Help with Leadership [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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Myrddin0001

2012-12-20, 02:50 PM

ok so I understand basically how Leadership works. But a few things I dont get. True or false, Followers are always NPC classes, if they have PC lass levels they count as 3 levels higher in terms of limit of followers? Can you have more than one Cohort? Does that Cohort(s) always have an NPC class or can it have a PC class (also at a +3 to it's limit?)? Also I am greatly interested in the Thrallherd psionic PrC so these questions apply to those rules too.

Myrddin0001

2012-12-20, 02:52 PM

also, does the player control the said followers and cohorts or does the DM?

Cranthis

2012-12-20, 02:58 PM

Nothing in the leadership feat restricts followers or cohorts to npc classes. As for control, generally I find it best that the DM controls them out of combat, but in combat you should do it.

Yora

2012-12-20, 02:59 PM

There was a limitation to NPC classes in 3.0, but under the 3.5e rules, followers and cohort can be of any class.

Usually one can only have a single cohort, but I think there might be some feats in obscure books that allow for a second cohort.

If I remember correctly, the cohort is mostly under the control of the player like an animal companion, but followers are NPCs controlled by the DM.

Ranting Fool

2012-12-20, 03:01 PM

I'm a tad confused about this myself.

Can Followers be any class?
E.g Wizard, Duskblade ect

Or just NPC Class ones?
Warrior.
Adapt.
Commoner.
Expert.

(The old 3.0 version of the DMG said only, Warrior, Commoner or Expert)

Help I'm tired and my brain hurts :smallbiggrin:

Cranthis

2012-12-20, 03:03 PM

Followers can be any class.

Myrddin0001

2012-12-20, 03:16 PM

Thanks! this actually helps a lot!

TypoNinja

2012-12-20, 03:45 PM

Dragon Cohort comes to mind, Its from the Draconomicon, and has to be a dragon, but its cohort number two.

Extra Cohort is I think from a dragon mag, At least I could have sworn there was a feat that did that, but some quick googleing failed to turn up mention of it, so maybe I'm crazy?

Namfuak

2012-12-20, 04:02 PM

Your cohort can also take leadership, and their cohort, and so on, although of course the same level restrictions apply, so eventually one will be lower than level 6.

TypoNinja

2012-12-21, 02:09 AM

Your cohort can also take leadership, and their cohort, and so on, although of course the same level restrictions apply, so eventually one will be lower than level 6.

If your DM will let you chain leadership its about the only time Improved Cohort is worth taking.

ShadowFireLance

2012-12-21, 02:12 AM

If your DM will let you chain leadership its about the only time Improved Cohort is worth taking.

And by the wording of Draconic Cohort, I personally think it replaces it.
Nah, Improved Cohort is worth taking along with Close Cohort.
Chain, Repeat, Chain, Repeat.
(Dodge DMG, PH, MM, MM2, MM3)
Army of 10th level's anyone?

VGLordR2

2012-12-21, 02:44 AM

And by the wording of Draconic Cohort, I personally think it replaces it.
Nah, Improved Cohort is worth taking along with Close Cohort.
Chain, Repeat, Chain, Repeat.
(Dodge DMG, PH, MM, MM2, MM3)
Army of 10th level's anyone?

If I remember correctly, the wording of the two feats would prevent them from stacking. They both say something to the effect of "your cohort can be up to one level lower than you", not "your cohort can be one level higher than normal". Which is kind of funny, because this essentially means that both feats are exactly the same.

Socratov

2012-12-21, 03:05 AM

Usually one can only have a single cohort, but I think there might be some feats in obscure books that allow for a second cohort.

well, there is a race (I think it's in Dragon Compendium) that basically is a 1 character divided in twins (sort of twins with some sort of telepathic mindlink), it could allow you to go for 2 cohorts (+, they only take experience for 1 member of the party) AFB for now So I can't recall what it's called

ShadowFireLance

2012-12-21, 03:07 AM

well, there is a race (I think it's in Dragon Compendium) that basically is a 1 character divided in twins (sort of twins with some sort of telepathic mindlink), it could allow you to go for 2 cohorts (+, they only take experience for 1 member of the party) AFB for now So I can't recall what it's called

Davti.
(Dodges FF and DMG)

Alleran

2012-12-21, 06:53 AM

Davti.
(Dodges FF and DMG)
Dvati, I think they're called.

Erik Vale

2012-12-21, 09:13 AM

*Suscribed for future use whilst also dodging*

Also, ask your DM how Leadership and Undead leadership interact, a no or 2 separate counts?

*Dodges a box of minitures*

Edit:
*Realises Additional Cohort may also be applied to Undead leadership, and possibly to Draconic Cohort*
*Notices huge pileup of penalties to leadership Score*

Also, there is Wild Cohort, but it is more along the lines of an animal companion. A crapy animal companion. (Also Dragon Mag).

Wookie-ranger

2012-12-21, 10:45 AM

The Thrallherd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/thrallherd.htm) get a second "cohort" at level 10.

Taking a level in Thrallherd seams to me better then taking the leadership feat.
You get all the benefits and you don't have to worry about mistreating/killing your thrall(s) and believers. They simply comeback tomorrow. From where? Thin air as far as the rules go; they simply appear after 24 hours.
You can use them as cannon fodder, mine clearing, pack mules, food supply, operation human shield (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyhHzzaTV2M), Spell components (BoVD), and so on.
Did I mention that this is a great class for an evil campaign? :smallbiggrin:

I give this class a lot of times to my BBEG; If I can fit it in the build. to justify why he has so many minions that seam to do what ever he says.

Edit:
A question for everyone: what are your favorite/most useful/most creative uses of leadership/undead leadership/thrallherd?

Ranting Fool

2012-12-21, 06:20 PM

A thrallherd cannot take the Leadership feat; if the character already has it, the feat is lost and replaced by this ability; those who were previously cohorts and followers go their separate ways, and those who are more mentally pliable show up later to take up roles as thralls and believers. A thrallherd’s first thrall and believers arrive within 24 hours of her entry into this class; likewise, lost thralls and believers are replaced within 24 hours.

Does sound like an evil class :smallbiggrin:

Acanous

2012-12-21, 06:34 PM

Dragon cohort is a second Cohort. Undead Leadership is supposed to be instead of regular leadership, but if you can swing it, great.
Extra Cohort is Dragon Mag, and allowsfor an additional cohort at -2 levels from your origional Cohort.

COHORTS CANNOT TAKE LEADERSHIP This is spelled out in the DMG, under Leadership. How is it that I have to restate this in every leadership thread? Leadership does not chain >.<

Anyhow, assuming you're allowed Extra Cohort, and Undead leadership stacks instead of replaces, you can build like so:

Wizard (Enchanter) 1, sacrifice familiar for a cohort as per PHB2.
Leadership at 6.
Regular build into Thrallherd from there, gain an additional Cohort at Thrallherd 10.
Take Extra Cohort. Take Draconic Cohort, take Undead Leadership. You now have 5 Cohorts.

Darius Kane

2012-12-21, 06:59 PM

COHORTS CANNOT TAKE LEADERSHIP This is spelled out in the DMG, under Leadership. How is it that I have to restate this in every leadership thread? Leadership does not chain >.<
I don't see anything like that. Page and quote, please?
Also, Power of Fearun specifically talks about followers having their own followers and has rules concerning it, so there is a precedent that it's possible and allowed.

Acanous

2012-12-21, 07:02 PM

AFB at the moment. The relevant quote says something along the lines of "Cohorts and followers cannot take leadership. If they were leaders, they would not be content to be followers"

Darius Kane

2012-12-21, 07:19 PM

I found only this on page 104: "Cohorts are people who take on a subservient role. Cohorts are not leaders. They might voice an opinion now and again, but for the most part they do as they're told."
If this is what you're talking about then sorry, but it's not spelled out, it's just a piece of fluff which is talking about the cohorts position in the group. Nowhere (that I could find) did DMG say "Cohorts and followers can't take Leadership". As I was saying, there's precedent in Power of Fearun, also DMG says that adventuring NPCs can have Leadership as well. Cohorts are kinda adventuring NPCs.

Spuddles

2012-12-21, 07:22 PM

Your cohort can also take leadership, and their cohort, and so on, although of course the same level restrictions apply, so eventually one will be lower than level 6.

If you really want to get crazy with it, be a thrallherd with thrallherd thralls. Also have all characters have psicrystals with leadership and all those cohorts are thrallherds with psicrystals and thrallherd thralls....

Fates

2012-12-21, 07:24 PM

This? This I why I don't let my players take leadership.

Darius Kane

2012-12-21, 07:36 PM

This? This I why I don't let my players take leadership.
Why? The DM is creating cohorts and followers, so if you don't give them Leadership then there's no Leadership chain.

Morph Bark

2012-12-21, 07:49 PM

Acanous

2012-12-21, 07:55 PM

Sgt. Cookie

2012-12-21, 07:56 PM

Your cohort can also take leadership, and their cohort, and so on, although of course the same level restrictions apply, so eventually one will be lower than level 6.

The Forgotten Template lets your lower-than-level-6 cohorts also have cohorts, all the way down to ECL 3, where his cohort would be level 1.

Darius Kane

2012-12-21, 08:14 PM

Isn't that a 3.0 book?
Nope.

Either way, it's setting-specific.
Irrelevant. Even though the book is setting specific, the rules aren't and can be used in any other game. The book clearly shows that it is allowed to give cohorts and followers Leadership.

TypoNinja

2012-12-21, 08:35 PM

I don't see anything like that. Page and quote, please?
Also, Power of Fearun specifically talks about followers having their own followers and has rules concerning it, so there is a precedent that it's possible and allowed.

Again, its a fluff thing.

PoF focuses on ruling kingdoms, guilds, settlements, that kind of thing. In the context of a King, his Dukes, the Barons and Counts, these are all people who would have leadership but also reasonably owe fealty to someone else without losing standing for being someones subordinate.

Probably why Leadership is an ask your DM thing, there are judgement calls in its application. A Duke is an impressive enough personage to still attract followers even though he owes allegiance to someone else. Is your PC?

Erik Vale

2012-12-21, 08:42 PM

Maybe. However, more relevant to this case the question is, is your PC's follower?

Wookie-ranger

2012-12-21, 08:54 PM

Why? The DM is creating cohorts and followers, so if you don't give them Leadership then there's no Leadership chain.

That's why you are a Thralherd. You can just.... remove your cohort and whit 24h until you get a good one. :smallbiggrin:

Joke aside. I read in another thread about a method were the DM makes up a few Char sheets and backgrounds and then the PC "interviews" them. Basically, the PC can ask 10-20 questions to to all potential cohort candidates and the DM answers in-character. (this works best if the questions are predefined, and the same for everyone)
After the PC decides who he wants to 'hire' THEN he will see the Char sheet for the first time.

I have not tried this. I have never had a problem with leadership in my games, as DM or PC. This sounds reasonable, but very time intensive, and best done away from the table and between sessions.

The "followers are not leaders" thing seems clear to me that they can't have the feat.
Bold mine.

As you said yourself. This is RAI and not RAW. It is a very reasonable assumption, but it is not spelled out.
This can be interpreted in different ways, too. Such as that the Cohort will not tell you what to do, unless asked for opinion; or that the PCs can control them in combat (and not the DM); or it could be a fluff explanation why they want to become followers in the first place.

IRL, every organization is build on some for of hierarchy. One person can only do so much and it is nearly always better to delegate the it is to do it yourself.
After an organization has reached a sufficient size manager become the managers of managers. The CEO will not go to a warehouse an tell them how to do their job; a General will not visit FOBs very often (if ever) to see how the fight it going.
It actually makes a lot of scene to have a chain of command.

Also most people tend to forget very often:
YOU have to feed, cloth and shelter ALL of your cohort(s) and followers. If you have a leadership score of 25 (the max) you have a total of 164 mouths to feed! Even if you only pay for Poor lodging and poor meals (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#foodDrinkAndLodging) it is 3sp per person, or about 50gp. That is 350gp per week or 500gp per ten-day.
With those accommodations it is only reasonable to lower your leadership score by a whole lot.
Down time is a whole more expensive all of a sudden.
If you get Good rooms and meals this jumps up to about 575gp a day! or 4018 per week.
I am not even talking about the logistics of moving a caravan through the country side that is bigger then most towns you come to. You would need carts and horses, equipment, tents, etc. and most places would not have enough rooms, and may run out of food pretty fast.
If you leave them somewhere behind you will still need to pay for their expenses, or you would need to have your own base of operations of sufficient size. which a mid to high level PC has anyway, but now it needs to be a whole lot bigger.
And if you have a Castle that big then having that many people on staff is normal and the DM is being a bit of an A** by making you take a feat for something that is normal for a person of your standing (lord of a castle)

Namfuak

2012-12-21, 08:56 PM

This? This I why I don't let my players take leadership.

Note that when I suggested putting leadership on a cohort, it was with the assumption no one would ever actually do that and that they really need a remedial class on being part of a group if they did. Unless it was a 1-player group or a silly campaign, I guess.

Darius Kane

2012-12-21, 09:01 PM

I'm just gonna point out to you, Wookie, that Leadership allows you to recruit as many followers as the table says. That means you can have that much, but you don't actually have to.

Erik Vale

2012-12-21, 09:07 PM

Also, your applying real life to Dnd. In reality people have paid hirelings, not followers. I mean, I don't think real life has many high level experts so they can run organisations running into the high thousands.

Fates

2012-12-22, 10:43 AM

Why? The DM is creating cohorts and followers, so if you don't give them Leadership then there's no Leadership chain.

Meh, I was a bit brief there. I don't allow it in most of my campaigns for a number of reasons. That's just one of the biggest ones. It's already the most powerful feat in the game- I only allow it if the campaign is particularly roleplaying-based, so the players have less opportunities to abuse the feat.

Wookie-ranger

2012-12-22, 11:45 AM

I'm just gonna point out to you, Wookie, that Leadership allows you to recruit as many followers as the table says. That means you can have that much, but you don't actually have to.

yeah, agreed.
It was just to point out that leadership is not necessarily meant to be maxed (in number of people). Along the lines of Chain-leadership cheese to control more people then a not-so-small country.

TypoNinja

2012-12-22, 05:09 PM

yeah, agreed.
It was just to point out that leadership is not necessarily meant to be maxed (in number of people). Along the lines of Chain-leadership cheese to control more people then a not-so-small country.

Funny you should mention that because the only times we've ever used leadership in games I've been in, its been as a part of nation building. We found the establishing a colony/frontier leader rules in Power of Fearun to be exactly what we wanted. Your followers are not an army, they are settlers. Your cohort doesn't typically join you in battle, they manage your settlement while you are out doing adventurer things.

I've got a colony of 4000 kobolds set up in the mountains :D