ToH- Can my party do it?

[mirror]

Hello, so a few weeks ago I read about this super cool adventure called Tomb of Horrors, 3.5e. I glanced through the adventure and instantly wanted to make it a run.The group I was leading was lvl 9, so it was perfect...or so I thought.

The group was consisting of a Tiefling Ranger/Tempest, Human rogue/nightsong infiltrator, human duskblade/abjurant champion and a human bard (BJEDNICI, DO NOT READ FURTHER). They werent overly optimized.
They went for the tomb, knowing it was one of the most dangerous tombs in faerun, full of traps and a couple of strong monsters and probably a strong demilich. They don't know if this demilich has any weaknesses.

1st session, they failed both false entrance traps, almost dying. Managed to get the the real entrance, avoided the pits. And then...2 of them jumped into the devils mouth...


And now, new party is in the making for the ToH crusade. This time they are more optimized and probably consisting of 1 more member.
But I have a very big doubt, will they be able to take on Acererak ?!


---
The party will be LE, consisting of:

Goliath Barbarian(bear totem) 6/Frostrager 1/Bear Warrior 2 -very optimized grappler with strong unarmed attack.

Catfolk cleric1/rogue8 -skill monkey capable of doing some nice dmg with good mobility due to Travel Devotion

Aasimar Dread Necromancer/Pale master -first dread necro and first pale master, i dont really know what he is capable of. He is going for some touch attacks with spectral hand and skellies.

Something Favoured Soul 9 -char still not made (maybe i can hint for something that will help them manage Acererak?)

Something Something - char still not decided.
---


So my question is, will they even be able to do anything to the demilich construct.
I doubt anyone will be having a keen weapon to override his DR 20/keen or vorpal, maybe i should hint the favoured soul on going melee with some keen weapon(my gf is making this char, playing DnD 1st time, so basicly i'll be making the char for her).Without keen weapon they wont be able to do some dmg, rogue cant sneak attack so he will be useless.
The barbarian grappler will be doing maybe 5 damage per turn, maybe he can solve this encounter with a single grapple somehow? Trap the demlich in a bag of holding ?
I have seen some discussions about the demiliches immunities and I don't know what is the truth, are you able to damage him with spells that doesn't allow SR or not ? This is my main concern actually.
Is the dread necromancer even able to do some damage to him?

And last, is there anything else in ToH that you think this party would have serious difficulties overcoming, maybe i overlooked something.

Thanks for reading all of this, and THANK YOU for helping.

[Deophaun]

I think you are getting ahead of yourself. What makes you think this current group will survive long enough for the lich to kill them?

[AttilaTheGeek]

I think you are getting ahead of yourself. What makes you think this current group will survive long enough for the lich to kill them?

Hate to say it, but yeah, this. As a general rule, I don't run Tomb of Horrors, period. Especially not when your girlfriend is playing. I mean, maybe, if they enjoy rerolling...

[mirror]

Yea, I already told them i expect atleast 2 more tpks best case, and right now im even thinking about quitting ToH, but i rly freakin like it.
But im just wondering now what would happen if they make it to the lich. The reason I started the thread was mainly to find out if his Spell immunity is overcomed by spells that doesnt allow SR ?

[Ravens_cry]

I would never run Tomb of Horror's.
It is the most famous example of a convention dungeon, which, from what I understand, is like a tabletop version of those game shows where players go through an obstacle course for best time and points.
It's unfair, and is designed to rip characters to shreds.
I, personally, do not like that style of game at all.

[Killer Angel]

The reason I started the thread was mainly to find out if his Spell immunity is overcomed by spells that doesnt allow SR ?

Spell Immunity only protects against things which allow Spell Resistance, so use spells that don't allow SR, such the orb series for damage.

Unless Acererak doesn't use the Epic Demilich template; in that case, they'll be doomed.

[mirror]

I would never run Tomb of Horror's.
It is the most famous example of a convention dungeon, which, from what I understand, is like a tabletop version of those game shows where players go through an obstacle course for best time and points.
It's unfair, and is designed to rip characters to shreds.
I, personally, do not like that style of game at all.

I understand it is really hard and leaves no room for mistakes, but I felt like it would be great if this party could go through the most famous and dangerous of all dungeons alive.I will surely rethink it now, dying every session isn't fun.

@Killer_Angel
thanks for info. This is like the highest level I played by the rules in 8 years so i'm not so familiar with some of the higher level rules. Btw Acererak is a construct with a bunch of immunities in this adventure.

[Darrin]

I understand it is really hard and leaves no room for mistakes, but I felt like it would be great if this party could go through the most famous and dangerous of all dungeons alive.I will surely rethink it now, dying every session isn't fun.


Tomb of Horrors is best played as a "one-off" with disposable pregens (at least three per player). I wouldn't include it in any kind of regular campaign, or recommend any PC attempt it that the player is already personally attached to.

I like to run it around Halloween, and I let the players bring in any D20-compatable character they want (which is how I found myself in the uncomfortable position of trying to figure out what happens when an Ewok Jedi stabs a crystal skull with a lightsaber).

The problem I see with the proposed characters is they seem to be overly focused on doing damage. This is not how you tackle the Tomb of Horrors. Actually, you can tell your players this: there really isn't that much combat in the Tomb. And even if you knew what was in there and could build for it, there aren't any specific builds that would do well in the Tomb. Tackling this module isn't about how you design your character, or what skills/abilities your PC brings into it.

It's about the players being very clever, and even when they're really, really clever, they can still overthink things and die horribly. That's why you bring a handful of backup PCs.

Dealing with the Demilich:

The demilich at the end is particularly tough because unless they already know it's weaknesses, the PCs have expended most of their resources just to get to the end, and then usually aren't equiped to deal with it. The module itself doesn't offer any help to get rid of it, and the suggested methods to damage it are asinine and nearly impossible to determine without a tremendous amount of trial-and-error. The original 1st edition suggested chucking gems at it, but how the party would ever discover this to be effective is beyond me. Surreptitiously dropping a wand of shatter into the dungeon somewhere might be a good idea.

The best way to get rid of the skull is probably to use the crown + silver orb on the scepter to disintegrate it. If the PCs are clever enough to figure this out, don't allow Immunity to Magic to counter the disintegrate. Just give them the "Win": they earned it. (Even if you allow a Fort save, the skull will fail on anything other than a natural 20.) This method isn't mentioned in the original module or the 3.5 version. There is something about it in the introduction to the 2nd edition "Return to the Tomb of Horrors":

This actually happened at a tournement run by Rob Kunz (the guy running "Robilar" in Gygax's original Greyhawk campaign). Rob wasn't sure if he should allow it, but was eventually persuaded to let the PCs destroy the demilich this way. Later, when he asked Gygax if he made the right call, Gygax responded that this was brilliant, and he would have immediately awarded full victory to the PCs for being so clever.

When my own players ran through it, this was the second thing that flabbergasted me: they'd figured out a way to defeat the demilich that not even Gygax had anticipated. The first thing that flabbergasted me was they studied all that horrible poetry in the beginning, and it actually helped them get through the module.

[EmperorNortonII]

I doubt anyone will be having a keen weapon to override his DR 20/keen or vorpal, maybe i should hint the favoured soul on going melee with some keen weapon(my gf is making this char, playing DnD 1st time, so basicly i'll be making the char for her).Without keen weapon they wont be able to do some dmg, rogue cant sneak attack so he will be useless.



As we all know, never in history has a group of players ever been angry because the DM's girlfriend, who is playing D&D for the first time, single-handedly destroyed the BBEG.

[Talderas]

Tomb of Horrors is best played as a "one-off" with disposable pregens (at least three per player). I wouldn't include it in any kind of regular campaign, or recommend any PC attempt it that the player is already personally attached to.

Tomb of Horrors is basically Alpha Complex.

[Monodominant]

If as you say the new group is optimised then Acererak IS defeatable.

Deathward, True Death Crystal and all that should give some possibility to the party.

Keen isnt a rare ability for high crit builds but giving it to the PC played by your GF will raise some suspision...

Personally I had played in this module in these forums and was playing a halfling sorceror with Shatter as one of my spells so we had some decent damage between me, a frenzied berserker and a pimped out rogue...

If they are making new characters maybe you could start them BEFORE the tomb where a wealthy patron sents them to deal with it. In this phase you can allow them to do research and try to learn of Demiliches and their weaknesses... so the keen thing, true death crystal and in general all the Anti-Acererak things can come up as hints and info (some of what they learn can be horribly wrong) instead of just telling them. Make them do the research before they go in there guns blazing only to find he is immune to bullets!

[eggs]

I don't think "hard" is the word for ToH as much as "arbitrary and punitive."

A group doesn't have to have the skills to be good at 3e (character-building, tactical combat, strategic resource use) to get through ToH. They just have to be completely paranoid, or willing to just reroll character after character.

[Morbis Meh]

A killer gnome wouldn't have too many problems with this module XD That said this is mostly based on skills so a well built rogue/factotum would go a long way.

[Story]

Or you could just cheese yourself to the point where you can beat CR14 demons and then just walk in through the walls.

[Razanir]

Or you could just cheese yourself to the point where you can beat CR14 demons and then just walk in through the walls.

Or cheese yourselves to be master stonemasons and mundanely dig through the walls

[Alabenson]

Or cheese yourselves to be master stonemasons and mundanely dig through the walls

Or you could just play a thrallherd and have your highly disposable minions chip through the walls.

[The Glyphstone]

Or you could just play a thrallherd and have your highly disposable minions chip through the walls.

If you're a thrallherd, why chip through the walls? Just march your infinite disposable minions into the dungeon until you have a carpet of bodies to walk over without setting off any traps.

[Story]

Or you could be a level 1 Warforged Artificer, scribe scroll of Command, bypass the initial trap by method of choice, jump through the mist and use the scroll on the skull.

[dspeyer]

Hate to say it, but yeah, this. As a general rule, I don't run Tomb of Horrors, period. Especially not when your girlfriend is playing. I mean, maybe, if they enjoy rerolling...

I ran ToH once as a paranoia crossover. When you die, Friend Computer activates your next clone and sends it to the entrance. Make a tick mark on your sheet to indicate which clone you're on.

It kept things moving. Though one time a character who'd lost all his gear jumped in the statue's mouth deliberately.

[Curmudgeon]

I think you are getting ahead of yourself. What makes you think this current group will survive long enough for the lich to kill them?
Yeah, you're getting ahead of yourself. For 94% of ToH it's all about the Rogue. Properly optimized, a Rogue can handle all the standard traps in the module. (The presence-based traps are a holdover from the original Tomb of Horrors and don't really translate.) But since your experience is that your party failed the traps right at the start, and traps are the biggest part of ToH, don't you think you should nail down this aspect first?

[mirror]

Well, I decided its too late to turn back now. I'm going to run ToH outside of campaign but with same group, probably giving the whole party 2 lives if they screw up, I realized its impossible to get whole party through it in 1 go.

Yea they kinda failed the traps at the entrances but hopefully they realized that is really is a big meat grinder dungeon, we'll see how it goes.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, I decided its too late to turn back now. I'm going to run ToH outside of campaign but with same group, probably giving the whole party 2 lives if they screw up, I realized its impossible to get whole party through it in 1 go.

Yea they kinda failed the traps at the entrances but hopefully they realized that is really is a big meat grinder dungeon, we'll see how it goes.

Gee, finally realizing that every response to your entire question, where everyone was telling you the same thing, was true, huh? Except instead of listening to our advice, you had to figure it out the hard way? :P :P

Why did you even ask us, then?

[Rubik]

I'd probably play an abrupt jaunt conjuror ghost and use the reserve feat to get summons at will to take care of everything while remaining ethereal and (when needed) use malevolence to possess the bodies of things I find in the dungeon (or, more likely, can Planar Bind).

Then just make sure I have a bag of holding, have my summonable minions toss the demilich into it, and then toss it in a portable hole (or just puncture the thing).

[Alabenson]

I'd probably play an abrupt jaunt conjuror ghost and use the reserve feat to get summons at will to take care of everything while remaining ethereal and (when needed) use malevolence to possess the bodies of things I find in the dungeon (or, more likely, can Planar Bind).

Then just make sure I have a bag of holding, have my summonable minions toss the demilich into it, and then toss it in a portable hole (or just puncture the thing).

Why ruin a perfectly good portable hole when you could just toss the bag into the demon mouth/sphere of annilation?

[some guy]

The first thing that flabbergasted me was they studied all that horrible poetry in the beginning, and it actually helped them get through the module.
[/SPOILER]

The second time I ran this (as a drinking game), this also surprised me. The players used the riddle poem to a great extent and got very far.

[Darthteej]

The second time I ran this (as a drinking game), this also surprised me. The players used the riddle poem to a great extent and got very far.

Wait...people didn't pay attention to that? My group got a quarter of the way through the first edition version without taking any damage because we copied down the riddle exactly.