VoP Saint Cleric Build 3.5 for solo one-shot [Archive]

Shadowdagger213

2012-12-20, 01:00 AM

Hello Playgrounders,

Been reading the forums for about nine months now and I think this is the place for an Old-Schooler to get good again.

A few things about my group -

It's me, (The Vet), my Stepson (The Savant, good lord he ran his first game after his second SESSION with me and did a better job!), his buddy, and on occasion my Wife.

Talked my Son into running me through a solo adventure of his creation, he said yes, but only if I would do the same for him and his best friend who has never played.

Plot and setting to be revealed on both sides once character development is complete, so you really end up writing the story around the player's strengths.

In other words, the game stays relevant, challenging and most of all fun!

This being said, I really would like to see how ridiculous a 12HD Level 10 VoP Sainted Cleric of (Pelor, Pholtus, St. Cuthbert, simple weapon deities. I would be wielding Their Favored Weapons as primary, benefit or not. )

My Stepson is the (budding) power optimizer, I like to play for fun, flavor and THEN worry about how much damage I'm dishing out. I primarily play clerics anyway so damage is given! LOL

I would ask that you only post if you have an idea for this build AS STATED...

Human Cleric (Deity undecided), Vow of Poverty at 1st level, Saint Template at 10th level, total Hit Dice = 12th level total.

Books -

Basically I am NOT working with: any of the Tomes, Complete Champion (unless you can sell me on an idea), psionics, MIC, or Incarnum (not good enough with it yet)

Basics are PHB 1&2, Divine, Arcane, Mage, Adventurer (All "Completes" except Champion) BoED, and some others.

Not thinking of Sacred Fist, I am actually trying to do better than the one I just built because monks get no love on these boards, they used to be my favorite class...period.

Okay, Giants, can you help me make a cleric that'll make my Stepson do his homework for once and actually READ THE BOOKS to challenge me? (BTW...he's 25...)

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2012-12-20, 01:36 AM

You don't have to pick a specific deity, just an ideal. I'd get the Cold (FB, SC) and Winter (FB) domains, with the spontaneous domain casting ACF in PH2 for Cold. Get DMM: Persist for Divine Favor, Ice Axe, Elation, Mass Lesser Vigor, Divine Power, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, etc., assuming you can pile on Night Sticks (LM) Edit: VoP is bad. Use (Lesser Rod of Extended) Snowsight plus (Lesser Rod of Extended) Obscuring Snow, both in Frostburn. I'd also consider picking up DMM for either Fell Drain or Fell Frighten (LM), to use with Chill Metal, Ice Axe, etc. since the metamagic effect occurs each round that the spell does damage (but not multiple times to a single creature in one round, per volley attacks). The character could be considerably fat, with white hair and a long white beard, and wear a red suit and hat, and go around punishing those whose names are on his 'naughty list'.
You should get as many prestige class levels as possible, Divine Oracle 4 is a strong choice, and a dip into Paragnostic Apostle (CC) is extremely useful. You can get the feat prerequisite for Divine Oracle via the Frog God's Fane detailed in CS. If you do get Fell Drain/Frighten, be sure to pick up another domain to get Fire Shield (Fire, Sun, Retribution), which you can Persist with Fell Drain/Frighten.

toapat

2012-12-20, 01:37 AM

Im pretty sure VoP will ruin your character.

Not because of VoP being bad, but the straight reading is that you cant cast buffs on yourself.

On the other hand, basically, you want to go something along the lines of the standard Persist cleric outside of your bonus feats from VoP. Cloistered Cleric with Knowledge, Preparation, and a third domain. Even if he is willing to do the **** reading of VoP, your strength is being a Cleric, not being kindness incarnate.

Snowbluff

2012-12-20, 01:44 AM

Not because of VoP being bad, but the straight reading is that you cant cast buffs on yourself.

I'd very much like to know where this.

If you are speaking of the inability to have expensive components, Eschew Materials.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2012-12-20, 01:48 AM

Actually, per VoP: To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions: [does not list a holy symbol as an exception to the prohibition on material possessions].
You can't cast any Cleric spells at all without violating your vow.

toapat

2012-12-20, 01:57 AM

I'd very much like to know where this.

If you are speaking of the inability to have expensive components, Eschew Materials.

its a very to the letter, not to the intent, reading of the rules for VoP, in that it says you can not use magic items themselves without others acting on your behalf. (also, the first time i read the feat, im pretty sure one instance of the word Item was omitted by error.)

also, Eschew Materials as far as i know is basically a wasted feat until epic with VoP, because it is rendered entirely useless by a spell component pouch

Actually, per VoP: To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions: [does not list a holy symbol as an exception to the prohibition on material possessions].
You can't cast any Cleric spells at all without violating your vow.

They covered that in the Chuck thread. You actually have it tattoo'd on your body

Shadowdagger213

2012-12-20, 02:04 AM

I should have mentioned that the idea was to not multi or prestige class, and just build a cleric based on the saint template and the VoP line of feats. Topat, where are you getting that I can't cast buffs on myself? VoP I just can't have (many) material components. DM is letting me carve my own wooden symbol, magic vestments works on clothes, things like barkskin, shield of faith, and every thing that would not stack with what I have would still supersede it. Still making it better.

Biffoniacus, sorry dude, you're going to places I haven't seen yet. Don't own a lot of the books you may be dipping into, but I will admit that I forgot to mention that I was only going with Saint and VoP on this one... sorry.

All I really need for equipment on this guy will be a heavy mace or morningstar, spell component pouch, and the clothes on my back really!

Spuddles

2012-12-20, 02:57 AM

Morning star is a good weapon. I would go with quarterstaff so you can put brambles/spikes on it. Spikes is a third level spell from complete divine. It makes your weapon +2, gives it an additional point of damage per level (up to +10), and lasts an hour per level.

You can use your quarter staff as a two handed weapon, for good damage and power attack returns, or two weapon fight with it. TWF is pretty good, all you need is 13 dex and a feat, and you get an extra attack. You'll have plenty of sources of extra damage (righteous might, divine power, spikes, divine favor) that you won't be giving much up. Compare with power attack- a minus two gets you only 4 extra damage. You generally need a heavy feat investment in power attack to make it worthwhile, and you are going single classed cleric.

Divine metamagic: persistent spell, from complete divine and complete arcane respectively, is an awesome combo. Make those personal buffs that last rounds/level last 24 hours.

Domain choice should be made carefully. Spell is very useful, as it nets you mage armor (stacks with your vow, magic vestment) and anyspell. Use anyspell to prepare a wizard spell in that domain slot of a level or more lower. Wraithstrike (spell compendium) pairs very well with power attack. Alter self is also really terrific way of getting natural armor (troglodyte) flying (that stupid flying elf), climb speed (jungle races), and like a million other benefits. Just know your humanoids. Actually, wow, saint makes you an outsider. That gets you access to a lot. Dwarf ancestor, found in the link below, gets you +18 natural armor. Stupendous!

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060704a&page=3

Psyren

2012-12-20, 03:03 AM

@OP: Sacred Fist is actually pretty good. Yeah, pure monks get ragged on here, but the ones with some form of casting tend to be much better at achieving a monkish feel.

Actually, per VoP: To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions: [does not list a holy symbol as an exception to the prohibition on material possessions].
You can't cast any Cleric spells at all without violating your vow.

There are a couple of ways around this, even aside from the tattoo toapat mentioned. Worldly Focus is one (and sets you up nicely for Sovereign Speaker.) The other is starting every fight with the Summon Holy Symbol spell - the symbol you get explicitly has no value.

Shadowdagger213

2012-12-20, 03:23 AM

And Psyren reminds me why I should find access to Complete Champion (?)

Anybody like dndtools.eu? LOL

Summon Holy Symbol was the one I was looking for.

But as I am trying not to multi-class one this one, I just want a no nonsense clean build. My Stepson's challenge to me was to do something I've never done before. This would qualify...

Human Bonus: Sacred Vow
1st : Vow of Poverty
3rd : Able Learner
6th : ???
9th : ???
12th : ???

Wouldn't need Zen Archery, the spells have range. Intuitive Strike on the back end with the Exalted Feats. Find a few more ways to get more damage on NON-Evil enemies and this should be golden! Anyone think they can find me a pic of a Cleric in robes carrying a mace or Morningstar? War Domain isn't necessary, if I need Weapon Focus for anything, at this point I can just take it. This may just work...

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2012-12-20, 03:25 AM

Able Learner can only be taken at 1st level.

Gwendol

2012-12-20, 03:30 AM

Take a flaw for Able Learner. Shaky comes to mind.

You want divine metamagic (6th), and extend spell (3rd). Power attack at 9, and maybe cleave at 12, or perhaps Quicken spell.

Spuddles

2012-12-20, 03:30 AM

Weapon Focus on a cleric isn't worth it.

Shadowdagger213

2012-12-20, 03:51 AM

Able Learner can only be taken at 1st level.

Dang....

So scratch Able Learner... Nymph's Kiss and the bonus points/level from being human will make it a little easier.

Oh, stats... These were rolled, BTW...

18,17,16,16,15,14

Was gonna do something like this...

STR-14
DEX-16
CON-16
INT-15
WIS-18
CHA-17

Saint Template gives me +2 CON, +2 WIS, and +4 CHA

Level 12 gives me a total of 3 attribute points to spread around... Probably +1 CHA, +2 DEX (STR I can always do on my own)

AND...(drum roll...) VoP. At 12th level puts me at +4/+2 on 2 attributes of my choice that will scale up and I can pick another later while the first two scale up, etc... I chose WIS & CHA again for the finals.... (I really am doing this as we speak! LOL

STR - 14
DEX - 18
CON - 18
INT - 15
WIS - 24
CHA - 24

Crimeny....

Gwendol

2012-12-20, 03:58 AM

With that high CHA you should put it to good use: diplomacy, demoralizing, and turn undead (to fuel DMM). You could put some more points in CON, more HP never hurts.

What domains are you going for? Taking a level or more of cloistered cleric grants you the knowledge domain for free, which in effect gives you three domains.

Spuddles

2012-12-20, 04:02 AM

You only get two ability score points, as they are dependent on class levels, not effective character level.

Put them both in wisdom. The bonus spell will very much be worth.

Shadowdagger213

2012-12-20, 04:19 AM

How's this...?

+1 CHA, +1 INT

INT = 16
CHA = 18

Those changes to original spread, and math applies as posted:
STR-14
DEX-18
CON-18
INT-16
WIS-18
CHA-18

STR - 14
DEX - 18
CON - 18
INT - 16
WIS - 24
CHA - 24

Better?

NotScaryBats

2012-12-20, 04:28 AM

Why wouldn't you want 26 wisdom as a cleric? Skill points are cool, but buff your casting stat :0

Shadowdagger213

2012-12-20, 04:31 AM

Gwendol

2012-12-20, 04:32 AM

That high intelligence is not needed for a single class cleric: you are better served by having more CON/WIS/CHA. Unless you are open to theurging?

Shadowdagger213

2012-12-20, 04:37 AM

Why wouldn't you want 26 wisdom as a cleric? Skill points are cool, but buff your casting stat :0

Spellcraft

Gwendol

2012-12-20, 04:39 AM

Sun and Glory are very similar in terms of spells. Pick one and make Planning your second: it gives you extend spell "for free" and thus gives you the opportunity to pick another feat at three (MM Quicken perhaps).

Since you want to be better at fighting maybe Glory will fit you the best of the two.

Shadowdagger213

2012-12-20, 04:43 AM

That high intelligence is not needed for a single class cleric: you are better served by having more CON/WIS/CHA. Unless you are open to theurging?

Just sold myself on Knowledge Devotion (and Complete Champion too I guess!)

docnessuno

2012-12-20, 04:48 AM

Spellcraft

With an Human and 14/15 int you can afford to have up to 5 maxxed skills (and a bunch of extra ranks too, thanks to nymph's kiss from level 2 onwards), for a total of 74 skill points. That's usually more than enough

A 'standard' cleric package could look like:
Concentration: 13 ranks
Diplomacy: 13 ranks
Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks
Knowledge (history): 5 ranks
Knowledge (religion): 13 ranks
Knowledge (the planes) 5 ranks
Spellcraft: 10 ranks
Sense motive or Spot [cross class]: 5 ranks

Also, unless you are set on the saint template, i'd consider dropping it.
Don't get it wrong, it's a great template and one of the few worth it for a full caster, but considering this is a one-shot and the ECL is 12, it's the difference between being able the cast 5th and 6th level spells. And 6th is the magic level for clerics (like 3rd for sorcerer and wizards i guess).

Shadowdagger213

2012-12-20, 04:58 AM

My idea for the high Intelligence is to take Knowledge Devotion, and with it try to have the Knowledge skills to get the bonuses on all types of non evil creatures that I can, so between the Saint and VoP taking care of the Evil stuff, the Knowledge checks on Devotion, along with taking "Collector of Stories" for a skill trick (hence the extra skill points) should grant me a decent bonus on the non evil stuff I may come across... the higher the check the bigger the bonus on damage for stuff like golems, magical beasts, animals, oozes and things... (I hope) :smallbiggrin:

docnessuno

2012-12-20, 05:09 AM

Then i'd strongly suggest you to talke a look at the SRD for the cloistered cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm)

You will lose 11 HP, 2 BAB (divine power will fix it), but gain 52 (!!) skill points, bardic lore and the knowledge domain on top of your regular 2.

Shadowdagger213

2012-12-20, 05:26 AM

won't be hitting much with a bab of +5... divine power requires a divine focus... good thing my DM will let me have a wooden one...

BAB +5 (vs +7), hmmm...

So, a Cloistered VoP Sainted Cleric of Pelor with Glory, Sun AND Knowledge for domains, Knowledge Devotion, Collector of Stories, and like 127 skill points? I think I can go to bed now... this is my thread so I can just put it together from this!

Thanks to all, I'm goin' to bed!

Have a good night Playgrounders! (Keep going if you're up to it, still can't find a pic of a male cleric of Pelor in a Tabbard or robes, rather than armor. Google Searchers, Assemble!)

Shadowdagger213

2012-12-20, 05:28 AM

Wait..

does the Cloistered Cleric use Wisdom or Charisma for his Lore check?

Wisdom like the Cleric or Charisma like the Bard?

Spuddles

2012-12-20, 06:45 AM

Domains have not been decided on yet, but I have decided not to do Cloistered this time around. Toying with Glory and Sun, though I may just pick two. I kinda want some melee in this too, and Cloistered lowers your BAB if I'm not mistaken. DMM is a go I think, weapon will probably be a mace or Morningstar.

This is turning out much better than I thought, and I only had the idea this afternoon.

DMM persist divine power. And a wooden weapon will be your best, and easiest, way to get damage on a VoP cleric. Spikes such a good spell. It adds 2 to your hit and 14 to your damage, all day.

Spellcraft

13 ranks and 3 from int should be more than enough. Also check out the aging rules. -1 to all physical stats for +1 to all mental stats. Don't underestimate the value of spells, especially high level ones. You'll never have enough.

My idea for the high Intelligence is to take Knowledge Devotion, and with it try to have the Knowledge skills to get the bonuses on all types of non evil creatures that I can, so between the Saint and VoP taking care of the Evil stuff, the Knowledge checks on Devotion, along with taking "Collector of Stories" for a skill trick (hence the extra skill points) should grant me a decent bonus on the non evil stuff I may come across... the higher the check the bigger the bonus on damage for stuff like golems, magical beasts, animals, oozes and things... (I hope) :smallbiggrin:

One extra point in intelligence won't mean much. There are a bunch of low level spells that give you bonuses on knowledge and skill checks. Would you rather have 6 more skill points or +5 (or +10 if your deity has knowledge in portfolio) to all knowledge checks?

Wait..

does the Cloistered Cleric use Wisdom or Charisma for his Lore check?

Wisdom like the Cleric or Charisma like the Bard?

They use intelligence for the lore check, just like the bard ability. They still cast with wisdom.

Note that you can trade the knowledge domain for knowledge devotion, but in doing so you lose all knowledges except the one you pick from knowledge devotion as class skills.

Snowbluff

2012-12-20, 12:26 PM

its a very to the letter, not to the intent, reading of the rules for VoP, in that it says you can not use magic items themselves without others acting on your behalf. (also, the first time i read the feat, im pretty sure one instance of the word Item was omitted by error.)

also, Eschew Materials as far as i know is basically a wasted feat until epic with VoP, because it is rendered entirely useless by a spell component pouch

Citation needed. Page, paragraph, line/sentence.

Well, if you can't hold a holy symbol, why would you be able to have spell component pouch?

toapat

2012-12-20, 03:14 PM

Citation needed. Page, paragraph, line/sentence.

Well, if you can't hold a holy symbol, why would you be able to have spell component pouch?

You may carry and use a spell component pouch. You may not use any magic item of any sort, though you can benefit from magic items used on your behalf--you can drink a potion of cure serious wounds a friend gives you, receive a spell cast from a wand, scroll, or staff, or ride on your companion's ebony fly. You may not, however, "borrow" a cloak of resistance or any other magic item from a companion for even a single round, nor may you yourself cast a spell from a scroll, wand, or staff

Spell Component Pouches (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Spell_component_pouch) are RAW free sources of all magical Components with item value less then 1GP and which would not tear through a fannypack. In essence, the completely negate the need for Eschew Materials until epic, when you can upgrade it to Ignore Material Component, a feat required to cast any spell with a required Artifact material component

Deadline

2012-12-20, 03:37 PM

This being said, I really would like to see how ridiculous a 12HD Level 10 VoP Sainted Cleric of (Pelor, Pholtus, St. Cuthbert, simple weapon deities. I would be wielding Their Favored Weapons as primary, benefit or not. )

12HD Level 10? That isn't how Level Adjustment works.

I'm assuming you want to make a 10th-level Cleric with Vow of Poverty and the Saint Template, yes? So what you will end up with is an ECL (Effective Character Level) 12 character. ECL is used for determining appropriate challenges, and doling out experience awards. So an ECL 12 character would face challenges and receive rewards just as a normal 12th level character. However, that's pretty much where the similarities end. You'd still have 10 HD (Hit Dice, all from cleric), and be in all other respects a 10th level character. All effects and benefits that normally key off level should be looked at as keying off of Hit Dice. So you wouldn't have your 12th level feat or your third attribute point, because you don't have 12 Hit Dice yet. There's a member here on the boards with a guide to specifically how this works in his sig (I believe his name is Ur-Priest). I'd recommend giving it a read.

That said, Vow of Poverty actually makes your character less powerful, so if you are shooting for something powerful, you've really hobbled yourself right out of the gate.

Here's a few things to think about:

If you are looking to wade into melee (which I wouldn't, because you've gimped yourself on gear from VoP), be sure to cast Divine Power before doing so. This little gem means that your base attack bonus doesn't matter, because Divine Power sets it equal to your caster level.
Again, if you are dead set on going melee with VoP, look into the feats Divine Metamagic and Persist Spell. These two will let you keep a few vital buffs up for 24 hours at a time. You'll pretty much need to do this, or be busy spending the first 4-5 rounds of any combat simply casting buff spells so that you can be a capable combatant.
The suggestion of using a free wooden weapon and the Spikes spell is a good one, it will let you do passable damage.
As you are a caster, I'd suggest going that route and looking for spells to help you disable or destroy your enemies and leave melee to those who are actually suited for it.

If you are speaking of the inability to have expensive components, Eschew Materials.

Eschew Materials doesn't actually help you with expensive components. It helps with components that have a GP value of 1 or less. It's a mostly pointless feat all on its own.

Snowbluff

2012-12-20, 03:58 PM

Spell Component Pouches (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Spell_component_pouch) are RAW free sources of all magical Components with item value less then 1GP and which would not tear through a fannypack. In essence, the completely negate the need for Eschew Materials until epic, when you can upgrade it to Ignore Material Component, a feat required to cast any spell with a required Artifact material component

No, I want the source of "You can't use magic", not whether or not you can have a pouch. THanks for the tidbit, but I don't think VoP sucks nearly that bad, and I wanted you to substantiate your claim if possible. I think you rescinded it, so it doesn't matter now. Sorry for the confusion.

toapat

2012-12-20, 04:13 PM

No, I want the source of "You can't use magic", not whether or not you can have a pouch. THanks for the tidbit, but I don't think VoP sucks nearly that bad, and I wanted you to substantiate your claim if possible. I think you rescinded it, so it doesn't matter now. Sorry for the confusion.

No, You cant use Buffs is an extension of using magic items on yourself, as well as the fact that you cant, for instance, cast Magic Armor (Or whatever the equivalent of Magic sword is for armor, which i know is in the game), on yourself, as it auto invalidates VoP.

Mephit

2012-12-20, 04:36 PM

I don't really find anything on VoP that says you can't cast spells that you can cast inherently through class levels, provided material components, etc don't break the restrictions set by the feat.
Edit: In fact, it quite specifically says you can't cast spells from wands, scrolls or staffs and makes no mention of other methods of casting spells.

Don't get me wrong, it's your prerogative to interpret it that way, but I don't see how one could deduce with certainty it's RAW or RAI.

toapat

2012-12-20, 04:42 PM

Mephit

2012-12-20, 05:13 PM

toapat

2012-12-20, 05:19 PM

Those are only a small part of the cleric spells. The best buff spells for melee clerics don't affect equipment. Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment are nice, but the VoP features sort of make up for that. (literally, IIRC, they grant an AC and To-hit bonus that scales similarily to those spells)

Magic Vestment is an enhancement bonus though, where as the AC bonus from VoP is Sacred. Stack all you can, so long as the DM wont terminate them

as well as the fact that Holy Sword (Glory Domain) is outright better then the enhancement bonus you get from VoP

Theoboldi

2012-12-20, 05:22 PM

Magic Vestment is an enhancement bonus though, where as the AC bonus from VoP is Sacred. Stack all you can, so long as the DM wont terminate them

as well as the fact that Holy Sword (Glory Domain) is outright better then the enhancement bonus you get from VoP

Excuse me for asking, since I'm clearly missing something here, but how does casting Magic vestment or anything of the sort increase an item's price? It only gives the item in question a temporary enhancement bonus. It's stated nowhere that this enhances the price of the item automatically.

toapat

2012-12-20, 05:26 PM

Excuse me for asking, since I'm clearly missing something here, but how does casting Magic vestment or anything of the sort increase an item's price? It only gives the item in question a temporary enhancement bonus. It's stated nowhere that this enhances the price of the item automatically.

It temporarily becomes a magic item, and the game doesnt care if the magic item is permanent or temporary, only that it has an enhancement value.

and you also own the now worth several thousand gold temporarily item

Theoboldi

2012-12-20, 05:29 PM

It temporarily becomes a magic item, and the game doesnt care if the magic item is permanent or temporary, only that it has an enhancement value.

and you also own the now worth several thousand gold temporarily item

Aha. Still, I'd like to note that holy sword doesn't make your weapon magical. It only makes it act like a +5 holy sword, but never explitly gives it an enhancement bonus like magic weapon does.

Mephit

2012-12-20, 05:31 PM

Technically, magic items aren't really defined as such in the rules IIRC - anything that can be found under 'Magic Items' in sourcebooks obviously is one, it's not really clear about an object you cast Magic Vestment on, unless I'm forgetting something. But that's a largely semantical discussion, and I personally feel it goes against RAI for the vow.

I'm just happy we can agree that a VoP cleric can buff himself and that VoP is a suboptimal feat. :smallconfused:

toapat

2012-12-20, 05:49 PM

Aha. Still, I'd like to note that holy sword doesn't make your weapon magical. It only makes it act like a +5 holy sword, but never explitly gives it an enhancement bonus like magic weapon does.

no, i was just pointing out that there are better spells to the enhancement bonus of VoP

I'm just happy we can agree that a VoP cleric can buff himself and that VoP is a suboptimal feat. :smallconfused:

there are more things then that, and as i said, im pretty sure that was a specific omission error in VoP itself in a printing that led to it saying Magic instead of Magic Items.

Shadowdagger213

2012-12-20, 07:33 PM

Lots of awesome suggestions still coming in, I should have signed up for this site a long time ago! I like the idea of the Spikes spell, but I was reminded that with the Saint Template, I would only be a 10th lvl caster, not 12th. I thought I saw something that said that the Saint uses his full Hit Dice for casting, but that may have only been for his SLA's (there's a couple). Haven't carved all my feats in stone, but is there a way to get +2 Caster levels on all my spells and not just in a particular school? (Practiced Spellcaster maybe?)

Thanks to "Deadline" for clearing up the Level Adjustment part, but I had realized that right after I had posted that entry. 12th level character, 10th level caster. Got it.

And for the record, making a weapon temporarily magical does not negate the vow; just by taking the vow, ALL my weapons become magical and scale up as I level, including natural ones! So would I lose my hands if I punched someone in the face with my +2 (Good) non proficient magical fists? LOL

I could not have a masterwork, crafted, high value permanently enchanted weapon, no, I get that. If I was a Sacred Fist and someone threw a dagger in my chest, and I then yanked it out and threw it back at him, then YES, I would lose all benefits of that class for knowingly using a weapon, magical or not. But a spellcaster temporarily enchanting a weapon that will eventually lose that enchantment will not negate or break his vow. If I permanently enchant a weapon and SELL it for profit, then I would expect to lose all benefits from the vow.

Shadowdagger213

2012-12-20, 07:36 PM

And I also didn't want this to become a post about how much Vow of Poverty sucks....

I'm just trying to hash out an idea here...

Mephit

2012-12-20, 07:56 PM

And I also didn't want this to become a post about how much Vow of Poverty sucks....

I'm just trying to hash out an idea here...

When people talk about how X option in character building is bad, they usually intend to do so objectively from a optimized point of view. We don't mean to judge or tell people how to play, because how powerful your character is doesn't necessarily correlate to how much fun you have.

Practiced Spellcaster is almost always one of the best feats to take if you have HD without caster levels on them.

Snowbluff

2012-12-20, 07:59 PM

When people talk about how X option in character building is bad, they usually intend to do so objectively from a optimized point of view. We don't mean to judge or tell people how to play, because how powerful your character is doesn't necessarily correlate to how much fun you have.

Practiced Spellcaster is almost always one of the best feats to take if you have HD without caster levels on them.

Yeah, and I am defending an acceptable reading of the feat.

Practiced Manifester. It is the best feat.

ML for manifesters >>>>>>> CL for casters.

toapat

2012-12-20, 08:31 PM

And for the record, making a weapon temporarily magical does not negate the vow; just by taking the vow, ALL my weapons become magical and scale up as I level, including natural ones! So would I lose my hands if I punched someone in the face with my +2 (Good) non proficient magical fists? LOL

Actually, no, the +X and Good enhancement to all weapons you use is not an enchantment on the weapons.

as for build? There isnt a way to restore cleric levels to your HD like a certain Errata with the Psionic-Magic Transparency, or Dragonwrought Uberbold (Which should be your race anyway, at the least for the easy flight and immunity to aging penalties)

Spuddles

2012-12-21, 03:29 PM

toapat has... interesting rules interpretations. I hesitate to say that they're always wrong, but they're usually not very correct.

Selling items for profit doesn't violate your vow so long as you donate the proceeds to orphans or whatever. In fact, you are expected to take your share of loot and donate it. The vow of poverty is for being good, not for forsaking material stuff in and of itself.

Unfortunately, the vow doesn't even let you possess something long enough to sell it, which either means entrusting it to other party members or hiring porters.

VoP is a ridiculous feat. It encourages odd and foolish behavior. It should be [Axiomatic] not [Exalted], imo. You may wish to speak with your DM about fixing it. You shouldn't lose the benefits from the feat if you find a wand of remove disease or a decanter of endless water or murylonds spoon and carry them back to the village for helping those who are sick or hungry. But RAW, you do lose the feat.

Psyren

2012-12-21, 05:17 PM

Unfortunately, the vow doesn't even let you possess something long enough to sell it, which either means entrusting it to other party members or hiring porters.

VoP is a ridiculous feat. It encourages odd and foolish behavior. It should be [Axiomatic] not [Exalted], imo. You may wish to speak with your DM about fixing it. You shouldn't lose the benefits from the feat if you find a wand of remove disease or a decanter of endless water or murylonds spoon and carry them back to the village for helping those who are sick or hungry. But RAW, you do lose the feat.

You don't necessarily have to carry the item yourself. For instance, lesser planar ally:

You may ask the creature to perform one task in exchange for a payment from you. Tasks might range from the simple to the complex.

"Carry this item to {Village X} for me" would be a simple task.

As for the payment:

If the task is strongly aligned with the creature’s ethos, it may halve or even waive the payment.

If you're Exalted, anything you Planar Ally would obviously be good. And therefore, any Good outsider would be "strongly aligned" with you donating a magic item to a village that will alleviate their suffering.

So, from level 7 onward such a cleric would have no issues donating items.

toapat

2012-12-21, 05:24 PM

A tenser's Floating Disk research/feat training can hold you over till that point then.

Spuddles

2012-12-21, 05:45 PM

You don't necessarily have to carry the item yourself. For instance, lesser planar ally:

"Carry this item to {Village X} for me" would be a simple task.

As for the payment:

If you're Exalted, anything you Planar Ally would obviously be good. And therefore, any Good outsider would be "strongly aligned" with you donating a magic item to a village that will alleviate their suffering.

So, from level 7 onward such a cleric would have no issues donating items.

A tenser's Floating Disk research/feat training can hold you over till that point then.

Here are two other perfectly valid options.

And toapat I mean no disrespect, just that you post the most bizarre rules interpretations....

Kazyan

2012-12-21, 05:49 PM

Aha. Still, I'd like to note that holy sword doesn't make your weapon magical. It only makes it act like a +5 holy sword, but never explitly gives it an enhancement bonus like magic weapon does.

If it acts like a +5 Holy sword, it acts like a +5 Holy sword, with no picking and choosing over what it does and doesn't trigger. It acts like a +5 Holy sword even for the purposes of VoP, I would say.

NotScaryBats

2012-12-21, 05:55 PM

I would discuss such things with my DM before choosing VoP, because I know that I would never say "Oh, you cast a spell given to you by your god that enhances your ability to slay evil creatures (possibly also saving good creatures and saving the world). Well, your god can't believe you've invalidated your sacred pledge to him, and revokes his Exalted blessings from you."

Exalted comes from your god. Your spells come from your god. In any sane world, the god wouldn't create a catch 22 on one of its favored subjects.

(RAW may differ, but this is my RAI, so take with however many grains of whatever spice you desire)

Kazyan

2012-12-21, 06:07 PM

Theoboldi

2012-12-21, 06:09 PM

If it acts like a +5 Holy sword, it acts like a +5 Holy sword, with no picking and choosing over what it does and doesn't trigger. It acts like a +5 Holy sword even for the purposes of VoP, I would say.

I would say otherwise. It's not about cherrypicking, it's about the sword not being a magical weapon, but merely functioning as one. VoP doesn't care if your weapon functions like magic one. It is only lost if you actually possess a magic or masterwork weapon.

Edit: Hooray for RAW wars!

NotScaryBats

2012-12-21, 06:20 PM

lol, I always wonder when people parse the meaning of "extra" in a sentence whether there are folks who actually play with these theoretical interpretations.

I know I'm a very laid back player and dm, so it is a bit of culture shock when I come up against some hardcore RAW interps.

Kazyan

2012-12-21, 06:23 PM

These is no distinction between "is" and "isn't, but acts like it is" unless there are exceptions in the second case, and holy sword doesn't say there are limitations on its function as a +5 Holy weapon. You could split hairs about failing to pass DR if you take the opposite interpretation, which makes even less sense. (So it's probably more RAW than either of us.)

EDIT: Is should probably mention again that I subscribe to none of this pea-flicking. I just like flicking peas.

Theoboldi

2012-12-21, 06:30 PM

And I say there is. It's two differently worded things, and VoP explitly forbids you to own a weapon that is magical. It's like a soulknife's weapon. It for all effects and purposes is treated as having a specific enhancement bonus, and even bypasses DR like a real magic weapon. Still, it isn't an actual magic weapon, so it doesn't violate the vow.

I see your peas, and raise you mine.

Spuddles

2012-12-21, 06:56 PM

toapat

2012-12-21, 07:37 PM

Magic Item is a game term, just like large and huge don't merely mean "something big" or immediate action means "it happened pretty fast."

An item that is magical does not transform it into a Magic Item. At the very least, since Magic Weapons & Armor are of masterwork quality, and a VoP cleric will never have a MW item in his possession for more than a round, none of the equipment he has with magic cast on it can count as a Magic Item.

while the crafting rules require masterwork equipment to enchant (I will not use the more typical term, all it does is make it sound more like Viagra commercials), but the definition of magic items is not linked directly to an item being masterwork, only that it grants a magical bonus above and beyond the item's normal capacities.

Spuddles

2012-12-21, 08:00 PM

while the crafting rules require masterwork equipment to enchant (I will not use the more typical term, all it does is make it sound more like Viagra commercials), but the definition of magic items is not linked directly to an item being masterwork, only that it grants a magical bonus above and beyond the item's normal capacities.

"All magic armor is also masterwork armor, reducing armor check penalties by 1."
"All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons...."

toapat

2012-12-21, 08:07 PM

"All magic armor is also masterwork armor, reducing armor check penalties by 1."
"All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons...."

ok, let me restate that:

In the definition of Magic Item, It does not require that the item itself be masterwork, only the item crafting rules do. All items being masterwork is just a standard of that, but it isnt what we are talking about, which is that spells like Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Weapon both cause, because of RAW, the loss of VoP.

Spuddles

2012-12-21, 08:17 PM

ok, let me restate that:

In the definition of Magic Item, It does not require that the item itself be masterwork, only the item crafting rules do. All items being masterwork is just a standard of that, but it isnt what we are talking about, which is that spells like Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Weapon both cause, because of RAW, the loss of VoP.

The rules can't get more clear than "All magic armor is also masterwork armor."

toapat

2012-12-21, 09:29 PM

The rules can't get more clear than "All magic armor is also masterwork armor."

Except those are not the rules for defining what is Magic armor.

The rules that define what a magic item is, is that it simply does something above and beyond normal

Qwertystop

2012-12-21, 10:09 PM

Wait, isn't Saint that PrC that first requires that you die to get a 0th level in it, stops you from taking other classes til you finish it, and makes you die again when you complete it?

NotScaryBats

2012-12-21, 10:41 PM

I believe you are thinking of Risen Martyr.

Qwertystop

2012-12-22, 09:59 AM

I believe you are thinking of Risen Martyr.

Oh. Which one is Saint?

Kazyan

2012-12-22, 10:06 AM

Oh. Which one is Saint?

It's an LA+2 template with everything you could ever want out of a template, except that you need 3 exalted feats to qualify and basically have to be as good as it is psychologically possible to be.

Qwertystop

2012-12-22, 10:09 AM

It's an LA+2 template with everything you could ever want out of a template, except that you need 3 exalted feats to qualify and basically have to be as good as it is psychologically possible to be.

Oh.
Never mind, then.

Shadowdagger213

2012-12-25, 12:44 PM

Magic Item is a game term, just like large and huge don't merely mean "something big" or immediate action means "it happened pretty fast."

An item that is magical does not transform it into a Magic Item. At the very least, since Magic Weapons & Armor are of masterwork quality, and a VoP cleric will never have a MW item in his possession for more than a round, none of the equipment he has with magic cast on it can count as a Magic Item.

THAT is the exact statement I was waiting for. Thank you Spuddles for keeping this thread a discussion as I meant it to be, not a bitch session for people who hate the feat because it makes them think twice about gameplay decisions. I have read the feat description for VoP and the Rules of Poverty on Pg 29 I think in BoED, and I think I understand it well enough. I am really going to think twice before I post another open thread here again. (Love the comics thought, OOTS rocks!)