(Non-traditional) Artificer Questions (plus build advice on skill-monkey build!)

[Piggy Knowles]

I'm dipping a couple of levels in Artificer in a skill-monkey build I've been working on, primarily for access to infusions (particularly Spell Storing Item).

Currently my effective Artificer level is 4 (two actual levels, plus advanced twice via Uncanny Trickster).

I'd really like to get the Artificer's CL up to 8, so I can store 4th-level spells with Spell Storing Item.

What ways are there to boost the Artificer's CL for purpose of infusions? I checked on the Simple Questions thread and had it confirmed that Practiced Spellcaster is a no-go. Are there any other ways?

Also, I've got six free levels in the build currently, and at later levels, I wouldn't mind progressing my infusions even further. However, I need to average 6 SP/level to meet my projected skill loadout. (The specific skills don't matter, thanks to Factotum + Able Learner). Are there any decent prestige classes with high skills that progress infusions?

Finally, as a caveat, yes, I understand that straight Artificer is a stronger option. Yes, I understand that with the Artificer's abilities, I will be able to duplicate many of the things I'm hoping to do with skills. But that's not what the character is going for. I'm also not really concerned with the Craft Reserve, Metamagic Spell Trigger, Retain Essence or any of the otherwise amazing Artificer class features. I'm mostly just trying to pick up infusions to increase my jack-of-all-trades nature, and to work alongside UMD/UPD to represent this character's mechanical affinity.

EDIT: Found one possible solution - Ardent Dilettante. Looking for general build advice now as well... see the latest post!

[Dusk Eclipse]

Does infusions qualify you for Unseen Seer? It could help you.

[Piggy Knowles]

Does infusions qualify you for Unseen Seer? It could help you.

Sadly, no - otherwise it would be perfect. But Unseen Seer specifies arcane spells, and only classes that don't specify arcane or divine can advance Artificer.

[Piggy Knowles]

Any other thoughts? There's got to be some way to boost my Artificer CL by 4 without killing my skills too much.

[Dusk Eclipse]

If all you want is infusions + skills have you considered Cyre Scout? It gets up to level 4 infusions and a good amount of skills IIRC.

[Piggy Knowles]

I have, but the base race is changeling, so no dragonmarks for me.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Racial Emulation (human)? Frankly I'm drawing blank.

[Answerer]

Ask your DM to be reasonable and allow a Practiced Artificer feat? I mean, that's really not a lot to ask. I'd... have some words with a DM who refused, I think.

[shadow_archmagi]

I'm not really sure why Practiced Spellcaster would be a no-go, either.

[Answerer]

It starts with "choose a spellcasting class" while the Artificer specifically says "The artificer is not a spellcaster."

Of course, despite this, Infusions are "just like spells and follow all the rules for spells." No reasonable DM should be denying the ability to apply Practiced Spellcaster to this.

[Ziegander]

Legacy Champion, from Weapons of Legacy. You'll need to take 5 or more levels in it, but, hey, then you have an excuse to make an Item of Legacy with a Spell-Storing function. Even better, you'll have all of the class features of an 8th level Artificer as well as the Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion stuff.

Of course, you can't even take your first level in Legacy Champion until you're 10th level. What level are you currently?

[Arcanist]

Ask your DM to be reasonable and allow a Practiced Artificer feat? I mean, that's really not a lot to ask. I'd... have some words with a DM who refused, I think.

I can see it now...

"DM doesn't allow me to take a clearly broken and overpowered mechanic and make it more overpowered! He's bad/wrong/evil!"

I can actually see a lot of reason for not allowing a Practiced Artificer feat (On the other hand, I can see a lot of reason for it). My personal favorite being the method for which Artificer manages to create items (against).

Regardless! My personal stance is that it never makes sense for a Wizard 16 to be denied his 9th level spells for taking Fighter 4 in his career. Did he suddenly stop studying magic when he became a Figher? Did the feeling of lifting a Spiked Chain decrease his magical capabilities? Personally, I just give my players built in Theurgy for 2 list (Just because a Bard decides to pick up a spellbook doesn't make him any less of a Bard :smallannoyed:).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Cyran Avenger has 4/5 casting which can be applied to Artificer and has some neat abilities (and full BAB too), relatively easy to enter and has at least 4 skill points per level. You could try that.

[Answerer]

I can see it now...

"DM doesn't allow me to take a clearly broken and overpowered mechanic and make it more overpowered! He's bad/wrong/evil!"
Ban the Artificer if it's a problem. Don't shaft someone who takes Artificer for wanting to do something odd with it.

As the OP notes, doing things this way is a self-nerf.

I have no problem with a DM who limits power in his games by banning things that are powerful. I have a problem with a DM who leaves powerful things in, but then makes it harder to use them by banning not-powerful things they might do.


Regardless! My personal stance is that it never makes sense for a Wizard 16 to be denied his 9th level spells for taking Fighter 4 in his career. Did he suddenly stop studying magic when he became a Figher? Did the feeling of lifting a Spiked Chain decrease his magical capabilities? Personally, I just give my players built in Theurgy for 2 list (Just because a Bard decides to pick up a spellbook doesn't make him any less of a Bard :smallannoyed:).
That's... interesting... I'd be interested in seeing a write-up of this. It sounds like a kind of semi-gestalt...

[Draz74]

Base Artificer has 4 skill points, so evidently that isn't enough.

I like the Uncanny Trickster suggestion. Three levels of that can get you 24 base skill points, plus 2 levels of progressing Artificer features. But it sounds like that might not be enough.

OK, it's not a tactic I normally endorse, but it is the simplest solution: just take more Artificer levels, then Dark Chaos Shuffle all your bonus Item Creation feats into Open Minded. With the crazy frontloading of bonus feats that Artificer gets (even more than the Fighter in the early levels), this should provide plenty of skill points.

[Piggy Knowles]

I've already got Uncanny Trickster. The build so far is changeling rogue 1/factotum 3/artificer 2/uncanny trickster 3/chameleon 2.

I would like to fit in three levels of Spymaster for the Magic Aura at will, which would leave me with six levels.

And yeah, Answerer is right - I am intentionally not taking advantage of everything the Artificer can do. I don't plan to do any crafting at all beyond some alchemy. This is set up to be a jack of all trades with an affinity for devices, who can pick up and use just about anything, or even juryrig it to do new things, but doesn't build anything himself. I want infusions to represent that juryrigging, and to give him something to do in combat besides sleight of hand and UMDing wands.

Of course, the majority of the infusions I want are first level, so just boosting my CL for them should do the trick.

I worked out all the skills I'd like in advance, including quite a few skill tricks, and I need around 90-100 for the last 9 levels. Three levels in Spymaster plus my Int gives me 36, so that means I need to average around 10/level (including my 18 base Int) for the remaining six levels.

If I can't get the DM to approve a Practiced Spellcaster for Artificer, then I'll just have to readjust my skill totals. I was just hoping there was some RAW way that I was overlooking.

[Draz74]

So does this mean you are indeed trying to avoid Dark Chaos Shuffle cheese?

[Piggy Knowles]

So does this mean you are indeed trying to avoid Dark Chaos Shuffle cheese?

Yeah, I think DCFS is a bit beyond the pale for this character. If nothing else, short of doing some crafting shenanigans that this character is trying to avoid, DCFS will be out of reach for my party for quite some time.

[Piggy Knowles]

OK, I think I may have gotten it figured out - Ardent Dilettante!

So, how can I re-shuffle things to fit in Ardent Dilettante? I have not yet taken my first level in Chameleon, so that's still open. Right now the first nine levels are set. I CAN do feat retraining, but only one feat per level (ie, when I go up to level 10 I can also retrain one older feat.) I can't change any of my existing class levels. Multiclassing penalties ARE enforced.

1. Changeling Rogue1- Able Learner
2. Artificer1- Scribe Scroll
3. Artificer2- Brew Potion, Darkstalker
4. Factotum1-
5. Factotum2-
6. Factotum3- Skill Focus (Bluff)
7. Uncanny Trickster1-
8. Uncanny Trickster2- Craft Wondrous Item
9. Uncanny Trickster3- Craft Homunculous, Persona Immersion

I can qualify for Ardent Dilettante right now, and it would fit the flavor of the character quite well. I might even drop Chameleon entirely, although I do still think I want to fit in those three levels of Spymaster. I've got a lot of magic items on this build, and if I'm impersonating someone, I'd rather not glow like a Christmas tree every time someone casts detect magic or arcane sight. (Also, arcane sight pretty thoroughly hoses any attempts to hide - even if I get access to mind blank, my items will still give me away.)

That being said, to get at least 5 levels in Ardent Dilettante (which would bring my artificer CL up to 8), I'll need to pick up either arcane or divine spells, and if I want to take 7+ levels in it, I'll need both arcane AND divine spells.

Here is my ideal skill load-out:

MAX:
Bluff, Diplomacy, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot, UMD (184 ranks total)

OTHER SKILL BENCHMARKS:
Autohypnosis 1 rank, balance 5 ranks, concentration 1 rank, craft (alchemy) 10 ranks, disable device 10 ranks, disguise 5 ranks, gather information 5 ranks, knowledge (arcana) 1 rank, knowledge (local) 5 ranks, knowledge (religion) 1 rank, open lock 5 ranks, search 18 ranks, sleight of hand 12 ranks, spellcraft 1 rank (80 ranks total)

SKILL TRICKS:
Assume Quirk, Clarity of Vision, Conceal Spellcasting, Listen to This, Mosquito's Bite, Nimble Charge, Second Impression, Social Recovery, Spot the Weak Point (12 ranks total)

...which comes out to a total of 276 skill ranks needed over the course of my career. I can adjust some of the skill benchmarks down a bit, though - dropping knowledge (local) and open locks to 1 rank brings me down to 268, and I could even lower search a little. (It's currently set up so that I can find DC 34 traps on a roll of 1 with Goggles of Minute Seeing and a masterwork item, but I can always lower it by 3 and just blow an inspiration point when necessary.) And UMD can be moved out of the "max" column as well, since the highest DC I could really want to hit with it is a DC 34, to decipher a 9th-level spell (and really, I can use spells to decipher, so the highest realistic DC I'd want is DC 30 for emulate alignment). So I can go down to 260 skill points needed pretty easily.

(I'll of course add in 8 ranks in perform if I go with 4+ levels in Ardent Dilettante.)