Power attack in Epic Levels

[Lhurgyof]

How exactly does Power Attack scale with Epic-Level characters? I'm sure there's no exact ruling on this, but I was wondering what most of you playgrounders would rule on using Power Attack as an epic level character.

[Flickerdart]

It doesn't. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm#epicAttackBonus) "...the character’s base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th."

[Lhurgyof]

It doesn't. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm#epicAttackBonus) "...the character’s base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th."

I know that's the official ruling on it. (Even if a lot of epic NPC's in books break that rule with their 30+ BAB)
I was just wondering what most people would rule for people, since there is no "Epic Power Attack" feat.

[limejuicepowder]

Does power attack really need a boost to work at epic levels? I kind of assumed that damage was the one thing mundanes don't need help doing, even at epic level (I've never seen even an epic monster with enough HP to get blasted by an ubercharger).

[Elderand]

I think it should scale

From the SRD if you read just a little farther from the link provided by Flickerdart


Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus (except for gaining additional attacks), use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus.

So I think it would be reasonable to say that you can use the epic bonus with power attack just like you use your base attack bonus

[Lhurgyof]

Does power attack really need a boost to work at epic levels? I kind of assumed that damage was the one thing mundanes don't need help doing, even at epic level (I've never seen even an epic monster with enough HP to get blasted by an ubercharger).

Well, my epic character from a Dark Sun campaign needs to retrain a few feats, and I just realized that as a 60th level character, his power attack is still just -15 to hit/+15 to damage.

The Character (http://m1riotworldhistory.wikispaces.com/lhurgyof)

[NoldorForce]

It scales with the epic attack bonus as well.

...Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus (except for gaining additional attacks), use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus.

On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus.

[Lhurgyof]

It scales with the epic attack bonus as well.

Dang, I figured RAW would say no.

I have a question then, why do some Epic NPCs' stat blocks include BAB above +20?

[limejuicepowder]

Well, my epic character from a Dark Sun campaign needs to retrain a few feats, and I just realized that as a 60th level character, his power attack is still just -15 to hit/+15 to damage.

The Character (http://m1riotworldhistory.wikispaces.com/lhurgyof)

Damn

What the heck can you even fight? And how do you ever keep all of those abilities and options straight?

[Lhurgyof]

Damn

What the heck can you even fight? And how do you ever keep all of those abilities and options straight?

At level 40-60 it's mostly Role Playing and fighting epic NPC's that break the rules (literally), it mostly requires thought to beat them and numbers don't particularly matter.

As for the abilities and options, when you play a character for over a year, you start to remember what you can do. :smalltongue:

I kind of based his epic prestige class on old kung fu movies and doing ridiculous stuff like that.

[Kazyan]

I have a question then, why do some Epic NPCs' stat blocks include BAB above +20?

At a guess, it's more convenient to bundle the Epic Attack Bonus and Base Attack Bonus into one line. The distinction is a fine one, whenever it would be relevant.

[Lhurgyof]

At a guess, it's more convenient to bundle the Epic Attack Bonus and Base Attack Bonus into one line. The distinction is a fine one, whenever it would be relevant.

Well, the reason that they're different is so you don't get multiple attacks but I've seen a character in Heroes of Horror that says "F that", and has like a +35 base attack bonus, complete with the extra attacks that brings.

Because if it was eratta'd to do that, then my character would need to be updated.

[Snowbluff]

How about using Divine Power? You could get your epic attack bonus and more BaB for maximum hurt!

[Slipperychicken]

Well, my epic character from a Dark Sun campaign needs to retrain a few feats, and I just realized that as a 60th level character, his power attack is still just -15 to hit/+15 to damage.

The Character (http://m1riotworldhistory.wikispaces.com/lhurgyof)

He should have an Epic Attack Bonus of roughly +20, in addition to his Monk BAB of +15. For Power Attack, his BAB should be treated as +35. If you feel your damage isn't big enough, you should get some way to Pounce or otherwise Full Attack on the move, then apply feats like Leap Attack or Shock Trooper. At least then you could get a little more out of your Power Attack. Or see if you can get the Almighty Gods to treat your fists as two-handed weapons for the purposes of PA.

I'd be impressed if you managed to get through one combat in a session, having to track all those rolls, numbers, and other abilities.

[Lhurgyof]

How about using Divine Power? You could get your epic attack bonus and more BaB for maximum hurt!

Unfortunately, Divine Power is a self-only spell and my character is a Monk/Psion.

[Snowbluff]

Unfortunately, Divine Power is a self-only spell and my character is a Monk/Psion.

Self-Only: Ha, that's never stopped me! :smallbiggrin:

Psion: Crap. :smalltongue:

Monk: :smallannoyed:

[Lhurgyof]

He should have an Epic Attack Bonus of roughly +20, in addition to his Monk BAB of +15. For Power Attack, his BAB should be treated as +35. If you feel your damage isn't big enough, you should get some way to Pounce or otherwise Full Attack on the move, then apply feats like Leap Attack or Shock Trooper. At least then you could get a little more out of your Power Attack. Or see if you can get the Almighty Gods to treat your fists as two-handed weapons for the purposes of PA.

I'd be impressed if you managed to get through one combat in a session, having to track all those rolls, numbers, and other abilities.

I already have a pounce ability, my jump-kick is considered a line attack (I roll and attack roll and damage roll and deal it to everyone in the line), I deal x6 damage at the end of a charge, etc. etc.

I deal about 907 damage on the average attack, not including all the special abilities tacked on to my unarmed strike. And with a full attack, that means around 9,070 damage on average. If I hit, that is. And then I can knock them back like 200 feet and make them land prone.



Self-Only: Ha, that's never stopped me! :smallbiggrin:

Psion: Crap. :smalltongue:

Monk: :smallannoyed:

It's a Dark Sun game. Monks are pretty great when everyone has sticks for weapons and bones for armor. :smalltongue:

[gooddragon1]

Unfortunately, Divine Power is a self-only spell and my character is a Monk/Psion.

Make a custom magic item of it that is continuous duration.

4th lvl
7th lvl caster
2000 gp continuous
*4 /round duration
224000 gp (epic costing but you're in epic situations).

[Hirax]

Their are creatures with BAB higher than 20 because racial hit die can increase BAB beyond 20 according to the ELH. The same sidebar also mentions that you don't get more than 4 iterative attacks from BAB, regardless of how high it is.

[Lhurgyof]

Their are creatures with BAB higher than 20 because racial hit die can increase BAB beyond 20 according to the ELH. The same sidebar also mentions that you don't get more than 4 iterative attacks from BAB, regardless of how high it is.

Ah, well then this guy must only cheat a little bit. I forget his name, he's like a moose-person in Heroes of Horror.

Gooddragon: I have Vow of Poverty and Epic Vow of Poverty.

[Slipperychicken]

Unfortunately, Divine Power is a self-only spell and my character is a Monk/Psion.

Then get it on an item (like your fists? Anything you can sneak past Vow of Poverty), continuously, using the custom item rules. Also, Divine Power sets your BAB to character level, but doesn't eliminate your Epic Attack bonus, so it's netting you +45 BAB, +6 Str, and some temp hp. In sum, you're getting +48 to hit, +3 damage, and the ability to PA like a boss. For damage, I noticed you can full attack on charges, so Leap Attack will double your PA returns.

Personally, I'd recommend a dip into Crusader or Warblade for next level. Your initiator level is 30 so you can grab any maneuver and stance you want, I'm saying Aura of Perfect Order (treat one d20 roll as 11 each round) specifically, and that would probably be better for your hit rate. Natural 1s are probably the biggest factor in whether you hit or not, so avoiding them is pretty nice.


Just for massive-skill funsies, check out the Epic Skills (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm), where your guy has HUUUGE modifiers. Your character can walk on clouds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#balance) on a roll of 3. Even if he fails (not Taking 10 for some reason), it doesn't matter because he ignores falling damage on a natural 1. Just something to do in your Monk's spare time (i.e. when he's not in "hurr durr super serious save the world" mode).

[Kazyan]

And with a full attack, that means around 9,070 damage on average.

Not going to say it, not going to say it, not going to say it...

[Ravens_cry]

Not going to say it, not going to say it, not going to say it...
Well, it's more than 1006 at least.:smalltongue:

[Snowbluff]

Then get it on an item (like your fists? Anything you can sneak past Vow of Poverty), continuously, using the custom item rules. Also, Divine Power sets your BAB to character level, but doesn't eliminate your Epic Attack bonus, so it's netting you +45 BAB, +6 Str, and some temp hp. In sum, you're getting +48 to hit, +3 damage, and the ability to PA like a boss. For damage, I noticed you can full attack on charges, so Leap Attack will double your PA returns.

Yeah, Divine Power! Cleric7 is best Melee! I'd offer an item that could gwt around VoP, but...



Gooddragon: I have Vow of Poverty and Epic Vow of Poverty.

Epic VoP is such epic suck that it eliminates any possible tricks.


Personally, I'd recommend a dip into Crusader or Warblade for next level. Your initiator level is 30 so you can grab any maneuver and stance you want, I'm saying Aura of Perfect Order (treat one d20 roll as 11 each round) specifically, and that would probably be better for your hit rate. Natural 1s are probably the biggest factor in whether you hit or not, so avoiding them is pretty nice.


Can I vote in some RKV? It'll fix the Stance Progression (Which isn't needed, but w/e), and you can get Divine Power for the bonuses the SlipperyChicken and I like.

Also, why Monk? Why not some Tashalatora?

[Kazyan]

As you are an epic psion, ask if you can use a Bend Reality to duplicate Divine Power and then make it permanent with Reality Revision. This is stretching Reality Revision outside of the 'safe' effects, as you cannot Permanency a Divine Power, so YMMV. If the DM figures it out, you bet it's not going to work.

Also, it's more reasonable for Divine Power to overwrite your BAB+EAB, not just your BAB. You don't get as many pluses, but it makes more sense and the DM is less likely to hit you with the ELH.

[ericgrau]

Not going to say it, not going to say it, not going to say it...

Vegeta, what does the scouter say about his power attack at epic level?

[Snowbluff]

As you are an epic psion, ask if you can use a Bend Reality to duplicate Divine Power and then make it permanent with Reality Revision. This is stretching Reality Revision outside of the 'safe' effects, as you cannot Permanency a Divine Power, so YMMV. If the DM figures it out, you bet it's not going to work.

Also, it's more reasonable for Divine Power to overwrite your BAB+EAB, not just your BAB. You don't get as many pluses, but it makes more sense and the DM is less likely to hit you with the ELH.

Wait,s you'll let the power permanency DP, which is RAW and RAI iffy, but you don't think DP should work as written, which is ambiguous in terms of RAI? (Assuming exteremly large values of 2 and that whoever wrote the spell isn't crazy lol)


Vegeta, what does the scouter say about his power attack at epic level?

Eric, No. Stop.

[Kazyan]

Wait,s you'll let the power permanency DP, which is RAW and RAI iffy, but you don't think DP should work as written, which is ambiguous in terms of RAI? (Assuming exteremly large values of 2 and that whoever wrote the spell isn't crazy lol)


Of course, because I'm not talking about the RAW. I'm saying "Ask your DM".

[Lhurgyof]

Well, the big problem is the DM moved away for this game, and said I could DM the players now. (He had to move for certain reasons, and since he felt I understood the way the world worked the most he told me all I needed to know about the Dark Sun world he created), so it's really up to me.

And, I can't gain levels anymore. The cap for Dark Sun characters is 60 (20 class, 20 psion, then 20 of an epic prestige class).

Although Initiator levels would be cool, I like my "Warrior of the Sun" prestige better. Which reminds me, I need to change one of the class abilities because it's redundant.

My character's abilities are based on old-school kung fu movies- his attacks are silly and powerful (like kung fu hustle, if anyone's seen it), and he focuses on jump kicks.

For example, so far I jump-kick a line attack, which I can take turns during by "kicking off" people or objects, then I pummel someone and knock them back 5 feet each attack (and take a free 5-foot step), then I kick them back 200 feet and knock them prone.

But one of my abilities I just realized is redundant (the one where I push people back 20 feet for my attack), what do you think is a good sun-themed ability?

My current abilities are:
Inexorable Progress of Sunrise- Any creature struck by Seefi Lüs' unarmed strike is pushed back 5 feet, and Seefi Lüs may take a 5 foot step to continue attacking.
Merciless Onslaught of the Sun (x5)- For the first 6 rounds of combat, Seefi Lüs may take a full attack after a charge.
Sun Strike (Silt Bane, Dehydrating, Blinding, Confusing, Exhausting)- Seefi Lüs' unarmed strikes have these qualities.
Deadly Ray- Seefi Lüs' jump attack is considered a line attack, with range equal to the distance he jumps.
Penetrating Beam of the Sun- Seefi lüs may decide upon striking a foe weather or not to use this ability. Any foe subject to this is sent flying back 200 feet and is prone.
Part the Veil- Any creature subject to Seefi Lüs' line attack is pushed back 20 ft. and is prone.
Reverberating Beam- Seefi Lüs may take up to a 90 degree turn during a charge by "kicking off" from an object or creature.
Reflective Essence- If any creature fails to affect Seefi Lüs with a spell or power due to his Spell/Psionic resistance, it is reflected back at the manifester/caster.

The redundant one is "Part the Veil".

Also, on epic VoP: I always gave up all of my items for the party in Dark Sun; I sacrificed my headband of +6 str/dex/wis for a spell the party needed, and I've given up my bracers of armor +20 for the party and other things so the DM said I could have the feat. Epic VoP gives you a Divine Rank of 0 which gives some REAAAAALLY nice abilities. And I know epic magic items can be made for most of the stuff I have, but I can't just go out and buy epic magic items, and I don't have the resources to just acquire them.

[Zack Reever]

How about using Divine Power? You could get your epic attack bonus and more BaB for maximum hurt!

Divine Power doesn't progress your Bab past 20th lvl(+20), the errata was in the black special edition 3.5 books. I know because I have them. And this makes sense when considering the epic rules on bab and save progressions.