Sigmar vs an Ultramarine [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Emperor Ing

2012-12-17, 11:54 PM

This ends one of two ways depending on how powerful that hammer is:

The hammer bounces off or staggers the Ultramarine, but does nothing to stop him from tearing Sigmar limb from limb

The hammer obliterates the Ultramarine, leaving a giant crater in his breastplate

Alternatively...

The Ultramarine banks left, causing Sigmar to miss, the heavy weapon leaving an opening for the marine to grab a hold of and maim Sigmar.

So that's two for three. I give it to the Ultramarine.

comicshorse

2012-12-18, 09:33 AM

Sigmar isn't just an ordinary human he is at the least a demi-god. (I believe that the arguments about at what point Sigmar became a god are still not resolved)
Sigmar went up against Nagash, the most powerful Necromancer the Warhammer world has ever seen. Despite Nagah's army of high level undead, his fantastic magics, his Liche and Tomb King Champions with centuries of combat experience, his purpsoe built undead form and his array of magical artefacts Sigmar smashed his army and slew him personally
Unless you give the Ultramarine a bolter I'd say this is a clear Sigmar win

Killer Angel

2012-12-18, 11:11 AM

Accordingly to Lexicanum, Sigmar killed a Daemon Prince.
Power armor is great, but an unarmed ultramarine is going to lose.

Cikomyr

2012-12-18, 11:24 AM

Sigmar is, indeed, one badass mofo. I suspect you'd need at the very least a Space Marine Captain to compete with him.

Selrahc

2012-12-18, 11:31 AM

Sigmar is wearing a bunch of incredible magical equipment, and physically he is not a human but a living demigod. Sigmar is powerful enough to smash Orc Warlords, the Everchosen of Chaos and numerous Daemon Princes, and creatures like Griffins, Dragons and undead monstrosities.

The Space Marine is rather easily outclassed.

The Glyphstone

2012-12-18, 12:03 PM

Yeah, Mook (even awesome mook) versus Named Demi-God level legendary hero is going to end pretty inevitably.

Does anyone remember hearing about a story, way back when in the days of yore (when Warhammer was an isolated planet in the 40K universe) where a lone Ultramarine crash-landed on the planet and ended up running around calling himself The Blue Knight?

Ravens_cry

2012-12-18, 12:29 PM

Eldan

2012-12-18, 12:39 PM

He'd be pretty damn invincible by Warhammer standards, in any case.

Of course, there were the persistent rumours that Sigmar is one of the lost primarchs.

Morph Bark

2012-12-18, 12:39 PM

Why not Sigmar in his prime versus the God-Emperor just before he needed hooking up to the throne?

Does anyone remember hearing about a story, way back when in the days of yore (when Warhammer was an isolated planet in the 40K universe) where a lone Ultramarine crash-landed on the planet and ended up running around calling himself The Blue Knight?

Googling it turns up nothing for me.

gooddragon1

2012-12-18, 01:59 PM

Why not Sigmar in his prime versus the God-Emperor just before he needed hooking up to the throne?

Googling it turns up nothing for me.

Because I wasn't actually sure what it would take to challenge Sigmar by 40k standards.

comicshorse

2012-12-18, 02:13 PM

Why not Sigmar in his prime versus the God-Emperor just before he needed hooking up to the throne?

Would he get his magic items ?

The Glyphstone

2012-12-18, 08:23 PM

Why not Sigmar in his prime versus the God-Emperor just before he needed hooking up to the throne?

Googling it turns up nothing for me.

Me neither, which is why I can't remember if it was in a WD or if it was just a piece of fan-fiction.

Fan

2012-12-18, 10:47 PM

Why not Sigmar in his prime versus the God-Emperor just before he needed hooking up to the throne?

Googling it turns up nothing for me.

The God Emperor is a Solar System level threat.

Super Nova Eyebeams (it's not Hyperbole because you say it's effects should've been wider spread, there is this thing called concentration, in a psychic beam with no bleed.), time stop abilities, the ability to toss tank sized creatures inter stellar distances, galactic range telepathy with some prep, and reality alteration capabilities if The Noctis Labyrinth is to be believed to be Emperor made, and the ability to smash mountains with his physical blows.

Combined with HIS magic items of a Power Sword that eradicates the enemies soul, power armor that's stood up flawlessly to Titan grade weaponry and Greater Daemon sorcery.. it's just not even a comparison.

Sigmar is strong, but there's no way.

comicshorse

2012-12-19, 11:06 AM

Kinda impossible to really say as we have very little on Sigmar but legends.

Still I'd just say the GE's powers are no doubt funky but Nagash could do spells that killed in entire kingdoms in one shot and simultaneously raised them as undead and his magics couldn't stop Sigmar

That said I don't think Sigmar could match the GE. Versus a Primarch I'd see as a fairer fight

Cikomyr

2012-12-19, 08:59 PM

Fan

2012-12-19, 09:11 PM

To be honest, what we have on the GE is also nothing but legends.

Actually, there's a number of books that specifically deal with him finding the Primarchs and their interactions with him during the Great Crusade.

The Mechanicum Book is a first hand account from an old Magos who is so old even rejuvenation treatments can't save him anymore on top of him being mostly machine, and was a Titan Princep when the Emperor came to Mars.

The Horus Heresy books have multiple interpretations in universe, but the book itself is the "True Story" as far as that goes.

Killer Angel

2012-12-20, 03:00 AM

The God Emperor is a Solar System level threat.

Super Nova Eyebeams (it's not Hyperbole because you say it's effects should've been wider spread, there is this thing called concentration, in a psychic beam with no bleed.), time stop abilities, the ability to toss tank sized creatures inter stellar distances, galactic range telepathy with some prep, and reality alteration capabilities if The Noctis Labyrinth is to be believed to be Emperor made, and the ability to smash mountains with his physical blows.

Combined with HIS magic items of a Power Sword that eradicates the enemies soul, power armor that's stood up flawlessly to Titan grade weaponry and Greater Daemon sorcery.. it's just not even a comparison.

Sigmar is strong, but there's no way.

Plus, I doubt the EG would restrain himself...

Does anyone remember hearing about a story, way back when in the days of yore (when Warhammer was an isolated planet in the 40K universe) where a lone Ultramarine crash-landed on the planet and ended up running around calling himself The Blue Knight?

I recall something, but I've no link. Probably it was fan-fiction.

Selrahc

2012-12-20, 05:00 AM

Super Nova Eyebeams (it's not Hyperbole because you say it's effects should've been wider spread, there is this thing called concentration, in a psychic beam with no bleed.),

Except it is more than just the ship surrounding them that doesn't fit. Even the centre of the attack, Horus, doesn't match the effect. Horus's body survived. His corpse was the centre of a large drama within the early Chaos remnants, and his gear is still in use today by Abaddon.

So if the "Supernova Eyebeams" don't have any physical effect on the world that would fit with that description, what is the evidence that the description is more than an artistic way of saying "Powerful"? Why do you assume that they were trying to convey literal power levels?

hamishspence

2012-12-20, 10:13 AM

Sigmar's got his own novel trilogy- and while he's stronger than the human warriors in that, it's not by much- his real power seems to be strength of will.

Fan

2012-12-20, 11:04 AM

Except it is more than just the ship surrounding them that doesn't fit. Even the centre of the attack, Horus, doesn't match the effect. Horus's body survived. His corpse was the centre of a large drama within the early Chaos remnants, and his gear is still in use today by Abaddon.

So if the "Supernova Eyebeams" don't have any physical effect on the world that would fit with that description, what is the evidence that the description is more than an artistic way of saying "Powerful"? Why do you assume that they were trying to convey literal power levels?

Because it says exactly what it does in great detail on the page, one does not go into great detail for the sake of a lengthy metaphor when describing an attack.

It said it was Supernova strength, it's Supernova strength.

A duck is a duck.

Also, again, God Emperor Tier Armor resists those kinds of attacks and it was an attack on multiple planes of existence, as far as I'm aware the onset of it was enough to drive all four chaos gods from Horus.

Why do you assume that it's hyperbole in a battle? Seriously, there's no reason to assume it's exaggeration, it's fiction, sometimes thermal bleed and explosion radius isn't taken into account as much as I like applying physics this is Novella, and when it's in writing from a writer not given to flowery prose descriptions (Dan Abnett is not a man who does this, as stated in multiple interviews about his writing.), it's not hyperbole.

Again, Primarch's are capable of leveling mountains with their blows (At least Fulgrim was.), and the God Emperor is a galactic scale Telepath and is capable of Solar System Wide psychic attacks.

Why is a super nova strength beam of concentrated psychic will that hard to believe? =/

I'm also not "assuming" anything, I'm taking it at face value. You're the one assuming.

Ravens_cry

2012-12-20, 11:14 AM

Because the God Emperor is a figure of Myth and Tale, shrouded in Legend and Story?
Over the top exaggeration of the deeds and abilities of venerated, and I use the term pretty literally, figures is par for the course, especially in a setting where everything is more awesomer, more grim dark, more bloated, turgid descriptive metaphor, than everything else.

Selrahc

2012-12-20, 02:27 PM

A duck is a duck.

A duck is a duck.

A duck is however, not a resonant adjective used in a stylized fight scene. So maybe literalism isn't the only possible way to read things?

Fjolnir

2012-12-20, 02:33 PM

Who is to say that sigmar is not the god emperor at the point of the warhammerverse?

The Glyphstone

2012-12-20, 02:34 PM

They're two entirely separate timelines. They haven't been in the same universe since early 1E 40K.

Fan

2012-12-20, 05:35 PM

A duck is a duck.

A duck is however, not a resonant adjective used in a stylized fight scene. So maybe literalism isn't the only possible way to read things?

Dan Abnett does live streams from time to time.

I will ASK HIM if it was hyperbole. If he says it's not, on livestream, I think that's definitive. The guy takes questions.

Selrahc

2012-12-20, 05:55 PM

Dan Abnett does live streams from time to time.

I will ASK HIM if it was hyperbole. If he says it's not, on livestream, I think that's definitive. The guy takes questions.

Alright.

Let's clarify things though. If you go in a livestream and say "The Emperor vs. Horus fight scene. Is it just hyperbole?" it's a pretty leading question. I'm not saying the scene is hyperbolic. I've said that you were being hyperbolic. Supernova eyebeams is hyperbolic, given that even if you take things literally, the Emperor uses his "Supernova" once and then was reduced to a living corpse. So you bringing them up in every vs. thread like they're a common thing the Emperor does? I definitely view *that* as hyperbole.

Now what I've been actually saying is that there is a symbolic element to the description, and that it shouldn't be taken in a literalist manner as an exact description of the power level of the Emperor. If you ask Dan Abnett something in that line, and he answers that the Emperor literally shot Horus with a supernova blast I would concede the point. If you ask him whether the emperor could literally blow up stars with his mental blasts, and he says yes, then I will concede the point. If Dan Abnett says the Emperor can blow up stars, I would believe him.

Fan

2012-12-20, 05:58 PM

Alright.

Let's clarify things though. If you go in a livestream and say "The Emperor vs. Horus fight scene. Is it just hyperbole?" it's a pretty leading question. I'm not saying the scene is hyperbolic. I've said that you were being hyperbolic. Supernova eyebeams is hyperbolic, given that even if you take things literally, the Emperor uses his "Supernova" once and then was reduced to a living corpse. So you bringing them up in every vs. thread like they're a common thing the Emperor does? I definitely view *that* as hyperbole.

Now what I've been actually saying is that there is a symbolic element to the description, and that it shouldn't be taken in a literalist manner as an exact description of the power level of the Emperor. If you ask Dan Abnett something in that line, and he answers that the Emperor literally shot Horus with a supernova blast I would concede the point. If you ask him whether the emperor could literally blow up stars with his mental blasts, and he says yes, then I will concede the point. If Dan Abnett says the Emperor can blow up stars, I would believe him.

He was already VERY heavily wounded, he wasn't reduced to a living corpse because of the attack (and that's very apparent as it out and out says that it 's his wounds that force him to be interred.), but rather Horus's attacks they caused that.

And again, in versus threads you need to establish the upper limit of capability in order to give the fairest shake possible to both characters. I'm perfectly fine with taking other character's highest feats.

comicshorse

2012-12-20, 06:35 PM

And again, in versus threads you need to establish the upper limit of capability in order to give the fairest shake possible to both characters. I'm perfectly fine with taking other character's highest feats.

Well Sigmar has destroyed Demon Princes and Nagash so that indicates a pretty high resistance (immunity ?) to Magic. There's a description (old I grant you) of Nagash reducing a man to a smoking skeleton with a glance (eye beams are popular) which obviously didn't work on Sigmar
The Great Enchanter Drachenfells ( a guy who describes vampires as 'temporary creatures') describes his magics deserting him and his body reverting to its true age when Sigmar fights him
Also I believe Sigmar is said to have a laid a curse on every undead in existence that his mere name and personal symbol would repel them
Not to mention providing spells to people who worship him
Sure others could provide more and probably better

Fan

2012-12-20, 07:42 PM

Well Sigmar has destroyed Demon Princes and Nagash so that indicates a pretty high resistance (immunity ?) to Magic. There's a description (old I grant you) of Nagash reducing a man to a smoking skeleton with a glance (eye beams are popular) which obviously didn't work on Sigmar
The Great Enchanter Drachenfells ( a guy who describes vampires as 'temporary creatures') describes his magics deserting him and his body reverting to its true age when Sigmar fights him
Also I believe Sigmar is said to have a laid a curse on every undead in existence that his mere name and personal symbol would repel them
Not to mention providing spells to people who worship him
Sure others could provide more and probably better

All fine and dandy, but The Emperor is on a stellar tier. He can stop time, blows up mountains, galactic range > planetary range, he generally out preforms Sigmar in every imaginable respect and then his sword and armor are better.

comicshorse

2012-12-20, 08:23 PM

and then his sword and armor are better.

Could we have stats for the respective gear ?

All fine and dandy, but The Emperor is on a stellar tier. He can stop time, blows up mountains, galactic range > planetary range,

Stopping time is great but as I pointed out Sigmar's ability to be unaffected by magic seems impressive. Does it work on him?
Blows up mountains is good but Sigmar has gone toe-to-toe with Greater Daemons who are not unknown for the punch. Unless the GE uses Psi/Magic for this ( I hope we can agree Psi-magic or we have a whole new set of arguments to go through) in which case as pointed he took out Nagash a being who killed entire kingdoms with his spells, better than blowing up mountains :smallsmile:
Galactic range telepathy is great but of limited use in a straight fight

P.S.
General question. There have been signs the GE can grant spells/miracles to believers. Anything that can indicate the Primarchs can do this ?

Fan

2012-12-20, 09:55 PM

Could we have stats for the respective gear ?

Stopping time is great but as I pointed out Sigmar's ability to be unaffected by magic seems impressive. Does it work on him?
Blows up mountains is good but Sigmar has gone toe-to-toe with Greater Daemons who are not unknown for the punch. Unless the GE uses Psi/Magic for this ( I hope we can agree Psi-magic or we have a whole new set of arguments to go through) in which case as pointed he took out Nagash a being who killed entire kingdoms with his spells, better than blowing up mountains :smallsmile:
Galactic range telepathy is great but of limited use in a straight fight

P.S.
General question. There have been signs the GE can grant spells/miracles to believers. Anything that can indicate the Primarchs can do this ?

Entire Kingdoms doesn't compare to a mountain range larger than the Himalayas at all.

His sword rends the soul from the target, is powered so it automatically by passes even force fields, and would probably cleave straight through his hammer with his physical strength alone.

Again. Kingdoms < Mountain, a town is large, but requires less energy spread across a larger area, meaning a weaker concentration could technically acheive the same feat.

The God Emperor's best feat has to be a throwing The Void Dragon (as large as a castle) at the minimum of Escape Velocity inter stellar distances.

Also, outside of The Warp Daemon Princes aren't known for leveling mountains.

Also, Daemon's use Sorcery not Psyker power, there is a significant difference as the hexagrammic wards that protect against Sorcery still allow for Librarians to telepathically communicate with their squad. There is transparency in setting, no argument.

The God Emperor is on the scale of all 4 Chaos Gods at once, I believe he's even functioned around Blanks without too much trouble. Dude is nuts.

tbok1992

2012-12-20, 10:35 PM

Wait, wasn't Sigmar originally implied to be one of the Lost Primarchs, meaning Warhammer Fantasy was just another world in the 40k Verse?

The Glyphstone

2012-12-20, 10:36 PM

Like I said, that was back in 1e or early 2e, when the Warhammer world was a planet surrounded by warp storms in the 40Kverse. That was decanonized a long time ago.

Tiki Snakes

2012-12-21, 02:29 AM

Like I said, that was back in 1e or early 2e, when the Warhammer world was a planet surrounded by warp storms in the 40Kverse. That was decanonized a long time ago.

There's a tantalisingly euphamistic reference or two, from skim-reading, in the Dark Crusade book actually that suggests this might not be so decanonized as I'd been assuming.

Assuming I've not just gone mad and made that up. I'm pretty sure I read something in there that suggested something along those lines.

Raimun

2012-12-21, 03:29 AM

Sigmar wins.

It would be more sporting if the mook-marine could take his pick of any standard weapon his rank entitles, eg. a Special or Heavy weapon or chainsword and bolt pistol. Still, even then I would bet on Sigmar.

lord_khaine

2012-12-21, 05:20 AM

The God Emperor is on the scale of all 4 Chaos Gods at once

Yeah right...

If this was even close to true he would not be a psychic vegetable stuck to a fancy chair :smalltongue:

Fan

2012-12-21, 05:26 AM

Yeah right...

If this was even close to true he would not be a psychic vegetable stuck to a fancy chair :smalltongue:

Oh yeah, he only fought his near physical equal manifested with all four of their psychic powers.

Hmm, I wonder why he was crippled, maybe it's because the fight only got THAT far because he wanted to redeem Horus rather than kill him and hesitated to annihilate him till the end.

comicshorse

2012-12-21, 08:35 AM

His sword rends the soul from the target, is powered so it automatically by passes even force fields, and would probably cleave straight through his hammer with his physical strength alone.

And the Hammer's powers are ? Not to be snippy but you made the claim the sword was better, and again do so here, but unless you have the two to compare all you can say is the GE's sword is powerful

Again. Kingdoms < Mountain, a town is large, but requires less energy spread across a larger area, meaning a weaker concentration could technically acheive the same feat.
I didn't say town I said Kingdom. An entire country, several cities, dozens of towns, god knows how many villages, hundreds of square miles.

The God Emperor is on the scale of all 4 Chaos Gods at once,
Sigmar is the god of the Empire is job is pretty much protecting the Empire from the chaos gods. As the Empire is still standing..........

The God Emperor's best feat has to be a throwing The Void Dragon (as large as a castle) at the minimum of Escape Velocity inter stellar distances.

..............Yeah I got nothing here :smallsmile:

lord_khaine

2012-12-21, 08:52 AM

Oh yeah, he only fought his near physical equal manifested with all four of their psychic powers.

He fought one of his own Primarchs blessed with the mark of all 4 chaos gods, and he didnt even live to tell the tale himself.

Hmm, I wonder why he was crippled, maybe it's because the fight only got THAT far because he wanted to redeem Horus rather than kill him and hesitated to annihilate him till the end.

And because of a moments hesitation he got beated to a bloody pulp, what shape is it now the chaos gods are in? same as allways i belive.

The Glyphstone

2012-12-21, 10:55 AM

Ah, the eternal question of the Versus.

Are we pitting the actual character, or are we matching up a meat-puppet who has all of the character's powers and none of their attitudes/personality?

Love and Arrogance were the Emperor's weaknesses. He wanted to redeem Horus, and had enough hubris to believe that he could drive off the Ruinous Powers and redeem his son even then. It took Sanguinus's death to knock the stupid out of him, and by then it was too late...Horus could only die, and the effort still vegetablized Big E.