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NeeL
2012-12-18, 04:37 AM
I know, there are 55,400 hits when googling only this forum on grapple. But I've searched and read for weeks now to understand grappling and I think I've nearly mastered all possible core situations. A few questions remain however, mainly about monsters, therefore I turn to you, the almighty wise internet.

Hypothetical: A monster with 1 attack in full round and a BAB of +6
Let's say I am a druid with a Monitor Lizard as an animal companion.
When I'm level 9, the Lizard has 6 extra HD's to a total of 9HD. The Lizard has Avarage BAB, so it's BAB comes to +6. It has only 1 attack in full round: Bite. As an animal, it does not gain extra attacks for BAB, that's for wielders of manufactured weapons.

But now my Lizard is in grapple.
1 In Grapple rules, it gets 2 'attacks' to spent on grappling, in a full round. It could try to damage the opponent by grapple twice, for instance. Could it also do that once, and then as grapple rules say, use the other attack as an attack?

2 Let's say my Lizard has Improved Grab (MM 310). With it's Bite attack it can (if successful) grab (opposed grapple check) to establish a hold. It used his full round with the Bite, but is he because of the BAB entitled to a grapple action?

Real situation and a real bugger to me: Squid with zero damage Arms, in grapple
3 I am a druid in an aquatic campaign. I have a squid as an animal companion. My squid has a primary attack: Arms +4 (0 dmg)
And he has a secundary attack: Bite -1 (1d6+1 dmg)
Also, Improvred Grab: hit with Arms, grab, do automatic Bite damage.
Rules for Improved Grab state: If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well.
It's clear to me that however it says each successful grapple check, this is only meant for the Damage Opponent option in the grappling options and that the damage is instead of the normal unarmed damage.
However, the attack my squid used to establish the hold, is the zero damage Arms attack.
The option of attacking the opponent with a light or natural weapon, gives a -4. To Bite his opponent in grapple, my squid has a -5 on the attack roll and the opponent only loses dex (if I remember correctly) to other attackers, not my squid.
Is a Squid not meant to grapple? It has racial grapple bonus of +4. The best way to attack seems to hit with arms, grab, do automatic bite, then do NOT pull opponent in your square (Imp. grab does that), and next round repeat. But I can't imagine this is the way it's supposed to be, especially when the flavourtext says about the squid: These free-swimming mollusks are fairly aggressive. They are more feared than sharks in some locales.

How should I and my DM deal with this? For the moment we are unsure and just use that the damage opponent option does Bite damage instead of unarmed or Arms.

Togo
2012-12-18, 05:40 AM
1) Yes, at the normal -4 for attacking in a grapple. He couldn't attack anyone outside the grapple.

2) No, but he could take a move action. Attacking with his natural weapon is either an attack action or a full attack action. His attack profile for either one is a single natural weapon attack.

However, I reckon he could do the opposite. Starting in a grapple, he could, as part of his BAB sequence, do two grapple attacks at +6 and +1 BAB, killing his opponent, and then 5ft step and attack a fresh opponent with a secondary natural weapon attack, the bite, at -5.

3) The squid is probably supposed to bite at -5. Your house rule seems reasonable, although you shouldn't apply it to larger squids/krakens etc. or they become much more powerful (the bite attack is always more damaging than the arms for such creatures.) Another possibility is to allow the creature to do base unarmed damage for its size (d3+str?).

NeeL
2012-12-18, 09:00 AM
2)However, I reckon he could do the opposite. Starting in a grapple, he could, as part of his BAB sequence, do two grapple attacks at +6 and +1 BAB, killing his opponent, and then 5ft step and attack a fresh opponent with a secondary natural weapon attack, the bite, at -5.

You're still talking about the Monitor Lizard with only 1 attack: Bite. Right?
If so, how come it can do a full round of grapple damage and then still attack later on in the same round?
Or are you suggesting that in grapple, two (max. because of BAB) grapple attacks equals a move action, and thus you have a standard attack left?



3) The squid is probably supposed to bite at -5. Your house rule seems reasonable, although you shouldn't apply it to larger squids/krakens etc. or they become much more powerful (the bite attack is always more damaging than the arms for such creatures.) Another possibility is to allow the creature to do base unarmed damage for its size (d3+str?).
Base unarmed damage seems no more than reasonable. Somewhere in the Monster Manual it is mentioned that a monster who suffers from improvement does not suffer from that improvement.

But so, is this really how it is supposed to play? Within grapple:
- a Bite -5 for 1d6+1 damage, or
- an opposed grapple check +8 for 1d3+2 non-lethal damage, or
- an opposed grapple check +4 for 1d3+2 lethal damage

That's not really impressive. Not as much to state that they are in some locales more feared than sharks.

Sorry, I need the confirmation. :)

Hmm, just looking at a medium shark: equal HD's, Bite +4 (1d6+1), grapple +3.
So a shark and a squid, in grapple, gives the shark the options:
- escape from grapple (OGC: +3 vs +8) (26%)
- damage non-lethal (OGC: +3 vs +8) (1d3+1 dmg) (26%)
- damage lethal (OGC: -1 vs +8) (1d3+1 dmg) (14%)
- Bite +0 (AC: 16) (1d6+1 dmg) (20% or 25%, I'm no DM)

While the Squid greatly benefits, doing non-lethal damage:
- damage non-lethal (OGC: +8 vs +5) (1d3+2 dmg) (74%)
- damage lethal (OGC: +4 vs +5) (1d3+2 dmg) (47,5%)
- Bite -5 (AC: 15) (1d6+1 dmg) (5%)

As long as the shark does not get caught, it stands a chance I guess.
I'm just a bit disappointed in the squid as a dangerous strangler. :sigh:

Togo
2012-12-18, 11:31 AM
You're still talking about the Monitor Lizard with only 1 attack: Bite. Right?
If so, how come it can do a full round of grapple damage and then still attack later on in the same round?

Because there is a special rule about natural attacks used as secondary attacks.

If you lizard was weilding a claymore, then you could attack twice with the claymore (for BAB+6), and then bite as a secondary attack.

If your lizard had a level of monk, you could attack twice with unarmed strikes, and then bite as a secondary attack.

So if you lizard makes two grapple attempts, it seems logical that it could then attack with its bite as a secondary attack if it suddenly was no longer in a grapple. It's definitely an edge case though.


Base unarmed damage seems no more than reasonable. Somewhere in the Monster Manual it is mentioned that a monster who suffers from improvement does not suffer from that improvement.

But so, is this really how it is supposed to play? Within grapple:
- a Bite -5 for 1d6+1 damage, or
- an opposed grapple check +8 for 1d3+2 non-lethal damage, or
- an opposed grapple check +4 for 1d3+2 lethal damage

? That's not really impressive. Not as much to state that they are in some locales more feared than sharks.

Sorry, I need the confirmation. :)

Yeah, it's not impressive, but then grapple damage is almost always not very impressive. Even creatures that specialise in grappling attacks do more damage outside a grapple than within it.

The point about grapple is not that it's a deadly attack form, but that it's an attack form that severely limits your opponent's options. When grappled, most people do little or no damage, and can't get away.



Hmm, just looking at a medium shark: equal HD's, Bite +4 (1d6+1), grapple +3.
So a shark and a squid, in grapple, gives the shark the options:
- escape from grapple (OGC: +3 vs +8) (26%)
- damage non-lethal (OGC: +3 vs +8) (1d3+1 dmg) (26%)
- damage lethal (OGC: -1 vs +8) (1d3+1 dmg) (14%)
- Bite +0 (AC: 16) (1d6+1 dmg) (20% or 25%, I'm no DM)

While the Squid greatly benefits, doing non-lethal damage:
- damage non-lethal (OGC: +8 vs +5) (1d3+2 dmg) (74%)
- damage lethal (OGC: +4 vs +5) (1d3+2 dmg) (47,5%)
- Bite -5 (AC: 15) (1d6+1 dmg) (5%)

As long as the shark does not get caught, it stands a chance I guess.
I'm just a bit disappointed in the squid as a dangerous strangler. :sigh:

Yeah, the job of grappler in 3.5 is to take an enemy out of the fight, not to kill him. Which isn't a bad role for an animal companion, but may not be what you were hoping for. Crocadile might work better for you?

NeeL
2012-12-18, 11:42 AM
Thanks, for your response!


Yeah, the job of grappler in 3.5 is to take an enemy out of the fight, not to kill him. Which isn't a bad role for an animal companion, but may not be what you were hoping for. Crocadile might work better for you?

Babau's Slime makes it more appreciable. :)
Can't change my companion anymore. ATM we are level 5 (started level 3). But when I'm 6, Squiddy gets a total of 7 HD's, and therefore grow in size. Then he'll literally be grappling the **** out of everyone.

Also, I can no Wild Shape in an Anaconda (homebrew water-adapted constrictor snake, like the sea snake in Stormwrack). So I'll constrict it to death. :)

Keld Denar
2012-12-18, 12:00 PM
Animal companions never gain size from increased HD due to druid levels.