Help: E6 PsiWar/Swordsage

[Sziget Pengék]

So, I am playing in a psionics fractional 40pt e6 game(starting at Lvl.3) as a Xeph PsiWar/Swordsage. Most of the reasons behind the classes are for flavour, but i would like to optimize what i can.

The way the Xeph are flavoured in this game is as 'Psionically Amish' where they use psionics to increase efficiency but not to do a job outright.

Current Thoughts:

STR:15-2:13------1.Swordsage; ExWeapProf: Thinblade.
DEX:15+2:17------2.Psionic Warrior; Weapon Finesse
CON:10-----------3.Swordsage; Psychic Renewal.
INT:12------------4.Psionic Warrior; Instant Clarity; +1 DEX(18)
WIS:18-----------5.Swordsage
CHA:10-----------6.Swordsage; Psionic Weapon
5k: .25bab (homebrew e6 fractional feat)
10k: .25bab
15k: Deep Impact



Dex/Wis based. Avoiding too much min-max.






How would you build it(human not available, race Xeph)?

[Fouredged Sword]

In general martial classes should go to the end of a build. Psi-War is hurting for PP anyway, so don't be afraid to bunch those levels up.

I am thinking a setting sun tripper/thrower. Get big with expansion and BFC through area denial. Try to get more PP somehow. Stones may work for you.

Another option is to go claws and tiger. Burst will give you a nice boost to jump checks and sudden leap will allow you to cross a lot of ground. Get blood in the water and go crit fishing.

[Axier]

Do you have access to Complete Psionics?

How about some ardent?

Okay, cheesy and questionable ways to get 4th level powers, and any 3rd level or lower powers while multiclassing aside, the problem with E6, dipping psiwar, and the like will give you a solid lack of powers.

If you have 4 levels of PsiWar and 2 levels of Swordsage, you get an initiator level of 4, and you get 2nd level Powers I believe for your PsiWar side. It would hurt your number of strikes and stances, but there is a feat for that.

[Fouredged Sword]

Actualy I would go Psiwar 4 / Swordsage 2. You don't lose an initiator level and get 2nd level powers and more pp. It is a 2 point bump rather than the 1 point per level pp advancement you had for all levels before that. If you need a particular stance or strike you can still get it with a feat, as you didn't loose an initiator level.

[Sziget Pengék]

I've explored the options of ardent, and also 4 PsiWar/2 ss, but I have found that i like the maneuver mechanics much more than psi powers(and given the flavour of the xeph it makes more sense to build primarily ss), and ardent only has access to the powers in its mantles, which are pretty limited at lower levels, it doesnt get bonus feats, and it has lower hd.

The only reason i dont have psiwar bunched at 1 and 2 is mostly because of flavour, training martial skill before psionic skill. I realise this is not optimal, but i still have access to 3rd lvl maneuvers and stances, and the lower level stances scale well enough that i'm not too worried about having more lvl 3s than 2s and 1s. The feat spread helps me at lower levels, and the 6+int skillpoints is excellent for a skill based class like both ss and psiwar. I can also always get higher maneuvers from feats later if needed, unless i'm mistaken.

Ill still think on what you all have suggested up until game start, i'm just listing the reasons behind the way ive built it differently from those suggestions for some feedback.

Anyone have feat suggestions? Or a way to get more Powerpoints?
If only it was e7 haha so i could take the first two levels of warmind, many more powerpoints, same access to powers as the psiwar, full bab. Better augment to the ss class. would miss out on the bonus feats though.

Also, thanks all.:]

[Fouredged Sword]

Is there a reason you are attached to a thinblade? It may be better to go with a shadow hand weapon. There is a martial feat that lets you add dex to damage with shadow hand weapons in a shadow hand stance. There are some nice low level shadow hand stances, like the 20% concealment when moving more than 10ft one. Considering you are capping out a +4 bab you don't get iterative, so you loose little for moving before each attack. Max out tumble to move through combat.

Also Cognizance Crystals are your friend. Your powers cost 1pp to manifest. 1000gp gets you a 1pp crystal to recharge as needed. That drops to 500 if you are willing to spend a feat to get the craft Cognizance Crystals feat. That is cheep enough to let you get several. It isn't as good as natural PP, but it will help extend the work day for you.

Also, read through your powers chosen. If you have some rounds/level powers then maybe you should consider taking practiced manifester. It is ether hit or miss depending on your power selection.

Hope that helps.

[Zonugal]

It's a shame you aren't using the Ardent as you could snag a 3rd-level power & 3rd-level maneuvers. Put your first level of Ardent at 2nd-level, pick up Practiced Manifester as your 3rd-level feat and finish the build off with the 2nd-level of Ardent. You can know pick up any 1st & 2nd-level power via Expanded Knowledge and still have a BaB of +4.

[Sziget Pengék]

Is there a reason you are attached to a thinblade? It may be better to go with a shadow hand weapon. There is a martial feat that lets you add dex to damage with shadow hand weapons in a shadow hand stance.

Thin blade counts as rapier(shadow) and longsword for weapon focus, which works with the wording of the abilities of the swordsage. Its also a 1d8 that can be finessed which is golden for a race with a -2 to str.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would still go for shadow hand before I tried to work in the thinblade. Dex to damage will benifit you more than the +1 equivelent of a D8 over a D6

[Sziget Pengék]

I have changed my weapon to a variation of the spiked chain i worked out with my DM, its loses the +2 to disarm and changes to slashing, and is flavoured as a mid-length polearm(between spiked chain and guisarme mechanic wise). As for its use with different schools, that is something we are going to look at later.

I may take psi-war for my first two levels for the higher maneuvers, though that means that i would have to wait for Instant clarity till 6th, which i feel is essential to the usefulness of the build.

Also, the dex to damage is only in a shadow stance which, while awesome, limits me more which i dont really want to happen. Ill get wis to damage at SS4, so theres that atleast.

[Sziget Pengék]

I would still go for shadow hand before I tried to work in the thinblade. Dex to damage will benifit you more than the +1 equivelent of a D8 over a D6

Another thing is that the -2 to strength only lowers damage by 1, so its effectively evening it out.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Another thing is that the -2 to strength only lowers damage by 1, so its effectively evening it out.

Right, but Shadow Blade (which requires a Shadow Hand weapon, and that you be in a Shadow Hand stance to use it) adds DEX to damage (in addition to STR). That would effectively add +4 to damage, which exceeds any contribution the thinblade makes, which is what he's getting at.

It really depends on what you're going for here. A build with four levels in an initiator class gets an IL of 5 (4 + 2[1/2]), which means one third-level maneuver (plus any others you pick up through Martial Study), but you're not really going to be able to do *anything* with your Psychic Warrior levels; you won't even have enough power points to use Expansion meaningfully, which doesn't matter much anyway, as you really need a manifester level of 3 to do so anyway (so you can extend the duration to 10 mins/lvl by augmenting it). That really is what makes this power worth using in any melee build.

Like others might, I would suggest Psychic Warrior 4/Swordsage 2. If you swear off your Swordsage levels until the 5th level, then your first level will be at IL3 (1 + 4[1/2]), so all 6 of your starting maneuvers can be selected from the best of the first- and second-level maneuvers, instead of requiring your first 6 maneuvers to be first-level maneuvers (which is what taking your first level of Swordsage requires you do if you take it before 5). You'll never get third-level maneuvers, but all the best third-level maneuvers are exclusive to Warblades and Crusaders anyway (Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, Revitalizing Strike). In this way, the "mile wide, inch deep" strategy prevails for a Psychic Warrior/Swordsage in E6, as you get a massive number of second-level maneuvers (at the cost of the one third-level maneuver you'd get without feats), and second-level powers.

[Sziget Pengék]

Right, but Shadow Blade (which requires a Shadow Hand weapon, and that you be in a Shadow Hand stance to use it) adds DEX to damage (in addition to STR). That would effectively add +4 to damage, which exceeds any contribution the thinblade makes, which is what he's getting at.

It really depends on what you're going for here. A build with four levels in an initiator class gets an IL of 5 (4 + 2[1/2]), which means one third-level maneuver (plus any others you pick up through Martial Study), but you're not really going to be able to do *anything* with your Psychic Warrior levels; you won't even have enough power points to use Expansion meaningfully, which doesn't matter much anyway, as you really need a manifester level of 3 to do so anyway (so you can extend the duration to 10 mins/lvl by augmenting it). That really is what makes this power worth using in any melee build.

Like others might, I would suggest Psychic Warrior 4/Swordsage 2. If you swear off your Swordsage levels until the 5th level, then your first level will be at IL3 (1 + 4[1/2]), so all 6 of your starting maneuvers can be selected from the best of the first- and second-level maneuvers, instead of requiring your first 6 maneuvers to be first-level maneuvers (which is what taking your first level of Swordsage requires you do if you take it before 5). You'll never get third-level maneuvers, but all the best third-level maneuvers are exclusive to Warblades and Crusaders anyway (Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, Revitalizing Strike). In this way, the "mile wide, inch deep" strategy prevails for a Psychic Warrior/Swordsage in E6, as you get a massive number of second-level maneuvers (at the cost of the one third-level maneuver you'd get without feats), and second-level powers.

With the psychic renewal and Instant clarity feats, i can achieve an awesome synergy between the two classes in relation to psionic weapon and maneuver use, which get much more brutal when i get greater psi weapon and deep impact: drop psi-focus for psionic weapon 2d6, use and hit with maneuver to regain psi-focus, repeat until out of maneuvers, use power points to get maneuvers back, hit with maneuver and regain psi-focus, drop focus for psi-weapon, repeat until out of maneuvers. I think i can psi-weapon and maneuver at the same time aswell, which makes my hits do an extra 2d6 basically for free, but i am not sure.

basically gives me a ton of battle endurance, pretty decent damage, with little downtime. It would be better built outside of e6 where i would have some more levels to work with and could take dips in WarMind for the full bab and power points.


Also, i hope no-one is taking my replies as blind arguing, just offering a counter example until something is agreed on. I see and take into account the merits and demerits of everything that is posted.

[Fouredged Sword]

That is acualy a very cool plan. I would then focus on strikes, preferably single hit strikes that improve your ability to land the hit, mixed with some nice + damage attacks.

I would go Psi/war 4 // swordsage 2, as you are not loosing an initiator level and still get 3rd level strikes unless I am mistaken. You may have to take a feat for them, but still.

Mountain Hammer, Dimond mind strike that makes foes flat footed, Desert wind + damage strikes, Tiger claw rabid strikes, all these sound like good choices.

[Lonely Tylenol]

With the psychic renewal and Instant clarity feats, i can achieve an awesome synergy between the two classes in relation to psionic weapon and maneuver use, which get much more brutal when i get greater psi weapon and deep impact: drop psi-focus for psionic weapon 2d6, use and hit with maneuver to regain psi-focus, repeat until out of maneuvers, use power points to get maneuvers back, hit with maneuver and regain psi-focus, drop focus for psi-weapon, repeat until out of maneuvers. I think i can psi-weapon and maneuver at the same time aswell, which makes my hits do an extra 2d6 basically for free, but i am not sure.

basically gives me a ton of battle endurance, pretty decent damage, with little downtime. It would be better built outside of e6 where i would have some more levels to work with and could take dips in WarMind for the full bab and power points.

I agree with Fouredged Sword: This is a cool tactic. I must still ask, though: is it made significantly better by having more Swordsage levels than Psychic Warrior levels? If so, how?


That is acualy a very cool plan. I would then focus on strikes, preferably single hit strikes that improve your ability to land the hit, mixed with some nice + damage attacks.

I would go Psi/war 4 // swordsage 2, as you are not loosing an initiator level and still get 3rd level strikes unless I am mistaken. You may have to take a feat for them, but still.

Unfortunately, you are mistaken. His current plan gives him an IL of 5 (4 + 2[1/2]), with access to third-level maneuvers (and one from his last level). Reversing the level ratio gives an IL of 4 (2 + 4[1/2]), with access to second-level maneuvers.

I still maintain that this is the better route, however, because there is only one Swordsage-ready third-level maneuver truly worth the investment (Insightful Strike, from the Diamond Mind school), and it's not worth having a large set of first-level strikes that won't see as much use, much less sacrificing a solid use of the Expansion power to double your effective range and increase your damage by one step on whatever weapon you use.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would go Psiwar 4 / SS 2 and beg my DM for a E6 feat that can be taken after 6th for +1 Initiator level.

Even then you are getting one third level strike in return for 3pp a second level power. The build is very power point starved, and burning pp for recovery will go through that quickly.

[Sziget Pengék]

I agree with Fouredged Sword: This is a cool tactic. I must still ask, though: is it made significantly better by having more Swordsage levels than Psychic Warrior levels? If so, how?



I did an expansion/invis(in special occasions) based dueregar version of this in the reverse build, it was good but didnt have much lasting power or battle versatility and also no use outside of battle due to painfully low skill points. The build being focused on Swordsage does infact have this. Another thing is that the psi-warrior's powers are almost all standard action buffs for things i can gain in a stance or with a maneuver. Rather than wasting time on buffing, i can get right in and do well(both defensively and offensively) from start to finish for longer than the Psi-Warrior, and on top of it all the powerpoints are DAILY where as maneuvers refresh per battle. The ability to use psionic weapon fills the voids and gives me the option to fight large groups effectively or to nova on a single strong monster. The maneuvers of all levels are great, i would take most of even the first and second level maneuvers over even 4th level powers, which wouldnt be available to me until 10th level, which i still wouldnt even get because its e6. I get that you can scale up the powers, but not usually far enough to justify having them, or the time they take.

Also, Expansion is still a first lvl power, so i still have that option but i dont have to rely on it.


Simply i would put it as: Staying power/Action economy/Versatility > Nova/Niche; which is a bit hard to even stick with because i can still Nova/Niche if i want to, at the expense of a bit of versatility for that encounter, and still be good for however many encounters may happen that day.

Another thought is that most of the standard action maneuvers do what full attacks cant mimic until the mid teens on a 3/4 bab class, and still allow a move action which makes all of the ToB classes more than able to contend with a wide variety of terrain and can be played more tactically rather than the run for the enemy and smash it before it kills you from afar mentality that is almost guaranteed for a melee character.


Also, thank you both for liking the idea; both feats are swift action to use, but since its e6 i likely wont have much else to be using my swift action on haha.

[Sziget Pengék]

Just found a feat that give me extra power points :D, its going to be several of my feats after 6th level.