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Phaedrus2129
2012-12-17, 01:29 AM
How many of you guys are interested in RPGs that use tactical gun fighting systems?

Tactical combat being:

A combat system that is based heavily on gunplay and shooting
Which utilizes mechanics like cover and suppression
And takes into account the characteristics of different firearms
With a high degree of realism



I've personally been interested in these systems for a while, and have been heavily involved in the development of a new one called d100 Modern Tactical Gaming System, or MTGS, and several campaigns based on it. I'm wondering how many other people are into this type of system, or if most people prefer other combat systems?

ThiagoMartell
2012-12-17, 01:45 AM
You should change your wording because that's not really what tactical combat brings to mind when you talk about roleplaying games.

Phaedrus2129
2012-12-17, 01:48 AM
What do you think of? I don't mean just "combat with guns that's sort of realistic", I guess I could expand a little more. In addition to all of that it would imply gameplay requiring more strategic planning than just "run up and shoot" or "stand there and cast spell x".

ThiagoMartell
2012-12-17, 02:09 AM
Tactical combat happens when the game system supports different tactics. It has nothing to do with being realistic, actually. It usually happens in systems that lean towards simulationism, because it is a simulationist approach to combat - if something is holding a gun, you could have a possibility of disarming that person and if there is a wall between you and someone else, it could make it harder (or impossible) to target that guy. Your OP brings up guns and cover, but many systems don't even have guns and still have tactical combat. D&D is one such system, even.

Looks like you want a realistic gunfight system. There was a thread recently in these forums about just that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263086). Also, don't worry about gaming terminology wrong, it happens all the time. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264099)

Vitruviansquid
2012-12-17, 02:27 AM
So... what you're asking if I like systems that have well-developed gunplay rules?

Sure, I'd play one. Just as I'd play systems that have well-developed fencing rules, or systems with well-developed magic rules, or systems with well-developed other kinds of rules.

Raimun
2012-12-17, 02:49 AM
So, you mean games with modern day tactical combat?

Yeah, I've played games like that, even though I enjoy all games with tactical combat systems. Ie. games where you have several options and picking the right one is the challenge. Much more fun than just making attack rolls. You get more varied combats and it actually involves your own skill as a player.

Remember, kids. You don't have to be outside of combat to be creative. :smallsmile:

Phaedrus2129
2012-12-17, 04:03 AM
Yes, modern gunfighting tactical combat is what I meant specifically. Makes sense that tactical combat can refer to other systems, I've just always used it to specifically mean gunfighting. ;)



In that thread a lot of concerns about lethality came up. In the system that I've been helping develop we've gotten around that by adding a "buffer" system called vitality. As long as your vitality is above 0, all your wounds are flesh wounds; they hurt, but they won't kill you and won't impair your fighting ability. Once you get to 0 vitality you're incapacitated; below 0 is critical damage, which can range from slowly bleeding out (-1) to instant death (-6).

Vitality can be adjusted up and down to provide varying levels of realism. You get it with the following formula:

Kv + EB

Where Kv is a "Vitality Constant" and EB is the character's Endurance bonus

We usually play with a Kv of 10, and most characters have an EB of 3, so that gives 13 vitality. This makes combat survivable, while still being potentially deadly. If you go into a fight out-numbered or out-gunned, or if you charge in recklessly, you will get shot full of holes.

However, lowering Kv can make for very gritty, deadly combat. Lower Kv to 3 or 4, and even small caliber weapons are potentially deadly.


For an idea on how deadly you can make it, here's the damage for some common calibers (also Armor Penetration; extra damage is better than extra AP):

.22LR -- 1d10 AP0
9mm -- 1d10+1 AP1
.44 Magnum -- 1d10+4 AP1
.223 -- 1d10+4 AP0
7.62x39mm -- 2d5+4 AP0
.308 -- 1d10+7 AP1
12ga slug -- 1d10+8 AP0
.45-70 -- 3d5+5 AP1
.50BMG -- 5d5+7 AP6


With the full Kv of 10 you can survive a shootout on the scale of handguns pretty well, and a shootout with medium rifles can be survivable if you have cover. Drop the Kv to 3 or 4 and suddenly even .22LR is potentially lethal, though unlikely to insta-kill.

.50BMG, of course, means limb removal or death no matter what your vitality is.

Raimun
2012-12-17, 06:23 AM
Yes, modern gunfighting tactical combat is what I meant specifically. Makes sense that tactical combat can refer to other systems, I've just always used it to specifically mean gunfighting. ;)


You see, sometimes the best tactic isn't shooting.
For example, in the last game I was playing in, our party was seriously outnumbered and outgunned. It was a total gunline. I proposed we would advance behind cover and charge as soon as possible. Even if I say it myself, it was a brilliant move, if not risk free.
They were better at shooting than in close combat, so by charging them, their offensive capabilities were diminished a lot. We were by far better at close combat, we only had to face just a few of them at time and their buddies didn't fire in melee. That was better than all of them firing at once. Needless to say, we slaughtered them.

Ít was way more efficient and safer to recklessly charge at them, instead of staying behind cover.

Ninjadeadbeard
2012-12-17, 03:57 PM
In that thread a lot of concerns about lethality came up. In the system that I've been helping develop we've gotten around that by adding a "buffer" system called vitality. As long as your vitality is above 0, all your wounds are flesh wounds; they hurt, but they won't kill you and won't impair your fighting ability. Once you get to 0 vitality you're incapacitated; below 0 is critical damage, which can range from slowly bleeding out (-1) to instant death (-6).

My group always uses vitality and hit points simply for the added lethality and realism. We always just handwave Vitality as being the "Hero Shield". Everyone knows what that is and can visualize it better.



For an idea on how deadly you can make it, here's the damage for some common calibers (also Armor Penetration; extra damage is better than extra AP):

snip

I...what's a D5? I don't see how that's better than rolling d10s or d8s in sufficient number.

I had a gritty D6 Noir setting a while back. I've since had to rebuild it as a D20 Modern system due to balance concerns, but until that time, we had a horrifically realistic shooter.

Basically, if you had a gun you could kill every other character in 1 hit, maybe 2. We had defense bonuses for cover, and penalties for suppression fire. A typical fight would end up with roughly one round of gunfire, followed by one round of people lobbying for better cover or using magic or superscience to get an edge over everyone else, and then a final round where anyone not dead got a few bullets punched through them. It didn't have to be that way, it just was.

Now for the d20 system I'm just looking to up damage to some period appropriate guns, keep the suppression and cover rules as well as the vitality rules, and I was considering adding Sneak Attack Damage to anyone who attacked from behind with a gun or merely surprised their victim. I love me some realistic tactical shooter RPG.

Phaedrus2129
2012-12-17, 04:29 PM
I don't think there are physical d5s, we usually use electronic rolls so we can have any size die you want -- d2, d5, d7, d23, d8237, etc. 2d5 works just like 1d10 but with a slightly higher average.

Vitruviansquid
2012-12-17, 07:24 PM
You could probably just use a D6 and reroll if you get 6, or roll a D10 and half the number.

Phaedrus2129
2012-12-17, 09:45 PM
You could probably just use a D6 and reroll if you get 6, or roll a D10 and half the number.

Check the rules; that's how you're supposed to do it, roll a D10 and halve it, rounded down.

Greylond
2012-12-17, 10:03 PM
Kenzer&Co's Aces&Eights is very realistic and tactical. Anyone interested in it should take a look at it.

Hiro Protagonest
2012-12-17, 10:04 PM
Check the rules; that's how you're supposed to do it, roll a D10 and halve it, rounded down.

If what you've been saying is true, this system is completely under wraps except for you doing some playtesting. None of us know what the hell it is.

Phaedrus2129
2012-12-17, 10:06 PM
Yes. We're starting to expand it out though, I'm GMing two campaigns now, I have three applicants from this forum for a post-apocalyptic game using it. Applications closed for now, five people now, not sure I can handle more at the moment. Three or four other campaigns are also going now. We hope to have a full public release by this time next year.

SowZ
2012-12-17, 11:16 PM
My group always uses vitality and hit points simply for the added lethality and realism. We always just handwave Vitality as being the "Hero Shield". Everyone knows what that is and can visualize it better.




I...what's a D5? I don't see how that's better than rolling d10s or d8s in sufficient number.

I had a gritty D6 Noir setting a while back. I've since had to rebuild it as a D20 Modern system due to balance concerns, but until that time, we had a horrifically realistic shooter.

Basically, if you had a gun you could kill every other character in 1 hit, maybe 2. We had defense bonuses for cover, and penalties for suppression fire. A typical fight would end up with roughly one round of gunfire, followed by one round of people lobbying for better cover or using magic or superscience to get an edge over everyone else, and then a final round where anyone not dead got a few bullets punched through them. It didn't have to be that way, it just was.

Now for the d20 system I'm just looking to up damage to some period appropriate guns, keep the suppression and cover rules as well as the vitality rules, and I was considering adding Sneak Attack Damage to anyone who attacked from behind with a gun or merely surprised their victim. I love me some realistic tactical shooter RPG.

Problem is, real gunfights can last a while with both sides emptying many clips before a single bullet hits its target. Also, most gunshots are survivable.

Ninjadeadbeard
2012-12-17, 11:51 PM
Problem is, real gunfights can last a while with both sides emptying many clips before a single bullet hits its target. Also, most gunshots are survivable.

Not in Noir. Gunfights are rare. If you got a hero held up at gunpoint, he doesn't try to grapple check or reflex save his way out. He knows one shot is the end for him, and that's how we built the system. And besides, the system is in lockdown rebuilding from the ground up, so it's a moot point.

Hiro Protagonest
2012-12-18, 12:34 AM
Not in Noir. Gunfights are rare. If you got a hero held up at gunpoint, he doesn't try to grapple check or reflex save his way out. He knows one shot is the end for him, and that's how we built the system. And besides, the system is in lockdown rebuilding from the ground up, so it's a moot point.

Oh sure. If you're standing smackdab in the middle of an alley with no cover close by. Real gunfights can go on for minutes, with guys trying to get a hit without exposing themselves. It's like saying that the system does realistic sword fights because you can get one-shotted when the enemy is holding a sword up to your neck. Or doing your typical duel where the only deciding factor is who can draw faster.

DontEatRawHagis
2012-12-18, 12:43 AM
Yes, modern gunfighting tactical combat is what I meant specifically. Makes sense that tactical combat can refer to other systems, I've just always used it to specifically mean gunfighting. ;)



In that thread a lot of concerns about lethality came up. In the system that I've been helping develop we've gotten around that by adding a "buffer" system called vitality. As long as your vitality is above 0, all your wounds are flesh wounds; they hurt, but they won't kill you and won't impair your fighting ability. Once you get to 0 vitality you're incapacitated; below 0 is critical damage, which can range from slowly bleeding out (-1) to instant death (-6).

Vitality can be adjusted up and down to provide varying levels of realism. You get it with the following formula:


Check out Spycraft 2.0 it has a vitality system as well. Simplified:

Vitality is a buffer to wounds
Once you reach Zero Vitality, damage is distributed to wounds.
Critical Hits go straight to wounds.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-12-18, 01:02 AM
I actually jury-rigged a tactical gunfighting system together using FATE, based off of the Mouse Guard model.

You have three actions: Fire, Cover, and Maneuver. Each side picks one, independently, and reveals it; they resolve at the same time.

Fire vs. Fire means that both sides pop out and open fire. You roll independent attack rolls, and both of them have a chance to cause damage.

Fire vs. Cover means that both sides roll, and the Firing side is trying to beat the Covering side to score a hit. If the attacking roll is higher than the defending roll, they score a hit. Otherwise, no hit. (The "Cover" roll deals with your ability to keep an enemy from outflanking you while you remain under cover.)

Maneuver means that you roll to try and create an Aspect (a temporary advantage, here representing a tactical positioning advantage). Versus Fire, you have to beat their roll, or else they ping you for the hurt. Versus Maneuver, it's an opposed roll as well, but that's because you're both trying to outmaneuver the other. Versus Cover, you just try to beat a flat DC.

Cover against Cover or Maneuver doesn't roll, because you stay covered.

So, every round, you have to guess what your opponent's going to do, and act accordingly. I think that's nice and tactical.

ThiagoMartell
2012-12-18, 02:50 AM
Check out Spycraft 2.0 it has a vitality system as well. Simplified:

Vitality is a buffer to wounds
Once you reach Zero Vitality, damage is distributed to wounds.
Critical Hits go straight to wounds.


This system is very common among d20 games. There is an option for so in Unearthed Arcana and Star Wars used it as well. I used it for a D&D campaign, it was cool.

Axier
2012-12-18, 08:41 AM
I don't think there are physical d5s



I...what's a D5?


Somewhat off topic, but you can buy one here (http://www.amazon.com/GameScience-Emerald-d5/dp/B001D6DFPM/ref=sr_1_77?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1355836982&sr=1-77), and I own one, it actually rolls even!

Also, on topic, have you checked out the Fudge SRD, you can have this PDF (http://www.sonic.net/~rknop/big/Omar/fudge/FudgeSRD.pdf), or if you are worried about PDF security, there is a web SRD here (http://fudgerpg.tiddlyspot.com/).

Basically what it is is a create your own system system. Think about what you want in a gunfight, even do a little research, and try to apply it to the existing--and highly flexable--conflict resolution system. Im liking the system so far, but it is a little more free form. Benefit, it is as rules heavy or light as you invest time in it.

As for an "existing" system, Shadowrun is about as leathal as an actual gunfight. Oh, your afraid of magic, get rid of it. Dont want it in the future, just find the old guns or refluff them. It works pretty well.