Can a cleric learn a druid spell?

[Deca4531]

could a cleric study a scroll or something to learn a druid spell? if i remember right wizards can add to spells known that way. im building a Divine persistent spell cleric and i want access to Sirine's Grace (SpC p191) but its a bard 4/ druid 5 spell. could a cleric learn it somehow?

[BowStreetRunner]

Not under normal circumstances. A cleric's spell list is limited to normal cleric spells plus his domain spells. The most common way to expand this list is with additional domain from prestige classes, but if it is not a domain spell it probably can't be learned.

The archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) (from Heroes of Horror) is the divine spell-casting class that mirrors the wizard's ability to learn new spells.

Edit: I should probably mention that the Extra Spell feat from Complete Arcane may allow what you are talking about, but I have known DMs to rule that it doesn't give access to spells not on your class spell list.

[Curmudgeon]

No, neither Clerics nor Wizards can learn spells not on their class lists. What they can do is independent spell research to add a single spell to their own individual spell list, with the DM deciding how much effort is involved and what adjustments to the spell (usually higher level) are required. Or the DM can simply say "no". Some things, like healing spells for Wizards, are ruled out as categorically unlearnable in D&D.

[Deca4531]

Not under normal circumstances. A cleric's spell list is limited to normal cleric spells plus his domain spells. The most common way to expand this list is with additional domain from prestige classes, but if it is not a domain spell it probably can't be learned.

The archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) (from Heroes of Horror) is the divine spell-casting class that mirrors the wizard's ability to learn new spells.

Edit: I should probably mention that the Extra Spell feat from Complete Arcane may allow what you are talking about, but I have known DMs to rule that it doesn't give access to spells not on your class spell list.

hmm, the archivist is an interesting class for sure, but lacks the use of turn undead i would need for divine meta magic, but i know a PrC or 2 that would give it to me (sacred exorcist for one).

im gonna run that feat past my DM to see what he thinks. it is a divine spell after all, i would allow it. thanks for the help.

[TaiLiu]

The Skypledged Prestige Class (From Races of the Wild) has a 'spellpool' of sorts that allows one to cast druid or cleric spells.

[docnessuno]

The extra spell feat was clarified/errataed, and doesn't grant you spell outside of your class list.

The archivist is probably the best option for achieving your goal, It's also probably the strongest divine caster class around. If you are worried from MAD (Archivist casting is based both on Int and Wis), th eAcademic priest feat will fix it.

Also an archivist can gain access to many spell at lower level than normal, by picking them from the spell lists of different divine casters, some highlights:

Bard (divine bard UA variant)
Paladin
Adept
Cleric
Druid
Shujenja
All domains
Ranger
Healer
Limited-list divine PRCs (IE: Emissary of Barachiel, Nenytar Hunter, Consecrated Harrier, Disciple of Thrym, Blighter)

[candycorn]

A cleric could use Miracle to gain the benefits of a Druid only spell (level 7 or lower), or Divine Insight or Guidance of the Avatar + UMD a scroll of Sirine's Grace.

Scrolls at CL 9 would be a DC 29 check to activate the scroll. With 2 ranks of UMD, a +6 Charisma (reasonable, considering you're attempting DMM Persist and using Sirine's Grace), and Guidance of the Avatar, you've got a +28 check, which is enough to successfully activate on a roll of 1.

[kabreras]

The extra spell feat was clarified/errataed, and doesn't grant you spell outside of your class list.

If you did find an errata i think a lot of people including myself would be happy to read it...
Never found or saw one on my side that considering the debates about this feat everytimes its mentioned i m not the only one

[docnessuno]

If you did find an errata i think a lot of people including myself would be happy to read it...
Never found or saw one on my side that considering the debates about this feat everytimes its mentioned i m not the only one

I think the original WotC FAQ is no longer avaiable, but you can find the following quote all around the net:


Can the warmage (Complete Arcane) benefit from the Extra Spell feat?

No. Extra Spell lets you add one spell to your list of spells known, but the spell must be taken from your class spell list. Since the warmage already knows all the spells on his class spell list, this feat has no effect.

Also allowing the feat to expand a spell list raises some very dubious RAW questions.

[BowStreetRunner]

I think the original WotC FAQ is no longer avaiable, but you can find the following quote all around the net:

The Official D&D Game Rule FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) is still available and whaddya know, the v.3.5 Main D&D FAQ does in fact include this ruling.

[Answerer]

The extra spell feat was clarified/errataed, and doesn't grant you spell outside of your class list.
False. It was erroneously stated by the Sage to be limited in that fashion. The Sage does not have authority to change the rules, and the rules indicate no such limitation.

[Curmudgeon]

False. It was erroneously stated by the Sage to be limited in that fashion.
Your logic has a flaw in it.

The Sage does not have authority to change the rules,
Totally correct so far.

and the rules indicate no such limitation.
That's where you're off course.
You learn one additional spell at any level up to one lower than the highest level of spell you can currently cast.
If you're a Cleric, what's "the highest level of spell you can currently cast" for a Druid spell? For the most part, the answer is "not a number". That is, there's no formula to assign what the Cleric spell level is for a random Druid spell. For select spells there happens to be a numeric answer across class lines. Example: Cure Serious Wounds is a Druid level 4 spell, but becomes a level 3 spell for a Cleric. For Regenerate, that's a Druid 9 spell but a Cleric 7 spell. But something like Summon Nature's Ally II simply doesn't have a numeric value as a Cleric spell; without that, there's no way to compute "one lower" with respect to this unknown number.

So, the rules do indicate a limitation to spells which your class is able to cast, simply by involving an arithmetic formula for which only spells on your class list have known numbers.

[BowStreetRunner]

So, the rules do indicate a limitation to spells which your class is able to cast, simply by involving an arithmetic formula for which only spells on your class list have known numbers.

That makes a great deal of sense. Especially when you consider some of the prestige classes with their very different spell levels.

[Psyren]

To build on Curmudgeon's answer - notice that for psionics, Expanded Knowledge has to explicitly allow you to branch outside your own list. Extra Spell does not include this provision, resulting in the correct "null set" calculation in his post.

Extra Spell could work for a multi-list class like an Archivist though - say, to learn a spell he's having difficulty tracking down via scroll. He could then use the Erudite trick of scribing the spell to a scroll, retraining the feat into a different spell (via PHB2 rules, Miracle into Limited Wish etc.), learning the first spell from the scroll normally, and repeating the process until he had all the hard-to-find spells he could want.

[Answerer]

That's where you're off course.
If you're a Cleric, what's "the highest level of spell you can currently cast" for a Druid spell?
That's a cute addition you're putting into the rules that doesn't exist anywhere within them.

[docnessuno]

That's a cute addition you're putting into the rules that doesn't exist anywhere within them.


The next line of a spell description gives the spell’s level, a number between 0 and 9 that defines the spell’s relative power. This number is preceded by an abbreviation for the class whose members can cast the spell.
Even if Extra spell adds spells from other class lists as spells know, i cannot see nowhere in the feat that it does add it to your spell list (while other features intended to do that explicitly mention it, see for example the Warmage Advanced learning)

This means that the spell you know, if it's from a different class list, has NO spell level, so you have no slots you can use to cast / memorize it.

This is further reinforced for divine casters by the following statement:


a character’s spell selection is limited to the spells on the list for his or her class. [...] Each domain gives him access to a domain spell at each spell level from 1st to 9th

[Answerer]

Your first quote from the SRD states plainly that a spell has a number, called the spell's level. This number, in the line in their entry, is preceded by the class for which the spell is that level. That is, the class is not a part of the spell's level.

Which is to say, the spell's level is not "Druid 3," it's "3."

Extra Spell only lists, as a restriction, that the spell be of the same level as one you can cast. It does not specify that it must be a spell you could otherwise learn. It says nothing about spell lists. And it has to, because there is no precedent for learning a spell through a feat. The primary source on learning spells through the Extra Spell feat is the Extra Spell feat. The rules for learning spells in other ways (from class levels, mostly) do not automatically apply to Extra Spell; it must write its own rules (or at least reference those rules, which it does not).

There really isn't any kind of an argument here. Extra Spell is very explicit about what the limitation is -- spell level. Not spell list.

[docnessuno]

Your first quote from the SRD states plainly that a spell has a number, called the spell's level. This number, in the line in their entry, is preceded by the class for which the spell is that level. That is, the class is not a part of the spell's level.

Which is to say, the spell's level is not "Druid 3," it's "3."

Extra Spell only lists, as a restriction, that the spell be of the same level as one you can cast. It does not specify that it must be a spell you could otherwise learn. It says nothing about spell lists. And it has to, because there is no precedent for learning a spell through a feat. The primary source on learning spells through the Extra Spell feat is the Extra Spell feat. The rules for learning spells in other ways (from class levels, mostly) do not automatically apply to Extra Spell; it must write its own rules (or at least reference those rules, which it does not).

There really isn't any kind of an argument here. Extra Spell is very explicit about what the limitation is -- spell level. Not spell list.

And you completely missed my point.

I am assuming that YOU CAN pick up the spell with extra spell (i don't agree but i'm conceding the point for now).

1) Now you know a "druid X" spell as a cleric
2) The spell is NOT added to the cleric list, you merely know it
3) The spell is still a Druid X spell, you don't have any druid spell slots to prepare it.
4) Even if you somehow did, as a cleric you are expressly forbidden to prepare spells that are not on your list or on a domain you know (and can only use the domain slot for those).

[Answerer]

Your spell list is a superset of your spells known. No spell you know can fail to be on your spell list.

[docnessuno]

Your spell list is a superset of your spells known. No spell you know can fail to be on your spell list.

Waiting for a RAW quote on this.
Good luck in finding one.

[Answerer]

Find me a place where Wizards defines "learn" as "added to your spells known [which don't exist for many spellcasters to begin with], but not your spell list."

If the Cleric is incapable of learning a spell he has "learned," then he hasn't learned one. Your argument would make the feat self-contradictory: it would state he learned the spell but he wouldn't have actually learned the spell. I do not accept as reasonable any interpretation that involves assuming that a single rule contradicting itself.

The verb used by Complete Arcane is "learns," and that explicitly means different things for different classes. It does not say "adds the spell to your Spells Known" -- if it did, then Wizards couldn't use it because they don't have Spells Known, they have a Spellbook. But "learning" for a Wizard explicitly involves adding the spell to his spellbook so that he can prepare and cast it. "Learning," for the Sorcerer, does simply involve adding it to one's Spells Known (which is a subset of your Spell List). And "learning," for a prepared Divine spellcaster, means nothing more than adding it to your Spell List. Note that in all of these cases, adding it to one's Spell List is a necessary step of "learning" the spell, because otherwise the spell could not be cast (as you said). But if it cannot be cast, then you have not learned the spell, and the feat contradicts itself. Since that is not a reasonable interpretation, the only possible conclusion is that you are wrong.

[docnessuno]

Find me a place where Wizards defines "learn" as "added to your spells known [which don't exist for many spellcasters to begin with], but not your spell list."

If the Cleric is incapable of learning a spell he has "learned," then he hasn't learned one. Your argument would make the feat self-contradictory: it would state he learned the spell but he wouldn't have actually learned the spell. I do not accept as reasonable any interpretation that involves assuming that a single rule contradicting itself.

This based only on your personal interpretation of the world "learn". Wich is hardly RAW.


Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

Based on your interpretation at every even level past 2nd a sorcerer can add any spell from any spell list to his spells known. Nice i suddently have the urge to play one.

As anyone can notice by reading the sorcerer page on the SRD (as well as many others), "Learn" is used as a substitute for "add the spell to your spells known" and not "add the spell to your spell list".

[kabreras]

You both know that its is a neverending conversation that has been done countless times on this forum and where peoples with stand their ground to death...

This feat is one of those that have a "TALK WITH YOUR DM BEFORE PICKING" on front of it.

[Answerer]

This based only on your personal interpretation of the world "learn". Wich is hardly RAW.
Correct. "Learn" is not defined in this context as a technical term (your quote of the Sorcerer rules is meaningless since they would not apply to the Wizard, who can explicitly benefit from the feat), which means it must be interpreted. Your interpretation is no more RAW than mine.

Effectively, I am stating that you do not "learn" a spell until you can cast it. Your interpretation would say that the character "learns" the spell, which has absolutely no effect whatsoever on anything in the game.

I leave it as an exercise to the reader as to which is more likely.


I can buy "you cannot choose spells off your list" as a desirable houserule. I cannot accept "you can choose spells off your list, you simply gain no benefit whatsoever" as a valid interpretation, however.

[Curmudgeon]

... That is, the class is not a part of the spell's level.

Which is to say, the spell's level is not "Druid 3," it's "3."
Then what's the level of Control Water?
Level: Clr 4, Drd 4, Sor/Wiz 6, Water 4 Your claimed simplification fails, because it simply :smallbiggrin: can't handle actual spells with different level values for different classes. The answer here is: Cleric, Druid, and Water domain "4"; and also Sorcerer and Wizard "6". There is no simple numeric answer, and no numeric answer at all unless you're in the context of the correct class list.

[candycorn]

Curm is right.

For Control Water, the spell level is variable.

If you are a Druid, the spell level is 4.
If you are a Cleric, the spell level is 4.
If you have access to the Water Domain, then the spell is level 4 when prepared as a Domain spell.

If you are a sorceror or wizard, however, the spell level is 6.

Yes, the spell level is just a number... However, that number is set based on what Class is accessing it.

If your class doesn't have an entry for that spell, then it has no number (as you have no class to reference to determine the spell), and is easy to answer as the question: "What is an Undead's Constitution score?"

Some classes get around this by adopting the class list of another class. Example: The Chameleon casts spells from the Sorceror/Wizard list and/or the Cleric list. That lets you use the sorceror/wizard "Spell Level", or the cleric "spell level". Without that text, there is no rules authorization for determining the spell level of the spell, for the simple reason that spell level can change based on the class casting it.

Resist Energy is a level 2 spell...
Unless cast by a Duskblade, then it's a level 1 spell.

Haste is a level 3 spell...
Unless cast by a Trapsmith, then it's a level 1 spell.

Since the class determines which number you use, you cannot divorce the number from the class.

[Kumori]

I'm surprised no one's brought up the fact that neither Clerics nor Druids actually "know" their spells. They have access to all spells on their respective spell lists, but nothing ever mentions them knowing them. There is also nothing saying that they can prepare any spells that they do know, so even if Extra Spell did let them learn a different class's spell, they still couldn't cast it...

[Answerer]

Then what's the level of Control Water?
Control water is a 4th-level spell and a 6th-level spell. It exists at both levels. Different classes get different level versions of it, but those classes are explicitly not part of the level. For situations that do not reference a Spell List (like Extra Spell), it is either.

You cannot claim that spell level includes the class, because the rules explicitly state they are separate.


I'm surprised no one's brought up the fact that neither Clerics nor Druids actually "know" their spells.
Probably because it's irrelevant, as the feat never uses that yerm? It uses "learn," which does not have a definition in the rules. But I call any proposed interpretation of the word that involves absolutely no change in a character's knowledge or abilities to be in contradiction with the English definition of the word.

[Deca4531]

I'm surprised no one's brought up the fact that neither Clerics nor Druids actually "know" their spells. They have access to all spells on their respective spell lists, but nothing ever mentions them knowing them. There is also nothing saying that they can prepare any spells that they do know, so even if Extra Spell did let them learn a different class's spell, they still couldn't cast it...

for a cleric it states that the spells they can cast are granted through either "strength of faith" or "divine inspiration" at no point dose it say they actually "know" the spell so in effect it more or less just happens through a projection of their will or their gods.

now take a flavored soul, they "know" their spells. so if you asked a cleric to describe how to cast a spell, they wouldn't know since how its done occurs to them when they need to cast it and is then gone. a flavored soul probably could explain it since they "know" at all times how its cast.

now a lot of the arguments are based on RAW, and some points on interpretation. i say take a moment to ask how the mechanics of the spell would work. a divine caster could not use the Extra Spell feat to learn an arcane spell since he dose not have access to its source of power. a druid gains its spell through "the force of nature itself" or a "nature deity" they also don't "know" their spell per-say. now since clerics have Domains they can access this might give them some access to what you might call "arcane magic" or "nature magic" though the extent would be limited due to its unfamiliar nature.

or something like that, im not great at voicing my thoughts but i think you get where im going with it.