Ur-Priest caster level

[barna10]

"To determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the character’s ur-priest levels to one-half of his levels in other spellcasting classes. (Any levels gained in the cleric class by an ex-cleric don’t count.)"

Ok. RAW an Ur-Priest's caster level raises 1.5 levels every time his caster level his caster level is raised by a class that isn't Ur-Priest. For instance, Duskblade5/Ur-Priest 1 would have a caster level of 3.5 (4 if you round). Take 1 level of Dweomerkeeper, adding +1 to Ur-Priest, and the caster level would be 5

(Duskblade 5 + Dweomerkeeper 1)/2 + Ur-Priest 2 = 6/2 + 2 = 3+2 = 5

Add another level and caster level becomes 6.5
another and it becomes 8

All this because RAW you use "..levels in other.." instead of "caster levels"

Fun. My Ur-Priest NPC no longer needs Practiced Spellcaster.

[Bakkan]

I don't think this works since Dweomerkeeper is not a spellcasting class, since it has no spellcasting of its own.

[erikun]

A class with the "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" is not a spellcasting class themselves. The class does not itself grant any spellcasting. Your example Duskblade 5/ Ur-Priest 1/ Dweomerkeeper 1 has an Ur-Priest caster level of 4.5 (4, rounded down).

Adding additional levels of Dweomerkeeper, and putting them towards Ur-Priest, would just increase the caster level by one per level, not by 1.5.

[barna10]

A class with the "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" is not a spellcasting class themselves. The class does not itself grant any spellcasting. Your example Duskblade 5/ Ur-Priest 1/ Dweomerkeeper 1 has an Ur-Priest caster level of 4.5 (4, rounded down).

Adding additional levels of Dweomerkeeper, and putting them towards Ur-Priest, would just increase the caster level by one per level, not by 1.5.

Sorry, wrong.

"The level of dweomerkeeper is added to the level of whatever otherspellcasting class the character has, then spells per day, spells
known, and caster level are determined accordingly."

Notice how it refers to the class you are adding to as the "other spellcasting class" which explicitly defines dweomerkeeper as a "spellcasting class". Therefore, my math is correct RAW.

[eggs]

Usually prestige classes without spell progressions of their own aren't considered "spellcasting classes"; otherwise, you get silly things like Arcane Hierophant advancing Mystic Theurge and Druid each level.

[barna10]

Usually prestige classes without spell progressions of their own aren't considered "spellcasting classes"; otherwise, you get silly things like Arcane Hierophant advancing Mystic Theurge and Druid each level.

RAW that would work, funny.

[eggs]

"Spellcasting class" isn't a defined term, so RAW doesn't have much to do with this.

[barna10]

"Spellcasting class" isn't a defined term, so RAW doesn't have much to do with this.

RAW means Read as Written and it has everything to do with this

[Lord Il Palazzo]

"Spellcasting class" isn't a defined term, so RAW doesn't have much to do with this.It doesn't need to be a defined term; it's plain English. (Just like how the Player's Handbook has a bunch of spells and rules that deal with "willing" creatures without defining the word "willing".)

A "spellcasting class" is, simply a class that casts spells. Since one of the features listed in the description for a Dweomerkeeper is "spells per day/spells known" it's pretty safe to say that it's a spellcasting class.

[toapat]

RAW that would work, funny.

No, it wouldn't. Mystic theurge is an arcane and divine casting class. It can't be progressed by most casting progressions, although some, such as arcane trickster can target it, as at does not specify that you have to take arcane progression

[eggs]

RAW means Read as Written and it has everything to do with this
If it were written anywhere whether "spellcasting class" referred to classes that grant or advance spellcasting, RAW would have something to do with this topic. That is the salient question which is begged by your argument. If you can find that explicitly written anywhere, please provide a citation.

But in the absence of that writing, the interpretation to use comes down to a couple things:

Which is better balanced: As I believe the Mystic Theurge example demonstrates, "advance" interpretations open doors for abuse that "grant" do not.
Which is more coherent within the rules: Your OP is a good example of "advance" interpretations being less coherent within the rules of the game.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Sorry, wrong.

"The level of dweomerkeeper is added to the level of whatever otherspellcasting class the character has, then spells per day, spells
known, and caster level are determined accordingly."

Notice how it refers to the class you are adding to as the "other spellcasting class" which explicitly defines dweomerkeeper as a "spellcasting class". Therefore, my math is correct RAW.

This is a blatant misquote of the Dweomerkeeper class (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a), not even the 3.0 version from Faiths and Pantheons contains the above wording. You are wrong, and you are making up quotes to support your incorrect claim.

[umbergod]

RAW means Read as Written and it has everything to do with this

no...just, no. You cannot use a prc that advances the spellcasting of another class/prc to advance another prc that advances spellcasting but has no spell progression on its own.....

[barna10]

{Scrubbed}

[barna10]

If it were written anywhere whether "spellcasting class" referred to classes that grant or advance spellcasting, RAW would have something to do with this topic. That is the salient question which is begged by your argument. If you can find that explicitly written anywhere, please provide a citation.

But in the absence of that writing, the interpretation to use comes down to a couple things:

Which is better balanced: As I believe the Mystic Theurge example demonstrates, "advance" interpretations open doors for abuse that "grant" do not.
Which is more coherent within the rules: Your OP is a good example of "advance" interpretations being less coherent within the rules of the game.


None of this matters. The classes state the relevant text. There is nothing to interpret or assume. Please just read the texts.

[KhaineGB]

Barna is actually completely right.

You -can- add the Dweomerkeeper spells/day to the Ur-Priest, because it has a casting progression.

However, some google-fu seems to point at people house-ruling against that because it's apparently a bit broken.

[umbergod]

Barna is actually completely right.

You -can- add the Dweomerkeeper spells/day to the Ur-Priest, because it has a casting progression.

However, some google-fu seems to point at people house-ruling against that because it's apparently a bit broken.

Perhaps in that case he is, but attempting to use Arcane Heirophant to progress Mystic Theurge is a complete misinterpretation of RAW as a whole

[KhaineGB]

Perhaps in that case he is, but attempting to use Arcane Heirophant to progress Mystic Theurge is a complete misinterpretation of RAW as a whole

That I would agree with.

I do wonder how it would work if you had Arcane Heirophant and Mystic Theurge BOTH stacking onto your base Arcane/Divine classes though. Would the spells/day from both PrC's stack?

Doing it that way would apply both PrC's as written (rather than trying to apply a PrC to a PrC). I'm curious as to the effect though.

[umbergod]

That I would agree with.

I do wonder how it would work if you had Arcane Heirophant and Mystic Theurge BOTH stacking onto your base Arcane/Divine classes though. Would the spells/day from both PrC's stack?

Doing it that way would apply both PrC's as written (rather than trying to apply a PrC to a PrC). I'm curious as to the effect though.

the levels would indeed stack if you were, for example, a wiz/druid/MT/AH

[LTwerewolf]

RAW means Read as Written and it has everything to do with this

It means Rules as Written, as in exactly what is written down disregarding any logic or sensibilities. It does not mean Read as Written. But you have to remember that rule 0 is also written and would be used in this matter. This "trick" is also not really a workable thing, but you can continue to argue that it is to your heart's content.

[barna10]

This "trick" is also not really a workable thing, but you can continue to argue that it is to your heart's content.

What trick is that? Show me something that contradicts the stuff written in official material and I'll concede it's not a "trick". Until then it's just opinion.

[umbergod]

What trick is that? Show me something that contradicts the stuff written in official material and I'll concede it's not a "trick". Until then it's just opinion.

You do realize that your "trick" makes no sense right? At least not the using AH to advance MT and Druid. To advance the spellcasting abilities of a class, it has to have a spell progression of its own (ie: ur priest, cleric, bard, etc etc).

[barna10]

You do realize that your "trick" makes no sense right? At least not the using AH to advance MT and Druid. To advance the spellcasting abilities of a class, it has to have a spell progression of its own (ie: ur priest, cleric, bard, etc etc).

Yeah, not really worried about that "trick". Haven't even wasted a brain cell on it.

Also, not my trick. I just gave a favorable comment to the guy that posted it.

[eggs]

None of this matters. The classes state the relevant text. There is nothing to interpret or assume. Please just read the texts.
I have read the texts. They do not say what you claim. The only conclusions I can draw here are that you have not read them, or that you have deliberately altered them for added character benefits; either way, the evidence you have posed is not a part of the Dweomerkeeper class, as you claim.

The text you've quoted above should read (as found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a)):

"When a new level of dweomerkeeper is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class to which she belonged before she added the prestige class."

Note that "other" word you've bolded and based your argument around doesn't exist.

There is no indication that Dweomerkeeper counts as a spellcasting class, nor is there an indication that other "+1 level existing spellcasting class" PrCs count as spellcasting classes. There are no written rules on what exactly constitutes a "spellcasting class"; instead there are those two interpretations of that phrase to choose between (the difference between classes that grant versus advance casting).

Edit: Missed that later line. My face is red.

Barna is actually completely right.

You -can- add the Dweomerkeeper spells/day to the Ur-Priest, because it has a casting progression.
You're missing the argument here. Barna10 is arguing that Dweomerkeeper counts as a "spellcasting class" for the purposes of the Ur-Priest CL mechanic, as well as progressing Ur-Priest advancement. This interpretation does not just mean Dweomerkeeper levels can advance Ur-Priest casting (what your post is about), it means the Dweomerkeeper levels advance Ur-Priest casting and add an additional +1/2 to the Ur-Priest's caster level each Dweomerkeeper level.

[barna10]

Regarding the trick, I'm starting a new post if anyone needs to continue with that.

[barna10]

I have read the texts. They do not say what you claim. The only conclusions I can draw here are that you have not read them, or that you have deliberately altered them for added character benefits; either way, the evidence you have posed is not a part of the Dweomerkeeper class, as you claim.

The text you've quoted above should read (as found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a)):

"When a new level of dweomerkeeper is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class to which she belonged before she added the prestige class."

Note that "other" word you've bolded and based your argument around doesn't exist.

There is no indication that Dweomerkeeper counts as a spellcasting class, nor is there an indication that other "+1 level existing spellcasting class" PrCs count as spellcasting classes. There are no written rules on what exactly constitutes a "spellcasting class"; instead there are those two interpretations of that phrase to choose between (the difference between classes that grant versus advance casting).

You're missing the argument here. Barna10 is arguing that Dweomerkeeper counts as a "spellcasting class" for the purposes of the Ur-Priest CL mechanic, as well as progressing Ur-Priest advancement. This interpretation does not just mean Dweomerkeeper levels can advance Ur-Priest casting (what your post is about), it means the Dweomerkeeper levels advance Ur-Priest casting and add an additional +1/2 to the Ur-Priest's caster level each Dweomerkeeper level.
{Scrubbed}

"When a new level of dweomerkeeper is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class to which she belonged before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (improved chance of turning or rebuking undead, metamagic or item creation feats, and so on). The level of dweomerkeeper is added to the level of whatever other spellcasting class the character has, then spells per day, spells known, and caster level are determined accordingly."

{scrubbed}

[umbergod]

trying to boss people around in a thread is a fast track towards getting in trouble, just speakin from experience

edit: also, dweomerkeeper is not in an of itself a spellcasting class, as it has no spellcasting of its own, ergo it does not add 1.5 caster levels everytime you levelup and advance ur priest casting

[barna10]

trying to boss people around in a thread is a fast track towards getting in trouble, just speakin from experience

edit: also, dweomerkeeper is not in an of itself a spellcasting class, as it has no spellcasting of its own, ergo it does not add 1.5 caster levels everytime you levelup and advance ur priest casting

Then explain the "other" in the text? What does "The level of dweomerkeeper is added to the level of whatever other spellcasting class the character has, then spells per day, spells known, and caster level are determined accordingly." Why would "other" be necessary unless dweomerkeeper is a spellcasting class?

[umbergod]

Then explain the "other" in the text? What does "The level of dweomerkeeper is added to the level of whatever other spellcasting class the character has, then spells per day, spells known, and caster level are determined accordingly." Why would "other" be necessary unless dweomerkeeper is a spellcasting class?

It says that because you have to be able to cast both ARCANE and DIVINE spells to get into dweomerkeeper. Meaning you have to CHOOSE which to advance, the arcane class that got you into the prestige, or the divine which got you into the prestige. Also, your example in your first post won't work, as you need to have the magic domain. As an Ur-priest, you don't get domains.

[barna10]

It says that because you have to be able to cast both ARCANE and DIVINE spells to get into dweomerkeeper. Meaning you have to CHOOSE which to advance, the arcane class that got you into the prestige, or the divine which got you into the prestige. Also, your example in your first post won't work, as you need to have the magic domain. As an Ur-priest, you don't get domains.

Sure, in some weird language besides English maybe.

He gets the domain. Not an issue (he got it from an alternate source, move on)

[umbergod]

Sure, in some weird language besides English maybe.

He gets the domain. Not an issue (he got it from an alternate source, move on)

give me your sources for how all of this works. specific examples set up by someone other than yourself would be a good start. maybe something from this board, or brilliantgameologists, or the minmax boards. (protip: you won't find anyone that backs up your mistaken interpretation)

[mattie_p]

Ur-priest dips a level of any class that grants a domain (such as contemplative) to gain a domain. Ur-priest then casts substitute domain from complete champion to gain magic domain, and then is qualified via domains (temporarily, except he or she probably keeps substitute domain up 24/7).

[umbergod]

Ur-priest dips a level of any class that grants a domain (such as contemplative) to gain a domain. Ur-priest then casts substitute domain from complete champion to gain magic domain, and then is qualified via domains (temporarily, except he or she probably keeps substitute domain up 24/7).

still doesnt work for somehow getting 1.5 caster levels to ur priest every time you advance a prestige that gives +1 spellcasting level

[mattie_p]

still doesnt work for somehow getting 1.5 caster levels to ur priest every time you advance a prestige that gives +1 spellcasting level

You asked "how it all works," part of that is getting the domain. I gave the domain, the rest is up to him to argue.

[KhaineGB]

You're missing the argument here. Barna10 is arguing that Dweomerkeeper counts as a "spellcasting class" for the purposes of the Ur-Priest CL mechanic, as well as progressing Ur-Priest advancement. This interpretation does not just mean Dweomerkeeper levels can advance Ur-Priest casting (what your post is about), it means the Dweomerkeeper levels advance Ur-Priest casting and add an additional +1/2 to the Ur-Priest's caster level each Dweomerkeeper level.

Ah, yes... you're correct on that. My apologies. :)


I really wish some of you would learn patience and how to read English. Read the whole section:

"When a new level of dweomerkeeper is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class to which she belonged before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (improved chance of turning or rebuking undead, metamagic or item creation feats, and so on). The level of dweomerkeeper is added to the level of whatever other spellcasting class the character has, then spells per day, spells known, and caster level are determined accordingly."

Stop arguing unless you are going to actually read this stuff.

So let's take that one sentence...

The level of dweomerkeeper is added to the level of whatever other spellcasting class the character has, then spells per day, spells known, and caster level are determined accordingly.

Had you not noticed it's under the Spells per Day/Spells Known subheading? Basic english knowledge would tell you it's explaining that specific mechanic of the Dweomerkeeper prestiege class. It's basically telling you that you add your Dweomerkeeper level to whatever spellcasting class you have already.

Which means if you pick Ur-Priest, you just add a straight +10 to it (or whatever levels you have in Dweomerkeeper). Now, from Ur-Priest in the Book of Vile Darkness.

To determine the caster level of an Ur-Priest, add the character's ur-priest levels to one-half of her levels in other spellcasting classes.

Dweomerkeeper isn't a spellcasting class because it doesn't grant spells. It augments an already existing spellcasting class by adding spells per day/spells known to it.

So you can bolt on DK to UP, but your DK level's don't count for UP because it's not a spellcasting class. It doesn't have a spell list. It doesn't have a spell progression. It just makes an existing class better.

Thus you'd only get the +10 from that PrC, not +10 from the DK PrC followed by +5 from the UP PrC due to it's ability.

[umbergod]

OP is just going to say you're wrong until you give him sources backing up your claims...

[barna10]

So let's take that one sentence...

The level of dweomerkeeper is added to the level of whatever other spellcasting class the character has, then spells per day, spells known, and caster level are determined accordingly.

Had you not noticed it's under the Spells per Day/Spells Known subheading? Basic english knowledge would tell you it's explaining that specific mechanic of the Dweomerkeeper prestiege class. It's basically telling you that you add your Dweomerkeeper level to whatever spellcasting class you have already.



Again, the relevant word is "other". "The level of dweomerkeeper is added to the level of whatever other spellcasting class.." How can you have an "other" without something else to pair it with? I am willing to accept that the game designers poorly worded this section, but you can't redefine the English language just to make your point. This section clearly refers to the Dweomerkeeper as a spellcasting class. Whether it is or not might be up for debate, but whether this passage refers to the dweomerkeeper as a "spellcasting class" is not.

[KhaineGB]

Its not poorly worded. There is no redefinition of the english language.

The "other" in your case is either Ur-Priest or Duskblade. The PrC requires you to already be able to cast spells. It doesn't give you any spells, it just augments an existing class... and that is why its not a spellcasting class.

Come on, use some common sense here.

[umbergod]

Again, the relevant word is "other". "The level of dweomerkeeper is added to the level of whatever other spellcasting class.." How can you have an "other" without something else to pair it with? I am willing to accept that the game designers poorly worded this section, but you can't redefine the English language just to make your point. This section clearly refers to the Dweomerkeeper as a spellcasting class. Whether it is or not might be up for debate, but whether this passage refers to the dweomerkeeper as a "spellcasting class" is not.

OTHER is used to denote that the common method to entre DK is through multiclassing arcane and divine. Meaning OTHER is there because in normal circumstances, you have to PICK which base casting class to advance via DK. DK in and of itself has zero casting abilities. a character with 10 levels in DK and nothing else is not a spellcaster, as it doesnt have a spell list or a spell progression of its own.

EDIT:Khaine beat me to it :P

[lunar2]

yeah, if the other is there, then dweomerkeeper is a spellcasting class. that said, if you just want 1.5 to caster level, forget that. there is a version of ur-priest that, by trading in cleric levels, you can get 10th level ur-priest at level 10 (like blackguard and paladin). then go chameleon 10, and be a triple caster. you have 2 CL 20 caster progressions from chameleon, and 1 CL 30 progression from ur-priest.

[umbergod]

what Ur-priest are you looking at? Since I don't see anything about trading in cleric levels in either BoVD or CD

[Hecuba]

I am willing to accept that the game designers poorly worded this section, but you can't redefine the English language just to make your point.

That is in fact the case: "spellcasting class" is something that should have been a defined and reserved term, but is not.

In practice, however, a "spellcasting class" is generally taken to mean a class that grants it's own base progression. This is not only in keeping with WOTC's published opinions on the issue (which is surprisingly consistent), but also avoids issues with looping "+1 of existing spellcasting" (etc.) progressions.

[barna10]

Its not poorly worded. There is no redefinition of the english language.

The "other" in your case is either Ur-Priest or Duskblade. The PrC requires you to already be able to cast spells. It doesn't give you any spells, it just augments an existing class... and that is why its not a spellcasting class.

Come on, use some common sense here.

Sorry, if it said "added to either of the spellcasting classes" or "added to one of the spellcasting classes" then your point would make sense, but mentioning dweomerkeeper and some "other spellcasting class" in the same sentence implies that dweomerkeeper and this other class are both spellcasting classes. If dweomerkeeper were not a spellcasting class, the word other would not only not be necessary, but it wouldn't make any sense! It ONLY makes sense if dweomerkeeper IS a spellcasting class.

This is not a common sense issue, this is a language issue.

[barna10]

That is in fact the case: "spellcasting class" is something that should have been a defined and reserved term, but is not.

In practice, however, a "spellcasting class" is generally taken to mean a class that grants it's own base progression. This is not only in keeping with WOTC's published opinions on the issue (which is surprisingly consistent), but also avoids issues with looping "+1 of existing spellcasting" (etc.) progressions.

Do you have any of these published opinions? I have been looking all day for something close to official and haven't found squat. If you could provide some sort of source, that would be great!

[barna10]

OTHER is used to denote that the common method to entre DK is through multiclassing arcane and divine. Meaning OTHER is there because in normal circumstances, you have to PICK which base casting class to advance via DK.

Ok, so which class do you get to pick to advance? Answer: The "other" one. But which one is the "other" one? I haven't picked one yet! I pick Ur-Priest, but crap, I have to advance the "other" one, Duskblade.

If it simply said "other class", this would make sense but it specifically says "other spellcasting class". You need something to compare something to to figure out which one the other one is!

Imagine this: A man and his dog are walking down the street. I tell you to go pet one of them. You ask "Which one?" I say "The other dog". Does this make any sense?

Here's another one: A rock and a donut are sitting on the counter. I tell you to eat the other food.

In both these instances "other" is completely unnecessary, just like in the dweomerkeeper example.

Now, try this:
Two guys, Fred and Matt are walking down the street. I tell you "See that guy with Matt, go shake hands with the other guy."
or
There are two hot dogs on a counter. I tell you "The one on the right fell on the ground, don't eat it. Eat the other one."

These last two are appropriate uses of "other".

The dweomerkeeper example is a completely erroneous use of the word "other" UNLESS dweomerkeeper is a spellcaster. Again, I can accept that WOTC misworded this passage, but you cannot argue with me that the passage means something other than what it does as it is currently worded.

[Story]

Why does it even matter unless you're trying to create Pun-pun?

[barna10]

Why does it even matter unless you're trying to create Pun-pun?

It does have some implications. While the character in this case is an NPC, it may be a PC next time. Instead of wasting time debating with one of my players, I would like to be able to point to something official to solve the argument and move on.

Also, the flip-side of this that the Ur Priest can also be hindered by this same argument. Let's say I made him as Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Fighter 3/Dweomerkeeper 5/Ur Priest 2. Using the predominant logic on this board his caster level would be 2 or 3 (depending on if you allow 1/2 levels to be added). IF Dweomerkeeper is seen as a spellcaster class, the Ur Priest would have a caster level of 5.

Ur Priest DOES NOT add 1/2 of other spellcasting classes' "caster levels" only "class levels".

[olentu]

So yeah, I must admit that I am a bit curious as to why you have chosen to assume that every class is a spellcasting class. I would think that a better default assumption would be the opposite.

[Hecuba]

Its not poorly worded. There is no redefinition of the English language.

The "other" in your case is either Ur-Priest or Duskblade. The PrC requires you to already be able to cast spells. It doesn't give you any spells, it just augments an existing class... and that is why its not a spellcasting class.

I would disagree: it is indeed poorly worded (though I would throw one of my lighter books at my players if they tried using Barna's proposed readings). The construction pretty clearly uses other as a determiner: it serves to exclude the previously mentioned member of the relevant group.

Consider this: by your reading (and the rules I would actually use) Fighter and Dweomerkeeper are both NOT spellcasting classes. Try replacing the word "Dweomerkeeper" with "Fighter" in the sentence under question: do you see a problem with "The level of Fighter is added to [...] other spellcasting class teh character has."


Do you have any of these published opinions? I have been looking all day for something close to official and haven't found squat. If you could provide some sort of source, that would be great!

Opinions was probably the wrong word: "examples" would have been more accurate. If I'm recalling the last in depth discussion I read on this correctly, the particularly useful example was an Ultimate Magus example given somewhere that fails to function properly if "+1 existing Spellcasting class" et al count as spellcasting classes. I honestly don't remember which one though: possibly a Sage answer regarding that class?

[barna10]

I would disagree: it is indeed poorly worded (though I would throw one of my lighter books at my players if they tried using Barna's proposed readings). The construction pretty clearly uses other as a determiner: it serves to exclude the previously mentioned member of the relevant group.

Consider this: by your reading (and the rules I would actually use) Fighter and Dweomerkeeper are both NOT spellcasting classes. Try replacing the word "Dweomerkeeper" with "Fighter" in the sentence under question: do you see a problem with "The level of Fighter is added to [...] other spellcasting class teh character has."



Opinions was probably the wrong word: "examples" would have been more accurate. If I'm recalling the last in depth discussion I read on this correctly, the particularly useful example was an Ultimate Magus example given somewhere that fails to function properly if "+1 existing Spellcasting class" et al count as spellcasting classes. I honestly don't remember which one though: possibly a Sage answer regarding that class?

Thanks for the intelligent response (it is a rare bird indeed).

I am on the fence whether I will allow this or not. Most of my players are new and I am trying to as by the book as possible to provide a stable foundation. So, abusing this website to save my new players some headaches. Again, thanks for the intelligent response.

[barna10]

Hmm, I just thought of something. This could be interpreted differently.

So, let's say the Dweomerkeeper was Wizard 1/Cleric 4. When taking Dweomerkeeper level 1, we add +1 level to Cleric. Now, we continue reading and see that we are supposed to add the level of Dweomerkeeper to "whatever other spellcasting class" the character possesses. So we add Dweomerkeeper level 1 to Wizard (because we can't add it to Cleric because that would be the "other" class). The character now cast's as wizard 2/cleric 5.

Funky, but unless Dweomerkeeper is a spellcasting class, this is really the only other way I can interpret this.

[ngilop]

Hmm, I just thought of something. This could be interpreted differently.

So, let's say the Dweomerkeeper was Wizard 1/Cleric 4. When taking Dweomerkeeper level 1, we add +1 level to Cleric. Now, we continue reading and see that we are supposed to add the level of Dweomerkeeper to "whatever other spellcasting class" the character possesses. So we add Dweomerkeeper level 1 to Wizard (because we can't add it to Cleric because that would be the "other" class). The character now cast's as wizard 2/cleric 5.

Funky, but unless Dweomerkeeper is a spellcasting class, this is really the only other way I can interpret this.

Uhmm,, that is exactly how it is supposed to go note the followign quote form teh actual Dweomerkeeper class

If the character had more than one spellcasting class
before she became a dweomerkeeper, the player must
decide to which class to add each level of dweomerkeeper
for the purpose of determining spells per day
and spells known.

SO at each level you have to pick which spellcasting class you had previosuly to get into the DwK and accoridng to the previous paragrpah in there its whatever OTHER spellcasting class you have.

so TO me, it seems very simple that you are supposed to trade off every other level to your arcane and divine spell casting classes.

so all your odd levels would be for your arcane, while your even levels would be for your divine.. or Vice versa.

*hids behind a desk or something to shield him from the inevitble insults and derogatory remakrs that barna will hurl his way and whimpers cuz he don't even know the guy, why is he so angry.. maybe he just wasn't hugged as a child he thinks to himself.*

[barna10]

Uhmm,, that is exactly how it is supposed to go note the followign quote form teh actual Dweomerkeeper class


SO at each level you have to pick which spellcasting class you had previosuly to get into the DwK and accoridng to the previous paragrpah in there its whatever OTHER spellcasting class you have.

so TO me, it seems very simple that you are supposed to trade off every other level to your arcane and divine spell casting classes.

so all your odd levels would be for your arcane, while your even levels would be for your divine.. or Vice versa.


Please keep reading in that paragraph, past what you quoted.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Thread locked for review.