); so no flight for the PC's etc. A Watcher of Chronepsis admittedly interested me; the Neutral bit lends well to the setting again in that the Dragons are essentially all on the same side, but still subject to petty rivalry based on their colours.

I've already used a couple of small Dragons with Character classes - fighters, barbarians, monks and even samurai (their "Daisho" being their Bite and Claws) and they went down well as both enemies and player controlled NPC's.

One thought I've had was to have one of the Dragons being a Weather related character who hid at the top of a mountain, using magical and mundane weather systems to turn back the PC's; ranging from using "Crunchy Snow" to attract Dire Bears and Wolves, to using NPC's affected by the Dragon's magic - mostly as things like Ghost Sounds or Dancing Lights to encourage them to be scared "truthfully" rather than under compulsion. Other methods include avalanches caused by ~hand spells. All the way up to epic spell Deathstorms.

Combined with the Humanoid Form from Eberron Dragons, and I might just have a fairly interesting encounter.

[Andreaz]

The problem is incarnum dragons suck, A LOT.
@Darth Stabber- what makes Incarnum Dragons suck so badly? I can imagine a Girallon Arms Grappler Totemist could be a fairly dangerous opponent. But yes, I do like the idea of a more dangerous melee user.Incarnum using Dragon and Incarnum Dragon are different things.
The former is a dragon with meldshaping capacities, the latter is a distinct creature.
Since we are talking about dragons with class levels, I'm willing to bet we're talking about the former.

[kardar233]

Remember that metallic dragons already have cleric list access.

So do Reds and Blues, for that matter.

Keep in mind that if you add Sovereign Archetypes from Dragons of Eberron you lose your cleric list access.

[Darth Stabber]

Incarnum using Dragon and Incarnum Dragon are different things.
The former is a dragon with meldshaping capacities, the latter is a distinct creature.
Since we are talking about dragons with class levels, I'm willing to bet we're talking about the former.

True, but the immediate temptation is to go with the dragon the "supports" that idea, and I thought it would nip that in the bud.

[Amnestic]

True, but the immediate temptation is to go with the dragon the "supports" that idea, and I thought it would nip that in the bud.

I was actually thinking metallic/chromatic dragon using meldshapes. I wasn't aware Incarnum Dragon was a separate and distinct creature.

[Darth Stabber]

I was actually thinking metallic/chromatic dragon using meldshapes. I wasn't aware Incarnum Dragon was a separate and distinct creature.

Pretend it still isn't a thing, trust me, you're better off. Useless breathweapon: check. Harder time than most at using magic item: check. Generally crappy stats: check. Lose the underwhelming but useful spellcasting for the privilege: check.

Applying incarnum to a dragon worthy of being called a true dragon wouldn't be too bad. Given the wierdness in how MoI works, and the healthy amount of hd granted feats dragons get, you could make something decent out it, so long as you are willing to work with the fact that a single dispel magic is likely turning off all of your soulmelds (due to low meldshaper level). I would still prefer to barbarian/fighter/PRC and give incarnum a miss in this particular case (and that is saying a lot coming from me), but it would work to some extent. You are likely much better off with totemist in this particular case, so avoid incarnate (and remember soulborn doesn't exist).

[Runestar]

Abjurant champion is just cruel! Imagine a dragon with caster lv = bab casting blasphemy! :smalleek:

[Darth Stabber]

Abjurant champion is just cruel! Imagine a dragon with caster lv = bab casting blasphemy! :smalleek:

I'm just reminded of the cavemen from eek the cat: "when does the hurting stop?"

First time i've thought about that show this millennium.

[ShurikVch]

How about the "Steely Stealer"?

Wyrmling steel dragon warblade 1/uncanny trickster 3/warblade 2/hoardstealer 8+...

Skillmonkey with small size, natural fly, alternate form 5/day, acid immunity, sorcerer spells lvl 1, breath weapon, hoardstealer casting... :smallsmile: Also,- Iron Heart Surge! :smallwink:

It's a dragon who steal treasures from other dragons!:smallbiggrin:

[Draz74]

As other people have already hinted at, Tome of Battle dips in general are scary-good for dragons. Pouncing Charge is a particularly attractive option, of course (unless you want to dip Barbarian as well).

Dragons with the Crush ability can be so good at grappling that they had to make a specific note in the True Dragon entry that dragons don't prefer this style, so as to avoid TPKs. Of course, this note is fluff, and you can ignore it if you're trying to be mean.

One level of Sorcerer is surprisingly potent, since the dragon's BAB and HP lead to a particularly fearsome familiar. Advancing its racial spellcasting is just icing on the cake. Of course, this option becomes even better if you can spare a feat on Improved Familiar, preferably picking up something with the Power Attack feat.

And as OotS emphasized, a dragon's favorite spell once its racial spellcasting reaches 6th Level Spells is Antimagic Field. Yikes.

Combine all of these ideas, and ... wow. A dragon with antimagic field, teaming up with its superpowered Worg familiar to grapple the PCs into oblivion, using Tome of Battle tricks to close the distance to the PCs (Pounce) and enhance its grapple damage (Crushing Weight of the Mountain).

A high-op party that's prepared for antimagic (e.g. Cheater of Mystra, or wizards with Shrink Item'd conical hats and a bunch of Contingent Spells) will walk over this like they do most challenges. And a ToB-heavy party will find it a pretty even fight. But any other party will probably get TPK'd.

[Susano-wo]

RE: spontaneous casting of domains the Domain Spontaneity feat from Complete Divine allows you to do so freely from 1 domain, albeit at the cost of a turn attempt each time. (ACF is probably better, though I don't have PHBII to check)