Kingdom in a literal vacuum

[Silva Stormrage]

In a campaign I am in that should reach epic levels I plan to try to take over the world (Evil party). And once I hit epic I should be able to make a demiplane of fairly arbitrarily large size. I was planning on putting my empire in that one demiplane so I don't have to compete with other nations for land.

As my party and empire will be undead at this point I was thinking of removing all the air in the demiplane but I am not sure what exactly this would do in the plane as this type of physics was never my strong suit.

Sound wouldn't travel correct? So I would need some way of getting everyone telepathy. Would spells with verbal components still work? Or would I need to try and adjust the magic aspect of the demiplane to make all spells have the silent spell metamagic.

Would lightning or fire spells work at all? Lightning travels between the condensed air molecules right? And fire requires oxygen to work. Or would they just be bursts of temperature/charged particles and still function normally (Like how fire spells work underwater they just make steam instead).

What would happen to liquids in the plane? Would they just vaporize over time?

Any other effects that you can think of on the plane or kingdom?

[Story]

I don't think there's anything in the rules forbidding lightning and fire in a vacuum. Just try not to kill too many catgirls.

[Silva Stormrage]

I don't think there's anything in the rules forbidding lightning and fire in a vacuum. Just try not to kill too many catgirls.

Well I don't think there are ANY rules for a vacuum. Or at least I couldn't find any. And still I don't mind killing catgirls XD.

[Laserlight]

As my party and empire will be undead at this point I was thinking of removing all the air in the demiplane but I am not sure what exactly this would do in the plane as this type of physics was never my strong suit.


Your main problem is that liquids would evaporate. Bone, flesh, leather, etc, would dry out and become brittle or fall apart. Including you.

Also:
Without air, you wouldn't have normal sound, lightning, or fire.
Sound would still travel through solids, although you would sense it as vibrations through your hands, feet etc rather than as sound, the way a snake feels your footsteps as you walk by.
Lightning would be tricky; you could generate a stream of charged particles, but the particles would all have the same electrical charge and would repel each other, so your stream would tend to disperse. You could, however, generate a neutral particle stream, with no electrical charge.
You could presumably generate magical fire with its own oxidizer. Because it's magic.
Temperatures would go from "Hot" during the day to "Freezing cold" at night.

[Nightpenguin]

In a campaign I am in that should reach epic levels I plan to try to take over the world (Evil party). And once I hit epic I should be able to make a demiplane of fairly arbitrarily large size. I was planning on putting my empire in that one demiplane so I don't have to compete with other nations for land.

As my party and empire will be undead at this point I was thinking of removing all the air in the demiplane but I am not sure what exactly this would do in the plane as this type of physics was never my strong suit.

Alright, I'm not great with physics but I'll give this a shot.


Sound wouldn't travel correct? So I would need some way of getting everyone telepathy. Would spells with verbal components still work? Or would I need to try and adjust the magic aspect of the demiplane to make all spells have the silent spell metamagic.
Sound would not travel, and spells with verbal components would fail.


Would lightning or fire spells work at all? Lightning travels between the condensed air molecules right?
I'm not 100% sure about this, but it appears that although normal lightning does travel through air, you can make electrical arcs in vacuums. It would probably be harder than normal electric effects though.


And fire requires oxygen to work. Or would they just be bursts of temperature/charged particles and still function normally (Like how fire spells work underwater they just make steam instead).
No fire without oxygen, and the steam thing doesn't really apply. There's no such thing as temperature in a vacuum; temperature can be thought of as molecular vibrations in a medium. No medium, no temperature, no heat effect.


What would happen to liquids in the plane? Would they just vaporize over time?
Liquids would boil into a cloud of fine crystals.


Any other effects that you can think of on the plane or kingdom?
Ranged spells and other attacks not affected by gravity would be hard to rule as having limited range.

[Silva Stormrage]

Hm interesting. Why would solid masses start to deteriorate though? asteroids seems to be fine in the vacuum of space? Also I think undead would be immune to that as their ability to withstand natural decay would be the same thing.

Good point about fire spells not functioning due to heat. I don't think I need to worry about ludicrous temperature due to undead being immune to most of the effects of heat (And it wouldn't get that hot there is no sun).

There is still gravity in the demiplane though as the demiplane generates it's own gravity (MAGIC!).

[Larkas]

IIRC, and I might be misremembering, the plane of negative energy IS a vacuum! I recommend checking that out in Manual of the Planes, and if that's the case, model your plane after it! :)

[Silva Stormrage]

IIRC, and I might be misremembering, the plane of negative energy IS a vacuum! I recommend checking that out in Manual of the Planes, and if that's the case, model your plane after it! :)

You are right... I am looking at the manual of the planes right now. The only thing it mentions is that a bird can't fly by flapping it's wings. There isn't anything else about the lack of air though.

Apparently undead survive fine in a vacuum though.

[Larkas]

It seems to be fantastic vacuum, but it might be better to go that route than try to emulate real vacuum. Arguably, at the very least the undead would be frozen in place in a place like that, since their joints themselves would be frozen solid. And that's just one thing to have in mind! Too much work to be worth it, IMHO.

[demigodus]

About people saying that liquids would evaporate:
They only evaporate until they produce a gas above their own surface that has a specific (and rather low) pressure. In the vacuum of real world space, yes, this does mean that all the liquid is going to vaporize rather quickly. However, a demi-plane does not go on for infinity. It is of rather limited size, so any fluid, if brought in sufficient quantities, will just create a very small atmosphere of itself, and the rest will stay as liquid. Note that this small amount of pressure is per type of fluid you bring in. So if you have water and some poison that isn't just stuff dissolved in water, you are going to have an atmosphere composed of both that has as high a concentration of water vapor as if there was only water, and as high a concentration of the poison as if there was only the poison.

tl;dr : fluids can exist. However, they will create their own atmosphere composed of themselves first. If you have enough of the fluid. If you don't, all of it is just going to vaporize, and be gone.


It seems to be fantastic vacuum, but it might be better to go that route than try to emulate real vacuum. Arguably, at the very least the undead would be frozen in place in a place like that, since their joints themselves would be frozen solid. And that's just one thing to have in mind! Too much work to be worth it, IMHO.

Actually, once again there is a difference between the real world vacuum of space, and the vacuum of a tiny demi-plane. You can in fact warm the demi-plane up enough so that this never happens. Thing is, there is no where for any of the heat in the demi-plane to go (unlike real world space where it can go off an infinite distance away). Consequently, the average temp of the demi-plane will stay constant, and your undead will never cool down.


I'm not 100% sure about this, but it appears that although normal lightning does travel through air, you can make electrical arcs in vacuums. It would probably be harder than normal electric effects though.

Actually, the electric field necessary to create a lightning effect in a vacuum is SLIGHTLY less then it is in our atmosphere. (slightly like around a percent, or a fraction of a percent. Don't remember the exact number, but it is by a trivial amount).

[docnessuno]

How about an easier solution, saving you from countless headaches?
Instead of removing all the air in the demiplane, remove all the oxygen.
Or fill it with highly poisonous gases.

[Wookie-ranger]

Necklace of Adaptation

This necklace is a heavy chain with a platinum medallion. The magic of the necklace wraps the wearer in a shell of fresh air, making him immune to all harmful vapors and gases (such as cloudkill and stinking cloud effects, as well as inhaled poisons) and allowing him to breathe, even underwater or in a vacuum.

Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, alter self; Price 9,000 gp.

For you, Good Sir or Madame, I have a SPECIAL offer!
For the inexpensive price of 9,000gp we can solve ALL* or your problems!
-Need to cast spells with verbal components? Done!
-worried about evaporation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaporation#Factors_influencing_the_rate_of_evapor ation) and sublimation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublimation_%28phase_transition%29)? Done!
-you are still a living meat-bag? Gross, but this will help you too!

*(more like a few, but its a start)


alternatively:
It might e easier to fill your entire plane with 'air' but not with oxygen. There is a whole host of gasses that 'look' and 'feel' like air, but cannot support life (as we know it)
You can be simple and recreate the air as it is on earth, just with 0% O2.
Or:
you could find someone with far more chemistry knowledge then I have and come up with a gas that acts exactly like O2 in regards to fire, static charges (lightning spells), and evaporation, and add this to your 'air'.

Edit: Ninjaed out of bloody nowhere! :smallannoyed:

[Chilingsworth]

There's a sort of paraelemental plane of vacuum mentioned in Fiendish Codex 1, within the descripition of Grazzat's city. (Apparently, some of the portals in the city lead to it because the demons tried conquering it and pissed off the natives in ancient times.) It's not much, but there are rules for exposure to vacuum there.

[Phelix-Mu]

There used to be some kind of exposure rules in 2nd edition for Spelljammer. I imagine that this has been 3rd partied or Dragon Magazined or homebrewed, since Spelljammer was a pretty awesome setting. Some parts of the space between the Crystal Spheres was atmosphere, but I seem to remember lots being just space, requiring magical protection to travel there.

[Talderas]

Sound wouldn't travel correct? So I would need some way of getting everyone telepathy.

Sound travels by vibrating particles. Sounds will travel through solid material.


Would spells with verbal components still work? Or would I need to try and adjust the magic aspect of the demiplane to make all spells have the silent spell metamagic.

Verbal components means you need to be able to speak in a strong voice to vocalize the incantation to make it work. If you have a spell that keeps your lungs filled with air then you can still cast spells since you can still expel the air from your lungs. If you speak without using air passing along vocal chords, then a vacuum will not prevent you from casting a spell with a verbal component. What it will do is make it more difficult to identify a spell being cast since you can't hear the verbal component.


Would lightning or fire spells work at all? Lightning travels between the condensed air molecules right? And fire requires oxygen to work. Or would they just be bursts of temperature/charged particles and still function normally (Like how fire spells work underwater they just make steam instead).

They would work because they're magic. Magic fire and lightning, unless stated otherwise, doesn't set things on fire so it's not following the normal rules of physics.


Any other effects that you can think of on the plane or kingdom?

Well, basically any of the effects caused by a vacuum.... http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970603.html

Since it is a vacuum ranged attack range increments should be increased due to a lack of air resistance but not by too much since gravity is still a factor.

[Psyren]

The epic spell Nailed to the Sky (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/nailedToTheSky.htm) has some vacuum rules, but it's not a true vacuum itself. It may give you a starting point though.