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Zombimode
2012-12-20, 08:05 AM
Since last session (on Saturday) I find myself constantly reflecting and contemplating what has happend that night - what went wrong, and what I could learn from it for the future - IF there is something to learn.

Rest assured, it was not my most sucessful session: when a player stops participating at a certain point with a frustrated expression on his/her face, one of the goals of the PnP session: that everyone has a good time, was not completely fullfilled.

Backround time!
The campaign and we as a group are very fresh. It was the thrid gaming session and we did not know eachother beforehand. We are using D&D 3.5 with some variant rules including E6, but this only matters in that most of my players are new to the system. I have DMed for 3.5 for a year now, but my DMing history is much longer. So I'm by no means new to the job.

To get the thing going the campaing has a very simple outline: Hilltrolls are gathering an army and are threatening/attacking other comunities, especially a dwarven settelement. Now, the prospect of war is always a tragedy, but the Dwarves could probably handle it. Unfortunately the dwarves never got a chance because the king's warhammer was stolen by another dwarf comunity. The hammer is a symbol of significant importance, both cultural and political. The theft has left the dwarves in disarray, they question the legitimacy of their ruler and if they even should figth against the trolls. In short they have lost their morale.
The giant eagle who stole the hammer was attacked on the flight by other airborne creatures and the hammer fall to the ground - in the depths of the infamous Forest of Doom! (Yes, it is my adaptation of the gamebook.)

The group set out the find and retrieve the hammer. They know that the hammer was found by two Goblins who discovered that it could be separated into two parts. Each took one part and left for different directions.
The adventure is structured as a randomized web of predefined encounters which should dynamically create the setting of the Forest. Within this setting the playes have to do some work to actually find both parts of the hammer, but it is thearetically possible to just stumble upon them by pure chance. This is how they got the first part.

After that they went to the dwarven settlement (I don't know exactly why but I don't argue on such matters - the players are free to do what they want). There they got caught a bit of guard on how hopeless the situation is: the dwarves really have lost all their will to fight. Basically the trolls raid the city of 1000+ dwarves in groups made up of 4-10 trolls - small enough to be easily defeated by an organized defense, but since their is no such thing they are strong enough to crush any opposition.

The, in my view, key event:

The group rested for some days in the town, because one of the PCs suffered from poison (-4 Str), was sucked dry by giant leech (-6 Con) AND suffered from the illness contracted from that leech (for another 8 str damage).
To spice things up and to make a point I improvised a raid of the trolls during that time: 5 trolls equiped with two ladders ran up the town walls, killed the sentry, overcame the wall with their ladders, 4 of the entered the town and broke into a house rampaging.
There were three players present:
A) His character is the one with the massive ability damage. He roleplayed his character since the start of the session feeling really bad, pretty much lying in bed the whole time - which is very in character. He would not fight the troll raid at this piont.
This leaves:
B) His character has some questionable values. In short he doesn't cara much for the dwarves besides their money and is something of a loner. Not my (as a DM) prefered type of character (I prefer cooperative types) its the players choice and he plays him consistently. He would not take large risk to stop this raid.
C) His character calls the dwarven town his home so he has quite the motivation to stop the trolls.

Players B and C went to find the raiding trolls. So, two PCs against 4 trolls. This was not intended as a straight combat encounter. I have dropped here and there that trolls are regared as exceptional fighters, so the PCs were reluctant to attack the trolls.
To give some intra-system perspective all PCs are currently level 3, whereas a typical Hilltroll is a (weak) CR 5 encounter; 3 humanoid hit dice + 3 levels of barbarian on a decent melee chasis (+4 Str, +4 Str, +2 natural armor, medium size + poweful build) to be precise. (Of course, the players don't have this detailed information).

For this reason I described how a single troll stands guard before a broken door to a house where, quite audible other trolls are rampaging and terrorizing the residents. Still, an isolated traget. The PCs decide not to attack.

To make the intimidation complete (and to do something) I let the trolls take a prisoner, a young female dwarf, take her to the plaza, shout some taunts concerning the cowardice of the dwarves and then execute her on the spot. The dwarves were too freigthned to do anything, but this was clear. The PCs did not intervene.
After that, the trolls expressed their contempt and just walked away. Only now player B decided to take the initiative and shot an arrow from behind cover against the trolls. Player C followed suit. While this attack did deal some damage it did not deter the trolls much. They prompted their unseens attackers (again) to come and fight them, but since this request was not answered by the PCs in any way, they just left.

To give some insight to my actions:
This sequence had two goals. First, the prior not really developed threat of the trolls a face and to show the dire situation of the dwarves. Second, to give the PC something to interact with. Of course it was not intended as a normal combat encounter. In fact it could just as well work a a narrated "cut scene" but with options for the characters to intervene. Negociation, bluffing, crafty ways of fighting... Or, espacially during the execution on the town square, simply an act of bravery and compassion (attack).

Now, I'm not disappointed by the lack of action of the PCs. It is completely fine. The point was made.
It is just that after that, player C did not really participated anymore and looked rather frustrated.

Some other information concerning player C: he is the son of player A, and, in relation to us other player, a bit young (about 16 - I'm 26 for that matter).
I think that he wants his character to be a hero, but maybe he wants it to be easy.
Also, his father has related to us others, that player C is in a phase where he wants to prove the world, or his father at least, that he is able. Ie. by having his character deal more damage then his fathers...
If this is true, it could creates its own problems.


To make it short: I don't really know what to do.

Did I made a mistake somewhere?
Should I make some changes to the adventure?
Or should I just proceed as planned and trusting that young people are flexible and that temporary frustrations are just as easily forgotten?

Should I make some (hidden) concessions for his chracters, ie. rebuilding the trolls so they don't have uncanny dodge since his build relies a bit on sneak attack for damage?

prufock
2012-12-20, 08:37 AM
Seems like part of the goal for the sequence was to frustrate the characters. They were not going to be able to defeat 5 trolls, though they might have been able to defeat the one guard. So it could be that the character frustration is affecting the player. He might realize, in hindsight, that he made a poor decision, and should have initiated something against the guard. There's no way to tell without asking him.

It might have been an IC thing, too. This kind of thing happens to me sometimes. I realize in hindsight that I've made a poor IC decision, and it has bad consequences, and I play it into my character. He'll be shocked or introverted or angry for the rest of the night, mostly with himself.

Kelb_Panthera
2012-12-20, 08:37 AM
My initial impression is that you handled it reasonably well.

There was an opportunity to strike in there, it's not your fault they didn't have the moxie to take that chance.

Am I correct in guessing that they didn't ask about the surrounding terrain? How about trying to rally the dwarves? If the kid wants to be a hero, he's should start thinking like one. He needs to either start looking for creative solutions or being a bit reckless and hoping luck will hold him together, because that's what heroes do.

As for arranging circumstances in favor of his character, only do this if you'd do it for any other player. That said, if the level 3 barbarian trolls are going to be a common thing, maybe trade-out uncanny dodge for something else. Not being able to reliably sneak-attack for another 4 levels is probably too far in the other direction.

I can understand why the scenario could be fustrating, but it didn't have to be. That lays as much on their feet as yours. By seperating one from the group you even hinted at the appropriate strategy for dealing with these mooks; divide and conquer. 1 encounter with 4 trolls was insurmountable, but 4 encounters with 1 troll each wouldn't have been, and you practically gave them the first one.

Driderman
2012-12-20, 09:08 AM
Sounds like a pretty classic case of a player who felt that he was out of options. Nothing worse than when you get the impression (wrongly or rightly) that all your choices are blocked by default. Especially if you're a sulky teenager :)

Raum
2012-12-20, 10:37 AM
To make it short: I don't really know what to do.

Did I made a mistake somewhere?
Should I make some changes to the adventure?
Or should I just proceed as planned and trusting that young people are flexible and that temporary frustrations are just as easily forgotten?

Should I make some (hidden) concessions for his chracters, ie. rebuilding the trolls so they don't have uncanny dodge since his build relies a bit on sneak attack for damage?To paraphrase, it sounds like you a) effectively took a potential leader out of the game; b) set up an unavoidable encounter which was also unwinnable by standard tactics; and c) brutally rubbed noses in their own ineffectiveness. (Not trying to be accusatory, just trying to look at it from a sensitive player's point of view.)

Some questions:
- Is this the first time they've 'had' to use creative tactics* instead of attacks? If so, I'd suggest easing them into using creativity rather than forcing it.
- How often have you put the PCs in a position where they may feel powerless?** Was this a first time for everyone or just for C? Or perhaps it's happened too often for C?
- Does C feel singled out? This is his home town you're showing his ineffectiveness to...

*Having learned the usefulness of 11' poles (10' isn't long enough!) in AD&D and 2nd ed, thinking around obstacles is something I'm used to. However, 3.5 always seemed to start with the question "do you have the feat for that?" - it pushed having the right build more than checking the ground in front of you. In other words, good builds superseded creativity.

**Minor anecdote - I've had a player tell me he'd rather build a new character than play one temporarily weakened. While it surprised me at the time, I learned from it - some players identify closely with their characters. When they do, putting the character in a bad spot becomes putting them in a bad spot instead of an opportunity to overcome adversity or instigate creativity. (BTW, this was an adult player with a college degree and a full time job.)

I'd suggest creating an opportunity for C to redeem himself in the town's eyes and get some revenge on the trolls. Then work on rewarding creative play until everyone is used to it.

That said, I don't think there was anything 'wrong' with what you set up. I think you simply ran into a player issue you weren't aware of previously. He's identifying with the character which is a good thing for role play...but also means you'll have to be careful with making the character look bad - he may take it personally.

Sipex
2012-12-20, 12:03 PM
If Player C wants to prove himself he may just need the chance to do it. Something more straightforward though, like have maybe a small band of dwarves determined to hold this city together (ie: not all the dwarves are demoralized, just most). They received news that Player C actually showed some moxie (so to speak) and actively seek the party out with proposals on a possible counter attack maybe?

Anxe
2012-12-20, 12:35 PM
While that sounds like a great way of setting up the villain to me, I think this is a case where you have to remember your duty as a GM. You're there so that everyone can have a fun time. While this is a specific issue with Player C, I think you can make some changes. Taking uncanny dodge away from the trolls sounds like a great idea for making them easier to kill. Perhaps making sneak attack damage bypass regeneration as well? Or give him a weapon that prevents all wounds made by it from regenerating? A fire sword? Something like that.

I believe what you did, while great in a story/cinematic sense, took away agency from your players. They feel powerless, like they can't do anything against the trolls. Now you have to give it back to them somehow. Maybe one of the dwarves sees that they stood up to the trolls and tells them a rumor he heard. The rumor concerns a magic weapon in the mountains beyond the forest that can cut straight through troll flesh. The rumor says that only the brave and the strong can discover the secret of the weapon. The dwarf is sure that the players are the group the rumor speaks of.

Alejandro
2012-12-20, 12:55 PM
You mostly GMed fine. It sounds more like you had an issue with a young, new player that has some out of game issues you may not have been aware of. More dialog with the father will help.

Zombimode
2012-12-20, 01:49 PM
Thank you all for your responses :-)

What I'm getting from you is that his behavior, while understandable, is more related to his inexperience with my more... lets say demanding DM style and a bit of general inexperience/teenager-ness. And that some catering might be in order, but only of the most modest type, like making it so (I'm the DM, I can make it so :smallamused: ) that he is presented with a chance of redeeming himself (and/or his character).


Regarding some specific points:



Am I correct in guessing that they didn't ask about the surrounding terrain? How about trying to rally the dwarves? If the kid wants to be a hero, he's should start thinking like one. He needs to either start looking for creative solutions or being a bit reckless and hoping luck will hold him together, because that's what heroes do.

Thats pretty much my stance. I hate it when the predicate "heroic" is being handed out like candy. I like heroic characters, or more precise: I like PCs acting heroically. In situations like that the emotional investment in the character and the awareness of the situation are at its peak. It's not something your are, because you wrote it on your character sheet. You have to act it out. And it isn't easy. Not being easy is pretty much the point.



Some questions:
- Is this the first time they've 'had' to use creative tactics* instead of attacks? If so, I'd suggest easing them into using creativity rather than forcing it.
- How often have you put the PCs in a position where they may feel powerless?** Was this a first time for everyone or just for C? Or perhaps it's happened too often for C?
- Does C feel singled out? This is his home town you're showing his ineffectiveness to...


As I said, we as a group are very new. Players A and B have quite some PnP experience, but not with me so I can't judge their expectations. Player C is relatively new to the hobby.
But in detail:

To 1) Well, they encountered some swarms of killer bees (using the stats for Wasp Swarm, Fiend Folio p. 172). Since the entire group is made up of rogues/warrior/ranger type characters they where almost helpless against this type of enemy. They mastered the situation by sacrificing one of their horses: they drove it towards the swarm and while the bees were "busy" with their prey the group took flight. So creative solutions have something of a precedence in this adventure.

To 2) "Powerless" is a very subjective assessment, but I think I know what you mean. But no, there wasn't a comparable situation, at least not in my view.

To 3) Maybe, but it wasn't my intention. If anything I wanted to show how dire the situation is to motivate him, while simultaneously characterizing the enemy.



If Player C wants to prove himself he may just need the chance to do it. Something more straightforward though, like have maybe a small band of dwarves determined to hold this city together (ie: not all the dwarves are demoralized, just most). They received news that Player C actually showed some moxie (so to speak) and actively seek the party out with proposals on a possible counter attack maybe?

This is not bad idea, and the groundwork for this is actually developed. But the problem is: as it stands, I can't do that because player C (or anybody else for that matter) has NOT shown this kind of bravery. If I would confront the PCs now with something like "Oh, mighty heroes! Your stood your ground against the Trolls so firm! Please lead us in our resistance!" I would completely devalue the situation.


While that sounds like a great way of setting up the villain to me, I think this is a case where you have to remember your duty as a GM. You're there so that everyone can have a fun time. While this is a specific issue with Player C, I think you can make some changes. Taking uncanny dodge away from the trolls sounds like a great idea for making them easier to kill. Perhaps making sneak attack damage bypass regeneration as well? Or give him a weapon that prevents all wounds made by it from regenerating? A fire sword? Something like that.

Oh, some confusion here, to my fault. What this setting calls a "troll" has pretty much nothing to do with D&D trolls. They are just some form of "large-but-not-quite-large-enough-to-be-Large"-type of relatively aggressive humanoids. No regeneration, no fire vulnerability. I had to create their mechanical identity and most of their cultural identity from the ground up. Here (http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100526194508/fightingfantasy/images/5/56/Hashak%27s_Trolls.JPG) is a schematic overview of the different troll species of the setting, if you're interested :smallwink:

Otherwise I'm not a fan of such specific concessions, or of concessions in general. In my view it cheapens players choice. Sure, sneak attack is an easy way to boost damage, but also not all that reliable. Ok, HE did not know this, because he is new, but then how is he going to learn if I'm mitigating the consequences.

Edit: But what I could do is having more variation in the troll ranks. Keeping their CR 5 slot, but having 4 or 5 types. So that not every troll warrior has uncanny dodge. Since trolls are mostly encountered in small groups its easy to individuate them more on a mechanical level.

What I'm thinking about is to let player C swap his choice for his Favored Enemy form animals (in the two session player C was present, no animals were encountered as enemies, so it did not come into play anyway) to humanoids (troll). Favored Enemy is mostly a flavor ability anyway so it does not really matter that trolls are likely to be less often encountered then animals. In the current situation it would be a mechanical boon, and it would actually really make sense for his character.

BlckDv
2012-12-20, 01:53 PM
To crib from Inception; you need catharsis.

I don't think you have a serious problem now; but you have the seed of one you can prevent from growing. As other folks have noted; it seems like Player C may feel powerless, deprived of meaningful choices.. which could be GREAT for RP; giving him a real empathic understanding of the dwarves they are fighting to save, but could also lead him to the same apathy that you feel was narratively expected for the dwarves.

What you need to do is follow up with the "snap out of it" moment; the event that turns the feelings of powerlessness around and gives him release and a sense of power and purpose.

Some of the other replies provide some good tools for this, or you can do something else, just be sure to do it soon.

An invitation to a secret resistance that saw hope when he fired some arrows, a rumor of an item that will give him better troll killing power (like a dagger of sneak attacking trolls so that bypassing Uncanny Dodge is SPECIAL for him, not a thing anyone can do, etc.), perhaps contact from a wealthy dwarf willing to bankroll some sweet gear for the team after seeing the first part of the hammer gave him hope, etc. The important thing is that the event gives HIM a chance to ACT, rather than just shows him someone being more effective than they were, that will only make it worse.

Driderman
2012-12-20, 02:05 PM
To crib from Inception; you need catharsis.

I don't think you have a serious problem now; but you have the seed of one you can prevent from growing. As other folks have noted; it seems like Player C may feel powerless, deprived of meaningful choices.. which could be GREAT for RP; giving him a real empathic understanding of the dwarves they are fighting to save, but could also lead him to the same apathy that you feel was narratively expected for the dwarves.

What you need to do is follow up with the "snap out of it" moment; the event that turns the feelings of powerlessness around and gives him release and a sense of power and purpose.

Some of the other replies provide some good tools for this, or you can do something else, just be sure to do it soon.

An invitation to a secret resistance that saw hope when he fired some arrows, a rumor of an item that will give him better troll killing power (like a dagger of sneak attacking trolls so that bypassing Uncanny Dodge is SPECIAL for him, not a thing anyone can do, etc.), perhaps contact from a wealthy dwarf willing to bankroll some sweet gear for the team after seeing the first part of the hammer gave him hope, etc. The important thing is that the event gives HIM a chance to ACT, rather than just shows him someone being more effective than they were, that will only make it worse.

This is so very much your solution, OP.

Zombimode
2012-12-20, 02:08 PM
An invitation to a secret resistance that saw hope when he fired some arrows, a rumor of an item that will give him better troll killing power (like a dagger of sneak attacking trolls so that bypassing Uncanny Dodge is SPECIAL for him, not a thing anyone can do, etc.), perhaps contact from a wealthy dwarf willing to bankroll some sweet gear for the team after seeing the first part of the hammer gave him hope, etc. The important thing is that the event gives HIM a chance to ACT, rather than just shows him someone being more effective than they were, that will only make it worse.

Yes, I agree. Something along that lines is in order. I have to think about that.
Sadly the resistance option is out of question, at least now. Not because it would be impossible to frame his actions as a spark of resistance (it is a stretch, but possible), but because the players saw it as a failure of bravery.

Sipex
2012-12-20, 02:36 PM
Then have the dwarves see it another way. They understand the players didn't do anything and understand because the foe seems so great, however, they have a dashing plan which will even the odds and let the players regain their honor at the same time.

It doesn't need to be "OH BRAVE HEROES!" just "We noticed you have a similar goal in mind and we think we might be able to help each other."

Jornophelanthas
2012-12-21, 06:56 PM
Then have the dwarves see it another way.

This. Perhaps seeing someone willing to (at least halfheartedly) stand up to the trolls is enough. For example:

- There is an underground movement of dwarves who are somewhat less demoralized than the rest, and they want to recruit anyone, anyone who is willing to raise arms against the trolls into their ranks. This would not put the players in high esteem within the resistance, but they will be deemed worthy of being scouts or grunts. Until they actually start proving themselves with some minor succes (for example by actually defeating a small group of trolls by singling them out), at which point they could rise in the ranks. Their first major success (e.g. single-handedly killing one of the troll leaders) would then elevate them to positions of influence among this group of dwarves.

Or:
- Some dwarves dream of the time when they could be proud of their nation, and they even have a plan/prophecy that would improve their lot. Except that they don't have anyone willing or able to actually do the deeds. (For example, those that tried before have never returned or died horribly.) At this stage, they are willing to send anyone, anyone after whatever it is they think will help, and the PCs just qualified.

In other words, make the NPCs' reactions suitable for the players' actual actions, but DO give the players a chance to redeem themselves in their own eyes.