Need advice on building a bard 3.5

[SonAlFu]

I just joined a level 2 game and I'm relatively inexperienced with bards. What feats, spells, and magic items would be good for a bard?

[eggs]

The answer to this question is very long, and I think the bard handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284.40) and inspire courage handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830) have already addressed most of it. If you haven't checked those out, they're the place to start.

[Gwendol]

The handbooks can be more than a handful, so let me parse it down for you:

Race: Silverbrow Human
Feats: Dragonfire inspiration (Level 1)
Melodic casting (Human)

With melodic casting you can skip investing in concentration, as you use your perform skill instead (which should be maxed out, always)

Spells:
Spell level 0 (pick five from this list)
Prestiditigation
Summon instrument
Songbird
Detect magic
Light
Read Magic


Spell level 1
Inspirational boost (swift) IC+1
Grease

Items:
At one point you want a Badge of Valor (MIC)

[SonAlFu]

Thank you to both of you. I'll go look at them.

[Souped]

The handbook is great. Although I think that this build is for an "Optimal Bard" and some DM's might not give you all the freedom you need to achieve such a build.

I'm currently playing a bard, ... well : Brd level 8/ Arcane Archer 1.

I built my bard as an archer supporting my party from a ranged distance. I also get to help them with Inspire Courage and Inspirational boost (If you can get that spell it greatly augments your usefulness to the party).

First of all, what kind of character do you want to play?
- Do you want to inflict damage?
- Do you want to Melee?
- Do you want to be a spell caster?
- Do you want to act as a supporting class?
- Do you want to be a skill monkey?

Answer this question, then we can start talking!

PS: By the way Dragonfire inspiration (to me) is to strong of a spell. It lets you add the bonus of inspire courage as a +d6 elemental damage. So if you have inspire courage +3, everyone in your party gets to inflict +3d6 damage per round for as long as you sing... It's very good... But I hate it! And as a DM, I wouldn't allow it! Anyways...

[Socratov]

Well, DFI is actually one of those things that can make melee (and ranged) more effective, but casters not, so it could potentially level the playingfield a bit. Or do you ban clerics, wizards and druids sorcerers and psions as well?

If heavily optimised (into the double numbers of dice) it may just near par of a caster dealing damage. However, If you really don't want it people cna always make überchargers to oneshot enything within 80 ft. (or more).

[Gwendol]

DFI is not that unbalanced: it transforms +X to hit & damage to just +Xd6 damage.

[ericgrau]

The key to playing a good basic bard is the same as making a good wizard-skillmonkey-support. Then on top of that there are also bard specific options in some books.

For your first level spell get sleep. At 5th level swap it out later for a different spell like grease. Level 2 has glitterdust, heroism, invisibility, pyrotechnics and maybe silence. Image illusions of any level are also nice if you spend a lot of time learning how to use them well.

When there's a buffing round use your inspire courage bardic music, otherwise don't bother. Starting level 7 you'll have better spells to buff with instead, like haste, but sometimes you might have time for both a spell and music.

For skills you can do a lot of things that a rogue does. Scout ahead, tumble and flank to help the rogue sneak attack, etc.

If you want to focus more on a whip you can focus on strength over charisma and help weaken foes with tripping so that your allies can take them down more easily. In campaigns with a lot of humanoids disarming may work well too, and besides using strength it can also be done with a dexterity focus and weapon finesse.


DFI is not that unbalanced: it transforms +X to hit & damage to just +Xd6 damage.

True it isn't as strong as it might seem from the lack of a +X to hit. And it is fire damage which sometimes doesn't work perfectly. But it's still a little better than a +X to hit, and it combines well with morale bonuses like heroism or hero's feast whereas regular inspire courage does not. It's both overrated and a little bit of power creep. Probably fine for most groups. IIRC there are many other ways to boost bardic music and these are what make a DFI bard take off. Even without DFI they'd work well.

[Shaynythyryas]

Regarding DFI : correct me if i'm wrong, but as it count as bonus dices, you don't add them in crit damage.

With a few things like Words of Creation (feat from BoED), a badge of valor, a vest of legends and the inspirationnal boost spell, at level 9 you give either +6/+6 or +10/+10 (depending how your dm says the doubling power of WoC should apply).

The Lingering Song feat can be interesting if you wanna hop between musics during the whole battle. Think of them more as 1 minute spells with powerful effects - again, with WoC, you can give the aforementionned +x/+x from IC, then switch to an Inspire Greatness to give 4D10 to two or more in the party, then, if you've the level, switch to an Inspire Heroics to give a AC+4/resist+4 to another ally...

To summarize, go check the links for the IC handbook in the second post, it has all in it.

[Socratov]

Regarding DFI : correct me if i'm wrong, but as it count as bonus dices, you don't add them in crit damage.
yes

With a few things like Words of Creation (feat from BoED), a badge of valor, a vest of legends and the inspirationnal boost spell, at level 9 you give either +6/+6 or +10/+10 (depending how your dm says the doubling power of WoC should apply).
It says in the PHB that it's the order of application of bonuses (when to use which additives/multipliers), so add first (Inspirational boost spell +1, Song of the heart +1 [ACF from Ebberon], IC+2, using a MW horn +2, badge of valour+1 then WoC x2=>14 dice :smallbiggrin:)

The Lingering Song feat can be interesting if you wanna hop between musics during the whole battle. Think of them more as 1 minute spells with powerful effects - again, with WoC, you can give the aforementionned +x/+x from IC, then switch to an Inspire Greatness to give 4D10 to two or more in the party, then, if you've the level, switch to an Inspire Heroics to give a AC+4/resist+4 to another ally...
you can even run DFI and IC together with lingering song for maximum melee boost

To summarize, go check the links for the IC handbook in the second post, it has all in it.

it indeed has. Though the standard bard build (effective at every level):

silverbrow human bard 8/virtuoso 2/sublime chord 2/virtuoso 8
DFI
Healing Hymn ACF
Song of the Heart ACF
Lingering Song
chaos Music (extra IC dice you'd otherwise missed)
(rest open for melodic casting)
WoC
with badge of valour, vestments of legends and MW horn
for lots and lots of +to hit and +d6

Besides, if you can argue your silver brow stems form a dragon involving sonic you've taken home the gold :smallcool: (sonic element=best element, no force is not an element)

[Shaynythyryas]

What's this 'Chaos music' ?
I've never seen it.

[Socratov]

I'm AFB atm (foudn it in the chrystal keep docs, but I can't access them atm) but if you multiclass as bard this feat lets you count for purposes of songs and bardic music for up to 4 non-bard HD

[inuyasha]

I've actually never seen the point of bards...in 1e and 2e they were cool but in my opinion 3.5/3.0 bards are just things used to set off traps and be eaten first. So I must warn you, if you dont want to be humiliated for singing christmas carols in the middle of battle, dont play a bard.
P.S. nothing personal against bards but dragons find them tasty

[Piggy Knowles]

I am in the minority overall, but at higher levels, I typically do NOT prefer DFI to regular bardic music. The +X/+X helps mitigate things like power attack, make iterative attacks way more likely to hit, multiply with criticals/Spirited Charge/Battle Jump/etc., and can be useful in piercing the defenses of particularly tough monsters.

However, at early levels when damage boosts are harder to come by and iterative attacks seem as far away as epic levels, yeah, DFI is amazing. I once played a kobold bard with DFI, and being able to add +1d6 fire damage to my claw/claw/bite routine at level one put the rogue in the party to shame.

It's also nice at higher levels when you've got Lingering Song. You'll have plenty of bardic music uses, more than enough to activate regular Inspire Courage, stop singing, and then activate DFI, giving you the best of both worlds.

[Gwendol]

I've actually never seen the point of bards...in 1e and 2e they were cool but in my opinion 3.5/3.0 bards are just things used to set off traps and be eaten first. So I must warn you, if you dont want to be humiliated for singing christmas carols in the middle of battle, dont play a bard.
P.S. nothing personal against bards but dragons find them tasty

I don't think your experience with bards is normative. They are typically awsome in 3.5, but more or less require a lot of books to really shine. Try one out yourself, I'll be happy to give you some pointers.

[ericgrau]

I think many bad experiences come from melee attacking, bardic music and utility spells. On a bard you should try combat spells and skillmonkeying. Bardic music only for buffing rounds if you don't already have a better spell. Instead of direct melee try some kind of support like tumble flanking for the rogue or whip tripping. Between fights you can scout, negotiate with NPCs, engage in trickery, etc.

I wouldn't say his results are atypical; there are thousands of poorly played bards like I described. But if you focus on what you can do well they can be nice.

[Socratov]

I've actually never seen the point of bards...in 1e and 2e they were cool but in my opinion 3.5/3.0 bards are just things used to set off traps and be eaten first. So I must warn you, if you dont want to be humiliated for singing christmas carols in the middle of battle, dont play a bard.
P.S. nothing personal against bards but dragons find them tasty
ehm. everybody knows dragons prefer virgins, they do taste better you know... (I only don't know if they are saltier, sweeter or anything, they just taste better I guess)

I don't think your experience with bards is normative. They are typically awsome in 3.5, but more or less require a lot of books to really shine. Try one out yourself, I'll be happy to give you some pointers.
indeed.

I am in the minority overall, but at higher levels, I typically do NOT prefer DFI to regular bardic music. The +X/+X helps mitigate things like power attack, make iterative attacks way more likely to hit, multiply with criticals/Spirited Charge/Battle Jump/etc., and can be useful in piercing the defenses of particularly tough monsters.
well, do know that the damage works only if optimised and on every iterative (like a dualwielding rogue), for powerattack you should have boosted your to hit enough yourself, and the second round the bard provides a bonus to that by (next to DFI) performing IC

However, at early levels when damage boosts are harder to come by and iterative attacks seem as far away as epic levels, yeah, DFI is amazing. I once played a kobold bard with DFI, and being able to add +1d6 fire damage to my claw/claw/bite routine at level one put the rogue in the party to shame.
yep, and then the bard shines

It's also nice at higher levels when you've got Lingering Song. You'll have plenty of bardic music uses, more than enough to activate regular Inspire Courage, stop singing, and then activate DFI, giving you the best of both worlds.
one fo the first feats to get anyway (after DFI), so this is tactic #1 anyway.

I think many bad experiences come from melee attacking, bardic music and utility spells. On a bard you should try combat spells and skillmonkeying. Bardic music only for buffing rounds if you don't already have a better spell. Instead of direct melee try some kind of support like tumble flanking for the rogue or whip tripping. Between fights you can scout, negotiate with NPCs, engage in trickery, etc.
well, that's the thing, built right, they can do that too (in addition to heavy IC), they can even melee (slippers of batteldancing, and some other trick in Frostburn) That's the thing about bards, they can do a great number of things (even wizardly things when taking SC) and if you build them right they can do a lot of things very well, you just need to know what you are doing when building him and you need to dive into the books to find the options

I wouldn't say his results are atypical; there are thousands of poorly played bards like I described. But if you focus on what you can do well they can be nice.
right on both accounts. but that's just about right for every class, lots of classes are played horribly, but can shine immensely (even monk), exception for Truenamer ofcourse since the class is just broken beyond fixing anyway.