SW Saga: Killing a jedi.

[Hyena]

So. The jedi. Man or woman, who can deflect shots, heal himself by absorbing damage, damage you whatever the distance is (Move Object requires line of sight), can mind trick you into surrendering and never, ever fails in all this, because he has 17+ bonus to UTF.
How to kill one?

[IdleMuse]

Not an infrequently-debated topic! :smallbiggrin: Turns out, there are lots of ways, more than I can enumerate right now, but I'm sure other people will be able to lists some options I haven't thought of.

The feat Unstoppable Force is pretty essential. Stopping the 'I win' buttons of Force Powers is great, and this is a pretty large bonus. Along the same idea, Grand Army of the Republic Training can be combined with Armors with high Fort bonuses (Clone Trooper fire-resistant armour has a +6 fort bonus) to also pump Will. Knighthunter Armour just gives a flat +5 Will versus UtF, which is obviously great. Talents-wise, assuming we're going NON force sensitive here, Labytinthine Mind is a good anti-Mind Trick, and then you can pick up Steel Mind off Bounty Hunter later (off the amazing Force Hunter talent tree, which you should be dipping into considerably).

As for the flip-side, putting damage on them, you have to generally look to exotic weapons. Flamethrowers are a favourite of anti-jedi builds I've seen in the past, but even something as simple as a net is something they have to deal with -without- UtF. Grenades, also great. It strikes me that disarming them is pretty useful, even if they can Move Light Object their saber back, it's still an opening.

Carrying some ysalamiri around seems good, too :smallcool:

[Alejandro]

Not an infrequently-debated topic! :smallbiggrin: Turns out, there are lots of ways, more than I can enumerate right now, but I'm sure other people will be able to lists some options I haven't thought of.

The feat Unstoppable Force is pretty essential. Stopping the 'I win' buttons of Force Powers is great, and this is a pretty large bonus. Along the same idea, Grand Army of the Republic Training can be combined with Armors with high Fort bonuses (Clone Trooper fire-resistant armour has a +6 fort bonus) to also pump Will. Knighthunter Armour just gives a flat +5 Will versus UtF, which is obviously great. Talents-wise, assuming we're going NON force sensitive here, Labytinthine Mind is a good anti-Mind Trick, and then you can pick up Steel Mind off Bounty Hunter later (off the amazing Force Hunter talent tree, which you should be dipping into considerably).

As for the flip-side, putting damage on them, you have to generally look to exotic weapons. Flamethrowers are a favourite of anti-jedi builds I've seen in the past, but even something as simple as a net is something they have to deal with -without- UtF. Grenades, also great. It strikes me that disarming them is pretty useful, even if they can Move Light Object their saber back, it's still an opening.

Carrying some ysalamiri around seems good, too :smallcool:

IdleMuse hits several good points. A few others:

Remember that enemies can Aid Another on their attack rolls. A large group of enemies can have half of them fire, while the others Aid. It adds up fast, especially if they have features that boost this Aid Another.

Area of effect weapons work well, as IdleMuse covered. Avoid grenades, some Jedi will toss them back. Missiles work well, which is why Fett has them.

Remember that not every enemy has to show themselves to the Jedi at once. A first group of disposable enemies can attack first, hopefully getting the Jedi to use some of their powers on them, and then the larger bruisers come out, mid encounter. Think little battle droids, then droidekas. (your CL may vary.)

Force using enemies may have Rebuke. Use it if they do.

Land mines and wire traps. Many Jedi will rush at you to lightsaber you and never think about what they're stepping on.

Skill based hazards. Many Jedi characters suck at trained skills other than Use the Force.

Combine melee and ranged assault. If the ranged attackers have Precise Shot, they'll all be fine, and the Jedi will be stacking up huge penalties on Block and Deflect in rapid order.

Remember that the Jedi must be aware of the attack. A great Stealth check followed by a sniper shot will do a lot of damage and they cannot Deflect it (usually.)

[LibraryOgre]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEb4FHmracg

Start at 6:39... Atton goes into how to kill a Jedi.

Grenades. Kill their allies, force them to react to that. Explosives. Long-range shots with slugthrowers

[Sidmen]

First, let me tell you that a Jedi can't mind-trick someone into surrendering. Almost 100% of the time, surrender is identical to death, which is forbidden by that power. In fact, most Jedi PCs will be lower level than non-heroic adversaries (a CL 1 trooper is level 4) so mind trick automatically fails to force an opponent to flee for 1 minute.

Anyway, on to more helpful suggestions:

The Sport Hunter feat gives slugthrowers extra bite, which prevents most of the damage absorbing abilities (SR, Resist Energy, Negate Energy, etc.) because they inflict piercing damage. Give some standard mooks this feat, training in stealth (to corner and ambush the Jedi) along with Coordinated Attack and you can murder him.

Flamethrowers, Grenades, Land Mines, and placed explosives are all very useful to completely ignore a Jedi's defenses.

Using the Stealth Field Generator (from KoTOR) along with a stealth suit (Scum and Villainy) can effectively make your adversaries invisible, so they can snipe the Jedi from emplacements across the map while shooting missile launchers modified with slinkers and concussion missiles. Taken together, these missiles do 8d6 damage and can turn around corners so the Jedi can't even hide behind a wall.

[Hyena]

Uh-huh. I get it. If you are cyborg, you can additionally fly and be totally invulnerable to the Force due to the range. But how about countering negate energy?

[Sidmen]

Uh-huh. I get it. If you are cyborg, you can additionally fly and be totally invulnerable to the Force due to the range. But how about countering negate energy?

Countering Negate Energy? Use a weapon that doesn't deal energy damage: missile launchers, slug throwers, grenade launchers, flamethrowers, etc.

[Friv]

Play a droid who specializes in Deception.

Walk up to the Jedi.

Grapple him with a surprise attack.

[Talya]

Grenades.

in saga, this can't be stressed enough. As a frequent Jedi player, grenades ruin my day.

[RandomLunatic]

IMO, the Stymie talent, from the Clone Wars CG is the single best Jedi-killer talent in the game. No attack roll, no skill or ability check, just pick somebody within 12 squares as a Swift action and slap a -5 penalty on their UtF checks, crippling both their offense and defense in one fell swoop. Granted, the Swift action prevents both aiming and full-attacking, but if you are within 12 squares of a Force User, holding still is probably a bad idea anyway, since that is in range of both lightsaber and most of the nastier Force powers.

Sadly, Stymie alone does not get rid of your problem. You also need to shoot him. Grenades and missiles are generally good go-tos, but if the target is aware of the Grenade defense option from Clone Wars, watch out. While expensive, Electronets are fun, especially if paired with the Grapple Resistance and Pin feats, stunning the target and holding him still for your allies to shoot. Sonic weaponry is the classic Jedi-killer, being undeflectable. Slugthrowers in their various forms can still be blocked, but not Redirected back at you or absorbed. The Blaster Cannon and its Heavy cousin from the Legacy guide are excellent-as non-autofire AoE weapons, Deflect is useless. If Heavy weaponry is not an option, the Rail Detonator Gun from the FUCG and the double-shot setting of the Legacy guide's Double-Barrel Carbine are both Rifles that fall into the same loophole. The Concussion Rifle from Unknown Regions appears to be made specifically to **** with Jedi, because not only is it Sonic, and thus undeflectable, but it also knocks the target prone and helps keep them safely at arm's reach. None of these require EWP, by the way. While Flamethrowers, Pulse Rifles, and Deck Sweepers all work, they require getting closer to your target than is likely healthy.

If none of the weapons above are available, massed autofire works in a pinch. It cannot be redirected, and Deflect only reduces the damage by half (or none if you failed to beat his Reflex). Individually, it is not much, but the -5 for successive attacks will wear him down if you can get enough shooters. Actually, one of my better Jedi-killer (actually Sith, but the concepts apply) builds dual-wielded ESPO guns with Burst Fire, and simply shot enemies to ribbons with sheer volume of fire.

[Alejandro]

I suppose I was too harsh on grenades. They work great on Jedi, unless the Jedi has readied themselves to fling it away, or has Evasion.

Here's another option: Blow up the ship the Jedi is in. Many Jedi suck at starships. Unfortunately, they often have fellow PCs who do not.

[KillianHawkeye]

If you want to kill a Jedi just with blasters, it can be done but you basically need overwhelming numbers (just like in the movies). Jedi take a penalty for each successive attempt to deflect/redirect a blaster shot, and their ability to Negate Energy is going to be limited by the number of uses of it they have. If you shoot them enough in a single turn, eventually shots will start getting through. Having large numbers also helps keep your whole plan from being ruined by Mind Trick.

[Sidmen]

I suppose I was too harsh on grenades. They work great on Jedi, unless the Jedi has readied themselves to fling it away, or has Evasion.

Here's another option: Blow up the ship the Jedi is in. Many Jedi suck at starships. Unfortunately, they often have fellow PCs who do not.
Assuming that your GM has added a new option to Use the Force that lets them affect grenades, which normally isn't an option. A grenade is thrown, an attack roll is made, and affected characters take damage.

Only if the GM decides to let Move Light Object affect a grenade (which is a legit decision - just not one that I'd allow, given that I also don't let them use it on arrows or bullets from slugthrowers) is there an opening to "just throw it back".

[Dienekes]

Assuming that your GM has added a new option to Use the Force that lets them affect grenades, which normally isn't an option. A grenade is thrown, an attack roll is made, and affected characters take damage.

Only if the GM decides to let Move Light Object affect a grenade (which is a legit decision - just not one that I'd allow, given that I also don't let them use it on arrows or bullets from slugthrowers) is there an opening to "just throw it back".

I believe he's just making use of the Grenade Defense talent, I'm not 100% sure which book it's from, but I think it allows you to use move light object vs the attack roll as a reaction to fling it away.

[Flickerdart]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEb4FHmracg

Start at 6:39... Atton goes into how to kill a Jedi.

Grenades. Kill their allies, force them to react to that. Explosives. Long-range shots with slugthrowers
I'll call your Atton and raise you HK-47 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPeI4mX8Nus).

[Alejandro]

Assuming that your GM has added a new option to Use the Force that lets them affect grenades, which normally isn't an option. A grenade is thrown, an attack roll is made, and affected characters take damage.

Only if the GM decides to let Move Light Object affect a grenade (which is a legit decision - just not one that I'd allow, given that I also don't let them use it on arrows or bullets from slugthrowers) is there an opening to "just throw it back".

I was referring to the material on page 10 of the Jedi handbook, where move light object has an application against grenades. But, you have to ready the action.

[Sidmen]

I was referring to the material on page 10 of the Jedi handbook, where move light object has an application against grenades. But, you have to ready the action.

Ahh, they actually made that an application? Lame... I know it was a house ruling from the guys over at Order 66 a LONG time ago.

Still, it's effectively giving up your entire turn to redirect one grenade that might or might not get thrown - so nobody's going to be using it unless they're clairvoyant.

[Vknight]

So what a Jedi is...

[Sidmen]

So what a Jedi is...
And which players are not.

[LibraryOgre]

I'll call your Atton and raise you HK-47 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPeI4mX8Nus).

Excellent. I play way too Light to ever see this.

[Mando Knight]

Countering Negate Energy? Use a weapon that doesn't deal energy damage: missile launchers, slug throwers, grenade launchers, flamethrowers, etc.

Or just keep shooting. Negate Energy costs more to keep up than the blaster bolts that it's negating.

[Philistine]

Excellent. I play way too Light to ever see this.

Influence in KotOR2 worked on an absolute value scale - you could get the same conversations at -100 Influence as at +100. IIRC, Canderous was the only NPC you couldn't fully unlock that way, and that was just because there weren't enough -Influence points for him in the game; I know that I fully unlocked both HK-47 and G0-T0 in LS playthroughs.

[shadow_archmagi]

Are there any games that really let you do all the things described short of running the PnP rpg with a GM that likes evil parties?

It sounds like a lot of fun. Collecting information on my target, eliminating his loved ones, striking at him from afar, laying traps...

The ultimate big game hunt.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Are there any games that really let you do all the things described short of running the PnP rpg with a GM that likes evil parties?

It sounds like a lot of fun. Collecting information on my target, eliminating his loved ones, striking at him from afar, laying traps...

The ultimate big game hunt.

You can kind of sort of play The Old Republic like this as a Bounty Hunter or Imperial Agent (incidentally, that's a sequel to the game people have been linking clips from. Kind of). Otherwise you're looking more at stealth-based video games like the Hitman series.

[Immabozo]

I had the pleasure of playing with a very out-of-the-box thinking player. We were fighting a sith that was supposed to take the whole party to take down, but one was hurt bad quick and the other jedi was a little panzy scardy cat and I was alone and ran.

The sith followed and got close to the ship, so our pilot hit the maneuvering thrusters full blast to the left (without taking off) and broke the legs off, instantly killing the sith by full on crushing the sith between the side of the space ship and the ground.

Space ships falling on them are very hazardous to their health.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Normally I'd have said the Sith gets a reflex save to Force-jump out of the way of that, but it's entirely possible that plan was so stupid even a Force-user couldn't have seen it coming. Which is the best kind of stupid.

[shadow_archmagi]

HK-47 does recommend using strange and impulsive methods to help bypass their precognition.

[Alejandro]

I had the pleasure of playing with a very out-of-the-box thinking player. We were fighting a sith that was supposed to take the whole party to take down, but one was hurt bad quick and the other jedi was a little panzy scardy cat and I was alone and ran.

The sith followed and got close to the ship, so our pilot hit the maneuvering thrusters full blast to the left (without taking off) and broke the legs off, instantly killing the sith by full on crushing the sith between the side of the space ship and the ground.

Space ships falling on them are very hazardous to their health.

I assume the ship took major structural damage as well?

[KillianHawkeye]

I assume the ship took major structural damage as well?

Totally worth it. :smallamused:

[shadow_archmagi]

I don't even know that it'd hurt the ship that much. I mean, ships survive falling from orbit often enough, I don't see that falling on its side would be that significant of an impact.

[Alejandro]

Well, they broke all the landing gear off, and hit a solid wall at full thrust. Not good :)

[shadow_archmagi]

Well, they broke all the landing gear off, and hit a solid wall at full thrust. Not good :)


Not a wall, the post specifies the ground. He just flipped the ship on its side is all. Probably didn't hit full thrust, given the limited acceleration time.

[Nanoblack]

Don't mean to jack the thread, but I've got this issue IRL.

I just started a Saga game last night and two of our players are being overtly controlling "goth kid" sith. I'm a psychopathic astromech droid, so much of this doesn't bother me, but right at the end of the game I made a decision that they didn't particularly like and it was quite strongly hinted that they would unload their full force arsenal at me on a whim. That left a bad taste in my mouth.

We just got our hands on a Firespray class ship and are busy modifying it, but I have some leftover money for gear. I'm not so concerned with lightsabers right now as their playing more inquisitor types, so my focus is on countering the force which seems stupidly difficult since pumping UtF is impossibly easy and pumping saves isn't. Two powers I know are in play for sure are Force lighting and Move object which are stupid cheap and insanely powerful... did I mention this is level 1?

[Immabozo]

Sorry, I missed the replies on this thread. The ship fell into sand. Yes it was damaged, but not bad and the 25,000 credit bounty on his head paid for repairs with no problem, or would have, but I think we were in the market for a new ship and had just ridiculous amounts of money.

Evil campaign. We were hired to be security for a drug transport, we instead stole the money, drugs and ships (3 of them) day one. LOTS of money. Day two, we robbed a bank. Day three a lot of bounty hunting and transport missions. We made like an average of 20,000 credits each night we played. Our GM constantly say "ummm... crap.... you weren't supposed to do that."


I made a decision that they didn't particularly like and it was quite strongly hinted that they would unload their full force arsenal at me on a whim. That left a bad taste in my mouth.

What was this decision?


We just got our hands on a Firespray class ship and are busy modifying it, but I have some leftover money for gear. I'm not so concerned with lightsabers right now as their playing more inquisitor types, so my focus is on countering the force which seems stupidly difficult since pumping UtF is impossibly easy and pumping saves isn't. Two powers I know are in play for sure are Force lighting and Move object which are stupid cheap and insanely powerful... did I mention this is level 1?

You could always install a security system on the ship that turns on your attackers, even if they are members of the party. My group was a big fan of a security system with abundant sensors around the ship and amazing hacking firewalls that deployed a tricked out Droidika when anyone not registered with the system, entered the ship, or anyone was attacked or harmed. Level 1 jedi will have a problem with a Droideka. A lot of problems.

[IdleMuse]

Don't mean to jack the thread, but I've got this issue IRL.

I just started a Saga game last night and two of our players are being overtly controlling "goth kid" sith. I'm a psychopathic astromech droid, so much of this doesn't bother me, but right at the end of the game I made a decision that they didn't particularly like and it was quite strongly hinted that they would unload their full force arsenal at me on a whim. That left a bad taste in my mouth.

We just got our hands on a Firespray class ship and are busy modifying it, but I have some leftover money for gear. I'm not so concerned with lightsabers right now as their playing more inquisitor types, so my focus is on countering the force which seems stupidly difficult since pumping UtF is impossibly easy and pumping saves isn't. Two powers I know are in play for sure are Force lighting and Move object which are stupid cheap and insanely powerful... did I mention this is level 1?

This sucks :smallmad: nobody likes being bullied. A great example of why darkside games don't work, unless the players work together to facilitate it.

Does your character have any reason to continue hanging about with these Sith? I mean, there's a reason that it's not recommended that GMs allow dark side characters, they generally aren't great for party cohesion. If I was a droid, and my Sith companions started being ***** to me like that, I'd just walk away. Fly away, if I can pilot the ship.

Basically, when allowing darkside characters, your GM should have found some way of ensuring the party actually have to stay together, because otherwise, generally, they don't. It doesn't necessarily have much to do with Force Powers; they could just as easily have threatened to disable you while you're deactivated, the Droid equivalent of stabbing you while you sleep.

If your party is held together by some overarching power (like an employer), talk to them about it. If not, then have a quiet talk to your GM; mention that if the other character continue to be threatening, there's no reason for your character to stick around. The goal here isn't to get him to force them to be nice to you, that's petty. Heck, if you have a good OoC relationship with the other players, talk to them! It's in their interest to have the game contnue, after all.

Anyway, if your GM isn't accomodating, or doesn't see anything wrong with this kind of behaviour (likely, if they're running a rampant-darkside game), then your choices are either 1) leave OoC, 2) leave IC, 3) reroll, or 4) get back at them somehow. What are your specialities?

[Immabozo]

they generally aren't great for party cohesion.

And we see why the Sith are now only in a master and apprentice role with only two sith, no more, no less.

[Nanoblack]

What was this decision?



You could always install a security system on the ship that turns on your attackers, even if they are members of the party. My group was a big fan of a security system with abundant sensors around the ship and amazing hacking firewalls that deployed a tricked out Droidika when anyone not registered with the system, entered the ship, or anyone was attacked or harmed. Level 1 jedi will have a problem with a Droideka. A lot of problems.

We had just wrecked a Hutts palace with one of the bombs he sent out to kill us. While sifting through the wreckage we found his personal vault area and a ton of exotic animal eggs. Among them were a Rancor and (dun dun dun) Krayt Dragon eggs. The sith, being shady as all hell, attempted to abscond with the spoils that the other two players and I had worked so hard to explode out of this greedy little Hutt. I caught them, and having little to no self preservation protocols, confronted them stating "3/3 shares of loot going to those who contributed 0/0 to obtain it is an unacceptable margin". This was when I was threatened with lightning and I was forced to respond by stating "I am LITERALLY laden with high explosives, that is a decision that will send all of you organics screaming to your death in a molten ball of fire. I suggest reconsidering your decision". Our chubby Rodian convinced me to stand down since he found a fighter in their vehicle bay, so we just split after that.

A security system sounds nice, but these guys can throw our ship like it's nothing, so I'd prefer to find a way to counter their methods or kill them a quick as possible if they engage hostilities. Note: I do not plan to fire the first shot, yet.


This sucks :smallmad: nobody likes being bullied. A great example of why darkside games don't work, unless the players work together to facilitate it.

Does your character have any reason to continue hanging about with these Sith? I mean, there's a reason that it's not recommended that GMs allow dark side characters, they generally aren't great for party cohesion. If I was a droid, and my Sith companions started being ***** to me like that, I'd just walk away. Fly away, if I can pilot the ship.

Basically, when allowing darkside characters, your GM should have found some way of ensuring the party actually have to stay together, because otherwise, generally, they don't. It doesn't necessarily have much to do with Force Powers; they could just as easily have threatened to disable you while you're deactivated, the Droid equivalent of stabbing you while you sleep.

If your party is held together by some overarching power (like an employer), talk to them about it. If not, then have a quiet talk to your GM; mention that if the other character continue to be threatening, there's no reason for your character to stick around. The goal here isn't to get him to force them to be nice to you, that's petty. Heck, if you have a good OoC relationship with the other players, talk to them! It's in their interest to have the game contnue, after all.

Anyway, if your GM isn't accomodating, or doesn't see anything wrong with this kind of behaviour (likely, if they're running a rampant-darkside game), then your choices are either 1) leave OoC, 2) leave IC, 3) reroll, or 4) get back at them somehow. What are your specialities?

Well myself and two other party members are having a blast doing the ol' insane band of mercenaries bit right now so re-roll is not an option, especially if it means just rolling up another person to bend over for the two sith. The two troublemakers are actually boyfriend and girlfriend which is why they made nearly identical characters, and are set to the point I don't think talking would change their minds. They are the type to respond to OOC party cohesion talks with "but the thing is, as a sith I would not tolerate such inane behavior and neither would she".

The GM is a pushover and is the type to let these things happen, so he is effectively out of the equation as an arbiter. Lastly, I am far too stubborn to just leave the game. So, I am left with working within the constraints of my unfortunate environment.

Here is the sheet for reference: RB-1 Impostor Droid (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=494000). I'm sure I've messed up a multitude of things on this sheet such as carrying capacity, but I'm trying to cram as much as possible into my small frame.

SUGGESTIONS WAN... no... NEEDED

[shadow_archmagi]

Well then, what has HK-47 taught us?

1. Deny Defenses
1A. Deny precognition. Act impulsively. Pick a plan you can throw into motion at any time.
1B. Deny lightsaber parry.
1B1. Use an unblockable weapon, such as a sonic blaster or slug thrower.
1B2. Use an environmental hazard, such as poison gas, landmines, rockslides.
1B3. Use a really big gun, such as the ones mounted to the ship you can fly.
1C. Deny dodge. Use extremely large explosives.

2. Deny Retaliation.
2A. Strike from considerable distance. Sniper rifle ideal.
2B. Strike from behind difficult to cross barrier. Minefield, thugs, laser fence.
2C. Deny line of sight. Smoke grenade, darkness, smokey darkness. Remember to install infrared eyes.

3. Deny Rationality.
3A. If the rest of the party sides with you, make sure that the sith are well aware that everyone around them hates them.
3B. If the Sith have any loved ones, terminate them first. Hide the body parts throughout their living quarters.
3C. Taunt them.
3C1. Taunt them using a simple commlink
3C2. If the environment allows, taunt them by hacking into common appliances around them. Let the toaster and the coffeemaker deliver your insults and death threats.

4. Deny Culpability.
4A. The Sith are wanted psychopaths, yes? Ideally, then, you should be able to use local law enforcement, past victims, and even Jedi as tools to help you destroy them. It is possible that murdering them will ultimately be as simple as choosing not to help them escape their fate. Possibly even the players will never realize why their Sith avatars died so quickly.

[Hyena]

Oh, so you confront force users, eh? Well, good luck. As my recent... experience proved, none of these tactics really work.
I've ambushed a jedi with twenty NPC armed with special-case weapons. The jedi won. Of course. these were non-heroics, but still.

But you've got an advantage. You're a droid. Which means you, if you spend a small fortune, can buy for yourself fly speed of 12 without any sort of restraint like fuel.
Have this thread mentioned already that most of force powers work at the range of twelve squares or even six?

[shadow_archmagi]

Oh, so you confront force users, eh? Well, good luck. As my recent... experience proved, none of these tactics really work.
I've ambushed a jedi with twenty NPC armed with special-case weapons. The jedi won. Of course. these were non-heroics, but still.




None of the tactics work ALONE. You have to use as many of them as you can. A jedi can kill a sniper. A jedi in a smokescreen surrounded by landmines has a harder time killing a sniper. Add in four more snipers and you have decent odds. Spread the snipers out and rig them with thermal detonators set to go off when they die, and you're getting closer to a good plan.

[Hyena]

Well, I had twenty men, a sniper, sonic weapons and a suprise round. The smoke screen would be worthless, since the jedi was a miraluka.
I guess, the true reason behind my crushing defeat was that jedi was way more powerful and my sniper had just terrible rolls (not one, not two, but four fumbles in a row). Oh, and nobody knew that move object had maximum range back then.

[Immabozo]

I say, strike first and give them a taste of their own medicine. Buy (or otherwise obtain) a second ship. Even if the sith are pilots, tell them they are above piloting such a mediocre trip, stroke their ego. Buy pilot droids. Lock them into the ship, no access to the Bridge. Install one of those lizards in the roof (after they are airborne) that deny a force user's access to the force (not required, but makes it easier) and then pilot the ship remotely into a star.

Good luck surviving that. @&$holes.

[Hyena]

Why even pilot a ship into the star, anyway? All you've got to do is to sabotage the hyperdrive and break all the communicators.
First the sith will laugh it off. Then they will remember what was the last time they bought any food. Or saw the single party member with Mechanics as a class skill.

[Immabozo]

ooohh, thats another really good one. But might as well send it drifting in the direction of a star, no reason not to!

[Nanoblack]

Well then, what has HK-47 taught us?

1. Deny Defenses
1A. Deny precognition. Act impulsively. Pick a plan you can throw into motion at any time.
1B. Deny lightsaber parry.
1B1. Use an unblockable weapon, such as a sonic blaster or slug thrower.
1B2. Use an environmental hazard, such as poison gas, landmines, rockslides.
1B3. Use a really big gun, such as the ones mounted to the ship you can fly.
1C. Deny dodge. Use extremely large explosives.

2. Deny Retaliation.
2A. Strike from considerable distance. Sniper rifle ideal.
2B. Strike from behind difficult to cross barrier. Minefield, thugs, laser fence.
2C. Deny line of sight. Smoke grenade, darkness, smokey darkness. Remember to install infrared eyes.

3. Deny Rationality.
3A. If the rest of the party sides with you, make sure that the sith are well aware that everyone around them hates them.
3B. If the Sith have any loved ones, terminate them first. Hide the body parts throughout their living quarters.
3C. Taunt them.
3C1. Taunt them using a simple commlink
3C2. If the environment allows, taunt them by hacking into common appliances around them. Let the toaster and the coffeemaker deliver your insults and death threats.

4. Deny Culpability.
4A. The Sith are wanted psychopaths, yes? Ideally, then, you should be able to use local law enforcement, past victims, and even Jedi as tools to help you destroy them. It is possible that murdering them will ultimately be as simple as choosing not to help them escape their fate. Possibly even the players will never realize why their Sith avatars died so quickly.

1A-C: I'm only a small sized droid, so I'm limited on the amount of weaponry I can carry at one time. I've talked the DM into letting me embed a blaster cannon into my chassis, but I'm having trouble locating room for a missile launcher and a flamethrower. The other stuff like poisons and landmines I just haven'e been able to locate in any of my available books.

2A-C: All good ideas. I need to sneak onto their ship and start lacing it with remote cutoffs so I can dismantle it from afar.

3A-C: Unfortunately in this case, they are quite confident that two force users can massacre three guys with guns of equal level. They have some pet lizard they're always seen with, but I'm not sure how lining their glovebox with it's entrails would help. My character is a walking taunt machine, so we're not short on that, but I don't want to be the person to blame for PVP escalation, so I'm kind of wanting to wait for them so set events off, I just want to prepare.

4: This is the path I'm hoping things will take, so I'll have minimal accountability. It seems the Rodian player is the only one with any kind of useful knowledge of the setting, so I wouldn't even know where to begin to look for people to take these guys down. Especially since they have the empire backing them...

[Immabozo]

so what exactly is your character built to do?

[shadow_archmagi]

If they've got the empire backing them, they probably also have the empire watching them. Make it clear that they're threats, and the stormtroopers do the rest.

Alternatively, crush them with the spaceship.

[Immabozo]

Alternatively, crush them with the spaceship.

:biggrin: I very much agree. This tactic has worked well for me in the past.

[Nanoblack]

so what exactly is your character built to do?

My original intention was to make a small sized assassin droid which is why I'm starting with scoundrel and dastardly strike, but after the party started making characters, we realized we needed a navigator and someone with mechanics so I took the opportunity. Those are tertiary functions though, I still want him to kill stuff as that's the direction games in my group tend to go.

[Immabozo]

Check out the assassin PrC. You will seriously destroy them in combat, should you get the drop. A jedi/sith cannot block/deflect attacks they are not aware of, thus the advantages of a surprise round.

And get lightsabers, I believe they are the most damaging melee weapon. I made a dual lightsaber wielding assassin that just DESTROYED in combat. 2D8+1D6+13 and if they are flatfooted or flanked, 1D6 sneak attack and another 1D6 per conditions track point I move them down PER HIT with two attacks a pound for an average damage of 25/25 and assuming that surpasses damage thresh hold, another 3/3 against specified target (until that target dies you cannot re-assign) So average damage total is 56 (without sneak attack, max damage 94 and two down the conditions track, per turn, with a free standard action when you down an opponent, once per encounter.

[Nanoblack]

I was actually planning on going into Bounty hunter first. The ability to drop them on the condition track after aiming is awesome.

[Immabozo]

I'll have to check that one out. It assassin also has great talents for ranged combat. Stupidly amazing talents. Many more for ranged than melee.

[Rainbownaga]

Remember: Droids don't need to breathe and can't be affected by poisons.

Set a protocol to depressurise the ships by overiding the airlocks. You don't sleep so you should be able to do it while nobody's looking (assuming your computer skills are good). Then set it to automatically go off in deep space if they try to leave without you, or to go off on command if they attempt to attack you while in space.

Carrying large amounts of nerve-agents would be pretty useful too, i imagine.

[Nanoblack]

What book can I find all of these nifty poisons and explosives in?

[Immabozo]

My guess would be Scum and Villany

[IdleMuse]

There's always hard vacuum. Get yourself a fusion cutter, some magnetic feed, and arrange to be on their ship with them. Open a hole through the hull and, unless they're Givin, there isn't much they can do. Sneaking onto their ship should be easy as a Droid, they can't sense your life. Might want to write this down as a paranoia note to your GM, to avoid them metagaming.

However, do be aware that killing people's PCs really should be a last ditch thing. If you have two other PCs who you actually enjoy roleplaying with, well, try to just ignore (IC) the two sith. Start excluding them from missions, and so on. If the other two players are finding their behavior equally frustrating, then this approach would probably be quite easy to implement. Don't tell them what time you're meeting at the cantina, treat them like the children they're acting like. I'm sure their players will get the point fairly quickly.

[Nanoblack]

However, do be aware that killing people's PCs really should be a last ditch thing. If you have two other PCs who you actually enjoy roleplaying with, well, try to just ignore (IC) the two sith. Start excluding them from missions, and so on. If the other two players are finding their behavior equally frustrating, then this approach would probably be quite easy to implement. Don't tell them what time you're meeting at the cantina, treat them like the children they're acting like. I'm sure their players will get the point fairly quickly.

As I stated above, I don't want to be the one who escalates things to PVP, but I want to be prepared for the day sparky the sith apprentice gets a wild hair up his ass and decides to start imploding everything within several hundred meters.

EDIT: Besides, it seems like Jedi are about the hardest thing to kill in the game, so if I'm prepared to take on two I should be able to survive anything else thrown at me.

[shadow_archmagi]

Unfortunately, there isn't a whole lot that lets you survive a Jedi. There are ways of KILLING a jedi, sure, but that's something you have to strike first for.

If it were me, I'd just keep using the gambit you've already got: Tell them you have a deadly, deadly bomb implanted in you. If you die, they die. Also everyone on the planet dies.

Telling the truth optional.

[Immabozo]

Tell them you have a deadly, deadly bomb implanted in you. If you die, they die. Also everyone on the planet dies.

The ability to destroy a planet is nothing compared to the power of the force

[LibraryOgre]

You are a droid. You don't need to breath.

Your ship goes in space. Space does not have air.

Get to interplanetary space, close a blast door, vent to space.

"No matter how subtle the sith sorcerer, exposure to hard vacuum will severely crimp his style."

[Alejandro]

Don't mean to jack the thread, but I've got this issue IRL.

I just started a Saga game last night and two of our players are being overtly controlling "goth kid" sith. I'm a psychopathic astromech droid, so much of this doesn't bother me, but right at the end of the game I made a decision that they didn't particularly like and it was quite strongly hinted that they would unload their full force arsenal at me on a whim. That left a bad taste in my mouth.

We just got our hands on a Firespray class ship and are busy modifying it, but I have some leftover money for gear. I'm not so concerned with lightsabers right now as their playing more inquisitor types, so my focus is on countering the force which seems stupidly difficult since pumping UtF is impossibly easy and pumping saves isn't. Two powers I know are in play for sure are Force lighting and Move object which are stupid cheap and insanely powerful... did I mention this is level 1?

IdleMuse already covered it, but this is why you avoid Dark Side characters in the party. Ironically, they also tend to be (not always) played by players who are immature or jerks. Kind of like movie Anakin, actually.

[Alejandro]

You are a droid. You don't need to breath.

Your ship goes in space. Space does not have air.

Get to interplanetary space, close a blast door, vent to space.

"No matter how subtle the sith sorcerer, exposure to hard vacuum will severely crimp his style."

Mark speaks truth. If you really, really want to get these loser Sith PCs back, wait until you are taking a hyperspace trip together, and they rest. They sleep, you don't. Take critical parts out of the life support equipment and jettison them from the ship. (I am assuming none of the Sith are awesome mechanics.)

Guess what? They die, and you live. :)

[Alejandro]

One of my fellow gamers just suggested this:

Aaron: in fact if you wanted to be sneaky about it just break the O2 scrubbers the would slowly die of CO2 poisoning, and by the time they realized there was a problem their judgement and motor skills would already be impaired

Aaron: buy a flamethrower and/or napalm grenades to keep them at bay and burn up the remaining oxygen in the ship.

Now THAT is cruel, and effective. Bonus points if you get rid of any breath masks laying around the ship.

[Nanoblack]

Actually after all of the suggestions about suffocating them, I plan on replacing the canisters on their breather masks with poison, so if they reach for it when I depressurize their quarters they inadvertently poison themselves as well.

[Alejandro]

Actually after all of the suggestions about suffocating them, I plan on replacing the canisters on their breather masks with poison, so if they reach for it when I depressurize their quarters they inadvertently poison themselves as well.

Don't bother with that. Force users have an ability that lets them ignore inhaling poisons for a significant time. Quigon and Obiwan do it on film, and it's in one of the books. I don't know if your fellow PCs know about it, but assume they do.

[Thrysierius]

One of my fellow gamers just suggested this:

Aaron: in fact if you wanted to be sneaky about it just break the O2 scrubbers the would slowly die of CO2 poisoning, and by the time they realized there was a problem their judgement and motor skills would already be impaired

Aaron: buy a flamethrower and/or napalm grenades to keep them at bay and burn up the remaining oxygen in the ship.

Now THAT is cruel, and effective. Bonus points if you get rid of any breath masks laying around the ship.

Great ideas, and I thought of another that would work well as a response to them trying to cut/crush you. Install some compressed gas cylinders in armor plates and/or existing joins that are designed to expel their contents when cut/crushed. Inside these capsules you can store either a neuro toxin or tabana gas that you could easily light to burn them. Negate Energy only works so well.

[Alejandro]

Ooh! If you're an astromech and decent at Use Computer, you can play havoc with the ship's computer systems. Maybe a nasty virus that goes after life support monitoring programs...

[Thrysierius]

That is a good question, what kind of droid model is your PC based off of? Knowing that info would go a long way to letting us know what other options are available for you

[Alejandro]

He said he's an astromech droid. That's why we give you picture gaming books, Thryserius. :smallwink:

[shadow_archmagi]

Don't bother with that. Force users have an ability that lets them ignore inhaling poisons for a significant time. Quigon and Obiwan do it on film, and it's in one of the books. I don't know if your fellow PCs know about it, but assume they do.

It's unlikely that they'll have that particular power.

Also, without reading the specific rules for in in the SWSaga books, it's entirely possible that it just lets you hold your breath, which is unhelpful if you've slapped on a gas mask and starting breathing what you hope is air

[Hyena]

It's unlikely that they'll have that particular power.
Uh, in fact, they have it. It's one of the method of using the Force from KOTOR rulebook, you don't even have to have force training for that.

[Sidmen]

Uh, in fact, they have it. It's one of the method of using the Force from KOTOR rulebook, you don't even have to have force training for that.

That's the hold breath option, he was talking about the power that lets you ignore poisons. (Not a power, a regimen).

[Alejandro]

That's the hold breath option, he was talking about the power that lets you ignore poisons. (Not a power, a regimen).

The Force is strong with this one. :)

[IdleMuse]

Going off track slightly, I really like Force Regimens. They're often overlooked because really, players often don't want to learn another subsystem. But for the cost of one feat, you can get quite a lot of useful bonuses and nice abilities that are common to jedi in canon, but no necessarily mechanically. Particularly, Awaken Force Sensitivity, but also Quiet the Mind, Vo'ren's first cadence, they'd probably be the first I'd take.

[Alejandro]

They are good. And underutilized. :)

Another idea: There's probably something in the ship that can give off carbon monoxide, if fiddled with. Do that, make sure to disable any alarms in the ship that go off if the atmosphere content changes, and let them die in their sleep.

[Immabozo]

or plant mines under there pillows or mattresses (do they use mattresses in Star Wars?)

[Alejandro]

or plant mines under there pillows or mattresses (do they use mattresses in Star Wars?)

That's not a very good idea. They might find it, or sense the trap, and the explosion might hurt the droid or the ship, assuming the droid wants to keep it. If you want to murder people, make it look like an accident and keep collateral damage low.

[Sidmen]

Well, after last night I can confirm that it is indeed possible to kill Jedi, as we lost two level 7 Jedi PCs in the same session.

Hordes upon hordes of CL 1/3 minions just kept charging us and shooting us with pulse-wave rifles. We took out 20 of the buggers before they were exhausted and we continued on with our mission. Then a landmine on a narrow bridge (over an infinite hole) ended us (we had 12 and 20 HP respectively).

The last Jedi, with a paltry 20-some HP left, had to complete the mission and spent almost too long trying to figure a way to escape with our unconscious bodies before he ended up taking our lightsabers and fleeing - using his last Destiny Points to sneak past the troops on the ship and make it to the shuttle just as Bastila Shan was dragging Revan's unconscious corpse aboard.

He escaped, but only just. And our sacrifice to disable the Gravity Well Projector ended up saving the galaxy, so - worth it.

[Alejandro]

The Sport Hunter feat gives slugthrowers extra bite, which prevents most of the damage absorbing abilities (SR, Resist Energy, Negate Energy, etc.) because they inflict piercing damage.

Sidmen, a question/clarification: When you say SR, are you talking about Shield Rating? If so, I am not aware of any rule or errata that says damage type matters when attacking something with a shield rating. Does it?

[Sidmen]

Sidmen, a question/clarification: When you say SR, are you talking about Shield Rating? If so, I am not aware of any rule or errata that says damage type matters when attacking something with a shield rating. Does it?

I am indeed talking about Shield Rating.

It comes from the Energy Shield of KoTOR, which says "An energy shield only protects against weapons that deal energy damage; a weapon that deals any other type of damage bypasses the shield's SR entirely."

Coming back later, and looking for it in the core, I can see that it was probably expressly calling out these specific energy shields. But when we first encountered it, it just clicked as a "duh, shields only work against Energy weapons - otherwise they'd just be DR.

[Alejandro]

I am indeed talking about Shield Rating.

It comes from the Energy Shield of KoTOR, which says "An energy shield only protects against weapons that deal energy damage; a weapon that deals any other type of damage bypasses the shield's SR entirely."

Coming back later, and looking for it in the core, I can see that it was probably expressly calling out these specific energy shields. But when we first encountered it, it just clicked as a "duh, shields only work against Energy weapons - otherwise they'd just be DR.

Hmm. I have always had SR reduce any kind of damage, since that is what the core book said. Basically like DR that slowly reduces as damage penetrates it. However, the material you are referring to seems to imply that it's only talking about the Energy Shield personal defense item, as you mentioned.

It would matter a great deal for starships. Shields wouldn't help against a proton torpedo attack, as it's just a physical projectile that explodes when it strikes (in WEG d6, shields never did help against attacks like that.)

Edit: But at the same time, it explicitly says that the personal shield works exactly like starship shields...

Edit II: I think I answered my own question. Shields are ray and particle, but you could never wear that full spectrum of shields as personal shielding, because if you were wearing particle shielding, you would asphyxiate. :)

[Thrysierius]

I am indeed talking about Shield Rating.

It comes from the Energy Shield of KoTOR, which says "An energy shield only protects against weapons that deal energy damage; a weapon that deals any other type of damage bypasses the shield's SR entirely."

Coming back later, and looking for it in the core, I can see that it was probably expressly calling out these specific energy shields. But when we first encountered it, it just clicked as a "duh, shields only work against Energy weapons - otherwise they'd just be DR.

In addition to Alejandro's post, I'm saying it's based on mass/velocity of the object in question.

Example 1: In Episode I: Phantom Failure, the gungans deploy very large shields to cover their troops and protect them from the tank bolts. Yet the Mark I battle droids are shown very clearly simply walking through those same shields. The rolling droids never roll through them though, they remain more or less on the outskirts and aren't seen in the fray until after several of the gungan shield generators are taken offline by the Mark Is.

Example 2: Clone Wars animated series, Anakin, Asoka and Rex are training rebels on how to fight the Separatist's droids. They're practicing rolling droid poppers past the shields of Droidicas. Too hard and the poppers bounce away, too soft and they don't reach the target.

As listed, the personal/starship energy shields would seem to imply they cover some form of mass protection. If they didn't, a Wookie bow caster would not be blocked but since it is considered an energy weapon (even though it fires quirrels made of metal) and thus the personal shields do protect the wearer to some degree. Melee weapons or slug throwers aren't applied because the relative velocity of their mass is much lower than that of a blaster bolt or bow caster quirrel.

Even looking at this a bit further, blaster bolts are really a compressed/on fire "bullet" made of tibanna gas. They exhibit properties similar to objects with mass (can be blocked, can ricochet, etc.). If they were truly entirely energy, none of the block/ricochet talents/feats would work.

[Nanoblack]

New idea to force him to expend resources: droidified holo-projectors. Make a few of those diminutive sized and roll em out as decoys I can control wirelessly. Meanwhile I litter everything in the area with high explosives and take potshots with rockets and grenades.

[Immabozo]

Sneak a pill into their food or drink and this pill has walls made of a material that is dissolved in the stomach acid, then it releases a chemical that eats a hole in anything it touches, killing the sith in about 20 seconds.

[Nanoblack]

DO you know of a material that dissolves in stomach acid, but not in a solvent that can eat through anything?

[shadow_archmagi]

DO you know of a material that dissolves in stomach acid, but not in a solvent that can eat through anything?

Might as well just fill their food with tiny droids. Gets the job done without all the chemistry futzing about.

[Alejandro]

Sneak a pill into their food or drink and this pill has walls made of a material that is dissolved in the stomach acid, then it releases a chemical that eats a hole in anything it touches, killing the sith in about 20 seconds.

Um. Logic fault. :)

But besides that, even if you did release something nasty like that inside their stomach, it would be unlikely to kill them. They'd almost immediately vomit, and suffer damage along their esophagus and mouth. Maybe that's what really happened to Darth Malak? :smallcool:

[Immabozo]

There are plenty of chemicals that wont harm anything until mixed with something, like the hydrochloric acid in the stomach. Or, you could have it be like starship antifreeze. Wont hurt an inanimate material that dissolves in stomach acid and then very harmful to living tissue

[Alejandro]

Right, but most of those things can't be made into a passable pill or snuck into food. And even if you did, they'll barf before it will kill them. (I am assuming these Sith are humans, we weren't told?)

You'd be a lot better off with inhaled poison, if you're going to poison. There aren't a lot of rapid acting ingested poisons, at least in our world. The most lethal ones are airborne or bloodstream inject, and the second one will be hard to do (again, avoiding direct conflict with tough targets.)

[Immabozo]

You bring up a very good point. Just buy a nuke and be done with it.

[Nanoblack]

Okay, so I'm going through the Scum and Villainy guide and am miniaturizing everything in an attempt to cram it all in. I've got a double miniaturized blaster cannon, but am having trouble deciding what to do with my flamethrower and missile launcher (or maybe sniper rifle)

[The Glyphstone]

I think subterfuge is a better way to go about this. Arrange stuff like the ability to vent the ship's air supply. The next time the Sith threaten you, knuckle down and submit, let them think they won.

Then dump their air later. You didn't strike first, but nor did you retaliate immediately in a venue where they could counter-retaliate.

[Alejandro]

Okay, so I'm going through the Scum and Villainy guide and am miniaturizing everything in an attempt to cram it all in. I've got a double miniaturized blaster cannon, but am having trouble deciding what to do with my flamethrower and missile launcher (or maybe sniper rifle)

Skip all that crap. The Glyphstone is right. It's a lot easier to just exploit the fact that you don't need air and they do. Make it worse by lighting something acrid on fire (like a tire, or a box of rubber gaskets.) Remember, you aren't trying to win a battle with them, you are trying to murder them. That means, you want to avoid random chance (like rolling poorly when you fire those guns at them) and lean toward unfairness (like killing them while helpless.)

[shadow_archmagi]

The real question is how you murder the Sith without murdering the rest of the organics in the party, and without destroying a perfectly good spaceship, since those are a bit expensive.

[The Glyphstone]

The real question is how you murder the Sith without murdering the rest of the organics in the party, and without destroying a perfectly good spaceship, since those are a bit expensive.

Do the Sith sleep separately from the other party members? Probably. Just make your arrangements such that when the hammer drops, the meatbags you feel a shred of empathy for are locked into a compartment that keeps its air, as far away from the Sith's starting location as possible.

And opening airlocks/blast doors is very un-damaging. The most damage will be if the Sith decide to wreck the ship before they suffocate/depressurize.

[Nanoblack]

Well it just so happens that they have a separate ship. I'm now going through a checklist of things I could sabotage on the ship.


Fire extenguisher system
security systems
surveilance systems
equipment


I don't necessarily want to kill them any time soon, but I want to be as prepared as possible for when it comes to blows. Are there any good defenses against move object or force lightning? I also want to make good use of holoprojectors. lots of explosive decoys littered across their ship makes for a good time.

[The Glyphstone]

Okay, so sabotage their ship then. That makes it even easier, you just have to make sure your friends are on your ship when it all goes down. Remember, the goal is NOT to even let it come to blows...if blows are threatened, be meek and kowtowy, then horribly and unfairly assassinate them once their guard is down.

The less sabotage you do, the harder it will be to stumble upon something you did. Go for the most lethal things first, the list of which would be the airlocks/blast doors. It'd be pretty trivial to just reverse the programming on the computer to 'open all blast doors when pressure loss detected' instead of 'close all blast doors'. Link this to a command that automatically dumps their engine/hyperdrive fuel, and even if they somehow manage to get air pressure back, they're dead in space.

[Alejandro]

Well it just so happens that they have a separate ship. I'm now going through a checklist of things I could sabotage on the ship.


Fire extenguisher system
security systems
surveilance systems
equipment


I don't necessarily want to kill them any time soon, but I want to be as prepared as possible for when it comes to blows. Are there any good defenses against move object or force lightning? I also want to make good use of holoprojectors. lots of explosive decoys littered across their ship makes for a good time.

They have their own separate ship?

*maniacal laughter*

Oh, then you can do whatever you want. Ruin the thing if you want to, though I'd rather keep and sell it after you dump their corpses. All you have to do is rig their ship to have a critical life support failure. Are they trained in Mechanics? If not, they're as good as dead. If they are, then just kill them in a way where they won't know it's happening, such as carbon monoxide poisoning while they sleep. In fact, start being nice to them and fix up their ship for them, just so you can get plenty of access and gain a shred of trust. It will make murdering them a lot easier.

One good defense is the scoundrel talent Stymie. Impose a -5 penalty on their Use the Force checks. Another good defense against Force power addicts like the ones you describe is giving them too many or fake targets. Get them to use their powers up without appreciable effect, and they are very vulnerable.

Again, though, there's no need to make this fair and give them a chance to roll dice against you. That's not assassination. You want to kill them quietly and unfair-ly.

[Nanoblack]

Oh no, I would love to get my hands on their ship, but I don't think they trust the friendly neighborhood glitchy astromech droid. They've already seen I have a penchant for explosives and unbalanced behavior, so having them invite me aboard to do routine repairs isn't likely. Doubly so because they have access to Empire mechanics and pilots to crew it.

I was considering manufacturing several diminutive droidified explosive charges and sneaking them on through a vent or something.

[Alejandro]

If you can't get access, that's harder. How about just attaching a tracking device to the outside of the ship and betraying them to the Rebellion/New Republic? A squadron of X or A-wings will blow their ship up nicely, unless they're magically awesome pilots.

[Mando Knight]

In things that defeat Sith, very little tops a little application of Maxim #4. (https://schlockmercenary.wikispaces.com/The+Seventy+Maxims+of+Maximally+Effective+Mercenar ies)

[Bahumat]

I had a game once where the Force Users we were arrayed against enjoyed toying with the party, giving monologues, the whole works. The Noble decided to buy a protocol droid from some Jawas at a discount to get another body between him and the force lightning. The GM had just let me join the campaign, and as a secret from the party, the character I had asked to play was a HK model assassination droid. (Specifically, HK-45, a failed prototype of HK-47, so he was using a very similar stat-block).

This resulted in a surprise round as the Assassin Protocols went into effect during a monologue...

My solution would be to pick up some extra droids who follow your lead as bodyguards, so that you can shut down in sequence and the sith can't screw with you while asleep. In addition, picking up some more astromechs would allow you to screw with their ship without going aboard yourself.

I will also support selecting Assassin, it's an awesome class. My HK eventually became the party bruiser (went soldier into Elite Trooper, then started on assassin). The Assassin provides some much needed flexibility and damage, and the ability to shift using the Assassin's unique ability is a nice way to sneak past bodyguards to get to the Inquisitor style Sith.

Droids with melee weapons are a rather nice fix for dealing with masses of Force Powers without having some of your own. Use grenades, rockets, expendable mooks, large falling objects, nets....HK-47 covers all the good ways of murdering a Force User. In terms of the system itself.... My group found running into melee tended to do fairly well against primarily force users. Hitting someone repeatedly with your melee weapon of choice (in my case, dual lightsabers) tends to tear them apart quicker than they can beat you up with force powers, particularly if you have spent some time into applicable force defenses (like Unstoppable Force).

[Immabozo]

Get a miniature robot that you can sneak through the vent that you control remotely, then have it hook up to the computer and all it does is translate the terminal into a remote access terminal and then do as you will. The Glyphstone is a genius, I would then go with his suggestions. Over write a very small section of code that horribly alters their system in a practically untraceable and impossible to find, way. Like to open all airlocks, instead of closing and locking them in a pre-hyperspace jump checklist. Or to jettison the engines when the ship's weaponry is activated.

[Hyena]

Oh, so is just happens your enemies have both awesome pilots and mechanics? That make the whole thing just easier.
Betray your sith to the jedi. Holocall the nearest squad of republic commandos, then holocall the nearest blue/green glowstick wielder, then wait until they meet each another.
And that's the moment you attack. Directly from the guns of your spaceship, no less. You're not going to give the sith any chances, anyway.

[Mando Knight]

I will also support selecting Assassin, it's an awesome class. My HK eventually became the party bruiser (went soldier into Elite Trooper, then started on assassin). The Assassin provides some much needed flexibility and damage, and the ability to shift using the Assassin's unique ability is a nice way to sneak past bodyguards to get to the Inquisitor style Sith.

Assassin's nice, but unless you plan on going into it early, it's not necessarily easy to get into or worth branching out for... its best stuff is several levels deep and often work primarily off of other talents that a dabbler might not have, and isn't the only way to destroy enemies quickly (though can be a good part of a condition-killing character, which is probably the most effective way of attacking anything in SAGA).

[Immabozo]

Assassin's nice, but unless you plan on going into it early, it's not necessarily easy to get into or worth branching out for... its best stuff is several levels deep and often work primarily off of other talents that a dabbler might not have, and isn't the only way to destroy enemies quickly (though can be a good part of a condition-killing character, which is probably the most effective way of attacking anything in SAGA).

The most effective one is Force Stun! All conditions damage!

[Hyena]

Actually, there's nothing better then using poisons and darter.

[Immabozo]

In my last (and only) campaign, it was the evil campaign, our sith master pissed me off by a force lightning to my face for disturbing him. I rebuked it and did not turn it back on him, but I was still pissed. There was two others, I found out later, that... desired his demise, one of them quite happy to hear about my plans. I was taking the Educated in the Dark Side of the Force destiny for another +5 UTF around level 12. My plan was to, at that point, have a +21 UTF and with Strong with the Force feat and levels, have a good chance at a +8 off a force point, for 29, a destiny point for a natural 20, for a 49 UTF check, plus DM item and granted bonus to a 51 UTF check on a Force Stun. I figured if he wasn't dead, he would be far enough down the conditions track to make a fight possible.

Another possibility was to do the above with move object and the multi target force secret, and pancake my master between two rocks to do 10D6/10D6 damage, another destiny point making that about 16D6/16D6.

[Bahumat]

In my last (and only) campaign, it was the evil campaign, our sith master pissed me off by a force lightning to my face for disturbing him. I rebuked it and did not turn it back on him, but I was still pissed. There was two others, I found out later, that... desired his demise, one of them quite happy to hear about my plans. I was taking the Educated in the Dark Side of the Force destiny for another +5 UTF around level 12. My plan was to, at that point, have a +21 UTF and with Strong with the Force feat and levels, have a good chance at a +8 off a force point, for 29, a destiny point for a natural 20, for a 49 UTF check, plus DM item and granted bonus to a 51 UTF check on a Force Stun. I figured if he wasn't dead, he would be far enough down the conditions track to make a fight possible.

Another possibility was to do the above with move object and the multi target force secret, and pancake my master between two rocks to do 10D6/10D6 damage, another destiny point making that about 16D6/16D6.

Yeah, but killing a force user with the force isn't the same as killing a force user when all you have is technology and your wits.

But yeah, bounty hunter/assassin is great for forcing jedi down the condition track, which is one way to beat them. Otherwise, gratuitous overkill or being a hyperspecialised damage dealer tends to help.

[Alejandro]

In my last (and only) campaign, it was the evil campaign, our sith master pissed me off by a force lightning to my face for disturbing him. I rebuked it and did not turn it back on him, but I was still pissed. There was two others, I found out later, that... desired his demise, one of them quite happy to hear about my plans. I was taking the Educated in the Dark Side of the Force destiny for another +5 UTF around level 12. My plan was to, at that point, have a +21 UTF and with Strong with the Force feat and levels, have a good chance at a +8 off a force point, for 29, a destiny point for a natural 20, for a 49 UTF check, plus DM item and granted bonus to a 51 UTF check on a Force Stun. I figured if he wasn't dead, he would be far enough down the conditions track to make a fight possible.

Another possibility was to do the above with move object and the multi target force secret, and pancake my master between two rocks to do 10D6/10D6 damage, another destiny point making that about 16D6/16D6.

If you will look to your left, you will see our primary exhibit on what happens when the GM lets the players get away with whatever they want.

[Alejandro]

Yeah, but killing a force user with the force isn't the same as killing a force user when all you have is technology and your wits.

But yeah, bounty hunter/assassin is great for forcing jedi down the condition track, which is one way to beat them. Otherwise, gratuitous overkill or being a hyperspecialised damage dealer tends to help.

And Bahumat is correct, we are talking about helping an astromech kill these Sith, not another Force user. And it's best to avoid dice rolling entirely. If you want to kill someone or something and need to be sure it works, avoid fairness or letting them fight back.

[Immabozo]

If you will look to your left, you will see our primary exhibit on what happens when the GM lets the players get away with whatever they want.

It wasn't game breaking, it was by the rules totally and completely, even all from the same core book. Force users are just really good at dealing with one, or a few targets, Large numbers kicks their butt.

[The Glyphstone]

It wasn't game breaking, it was by the rules totally and completely, even all from the same core book. Force users are just really good at dealing with one, or a few targets, Large numbers kicks their butt.

These statements are not mutually exclusive, you know.

[Immabozo]

These statements are not mutually exclusive, you know.

That's very true, SWSE is very imbalanced....

[Alejandro]

That's very true, SWSE is very imbalanced....

No, Glyphstone is right. Just because something is possible does not make it ideal or fun. And Saga is actually a very well written and put together d20 system; one of its weak points is the true fact that a player can munchkinize a Jedi, which is why there are several popular house rules for it (like not allowing players to take Skill Focus: Use the Force at 1st level.)

In your case, play your game however you want to; I'm simply commenting that either your GM doesn't care or doesn't realize what you're doing.

[Immabozo]

doesn't realize what you're doing.

You hit the head on the nail there! This was a secret plan. But we are talking level 12 or 13, its not exactly level 1

[Alejandro]

I more meant the GM may not realize it's often not a good idea to let players use the Destiny system as written. It rapidly leads to characters far too strong for the game as written to handle. I let characters earn Destiny Points if they do something truly heroic (dice or no dice) and spend them on the basic things you can spend a Destiny Point on, but I never use the rest of it.

[Immabozo]

We never really actually used the destiny system, so we never saw how broken it was. I think one player use a destiny point once.

[Alejandro]

In my last (and only) campaign, it was the evil campaign, our sith master pissed me off by a force lightning to my face for disturbing him. I rebuked it and did not turn it back on him, but I was still pissed. There was two others, I found out later, that... desired his demise, one of them quite happy to hear about my plans. I was taking the Educated in the Dark Side of the Force destiny for another +5 UTF around level 12. My plan was to, at that point, have a +21 UTF and with Strong with the Force feat and levels, have a good chance at a +8 off a force point, for 29, a destiny point for a natural 20, for a 49 UTF check, plus DM item and granted bonus to a 51 UTF check on a Force Stun. I figured if he wasn't dead, he would be far enough down the conditions track to make a fight possible.

Another possibility was to do the above with move object and the multi target force secret, and pancake my master between two rocks to do 10D6/10D6 damage, another destiny point making that about 16D6/16D6.

So what was this, then?

[Immabozo]

So what was this, then?

A plan for several levels later and the campaign fell apart before I could do that

[Bahumat]

Destiny points are fine if you're using them to fuel Force Unleashed.....

But yes. Like most d20 systems, SWSE is easily breakable if the GM allows it.

So we seem to have exhausted the 'easy' possibilities for killing force users as non-force users. How about the harder ways ie. beating them at their own game (in combat)? Is this feasable under SWSE's current design for force users? I believe it is, but it's entirely dependant on what type of force user you're facing.

A lightsaber focused jedi or sith is a far different beast than a jedi based on his force powers.

Now, if I recall, SWSE is rather unique of d20 systems in that there is no five foot step mechanic- my group only discovered this once I finally took assassin (Which GIVES you that ability). This means getting up in the face of a force primary user means they provoke AOO's from using their force powers. Now, yes, this is counterable, but it's still an option for a character that has no other real options (duelist anyone?)

For a droid, I still think the best option is abusing being a droid. Sabotage, being able to retrain your skills by reprogramming...hell, just being able to change your skill set means you can set yourself up to be able to do whatever you need. (Demolitions? SURE! I have to have mechanics to sabotage their engines? RIGHTO. I need Use Computer to hack their navigation computer? DON'T MIND IF I DO!). Droid characters are expensive to run, and have some heavy limitations, but they also have some hidden abilities that not many others can abuse. Like integrated and hidden weaponry. And poison. and explosives.....

[Alejandro]

True. But, players and GM should plan on and knowingly run a Force Unleashed campaign. If everyone knows what to expect from the start, it's fine. :)

Using a Force power doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity, unless the GM says that using the power 'distracts you or forces you to drop your guard.' Most of the combat Force powers certainly don't. Maybe Farseeing or something like that, but you really shouldn't be doing that in combat.

You can't five foot step, but you can withdraw, as long as the first square of your movement takes you out of all threatened squares by enemies. There are some talents and feats that punish or keep enemies from withdrawing, but otherwise you can do that.

[IdleMuse]

The biggest problem with destiny points is when your players hoard them and blow them all on your bbeg for auto-crits :smallmad:

[Alejandro]

The biggest problem with destiny points is when your players hoard them and blow them all on your bbeg for auto-crits :smallmad:

Give your villains destiny points too. They can spend them to negate a hit. Sure, they don't get to use their destiny point(s) offensively, but they can negate the PCs.

[Nanoblack]

In a previous campaign the gm did just that and it came down to a destiny point-off where everyone was negating everything the BBEG did and he was forced to use his to prevent repeated auto-crits.

[IdleMuse]

Give your villains destiny points too. They can spend them to negate a hit. Sure, they don't get to use their destiny point(s) offensively, but they can negate the PCs.

If every player has five or more saved, I don't really want to have to give my villain 40 destiny points to offset that.. or anywhere near that :smallfrown:

I just don't use destiny points, I don't think the system works for the kind of games I run.

[Immabozo]

At the very least, I like the destinies themselves and the rewards, its kinds like having a big quest.

[Alejandro]

If every player has five or more saved, I don't really want to have to give my villain 40 destiny points to offset that.. or anywhere near that :smallfrown:

I just don't use destiny points, I don't think the system works for the kind of games I run.

Don't hand out five per player per campaign. Way less than that. Only for planned, dramatic moments.

[IdleMuse]

Don't hand out five per player per campaign. Way less than that. Only for planned, dramatic moments.

Well, that also makes sense as a houserule. I should have said Destiny Points as written don't really work, where the players get them every level. And can just save them up. I've also tried a houserule where you can only have one, max. But in general, I've found it's an unecessary subsystem; if I want to give players cool fulfilling-your-destiny rewards, I still can do, I just don't need the bulk of the every-time-you-do-an-action stuff, or the additional super-actions they give characters.

[Mando Knight]

Don't hand out five per player per campaign. Way less than that. Only for planned, dramatic moments.

Like once. Per character, and only if they play their part of it well. The Skywalkers (as in, Luke, Anakin, Leia) might get a few, but they're special because the galaxy pretty much revolves around them.

[Alejandro]

I awarded a Destiny Point to one of my PCs because they pulled off something mindbogglingly awesome that was in character to them and advanced the story in their favor. The PC later spent it to kill a horrible twisted Dark Side B'Omarr monk brain sorcerer in Jabba's palace basement. :D

[Bahumat]

Our GM ran into the same problem on his BBEG sith. He ruled that each character can only use one Destiny Point per encounter, but the BBEG could use as many as he liked. Worked pretty well, since our supply of Destiny points meant we could basically spend a round negating each other, then proceed as normal....unless someone decided to use their destiny point to, say, throw very large objects at the BBEG....

Of course, this set of rules meant our nascent force user players (come on, you don't ALL need to take force sensitivity!) avoided Force Unleashed like the plague as a result, killing two birds with one stone.

[Alejandro]

Destiny points are fine if you're using them to fuel Force Unleashed.....

But yes. Like most d20 systems, SWSE is easily breakable if the GM allows it.

So we seem to have exhausted the 'easy' possibilities for killing force users as non-force users. How about the harder ways ie. beating them at their own game (in combat)? Is this feasable under SWSE's current design for force users? I believe it is, but it's entirely dependant on what type of force user you're facing

We can certainly discuss combat techniques for killing them, sure. This poster in question will have a harder time since his PC is an astromech droid, and that sort of hinders what weapons can be reasonably used, much less the whole stairs issue. :)

[Hyena]

Please, move the discussion of destiny points here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267237)

[Bahumat]

We can certainly discuss combat techniques for killing them, sure. This poster in question will have a harder time since his PC is an astromech droid, and that sort of hinders what weapons can be reasonably used, much less the whole stairs issue. :)

Jetpacks solve everything.

But yeah, I think we've pretty much exhausted what you have available to counter a force user as a astromech. Be sneaky, don't fight fair, screw with their ship, and deliberately be as unpredictable as possible.

[IdleMuse]

A well statted melee build focussed on multi-atttack actions (possibly with triple attack AND dual weapons) can make mincemeat of a 'average' jedi in melee. I mean, the jedi can also specialise in melee, which makes it harder, but still, if you're wielding a phrik weapon you're on the right path.

[Immabozo]

if you're wielding a phrik weapon you're on the right path.

whats a phrik weapon?

[Alejandro]

whats a phrik weapon?

Phrik is an extremely hard to get material that is lightsaber resistant.

[Immabozo]

Phrik is an extremely hard to get material that is lightsaber resistant.

I see. So you can make a sword weapon out of it that can parry lightsabers?

[Hyena]

No, you can't. To parry something you've got to be a jedi - only they have block. Force adepts have primitive block, that lets them block with simple swords.

[IdleMuse]

No, Phrik (or Cortosis Weave) weapons don't let you parry a lightsaber fighter, but unlike many other melee weapons, the lightsaber guy can't just cut your weapon in half...

[Immabozo]

No, Phrik (or Cortosis Weave) weapons don't let you parry a lightsaber fighter, but unlike many other melee weapons, the lightsaber guy can't just cut your weapon in half...

Ah, see, the way my game played, our DM house ruled nerfing lightsabers, cause "lightsabers that do only 2D8 damage are NOT lightsabers. If we are going to nerf lightsabers, which should also naturally be vorporal, we are going to nerf them globally. You cannot use them to cut through doors, like in episode 1. Can't sunder someone's weapon with them." and so on

probably why no one wanted to go melee characters....

[IdleMuse]

When I GM, I usually just stat melee opponents as unarmed fighters :smallbiggrin:

[Alejandro]

Ah, see, the way my game played, our DM house ruled nerfing lightsabers, cause "lightsabers that do only 2D8 damage are NOT lightsabers. If we are going to nerf lightsabers, which should also naturally be vorporal, we are going to nerf them globally. You cannot use them to cut through doors, like in episode 1. Can't sunder someone's weapon with them." and so on

probably why no one wanted to go melee characters....

Um. Your GM wasn't too bright, was he/she? Let's do some math.

A 6th level Jedi, and a 6th level Soldier. The Jedi has a 16 STR, and so does the Soldier. The Jedi has a lightsaber, the Soldier has a blaster rifle.

Jedi: 2d8+6(wielding a lightsaber in both hands, double STR bonus)+3(half character level) = 2d8+9. Average damage, 18.

Soldier: 3d8+3(half character level.) Average damage, 16.5, or 17 if you want to round up.

Jedi wins by one point, and can also ignore DR. The Jedi and Soldier can both boost their damage in various ways, but it will still average out unless one player is better at character design.

[IdleMuse]

Um. Your GM wasn't too bright, was he/she? Let's do some math.

A 6th level Jedi, and a 6th level Soldier. The Jedi has a 16 STR, and so does the Soldier. The Jedi has a lightsaber, the Soldier has a blaster rifle.

Jedi: 2d8+6(wielding a lightsaber in both hands, double STR bonus)+3(half character level) = 2d8+9. Average damage, 18.

Soldier: 3d8+3(half character level.) Average damage, 16.5, or 17 if you want to round up.

Jedi wins by one point, and can also ignore DR. The Jedi and Soldier can both boost their damage in various ways, but it will still average out unless one player is better at character design.

I think what Immabozo was saying was that his GM thought 2d8 was too low for representing what a Lightsaber does, compared to the movies, so he felt no problem in also nerfing the other functions of the lightsaber in line with the percieved nerf that already was in place from the printed rules.

[Alejandro]

I think what Immabozo was saying was that his GM thought 2d8 was too low for representing what a Lightsaber does, compared to the movies, so he felt no problem in also nerfing the other functions of the lightsaber in line with the percieved nerf that already was in place from the printed rules.

Probably so, but perceiving a nerf is a mistake, as the lightsaber actually does slightly more damage. :) Everything else a lightsaber does in the movies is represented by either game design (cut through a door by ignoring DR) or by character design (cut off limbs, Severing Strike)

[IdleMuse]

Probably so, but perceiving a nerf is a mistake, as the lightsaber actually does slightly more damage. :) Everything else a lightsaber does in the movies is represented by either game design (cut through a door by ignoring DR) or by character design (cut off limbs, Severing Strike)

Oh, I agree with you, I was just interpreting Immabozo. Severing Strike is another reason I like taking Force Regimens; there's one that grants that, too. All for the low low price of a single feat, and a good UtF check.

[Alejandro]

So be it. Jedi.

[Immabozo]

Oh, I agree with you, I was just interpreting Immabozo. Severing Strike is another reason I like taking Force Regimens; there's one that grants that, too. All for the low low price of a single feat, and a good UtF check.

You are very right, and I thought his nerfing them across the board was stupid and I fought it tooth and nail.

[Alejandro]

Get a better GM, is my advice.

[Immabozo]

I agree. Played with him a few times and I am not a fan of how he plays.