Combatting the charge

[Invader]

Just wondering what interesting ways the playground has found for combatting charging characters. I'm currently faced with 2 PC's with charging power attacking, great sword, etc. The problem is the party is low leveled so they can pretty much destroy CR appropriate monsters while the rest of the party is more evenly matched.

I know the easiest way is to just adjust HPS but that seems kind of uninspired. Is there a good way to even the playing field without also making it harder for the non charging characters?

[MagnusExultatio]

Grease and caltrops. Braced weapons. Readied actions. Uneven ground. Rope.

[LanSlyde]

Just wondering what interesting ways the playground has found for combatting charging characters. I'm currently faced with 2 PC's with charging power attacking, great sword, etc. The problem is the party is low leveled so they can pretty much destroy CR appropriate monsters while the rest of the party is more evenly matched.

I know the easiest way is to just adjust HPS but that seems kind of uninspired. Is there a good way to even the playing field without also making it harder for the non charging characters?

Steadfast boots and readied swift actions to activate Brutal Surge weapons.

[Toy Killer]

Given the restrictions to charging, you have plenty of options.

However, be sure to let your players have some fun with their builds. If every encounter is simply platforms and ice patches, they'll get frustrated quickly.

[Ravens_cry]

Grease (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/grease.htm). . .is the word.
***
Yeah, I know it has already been suggested, but damn I always wanted to say that.:smalltongue:

[Eric Scott]

You could use a Spiked Chain wielder with Stand Still... Or someone with a +1 Knockback Long Spear set against a charge...

[Togo]

High initiative monsters that charge or ready attack actions. Doors. Weak mooks in front of the main threat. Have terrain - even a simple inn room full of tables and chairs is impossible to charge in. Traps, such as pit traps. Twisty corridors.

Don't nerf the charge every time, but you need some variety in how encounters go. The most common reason for characters getting the charge off every time is simply the DM not using enough furniture in his room descriptions.

[Piggy Knowles]

Everything that was mentioned, but also...

Elusive Target feat. The vast majority of charge damage comes from Power Attack. Elusive Target eliminates the bonus damage from Power Attack (but leaves the penalties).

[Invader]

I def like the elusive target feat, I'll be trying it out in a few levels. I'm also guilty of providing to many opportunities for PC's to charge so ill try and change up some terrain.

[The Dark Fiddler]

I forget the specifics, but I'm pretty sure there's a few anti-charging maneuvers in the Tome of Battle... at the very least, there's Counter Charge.

There's also readying an action to move out of the way.

[Ravens_cry]

I def like the elusive target feat, I'll be trying it out in a few levels. I'm also guilty of providing to many opportunities for PC's to charge so ill try and change up some terrain.
As mentioned, don't do it all the time, as otherwise the one trick pony's will feel frustrated at their choice of feats not working.

[mattie_p]

Earlier in this forum we were discussing a vaguely related topic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264636) and cometary collision (PHB II) came up.

[Runestar]

Hold the line feat. (Complete warrior)

Dungeonscape even suggest giving it to carrion crawlers so they can paralyze any PC why charges them. :smallamused:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Earth Devotion feat (CC), immediate action to automatically cause a charge to fail, plus they have to make a Balance check or fall prone.

Any type of uneven ground or difficult terrain will completely thwart a charge. Note that most dungeons will have some sort of debris, bodies/bones, and/or a hewn stone floor, all of which requires a Balance check to move across. Any wilderness that's not an open field or a well maintained road will likewise be impossible to charge through. Towns and cities will often have a ditch by the road, some sort of boardwalk, possibly a curb, fences, debris, etc., all of which prevents charging. Indoor areas will have tables and chairs/benches and various other furniture. Any of those can have elevation differences, such as balconies, bluffs, or other high ground that's difficult for a melee character to even reach.

[Karoht]

Terrain.
Trees.
Corners.
Walls.
Any debuff that denies full round actions, limits movement, etc. Bestow Curse, Slow, etc.
Grease. Grease and Caltrops. Spike Stones/Growth is fun, the more patches of it they run through the more damage they take. Illusions of charge targets. Summons. Web. Sleet Storm. Any of the Fog spells, particularly Solid Fog. Flaming Sphere/Ball Lightning are fun.
Flying. If they can fly and charge, use Control Winds or Control Weather or Sirroco. If they can't fly, be flying.
Reverse Gravity. Because when it works it's hilarious.

But as mentioned, don't over-do it because it is remarkably easy to make a Charge focused character feel useless in a hurry.

[mattie_p]

Any type of uneven ground or difficult terrain will completely thwart a charge. Note that most dungeons will have some sort of debris, bodies/bones, and/or a hewn stone floor, all of which requires a Balance check to move across. Any wilderness that's not an open field or a well maintained road will likewise be impossible to charge through. Towns and cities will often have a ditch by the road, some sort of boardwalk, possibly a curb, fences, debris, etc., all of which prevents charging. Indoor areas will have tables and chairs/benches and various other furniture. Any of those can have elevation differences, such as balconies, bluffs, or other high ground that's difficult for a melee character to even reach.

Depending on the charger, we could have one or more of the following to deal with: travel devotion (move around the difficult terrain), leap attack (jump over it), twisted charge or psionic charge (turn 90 degrees around terrain), nimble charge (skill trick) or tumble while charging (rules compendium). Good ideas, but then chargers might get ideas....

Readied actions to stun/daze/whatever are good. Spells are always nice. You could even take one out before they charge.

[Gwendol]

Mooks and other obstacles.
Difficult terrain.
Deny line of sight. Even if the target is only lightly obscured it can hide, which may deny the charge.

[Phelix-Mu]

I agree about allowing the build to be useful, particularly in mass combat, where a charging PC slicing through orcs or whatever can have a big impact on enemy morale, and can also lead to some nice visuals.

On the other hand, big baddies should have some staunch defenses against this kind of stuff, or dragons and similar races would have long ago been Shocktroopered to death. I like to use monsters with abilities like that of hydras to catpitalize on AoO, along with knockdown techniques (some nice ones for monsters in Draconomicon and Savage Species).

Finally, enemies that have Travel Devotion, belt of battle (MIC), or contingent snake's swiftness spells/resetting snake's swiftness buff traps are all good options for giving an enemy extra actions in which to avoid charges and deal surprise damage to characters that do charge.

[Amphetryon]

So, Marbles, why do they call you "Marbles"?

[Karoht]

Reach. I always forget Reach.

Yeah, big creatures get bigger and bigger reach. It's not likely that a Charger is going to get beyond 15ft reach (totally possible, but I've rarely seen it happen) so start fighting bigger and bigger things if need be. Not every enemy on the field has to be huge -> colossal, or pack around crazy sized pole arms. Having one creature with a good reach and a bunch of smaller mooks works just fine.

In fact, that tends to be rather fun. The charger will zip around smashing the mooks to bits (Improved Overrun and Charge Through is loads of fun for smashing entire crowds of mooks), while the larger creature probably takes AoO's here and there. Meanwhile other members of the party will likely focus on the big guy and perform their roles as well. Typically it works out rather well.

[Thespianus]

Earth Devotion feat (CC), immediate action to automatically cause a charge to fail, plus they have to make a Balance check or fall prone.
Works great until you find a charger with Leap Attack (which is pretty much all of them ;) )

[Invader]

So assuming a charger is charging through and area effected by a grease spell is the charge automatically stopped regardless of whether or not they make the save/check?

[Amphetryon]

So assuming a charger is charging through and area effected by a grease spell is the charge automatically stopped regardless of whether or not they make the save/check?

If they're in a Frenzy, they cannot attempt the check, and Frenzy plays a prominent role in several Charger builds. Otherwise, the DC is sufficient to make ranks in Balance necessary for reasonable odds of success, and most folks don't invest in Balance until they're given a reason to do so.

[Piggy Knowles]

If they're in a Frenzy, they cannot attempt the check, and Frenzy plays a prominent role in several Charger builds. Otherwise, the DC is sufficient to make ranks in Balance necessary for reasonable odds of success, and most folks don't invest in Balance until they're given a reason to do so.

Just about any character I've ever made with ANY skill ranks to spare gets 5 ranks in Balance, unless I've got a really good in-character reason not to.

[Amphetryon]

Just about any character I've ever made with ANY skill ranks to spare gets 5 ranks in Balance, unless I've got a really good in-character reason not to.

You have enough Op-Fu to possess "a reason to do so," in other words.

[Thespianus]

So assuming a charger is charging through and area effected by a grease spell is the charge automatically stopped regardless of whether or not they make the save/check?

With Leap Attack (which they very likely will have) he can jump over the Grease area, to continue the charge.

[Amphetryon]

With Leap Attack (which they very likely will have) he can jump over the Grease area, to continue the charge.

Invisible Spell, multiple patches of Grease, other methods of BFC to eliminate the desire to jump. . . .

[Andezzar]

Reach. I always forget Reach.Unless the opponent has Stand Still or some similar ability, the AoO does not stop the charge. It merely deals damage (and associated effects). If that does not impede movement the charge will continue.

[LTwerewolf]

Invisible spell wall of force.

[TuggyNE]

Invisible spell wall of force.

Um, wall of force is already invisible. Are you suggesting Invisible invisibility-style shenanigans?

[Karoht]

Unless the opponent has Stand Still or some similar ability, the AoO does not stop the charge. It merely deals damage (and associated effects). If that does not impede movement the charge will continue.
Sometimes punishing the charge with an AoO or two is all you need.
You don't necessarily have to stop the charge in it's tracks, though stopping/preventing the charge is the better option tactically.

[Grendus]

Unless the opponent has Stand Still or some similar ability, the AoO does not stop the charge. It merely deals damage (and associated effects). If that does not impede movement the charge will continue.

Trip and disarm can both be used on AoO's. Longspears do double damage when set against charge, which can be brutal at lower levels. Two enemies with set longspears side by side could seriously mess up a charger who wasn't careful.

Also, enemies that fly or can walk on the walls can avoid grounded chargers, or at least require that they get more creative. Enemies with a miss chance can avoid the attack. Chargers tend to have poor will saves, throw some illusions at them. Toss in a hoard of mooks so they can only take so much of the encounter HP in one attack.

[Ravens_cry]

How exactly does setting against a charge work?:smallconfused:

[Karoht]

I was under the impression that one could not make special attacks as an Attack of Opportunity unless it is automatically part of a normal attack. IE-The free Trip on a Wolf's Bite attack. But I can't find anything on the SRD to confirm this.
If that is the case, then yes, enemies with reach and a special attack (Trip, Bullrush, Grapple, Grab, etc) would be very effective VS chargers.

[awa]

you use a weapon that has the ability to set against a charge then you spend a standard action to set then the next time you hit a foe who charged you deal double damage.

Many (but not all) set weapons have reach allowing you to instantly make use of that set action.

[Andezzar]

Trip and disarm can both be used on AoO's.No they can't. Bullrush/Grapple/Trip can't be used as they are initiated with a melee touch attack not a normal melee attack. Disarm does not work either, since there is no attack in the disarm procedure at all merely opposed attack rolls.

Longspears do double damage when set against charge, which can be brutal at lower levels. Two enemies with set longspears side by side could seriously mess up a charger who wasn't careful.Setting a weapon against a charge only does anything if someone charges the wielder. If the charger does not have an ability to charge more than one target at a time, he cannot run into more than one spear.


you use a weapon that has the ability to set against a charge then you spend a standard action to set then the next time you hit a foe who charged you deal double damage.

Many (but not all) set weapons have reach allowing you to instantly make use of that set action.Actually you can do that with any weapon, the type of weapon simply determines if the damage is doubled.

[Flickerdart]

Steadfast boots and readied swift actions to activate Brutal Surge weapons.
You can't ready a swift action; only a standard, move, or free.

[Dimers]

Invisible Spell, multiple patches of Grease, other methods of BFC to eliminate the desire to jump. . . .

Low ceilings. Seriously, we're in dungeons, why should we assume there's tons of headroom?

[TuggyNE]

No they can't. Bullrush/Grapple/Trip can't be used as they are initiated with a melee touch attack not a normal melee attack. Disarm does not work either, since there is no attack in the disarm procedure at all merely opposed attack rolls.

Source for this? Bullrush, of course, is a standard action or part of a charge; it's therefore not eligible for the (effective) attack action an AoO gives. Grapple requires an extra free action to start, so arguably cannot be started on another's turn. However, both Disarm and Trip are noted as attack actions ("As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent." / "You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack."), and can therefore be attempted as part of a full attack or as an AoO. I'm not aware of any text or implication anywhere that states that AoOs cannot include melee touch attacks. And, of course, an AoO is defined as follows: "An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm#makinganAttackofOpportuni ty).

[mattie_p]

The 3.5 Main FAQ agrees with tuggyne here.


Can you make a trip attack (or other special attack) as an attack of opportunity?

Yes, as long as you make the trip attack (or other special attack) with a weapon with which you threaten the target. For example, unless you wield a weapon that allows you to make a trip attack, trip attacks are unarmed attacks; a character who doesn’t threaten while unarmed couldn’t make an unarmed trip attack as an attack of opportunity.

[soveliss24]

If a character had Hold the Line and Stand Still, AND set their reach polearm against a charge, would they be able to make first an AoO (giving up its damage to end the movement and ruin the charge) then the normal readied attack? Or would the charge stopping from Stand Still mean that the conditions for the readied action were no longer met, wasting the readied action?

EDIT: Disregard, as I forgot Stand Still only applies to AoOs from the enemy leaving a threatened square. Oh well, it was a fun idea...

[LanSlyde]

You can't ready a swift action; only a standard, move, or free.

Rules Compendium, page 110. You can ready a standard, move, swift, or free.

Boom.

[Sayt]

A slightly more mundane approach: longspears, or something with reach and brace. Twelve guys in two ranks, brace against a charge. They smack one or two guys, and then have to deal with the rest of them. Maybe with a patch of grease in front of the phalanx, and a support caster or two, if you can fit them into the CR.

[Flickerdart]

Rules Compendium, page 110. You can ready a standard, move, swift, or free.

Boom.
They changed it, now it sucks. :smalltongue:

[herrhauptmann]

you use a weapon that has the ability to set against a charge then you spend a standard action to set then the next time you hit a foe who charged you deal double damage.

Many (but not all) set weapons have reach allowing you to instantly make use of that set action.

Steadfast boots, MiC.
Any 2handed weapon you wield is automatically set against a charge. So now you can set a spiked chain against a charge. Deal double damage, etc etc.
If you've got reach (spiked chain, ogre with greatsword, whatever), you get the Set attack from the boots as soon as he enters your reach, and you get an AOO as soon as he exits a square you threaten.

[Grendus]

No they can't. Bullrush/Grapple/Trip can't be used as they are initiated with a melee touch attack not a normal melee attack. Disarm does not work either, since there is no attack in the disarm procedure at all merely opposed attack rolls.

Source? Considering the melee tripper is the classic area denial melee build, I find it much more likely that you're speaking out of an anal orifice than that the entire optimizing community overlooked a basic rule for years.


Setting a weapon against a charge only does anything if someone charges the wielder. If the charger does not have an ability to charge more than one target at a time, he cannot run into more than one spear.

Again, source? The SRD (as well as the PHB) doesn't specify that they have to charge you. For example, the passage on longspears (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm) says "If you use a ready action to set a longspear against a charge, you deal double damage on a successful hit against a charging character". At no point does it specify that the character has to be charging at you, or even towards you, if an enemy moves into your threatened space while taking a charge action you can use a readied action with specific weapons for double damage.


Large enemies with Halberds could be a good way to keep them on their toes. Defend for double damage, AoO trip, move back, repeat. Easy enough to take out with teamwork, but fairly charge resistant without being DM fiat - it's all core.

[LanSlyde]

They changed it, now it sucks. :smalltongue:

Lovely |-_-|.

Well thats another alteration I'll be ignoring. It really makes no sense that you can ready a Standard action (more time) and a Free action (less time) but not a Swift action (mid time).

[Phaederkiel]

watch it with the steadfast, they are pretty difficult with the rules (as in giving an action without needing anything to invest). I ruled them that they at least use up an immedieate.


I have quite some experience with chargers
(having had a party with a spirited charge ride by CENTAUR and a karmic strike robilars gambit heedless charger with leading the charge)
the advise I would give is such:

AoO are your best friend against the charger. They get to deal their damage and are on the other hand endangered by their own tactic.

Use the ToB countermaneuvers. I had a beautiful bossfight when that guy used countercharge to trip the centaur. You should have seen the players face.

wings of cover is great against chargers, since they often can only attack once. They hated that sorc.

Mage hand set to shut doors is always a hoot.

Probably most important: bring out critters who can take a charge or two.
Players will be happy if they can deal their damage.

oh, and ban about half the charging options. Make your players understand that truly optimizing charging has two possible outcomes: laughably easy encounters or permanent nerfs to their one trick pony.