Choking up on a reach weapon?

[Eonir]

I remember reading something WOTC published that said you could choke up on a reach weapon, thus allowing you to use it in melee but losing your reach. I know about the short haft feat, that's not it. It was just a ruling/errata/dothisbecausewesaidso.

Anyone know what I am talking about?

[candycorn]

Nope. I'm only familiar with "Short Haft".

I suppose it wouldn't be terribly unbalanced to allow using the weapon in a way that it wasn't designed for. Call it an improvised weapon, lower the damage by a couple steps, and assign a -4 to hit, and that's balanced.

But I've never seen WotC make a statement endorsing such a thing.

[Laserlight]

I suppose it wouldn't be terribly unbalanced to allow using the weapon in a way that it wasn't designed for. Call it an improvised weapon, lower the damage by a couple steps, and assign a -4 to hit, and that's balanced.

Thrusting weapons, eg long spear, can't really be used close up. But a halbard or similar polearm certainly can be, and there's no real reason to penalize it for that. If you're in tight quarters--between decks in a ship, for instance--then you might have a problem using it.

edit: I'm aware that the rules' view of weapons is sometimes only distantly related to the way weapons really work.

[candycorn]

Thrusting weapons, eg long spear, can't really be used close up. But a halbard or similar polearm certainly can be, and there's no real reason to penalize it for that. If you're in tight quarters--between decks in a ship, for instance--then you might have a problem using it.

Halberds and other polearms are weighted for use at reach. Pull it short, and you'll suffer accuracy issues, at a minimum.

That said, it's not a huge issue allowing short haft as a free feat. It's not that powerful.

[Laserlight]

Halberds and other polearms are weighted for use at reach. Pull it short, and you'll suffer accuracy issues, at a minimum.

Having done SCA and similar fighting, with a polearm and against people who used polearms...that was not my experience. YMMV.

[toapat]

Halberds and other polearms are weighted for use at reach. Pull it short, and you'll suffer accuracy issues, at a minimum.

the issues would be using the weapon as a double weapon, and that is if the weapon is counterwieghted for extreme reach, not things like a halberd or glaive.

[terminusdrop321]

The Shorten Grip feat from dragon mag compendium allows you to treat reach weapons as non reach weapons for a -2 penalty to hit things

[JaronK]

Having done SCA and similar fighting, with a polearm and against people who used polearms...that was not my experience. YMMV.

I completely agree. Having used pole arms, they suffer no disadvantage at close range unless you're in cramped quarters where you can't spin them. I've had lots of sword wielders slip past the weapon to attack me, only to run into the butt of the spear. It's really quite effective.

But under D&D rules? No can do. You just need armor spikes.

JaronK

[candycorn]

I'm referring to historically correct pieces, which are generally weighted in the back to allow for easier extending. If you "choke up" in the manner that the OP is suggesting, it throws off the balance of the weapon, since you are farther forward, and off the center of balance for the weapon.

Non-period pieces will likely give different experiences, as will using the weapon in a different manner (i.e. rather than choking up, spinning the weapon).

But I find that comparing SCA to actual medieval fighting is... much like comparing NERF shooting to English Longbowmen. The basic principles of gravity and force remain, but typically, the weapons are not weighted, balanced, sharpened, or wielded the same.

I suppose this is a byproduct of the fact that the SCA doesn't strive to kill people, while that is precisely what medieval warriors were hoping for.

[Azoth]

Gotta say that even spears, depending on origin, can be wielded at point blank range effectively despite their inherent reach. I have on more than one occasion had a spear fighter over shoot a thrust and when I rush in get struck by the shaft to the side of my head. Other times I have had it pulled back faster than my lunge and I end up way too close to dodge the spear being thrust out again.

As far as changing up grips goes, am I the only one who thinks that a quarter staff should be useable as a reach weapon? Holding it by the midsection and swinging either end is only one way to wield it effectively. Gripping only one end and swinging the full length is another viable option for several attack combinations.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I'm sorry but Rattan weapons simply don't have the balance of real weapons. They can be decent training tools for fencing, but they also allow you to do manuevers that would be unfeasable with real weapons. In my experience the SCA doesn't have enough weaponmasters that discourage the use of manuevers that would be inneffective or impossible with real weapons. The shear, for lack of a better term, weildiness of many mock weapons could easily reduce the penalty from 4ish and reduced damage to 2ish and damage doesn't matter because a good looking weak hit is just as good or better than a strong blow to a joint in honor system/observer judged combat.

I think CandyCorn's short hefting without Short Heft penalties are about right.

@Azoth: I don't think anyone is saying you can't hit or even kill with a shorthefted weapon, it just takes a lot more luck and/or skill than doing so at the weapon's optimal distance.

I could see an effect for staff that gives +5ft reach for a single attack on your own turn. The attacks you're describing are effective but relatively slow and they are extending a weapon without a weighted hilt to the limits of it's reach.

[Ashtagon]

Having done SCA and similar fighting, with a polearm and against people who used polearms...that was not my experience. YMMV.

Were those real weapons, imitation weapons, or LARP weapons? In each case, the weighting is very different. It's also worth noting that "short haft" versions of pole arms historically did exist, which worked much the same as the full size weapons, but didn't have anywhere near as much reach, and presumably would do less damage because they couldn't count of gravity and momentum doing as much work for the wielder.

[JaronK]

Remember of course that in formation you can't spin a weapon to hit someone, which was why spinning wasn't taught that much. But that doesn't apply to one on one (or one on many) combat in open enough terrain.

And I've wielded appropriate weight spears. Unsurprisingly, they work pretty much like a staff... you can absolutely conk someone with the backside of the weapon. Obviously I didn't hit real people with the thing, but it sure looked painful...

JaronK

[Hand_of_Vecna]

And I've wielded appropriate weight spears. Unsurprisingly, they work pretty much like a staff... you can absolutely conk someone with the backside of the weapon. Obviously I didn't hit real people with the thing, but it sure looked painful...

JaronK

This assertion I have no problem with, one could certainly use a spear as a staff, though this would cost you a die type, change your damage type to blunt and negate magical properties of the spear in D&D. I could see this having no penalty at all for a spear with a simple and light head. But How effectively do you think you could do this with an 8ft longspear, remembering that you need to either strike a killing blow or create distance against someone with a shorter weapon who you've already failed to hit at optimal range who is going to be pressing the attack?

[JaronK]

Well, honestly, an 8ft spear is still pretty easy to whip around (the normal weapon I work with that's actually the right weight is about 7ft, so it's already in the ballpark). Body draws are probably the easiest way to do that, though you have to be in the right position for it... Chinese martial artists have been pulling that sort of move for years. When the shorter range weapon wielder charges in and gets past your spear tip, you swing the tip away from them, which sends the butt of your weapon in from the other side. It's actually quite hard for them to defend against (though a good shield can certainly help). Don't forget, I was talking about open ground, where you can simply back up when they charge in like that... they can run in faster than you can back up, but it gives you more time to land a hit. Most people don't realize how fast a pole arm attacks when you choke up on it. You can strike faster (and yet with serious power) than most larger swords. Certainly faster than most one handed bludgeoning weapons. Inside a spear's range is not a safe place to be.

And I guarantee that a spinning spear butt is going to mess up the opponent's attack. Maybe you hit their leg and drop them, maybe you hit their head, maybe you just hit their ribs... but they're not doing so well after that.

JaronK

[Thespianus]

As far as changing up grips goes, am I the only one who thinks that a quarter staff should be useable as a reach weapon? Holding it by the midsection and swinging either end is only one way to wield it effectively. Gripping only one end and swinging the full length is another viable option for several attack combinations.

for a 6 ft staff to reach over 5 extra feet effectively, you need special techniques.

An 8 ft Exotic Weapon staff would do it, but most reach weapons are in the 10 ft range in DnD.

[Jerthanis]

I think the only issue with the idea of being allowed to choke up on a reach weapon is that Reach is a very powerful weapon quality with only a tiny drawback. Eliminate that drawback, and it really has more in common with Magic Item qualities than its companions Disarm, Trip, Can Be Set Against A Charge, and so on. I dislike the idea of giving it penalties to hit because hit bonuses scale and a straight penalty that doesn't also scale becomes increasingly negligible over time.

However, it's easy to say its drawback won't come up often, and so it's a small disadvantage, but the severity of the drawback is pretty extreme. When backed into a corner, you can't make attacks at all. I think the route I'd go is in attacking the action economy with it... that you can 'ready' a polearm in either reach mode or out of reach mode, and it takes a Move action to swap between them, like you're drawing it. This keeps you from being able to get the advantage that makes the Spiked Chain the only Exotic weapon worth a feat while mitigating the idea of Reach as a potentially huge disadvantage. If you feel like it, you could make separate stats for the nonreach version of some polearms... dealing different damage, different critranges... you could actually make it pretty interesting.

[candycorn]

Eh... A "very powerful weapon quality with only a tiny drawback"...

... is still less impressive than the average 2nd level spell.

It'll be alright.

[Susano-wo]

the problem is making the field of effective weapons even more narrow. if you can attack close for no penalty, then as long as you are proficient,why the hell aren't you using a reach weapon?:smallfrown:

though an attack penalty is perfectly workable if the defenses are scaling in a similar fashion to the attacks, since the -2 is -10%, no matter what your attack bonus is

[Jerthanis]

Eh... A "very powerful weapon quality with only a tiny drawback"...

... is still less impressive than the average 2nd level spell.

It'll be alright.

Okay, so no one uses non-Reach weapons? I mean, if you make it the most powerful, you make it a non-choice.

I mean, okay, this isn't going to be the deciding factor exactly, but acknowledging it's the most powerful single weapon quality, and taking away the only, tiny, almost negligible disadvantage it comes with is just making the most powerful quality stronger for no real reason.

We're not comparing Glaives to 2nd level spells, we're comparing Glaives to Halberds (halberds aren't Reach for some reason).

[ericgrau]

Ah, knew I remembered reading this. I found it. It's from this article, all the way at the bottom, under "A Pair of Completely Unofficial Rules" / "Using Reach Weapons up Close":
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041102a
It suggests a -4 penalty to attack rolls and damage if you choke up on a weapon.

Guess how official this rule is?

[Zubrowka74]

Well, honestly, an 8ft spear is still pretty easy to whip around (the normal weapon I work with that's actually the right weight is about 7ft, so it's already in the ballpark). Body draws are probably the easiest way to do that, though you have to be in the right position for it... Chinese martial artists have been pulling that sort of move for years.

The taiji forms I practice use 7 to 8 feet staff and 8 to 9 feet spear. Both can be used with the same form, with some details on how to slightly choke the grip on overhead swings. Although the hand position is similar, il grabs at the butt and the first third of the staff, with the most of the stick in front. Is this enough to make it exotic to a medieval crowd ? I would thing so. I'd use a light penalty but since melee is already underpowered...

[Eonir]

Hey guys I'm back...oh my. Quite the discussion.



Ah, knew I remembered reading this. I found it. It's from this article, all the way at the bottom, under "A Pair of Completely Unofficial Rules" / "Using Reach Weapons up Close":
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041102a
It suggests a -4 penalty to attack rolls and damage if you choke up on a weapon.

Guess how official this rule is?

That is what I was looking for. I could probably get my DM to O.K. it. Thanks!