(PF) Bards with ToM Binding instead of Magic?

[The_Shaman]

Hi, I'm generally a Pathfinder player, but there are a few elements of 3.5 that I like and wouldn't mind pulling in a game. For example, I find the idea of vestiges, remnants of something powerful and glorious that can lend you some of their power in exchange for being able to experience "life" again, quite interesting, and I was thinking of having an option for bards to double as binders.

Why bards? Well, they are supposed to be about music and lore, and yet they get some magic as well. IMO the magic doesn't tie that heavily in the archetype; while the idea of music as magic has some merit depending on the setting it shouldn't be obligatory - and bards aren't always about music either. Binding imo makes more sense sense - it is based on lore and willingness to make a deal with such a thing. Plus, I think quite a lot of bards can appreciate the concept of embodying a legendary figure and bringing it back to life.

The question is, what do you think they should give up for it? Magic is obvious, and while I don't think binding is as powerful as 9-level casting it might be a bit too much. Maybe trade spells, jack of all trades and some of the performances for binding and some of the binder abilities?

[Psyren]

Hi, I'm generally a Pathfinder player, but there are a few elements of 3.5 that I like and wouldn't mind pulling in a game. For example, I find the idea of vestiges, remnants of something powerful and glorious that can lend you some of their power in exchange for being able to experience "life" again, quite interesting, and I was thinking of having an option for bards to double as binders.

Why bards? Well, they are supposed to be about music and lore, and yet they get some magic as well. IMO the magic doesn't tie that heavily in the archetype; while the idea of music as magic has some merit depending on the setting it shouldn't be obligatory - and bards aren't always about music either. Binding imo makes more sense sense - it is based on lore
and willingness to make a deal with such a thing. Plus, I think quite a lot of bards can appreciate the concept of embodying a legendary figure and bringing it back to life.

The question is, what do you think they should give up for it? Magic is obvious, and while I don't think binding is as powerful as 9-level casting it might be a bit too much. Maybe trade spells, jack of all trades and some of the performances for binding and some of the binder abilities?

Honestly, I would say the spells alone should be enough of a sacrifice. Vestige abilities are technically at-will and supernatural, but generally aren't very strong on their own. Such a class would gain a more Warlock-y feel - more stamina, but less overall power.

One thing to be aware of is that a Barder would be one hell of a party face thanks to Naberius. You may want to tweak what such a player can accomplish via the Diplomacy or Bluff skills unless you don't mind them running roughshod over all your NPCs.

If you're really worried about power level, you could always cap them at level 6 vestiges, using the same progression they have for spell levels.

[Fates]

And as to flavor, it really depends on what kind of bard you're playing. For most bards, I would have to say that the spells make a good bit more sense than vestiges do- binding is a very specialized and exotic power, while bards are fairly generalistic and commonplace.

However, a binder-bard could always work as some sort of incredible actor- one who can channel the very spirits of those in the stories to create amazing performances....

[Kazyan]

One thing to be aware of is that a Barder would be one hell of a party face thanks to Naberius.

I am of the opinion the Naberius needs to be chiseled out of the game because of the multiple shenanigans he is complicit in. Just get rid of him.

[Psyren]

I am of the opinion the Naberius needs to be chiseled out of the game because of the multiple shenanigans he is complicit in. Just get rid of him.

He isn't the problem - the Diplomacy skill is. I recommend using either the Giant's fix, or the Pathfinder version.

His other abilities are barely worth mentioning. He heals ability damage slightly faster, but you can do that anyway via a 1st-level spell. And his "cooldown ability" is yet another first-level spell.

[Fates]

He isn't the problem - the Diplomacy skill is. I recommend using either the Giant's fix, or the Pathfinder version.

His other abilities are barely worth mentioning. He heals ability damage slightly faster, but you can do that anyway via a 1st-level spell. And his "cooldown ability" is yet another first-level spell.

One ability damage/round is considerably better than one/day, and one ability drain/hour is a hell of a lot better than not regaining it at all. Considering this is accessible at 1st-level, it can really throw things off early on. Later, it's just a little bonus that you can replicate countless ways, only really useful to hellfire warlocks.

[Ziegander]

And as to flavor, it really depends on what kind of bard you're playing. For most bards, I would have to say that the spells make a good bit more sense than vestiges do- binding is a very specialized and exotic power, while bards are fairly generalistic and commonplace.

What the hell is a Bard? What makes them so "generalistic" and "commonplace?" In the PHB, it's very easy for just about anyone to wrap their heads around what a Barbarian, or a Monk, or Sorcerer is, but tell a new player that there's a Bard class, and they'll have no idea what you're talking about.

Oh, wandering minstrels, masters of forgotten lore, who sing magical songs and cast charms, curses, and illusions. Right, that sounds like something that would just pop up all over the place doesn't it?

In my opinion, a Bard with Soul Binding rather than spell casting is a perfect fit, it makes perfect sense, and all you'd need to do is swap one for the other and call it done. The spells are more powerful than the Binding anyway.

[sreservoir]

One ability damage/round is considerably better than one/day, and one ability drain/hour is a hell of a lot better than not regaining it at all. Considering this is accessible at 1st-level, it can really throw things off early on. Later, it's just a little bonus that you can replicate countless ways, only really useful to hellfire warlocks.

and? archivists have lesser restoration from 1, cleric or druid from 3, paladin from 4. strongheart vest can be shaped from 1. restoration is a 4th level spell on the cleric list, the system assumes you can buy it as a service for 380 gp. ability damage healing doesn't matter unless you're building on something which assumes it functions as a real cost, because it's ... not very common, really. at low levels, it's not usually worth using over damage anyway, and at high levels, it's cheap to restore. and if you are building for it, well, you just spent a class level on something you could have mostly replicated using your WBL.

and the ability drain healing is negligible at essentially all levels, because it's too slow in combat and by the time you reach a level where things assume it's a viable cost, you can afford the restoration anyway. because, well, it's kind of not a viable cost until you can pay for the restoration.

[umbergod]

and? archivists have lesser restoration from 1, cleric or druid from 3, paladin from 4.

That first one requires a DM allowing you to find a divine scroll of lesser restoration as a 1st level spell, so its not a given and should not be listed as a reliable source

[Psyren]

That first one requires a DM allowing you to find a divine scroll of lesser restoration as a 1st level spell, so its not a given and should not be listed as a reliable source

Or just take Extra Spell at 3 to learn it, followed by scribing a scroll of it and retraining the feat.

[TopCheese]

What the hell is a Bard? What makes them so "generalistic" and "commonplace?" In the PHB, it's very easy for just about anyone to wrap their heads around what a Barbarian, or a Monk, or Sorcerer is, but tell a new player that there's a Bard class, and they'll have no idea what you're talking about.

Oh, wandering minstrels, masters of forgotten lore, who sing magical songs and cast charms, curses, and illusions. Right, that sounds like something that would just pop up all over the place doesn't it?

In my opinion, a Bard with Soul Binding rather than spell casting is a perfect fit, it makes perfect sense, and all you'd need to do is swap one for the other and call it done. The spells are more powerful than the Binding anyway.

Actually Bards are quite popular, heck most people I know that don't play D&D (or Final Fantasy) knows the general idea of a Bard or at the very least a Skald.

However I love the idea of the Bard getting Binding but I fear it would make the mundane classes cry even more as the party face destroys melee combat with the Bind (I forget the name... starts with a P) that allows you to boost your dex and run around the battlefield slicing and dicing... Without feat investments.

It just hit me again that feats suck...

[alchemyprime]

Paimon! The best vestige! He's awesome.