Wall of Stone Question

[Karoht]

Can a Wall of Stone contain a Vampire who has been forced into their Mist Form?

One of my players continues to insist that Wall of Stone has cracks in it big enough for Mist Form or other such spells to allow one to slip out. The spell description states that it "creates a wall of rock that merges into adjoining rock surfaces" and makes no other mention of it having any other openings.

Thoughts?

[Story]

It sounds like solid rock to me.

[SilverLeaf167]

Why exactly are the players arguing about this? Is it a matter of principle, is one of them playing a vampire and hates being countered or is there some reason they would WANT to let an enemy vampire escape?

I don't think it really has any cracks, but the situation may still affect what ruling you should make.

[Flickerdart]

There are no indications that the wall comes with cracks, but a few solid thumps with a vampire's augmented strength should put some in it, provided that it was created while the vampire was still corporeal, and non-stone surfaces would probably have holes between them and the wall.

[Karoht]

Background:
Party member who keeps insisting this first off is a major vampire fan. But let's not hold that against him.
Said party member has been turned into a Vampire, though so far that has yet to matter.
Party was fighting a vampire, managed to 'kill it' so it went mist form as per the ability, automatically as per the description. I cast Wall of Stone to trap the mist form (and chose to do so with another willing party member to monitor the bad guy), and this is when vampire party member decides to insist that the mist can find it's way out of anything with a crack in it, with the arguement that all stone walls will have cracks in them somewhere.
Arguement insued, DM ruled that the Wall of Stone would successfully trap the enemy vampire, thus preventing it from reaching it's coffin/grave dirt, thus killing the enemy vampire.

Still, annoying when the party member has said this about Wall of Stone in two separate instances, so I thought I would crowd-source some opinions and expertise on the matter.

[Slipperychicken]

It is possible, but difficult, to trap mobile opponents within or under a wall of stone, provided the wall is shaped so it can hold the creatures. Creatures can avoid entrapment with successful Reflex saves.

Give the Vampire a Reflex save to avoid entrapment, like you're supposed to. If he makes it, he escapes. If he doesn't, he's stuck.


The Wall is made freshly, from magic, and makes no mention of cracks. It should be treated as a newly-fashioned wall of good craftsmanship (i.e. no cracks, no holes). Gases and vapors don't go through solid surfaces. Even glass and plastic can contain gases.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Party was fighting a vampire, managed to 'kill it' so it went mist form as per the ability, automatically as per the description. I cast Wall of Stone to trap the mist form (and chose to do so with another willing party member to monitor the bad guy), and this is when vampire party member decides to insist that the mist can find it's way out of anything with a crack in it, with the arguement that all stone walls will have cracks in them somewhere.False. Any given wall might have microscopic cracks and whatnot, but they certainly don't lead all the way through. Also, this wall was just built and it was done by magic. If the wall merges into surrounding rock surfaces at its edges, why would you assume it leaves gaps in its own surface?

[Chilingsworth]

Umm, maybe I'm being stupid, but couldn't the mist-form vampire just float over the wall?

[Deepbluediver]

IMO, since this is a freshly created magical wall, it is solid stone without cracks.

Now, because that answer is straightforward and boring, here's another one.
Virtually all materials are porous to some degree, and liquids or gasses may seep through over time. In order to calculate the rate at which the vampire can sink through the wall, we need to know what kind of stone this is, how much pressure the vampire can exert, and what the size of a molecule of vampire gas is. :smalltongue:

[Hirax]

False. Any given wall might have microscopic cracks and whatnot, but they certainly don't lead all the way through. Also, this wall was just built and it was done by magic. If the wall merges into surrounding rock surfaces at its edges, why would you assume it leaves gaps in its own surface?

This. The argument that the wall starts with a crack big enough for a gas to slip through is utterly stupid.


Umm, maybe I'm being stupid, but couldn't the mist-form vampire just float over the wall?

Wall of stone doesn't require that you conjure the wall into a flat plane, it can be shaped as the caster desires within the limit of the spell description.

[Deophaun]

Umm, maybe I'm being stupid, but couldn't the mist-form vampire just float over the wall?
Assuming the vampire wasn't trapped by it, or the player didn't choose to shape it in the form of a hemisphere and instead opted for a simple arc, sure.

Virtually all materials are porous to some degree, and liquids or gasses may seep through over time. In order to calculate the rate at which the vampire can sink through the wall, we need to know what kind of stone this is, how much pressure the vampire can exert, and what the size of a molecule of vampire gas is. :smalltongue:
So, how many catgirls should I lead to the gallows for this?

[ericgrau]

Umm, maybe I'm being stupid, but couldn't the mist-form vampire just float over the wall?

Don't forget to make it as high as the ceiling lol. Or a hemisphere works too with more surface area. But ideally you make the whole thing at least 5 feet away from the vampire so he doesn't get a save, and that's easier if you use a shape with as little surface area required as possible so it falls within the spell's limits. Typically you do that by using as many other existing surfaces as possible.

I've seen rulings where vampires squeeze through cracks in a cave, but actually it's more sensible to consider both the wall and all surrounding stone air tight. While theoretically a few molecules might get through after a long period of time, for all practical purposes the gas is stuck. For example you would suffocate in that same enclosure. Killing catgirls is surprisingly difficult to do, because it usually involves plans that don't actually work. Even with cracks, the cracks almost always end at soil or more stone. And it's annoying to the caster to have every smart plan cheated away, like he's being told "Just hack and slash like a bunch of good PCs, you'll take him down when my railroad says so."

As mentioned the vampire has a reflex save if he's within 5 feet of the wall and in his corporeal form he can easily break the wall. The wall's stats are right in the spell description and I suggest that the caster include such details in whatever notes line he has next to his spells.

[Karoht]

@Slippery
Vampire failed the Reflex save. Legit trapped.
The note of the quality level when created might be the datapoint I need to convince the player. Thanks!

@Lord
My thoughts exactly. It seemed to be a remarkably odd assumption to make. I assure you it was frustrating to no end at the time.

@Chill
I put him in a 5 high by 10 long by 5 wide box, sealed to the solid stone floor. I provided the sides, the roof, the front, and the back. I still had another 4x5ft walls available. I could have made it 10x10x10, or 15x15x15 had I used the adjacent stone walls and only provided the front, the back, and the roof.


And again, DM ruled in my favor, but not before the player was surprisingly upset by this, for reasons I'm still unsure of.

[Flickerdart]

IMO, since this is a freshly created magical wall, it is solid stone without cracks.

Now, because that answer is straightforward and boring, here's another one.
Virtually all materials are porous to some degree, and liquids or gasses may seep through over time. In order to calculate the rate at which the vampire can sink through the wall, we need to know what kind of stone this is, how much pressure the vampire can exert, and what the size of a molecule of vampire gas is. :smalltongue:
Well, given that the spell gaseous form specifies that the creature is "misty", it's probably our best bet that vampire gas has the same consistency as mist. Since the material component for a wall of stone demands granite, we can safely assume that the resultant wall is granite as well. At minimum CL of 9, the wall is, again at a minimum, 1 inch thick. So how long does mist take to get through granite?

A clever vampire will, of course, just re-assign the stone tomb as its new coffin and rest there quite comfortably.

[Deepbluediver]

Let's see how high I can push the "ridiculous" quotient.


Well, given that the spell gaseous form specifies that the creature is "misty", it's probably our best bet that vampire gas has the same consistency as mist. Since the material component for a wall of stone demands granite, we can safely assume that the resultant wall is granite as well. At minimum CL of 9, the wall is, again at a minimum, 1 inch thick. So how long does mist take to get through granite?

Hmm, let me think. Assuming the vampire has retained it's mass (via the law of conversation of matter and energy). You now have roughly 100 kg of gaseous vampire in a container of not more than 10 cubic meters (again, roughly) so the pressure has likely crushed to death anyone trapped inside with him.

If they manage to survive that, they will rapidly asphixiate since we've already established gas cannot easily cross the stone barrier. If they are lucky, the will die from carbon monoxide poisoning (or maybe dioxide, I can never keep them straight) before they choke to death on the vampire-mist rapidly filling their lungs.

If the vampire manages to keep his gaseous form compressed so that pressure does not increase (or maybe shunts his mass elsewhere, but that would totally violate all rational laws of physics. Jeez, it'd be like...magic or something....) and we assume that "mist" means water vapor, the particles are fairly large and do not spread quickly through a solid crystaline material like granite.
In terms of game time, the party will almost certainly get bored and wander off long before any significant portion of the vampire manages to diffuse through the wall of stone. Since the vampire is immortal, he can afford to take the next several years to let himself leak slowly out of his temporary imprisonment. :smalltongue:


A clever vampire will, of course, just re-assign the stone tomb as its new coffin and rest there quite comfortably.

Or that.



Yes, I recognize the "science" here is atrocious even before we get into D&D logic; its all for a little fun.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

@Lord
My thoughts exactly. It seemed to be a remarkably odd assumption to make. I assure you it was frustrating to no end at the time.You could always give him the old [citation needed]. If he insists that something unlikely is possibly, insist that he bear the burden of proof. If he can't give you a single solid source for his assertion, let it drop and play it as the DM ruled it.

[ericgrau]

The vampire doesn't get off Scott free. You can destroy a vampire this way if you bring him to 0 hp and force him into gaseous form that way, then trap him. Since he doesn't get back to his coffin in time he's done for... barring a new coffin lol. Though that's assuming that the coffin may be changed at all, and how much the DM will stretch the definition of "coffin". Something tells me that isn't RAI, and RAW says little or nothing on the matter.

If he is above 0 hp he can go corporeal and either destroy the wall or wait for the party to leave and then destroy the wall.

[rweird]

Why does the vampire need to be within 5 ft to be allowed a reflex save to avoid entrapment, the spell gives no limit on range, just for the spell to trap him?

[hymer]

If he's farther away, he won't have time to get to the safe side.

[rweird]

So no actually ruling besides common sense?

[hymer]

Actually, never mind me. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't even know what I'm talking about.

[Deepbluediver]

So no actually ruling besides common sense?

That's one of those inumerable points in the rules where you could contrive some strange situation to torture the spell into a way it was never meant to be used, that defies all logic. And the only solution is to use common sense and completely give up your last bit of sanity.

For example, Character A is stuck at the bottom of a 100 ft. deep well. Character B casts Wall of Stone to seal Character A inside. Since this would "trap" Character A, he gets a Reflex save and if he succeeds, is apparently teleported out of the well.
:smallyuk:

Personally, if I where DMing and no one could cite a "5 foot" rule in the official books I'd probaly make the decision that he was within half his movement distance he should get a reflex save, but it sounds like the vampire already tried that and failed.

[Flickerdart]

The spell doesn't say anything about moving out of the area, and succeeding on a Reflex save against a fireball doesn't move you out of the area of effect. All that the spell says is that you, in some way, avoid entrapment. Maybe the wall doesn't form correctly, leaving a gap or something.

[Deophaun]

The spell doesn't say anything about moving out of the area, and succeeding on a Reflex save against a fireball doesn't move you out of the area of effect. All that the spell says is that you, in some way, avoid entrapment. Maybe the wall doesn't form correctly, leaving a gap or something.
Except that would mean that it just takes one creature to make the reflex save for everyone to escape capture, which is not what the spell says.

It's just a very poorly thought out portion of the spell, and the 5' house rule is a good, simple fix.

[rweird]

I think the rule is supposed to be for if you literally coat the person in stone, not otherwise, the RAW, who knows, I probably wouldn't rule that way either, though I was curious if I discovered another screw up in RAW.

[herrhauptmann]

I think the rule is supposed to be for if you literally coat the person in stone, not otherwise, the RAW, who knows, I probably wouldn't rule that way either, though I was curious if I discovered another screw up in RAW.

Or put up 20ft of wall around their 5ft square. (40ft of wall and 10ftx10ft square for giants) That's how I always interepreted the reflex saves for the walls at least.
Also, were I the DM, I wouldn't let my monster vampire 'declare a new coffin' just like that. The entry mentions being bound to its coffin and gravesoil. In the ravenloft novels, Strahd went and hid coffins with bits of his gravedirt around the country, so he can always hide if forced to run. Pretty sure Stoker had Dracula doing the same, crates of gravesoil being moved across London and stuff.
It sounds like the player is making these arguments partly so he can make use of the same rulings when they come up again. Another reason to not 'declare a new coffin.' If so, suddenly every hole or basement will become his coffin when he needs it.

Also, I don't understand how a player has gained the vampire template, without it immediately mattering. fast heal 5? Dominate SLA? Significant stat boosts? Up to 5 bonus feats?

[toapat]

Also, were I the DM, I wouldn't let my monster vampire 'declare a new coffin' just like that. The entry mentions being bound to its coffin and gravesoil. In the ravenloft novels, Strahd went and hid coffins with bits of his gravedirt around the country, so he can always hide if forced to run. Pretty sure Stoker had Dracula doing the same, crates of gravesoil being moved across London and stuff.

Yes, vampires need their grave soil. If they were buried.

Vampires in DnD dont need to be, thus alloing them to declare a new coffin whenever.

Of course, if that player in question wants to use the ruling afterwards to his advantage, Make sure you hire a permanent cleric to maintain a Concecration spell on the soil to bury him in. A vampire cant rise if their is a steak through their chest.

[herrhauptmann]

Yes, vampires need their grave soil. If they were buried.

Vampires in DnD dont need to be, thus alloing them to declare a new coffin whenever.

Of course, if that player in question wants to use the ruling afterwards to his advantage, Make sure you hire a permanent cleric to maintain a Concecration spell on the soil to bury him in. A vampire cant rise if their is a steak through their chest.

How about a brisket through their chest?:smallwink:

[toapat]

How about a brisket through their chest?:smallwink:

Or a nice Sirloin

yes, i realize my mistake now

[ericgrau]

Weird I couldn't find the no save wall of stone rule in the SRD. I was pretty sure I saw it in the player's handbook. Wall of ice still says "adjacent" in the SRD. I could try to dig it up though I don't remember if I've always had the same PHB. Or maybe I read the wrong wall spell from the start. The 3.0 SRD says the same thing. EDIT: Not in my PHB either. Nevermind, carry on.

I have to wonder though, what happens if you merely close off the end of a 100 foot hallway and a creature is at the other end? Where do you draw the line on distance?

It is ambiguous whether the creature appears on the other side of the wall or blocks its creation. It says "Creatures can avoid entrapment with successful Reflex saves." Either those who fail are stuck inside and those that pass are outside, or if any one of them passes all of them are free.

[umbergod]

Or a nice Sirloin

yes, i realize my mistake now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wgbgx8FiCg

did someone say Sir Loin?

[Traab]

The way I see it, the reflex save is like an indiana jones move. The stone door is closing and he rolls underneath it just in time to avoid being trapped. Same thing here. Making the reflex save means you managed to jump out the opening before it could close. As for reasonable distance, hell if I know.

[Slipperychicken]

The way I see it, the reflex save is like an indiana jones move. The stone door is closing and he rolls underneath it just in time to avoid being trapped. Same thing here. Making the reflex save means you managed to jump out the opening before it could close. As for reasonable distance, hell if I know.

At least one earlier edition did have Rogues leaping 10+ feet out of turn to jump out of Fireballs' blast radii. Although they scrapped that for just reducing/eliminating the damage, I could see bringing it back for something like this.

[Deophaun]

It is ambiguous whether the creature appears on the other side of the wall or blocks its creation. It says "Creatures can avoid entrapment with successful Reflex saves." Either those who fail are stuck inside and those that pass are outside, or if any one of them passes all of them are free.
Ahem. It says "Creatures can avoid entrapment with successful Reflex saves." So, one save frees them all is ruled out.

[ericgrau]

Probably, and then the creation of the wall cannot be disrupted since that would free all creatures with 1 save. Then creatures must appear on the other side of the wall.

The other less likely way to interpret it would be to say it means "creatures" in the general sense. As in "creatures may avoid entrapment by walls of stone".

Though I think they appear on the other side of the wall. This leads to the questions of how far away can they really get a save and how far can they move? Even at high caster level the spell can only enclose a 10x10 area to 10 feet high, so that may have been the intent when it says "within"; i.e., there isn't far to move anyway since you're always next to the wall. Other times you aren't "within", you're on one side of the wall so who knows how to rule it.

[Traab]

I just had this mental image of a critical fumble on the reflex save. You get cut in half by the wall of stone as it finishes growing while you are in mid jump.

[Flickerdart]

I just had this mental image of a critical fumble on the reflex save. You get cut in half by the wall of stone as it finishes growing while you are in mid jump.
The wall explicitly cannot be conjured intersecting with another creature or object, so that's the one scenario guaranteed not to happen.

[OracleofWuffing]

Light a candle, hold a reasonably-sized rock in front of the player's mouth, and ask him to blow out the candle. The vampire escapes when the candle is blown out.

[DarkestKnight]

I think this Vampire is well and truly stuck. however one thing has occurred to me, can you choose what kind of stone/rock is created? Can you create a massive exfoliate-r of a wall by choosing pumice as the type? If the argument descends into nitpicking this may be important.

[TuggyNE]

Light a candle, hold a reasonably-sized rock in front of the player's mouth, and ask him to blow out the candle. The vampire escapes when the candle is blown out.

Uh, this may have unintended consequences, since the stream of higher-speed, lower-pressure air will tend to flow around the rock and reform (with additional turbulence from non-laminar flow) on the other side, which means that a roundish rock of maybe up to twice hand-size is likely to allow the candle to be blown out. A slab held perpendicular, however, is sufficient, but probably too impractical to hold.

[Slipperychicken]

Light a candle, hold a jawbreaker-sized rock inside the player's mouth, and ask him to blow out the candle. The vampire escapes when the candle is blown out.

FTFY. ......

[Deepbluediver]

I think this Vampire is well and truly stuck. however one thing has occurred to me, can you choose what kind of stone/rock is created? Can you create a massive exfoliate-r of a wall by choosing pumice as the type? If the argument descends into nitpicking this may be important.

The spell doesn't say one way or the other, but as an earlier poster pointed out the Arcane Material Component is a chunk of granite, so I assumed that this is what the wall was composed of. Another ruling might be that the wall is made of the same material as the surrounding rock it's attached too, but the spell is Conjuration not Transmutation so I'm not sure that one will fly.

Basically, if you want to make the "stone" out of something special, you're going to need to houserule it one way or the other. Personally, I would have no objection to ruling that the wall is composed of whatever type of stone you use for your material component, provided the players don't try to pull funny shennanigans and make a wall of diamond or something.

[Zanthy1]

I think the rule is supposed to be for if you literally coat the person in stone

I agree with this, if you attempt to entangle the person in stone, they would get a reflex save, otherwise you are manipulating the environment. However, if you tried to coat the person in stone, would that be an insta-kill?

My thought process:

Suffocation first. In the James Bond movie with Goldfinger, this chick who betrayed him to do dirty shenanigans with Bond ends up covered in golden paint, which suffocates her skin and she did. Not entirely sure on the exact science behind that, but a stone wall covering your skin would no doubt also cover your orifices, blocking the airways.

The next would be starvation. If you are trapped in stone, you will probs not be able to eat or drink unless saved. Generally that kills ya, but not always.

The third would be an explosion of the bladder. Can't go potty, where does it go?

Coating someone directly in stone seems a lot like a "flesh to stone spell" except instead of turing their skin into stone, you give them a stone exoskeleton.

Which leads me to my next thought, what if you did that but didn't cover up the head, giving an ally solid stone armor? The check penalty would e atrocious, as would the max dex bonus. However, what do you think the bonus to AC would be?

[Deepbluediver]

However, if you tried to coat the person in stone, would that be an insta-kill? The spell does have the qualifier that you can form the stone into almost any shape. I think for something called "Wall of Stone" it was RAI you can't manipulate it to closely coat some one.



Which leads me to my next thought, what if you did that but didn't cover up the head, giving an ally solid stone armor? The check penalty would e atrocious, as would the max dex bonus. However, what do you think the bonus to AC would be?

We've already established the stone is one solid piece, without gaps or breaks. You might be able to form it into some shape with holes (like a donut/tarus) but something as complex as a suit or armor is right out. Also, the spell specifies that the wall needs to merge with it's surroundings, so you're speed is now 0 ft., and your team will need to chip you free.

I think that if you (have recieved a serious blow to the head and) want a suit of stone armor, there are other spells that can get it for you easier than this.

[Wookie-ranger]

It seams to me that you and your friend have a different perception of what kind of stone wall if created.

First of all, I don't think there are any cracks in the wall. It if a brand new wall that looks like 'normal' stone wall you would see in a building. I am basing this on the descriptions in the "http://www.mygarden.lt/wp-content/uploads/dry_stone_wall.jpg".

It wold look something like this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/Stone_wall.jpg)


There is also another type of stone wall. It would be a "dry stacked (http://www.mygarden.lt/wp-content/uploads/dry_stone_wall.jpg)" stone wall.
This type of stone wall does not use mortar, cement or concrete to hold together and would most likely include cracks and small gaps. Since there is no mention of mortar in the spell description it is not completely wrong.
But again, in the "Stronghold builder's guide" it is states multiple times that you can use the spell from the crude construction of building. A dry stacked wall cannot.


cut for length

wall of stone can only create something that is a "wall", i.e. some kind of stone construction, such as walls, domes, bridges; but not objects, such as armor of weapons.
That's what stone shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneShape.htm) or fabricate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm) are for :smallbiggrin:

[Karoht]

For the notion of the vampire declaring the stone wall prison to be his new coffin, that is why I trapped another player inside with him. If he reformed, he'd get staked. The player I trapped him in with could easily drop him in a single strike, nevermind staking him.

[OracleofWuffing]

Uh, this may have unintended consequences, since the stream of higher-speed, lower-pressure air will tend to flow around the rock and reform (with additional turbulence from non-laminar flow) on the other side, which means that a roundish rock of maybe up to twice hand-size is likely to allow the candle to be blown out. A slab held perpendicular, however, is sufficient, but probably too impractical to hold.

FTFY. ......
Both of you need to care for and feed your rocks better, those are some awfully small rocks you're using.:smallwink:

[Zanthy1]

That's what stone shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneShape.htm) or fabricate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm) are for :smallbiggrin:[/QUOTE]

So after creating the all of stone, you could use these 2 spells to turn it into armor? I do not think I would want stone armor personally, but there may be a time when it is necessary. Maybe a large tidal wave coming and you just need to been stone so it won't knock ya down.

[toapat]

That's what stone shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneShape.htm) or fabricate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm) are for :smallbiggrin:

So after creating the all of stone, you could use these 2 spells to turn it into armor? I do not think I would want stone armor personally, but there may be a time when it is necessary. Maybe a large tidal wave coming and you just need to been stone so it won't knock ya down.[/QUOTE]

Mountain Plate can be made out of stone i believe.

Doesnt make it any more useful though, but does get around the problem of Heat Metal/Warp Wood