Balagarns Iron Horn optimization! (this spell be good) PEACH

[Phaederkiel]

Such a sweet little spell.
This post is divided in:
1) a short blurb
2) why the spell is good
2a) when it is better than similar spells
2b) when it is worse
3) how to optimize it
3a)how to optimize its check
3b) how to optimize its results

Please help me. Say things I forgot. Tell me where I am wrong.
Blue is the color code for things I am not sure about myself.


1) the blurb

In my campaign, there is a guy who plays a bard. (a close combat bard, but i think I will discuss the build in a new thread)

This Bard has the venerable Balagarns Iron Horn as one of his 3 spells.

He took it mainly for the flavour (he has perform:insult ...) and because he wanted to be able to do something against hordes.

Now, after two sessions and three castings of that little spell, we found it to be absolutely nutly good. Three castings, three combats won by it.


Which was admittedly because all three combats did not need killing opponents as much as circumventing them.
In the first, there were 4 guys with sword and shield and all the phalanx /shieldmate stuff, he tore down their formation.
In the second he blew a horde of archers from their wall, negating them a second shot.
In the third, he diced mediocre, but I diced terribly. He blew 10 of 12 horses or their respective riders and stopped the prison they had broken out from pursuing them any further.


So, in me the OP began to rise. And I made this post.

2) why the spell is good

It does not go against a save, but against a strength check.

Since it is worded a little weirdly, it seems that it can trip creatures up to any seize. Arguably, it perhaps means that they do their strength check without their size and quadruped boni.

It can affect a LOT of opponents. (Since it gets uncapped more reach per caster lvl)

While its effect is only semi-worthwile on its own, it enables the rest of the party to do things. Sets up AoOs, give the mage some time, disrupt the spellcasting of an enemy (hopefully, I am not sure how high a dc against getting tripped about is), Throws people off horses, throw said horses upon them...

Its check is easily (and probably quite unintendedly) optimized, even without giving it much resources.

2a) when it is better than similar spells

for now, let us only look at its closest competitor, grease.

Both have the ability to drop creature. Grease has the additional ability to make things flatfooted, and it can keep creatures dropped for much longer.
And grease can be used to make something slick.

But grease has some flaws: a) its small casting range and b) its quite small area. In the earliest beginning, grease has more range, but this changes fast.

Grease targetes a save. Saves tend to get really high later in the game. And many monsters have good reflex saves additional to having a high dex.

against a creature with a 10 in every score and 0 in every save (although i am not sure this works as an example) Iron horns trip check to beat will be 15,5 ; the grease user will have to have a 20 in his cast stat to top that. And has a pricey time enhancing that.

Obviously, the big dragon you try to trip from the skys has A MASSIVE STRENGHT SCORE. For example: A very old red dragon has a strength score of 37. which gives him a whopping 13 to his check. His Ref save on the other hand is 17, which means that grease has a harder time affecting him, even if it could be used against skyborn enemies. (which iron horn PERHAPS ccannot do, too. Its worded weird)

2b) when it is worse

Against High-strength monsters, or really high dex monsters (although i gather there are less of the latter). perhaps against quadrupeds.

When you need to keep something down for longer than one round.


3) how to optimize it

Strength check, the spell says. As if your strenght was 20.
Probably, somebody thought with this wording, the check cannot scale.

let us see what can do about the ckeck.


3a)how to optimize its check

First, it seems to me that improved trip probably does not apply, since it is a Strenght check, not a trip check. That would be quite good for us, since it would mean that the size and multiped boni our opponents will have will not apply either.

ways to optimize the check. The cheapest? brute gauntlets. 900 GP, from the mic, can give once per day a plus 4 to the check, or 3 times 2.

Are there other such steals?

Some less inexpensive methods:

competition domain, cleric 1, gives plus 1 to all opposed checks

Factotum 3 gives Int to all strength and dex checks. Factoti can also cast the spell, which makes them probably the best users.

Marshal 1 can give you a minor aura to strength checks (note that trip and strength checks are distict here) and a skill focus diplomacy, should you ever need it.

3b) how to optimize its results

here, I hit a drought. Sand snare is quite okayish, but it has bad requirements. Especially, since imp trip does not seem to help us.

[Gwendol]

I fail to see how you can change your strength mod as the spell is very clear on this point (you get STR 20 for the purpose of the check). Maybe the Cleric competition domain can up it a little, but the usual gauntlets, bracers, etc can't be expected to contribute.
Also, there is nothing in the spell that suggests that the targets do not get their usual bonuses for being Large, have more feet, etc. The only restriction the spell overrides is the rule that you can't trip a creature more than one size category larger.

[Deadline]

The 3.0 version of this spell is indeed a bit over the top. It has been redone in 3.5 though. In the Spell Compendium. As per page 5 of the Spell Compendium, you can see that Balagarns Iron Horn is now Ironthunder Horn.

It is now a simple reflex save or fall prone.

[Phaederkiel]

@ gwendol:

you do not add to your strength mod. you add to your strength check, which is a VERY different animal.

and since creatures do a strength check (or dex check) against it (and not an opposing check due to a trip check), arguably their boni do not apply.

@deadline:

you are, unfortunately, right. Anyway, he took the spell he took. Is it somewhere made clear that ironthunder horn replaces Balagarns?

[eggs]

It's "bonuses."[/explaining the joke?]

But anyway, what do we have to improve the opposed Strength check?

Marshal 1: Motivate Strength: add Charisma as circumstance
Factotum 3: Cunning whatsit: add Intelligence untyped

Mauling Gauntlets: add 2+2*Essentia competence(?) bonus

Competition domain: +1 untyped to opposed rolls

Illumian race: +2 untyped to strength checks

Moment of Prescience: add CL as insight

Others?

[Phaederkiel]

third eye surge (mic 143) is a pricier brute gauntlets, (but is insight instead of morale)

torque of the titans is even pricier (3300), but gives plus 5 three times a day (morale)

armband of might (MIC 72) (4100) gives an untyped plus 2 all day long

Belt of the champion (mic73) needs a feat or divine casting and is thus not interesting.


so plus 2 from third eye in the swift
plus 5 from the torque, using your move as a swift
plus 2 from the armband

is plus 9 for about 10000 gold, usable 3 times a day.
with plus 14, enemies will have a hard time not to trip.

is plus

[Gwendol]

This is what the spell description says:


Make a single Strength check as if your Strength were 20.
Creatures in the area make individual opposed Dexterity or Strength checks against your roll.


You don't make a trip attack, hence Improved Trip does you no good. You (or rather, the spell) make a single STR check using a given bonus to the roll (+5). All creatures in the spell area in contact with the ground makes an opposed roll, regardless of their size. That's it. Since it's the spell tripping, any items you carry that may alter your strength, etc, do nothing to improve the roll.
This is how I rule the spell.

[Phaederkiel]

first: I do not know if it is exactly safe to post this material here. I refrained from doing so. Probably better if you remove it.

Second: yes, obviously increasing your strength does not work the slightest.
but things that add to the strength check work handsomely.

see the difference?

[Gwendol]

They work if the DM rules your strength actually matter in this case. From my point of view it's the spell that does the tripping, and so whatever you have to influence strength checks you make does nothing.

But, it's a strangely worded spell, made for 3.0 and that has been updated in the spell compendium (with a reflex save), so whatever rocks your boat! :-)

[Deadline]

@deadline:

you are, unfortunately, right. Anyway, he took the spell he took. Is it somewhere made clear that ironthunder horn replaces Balagarns?

Sorry, I must not have made it very clear in my post. The replacement information is found on page 5 of the Spell Compendium:


The following spells were renamed before their inclusion in this book.

It then goes on to list a bunch of spells. One of those is Balagarn's Iron Horn, which has been renamed to Ironthunder Horn.

Using non-updated 3.0 material in a game usually isn't a big deal, but using the 3.0 version of something that has been updated in 3.5 is usually frowned upon. It's your game though, so do what you will.

[Phaederkiel]

@ gwendol:

My strenght does not matter the least. But since it is a strength check, things that alter strength checks do apply by the rules.

@ Deadline:

hmm, that sucks. I just did not know that the spell was updated (and massively nerfed), and now the player has it in its old version. And I am not going to change it into something so much worse.

Unfortunately though, it makes thinking about optimizing the spell somewhat of a moot point. I wished I could have found something to enhance its effect.

[Gwendol]

Sure, if you can argue that your armbands can enhance the spell.

[Deadline]

Unfortunately though, it makes thinking about optimizing the spell somewhat of a moot point. I wished I could have found something to enhance its effect.

Well, here's a wacky thought. Since you are allowing the older, better version of the spell, you don't need to enhance it. It's already plenty good for a 1st level spell.

Another thought would be to just treat it as a ranged trip attempt, and then allow everything that boosts or detracts from such a thing. It would make adjudicating it way easier.

[Phaederkiel]

well, the old version is quite powerful, anyway.

and enhancing it further is moot since it has been replaced.
So we cannot rule-monger with a clean conscience.

I just had hoped for some wacky Ideas for making its effect better.

The new version is strictly worse than grease, is it not?

[Deadline]

The new version is strictly worse than grease, is it not?

The effect is worse than grease, but the area of effect is better. I'd personally consider grease to be a better spell, but that's because you can target specific items with it.

At the end of the day, they are both spells you cast to make people fall down.