Truespeach-using BBEG Idea

[Chilingsworth]

I just had an interesting idea for a BBEG that might also be a way to overcome the limitations of truespeach:

Basically, the Unname spell: What happens if one of a creature's direct ancestors is erased by it?
For a BBEG, I'm imagining someone who hates all living things and wants to prevent them from ever having existed. So, he/she might start by unnaming people/creatures he/she knows to have alot of progeny. That would (relatively) efficently eliminate their decendents as well. Ultimately, the BBEG might try developing an epic version of the spell to unname reality itself.

On a smaller scale: What happens if someone does the following:

PC: Ok, the BBEG is too powerful for me to successfully unname. Hmm, hey Cleric?

Cleric: Yeah?

PC: Could you do some divinning for me about BBEG's direct ancestors? Specifically, looking for the weakest one still alive?

Cleric: Unless the BBEG chose to protect them, that shoudn't be a problem.

*Cleric gets the info requested*

PC: Oh, good, looks like BBEG's granddad is still alive and is a dirt farmer. Well, his grandson sure has come up in the world. Still...

*PC locates said dirt farmer, and Unnames him*

If your grandfather is unnamed, do you cease to exist as well?

[TheWombatOfDoom]

If that is the case, I don't see anyway that the BBEG would no protect his Granddaddy. Further, if you start unnaming innocent people, wouldn't YOU then become the BBEG?

[Chilingsworth]

If that is the case, I don't see anyway that the BBEG would no protect his Granddaddy. Further, if you start unnaming innocent people, wouldn't YOU then become the BBEG?

Sorry, I meant the BBEG's use to be a seperate case from a theoretical PC use of a similiar tactic (i.e. a PC would be using it against a non-truespeaking BBEG who would therefore likely not consdier it a serrious threat.)

As for becoming the BBEG, sure that's a possibility. I don't nessicarily see that as a down side, and at worst see it as a potentially acceptable price to pay.

[docnessuno]

Also it would be a terrible idea to use it against players (and any BBEG worth something with access to such a power would)

DM: Rick, hand over your sheet
Rick: What?
DM: You have annoyed the BBEG too much, and he decided to unname your father. You never existed.
Rick: ...
Rick: *Looks for another gaming group*

[Chilingsworth]

Also it would be a terrible idea to use it against players (and any BBEG worth something with access to such a power would)

DM: Rick, hand over your sheet
Rick: What?
DM: You have annoyed the BBEG too much, and he decided to unname your father. You never existed.
Rick: ...
Rick: *Looks for another gaming group*

Simple enough counter to that: be an orphan born of orphans. If you aren't and you have sufficent reason to believe yourself a potential target for this tactic, protect your living direct ancestors from identification. If you can't: kill them, or can the dead be unnamed? (Of course, this assumes a non-good PC at best.)

I should also note that I tend to play characters with all the knowledge skills, so they'd be able to recognize such potential threats. Also, almost all my characters happen to be either the children of spellcasters (who could likely protect themselves once made aware of the threat) or orphans.

[Deophaun]

Simple enough counter to that: be an orphan born of orphans..
"I'm sorry that you wanted your character to have a non-dead family, Joe, but you lost this game when you gave me your backstory."

::Joe goes looking for another gaming group.::

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Sorry, I meant the BBEG's use to be a seperate case from a theoretical PC use of a similiar tactic (i.e. a PC would be using it against a non-truespeaking BBEG who would therefore likely not consdier it a serrious threat.)

Even if the BBEG does not have the power, he'd likely have someone employed who does, or he wouldn't be Big and Bad. He's got to account for threats of this truespeaking nature or his reign would be fairly shortlived.


As for becoming the BBEG, sure that's a possibility. I don't nessicarily see that as a down side, and at worst see it as a potentially acceptable price to pay.

Spoken from one side of the alignment spectrum! There would be many that would be opposed to this course of action. Unnaming is Taboo, and likely not well encouraged to any degree. Sure it's a solution to a problem, but socially there might be something in place for commiting such an act. If that's of no consequence, then alright. But it might be against certain members of the group's philosophy.

[Deophaun]

Finally read the spell.

Basically, the Unname spell: What happens if one of a creature's direct ancestors is erased by it?
Fortunately, this little trip into the bad DMing deep-end is short-circuited, as all that happens is they lose their ancestor, and any items on their ancestor at the time.

That's. It.

People still remember the ancestor, offspring still exists, accomplishments are still accomplished, etc.

[Chilingsworth]

Finally read the spell.

Fortunately, this little trip into the bad DMing deep-end is short-circuited, as all that happens is they lose their ancestor, and any items on their ancestor at the time.

That's. It.

People still remember the ancestor, offspring still exists, accomplishments are still accomplished, etc.

Well, dang. So much for finding a work-around to make truenaming not useless. :smallsigh:

[Blackhawk748]

well im sure you could do the "He-never-existed" Unname as an Epic Level power, it would actually be a cool quest. Stop the BBEG from having the power to undo ANYTHING

[alchemyprime]

Hm...

I like this idea. I would have to talk to the right player for it, but I like this idea...

And yet... I think the heroes should have to have a way to overcome it. See, the way I figure it, real heroes (the kind who get Action Points or Hero Points, depending on what you like better), they're tougher to kill than the other guys.

The universe likes having them around, even if it's not sure how to keep them around. Since I use Hero Points, I'll use them for this example (but double the cost or add three, whichever is lower, for Action Points).

1. Make them make a Fort Save with a -10 penalty, with an additional -5 penalty for each ancestor back it was (so Grandpa is -15, GreatGrandpa is -20, etc.)
2. If they make their save, spend 2 Hero Points. This isn't a save or die - this is a save or STOP EXISTING. A success is death. 2 Hero Points is knock you to -1 HP.
3. If they do fail, they can still spend Hero Points. 2 lets their spirit live on, even if it's with different memories or such. The universe still needs that hero in some fashion.

At this point I'd come up with some way to make them redo their character. I like the custom deck of many things I have set up - it's based on that Retraining one Wizards made for PHBII (3.5). Make them draw from the deck for each suit to determine their new form (if they spend an additional Hero Point, they can draw twice from two suits and pick the one they prefer).

The Deck of Many Lives (Pathfiner/3.5 version for may game)

Jokers (mix into a suit each so they pop up randomly)

The Gambler - Draw a card. If you don't like it, draw another. You have to take the second's effect.
The Victim - Retrain a feat. Draw two more cards.

Skull (Ability Suits. If you draw one, rebuild your stats with that score being 4 lower [minimum 3])

Buffoon - Charisma
Daydreamer - Wisdom
Halfwit - Intelligence
Lummox - Dexterity
Sickly One - Constitution
Weakling - Strength

Blood (Race Suits. If you draw your own race, change the subrace or two racial abilities for alternates. Exception - Elf to Drow, as drow have their own card)

Beastkin - Catfolk, Ratfolk (Nezumi), Tengu or Vishkanya
Draconic Heritage - Half-Dragon or Dragonblooded variant for your race
Earthkin - Dwarf or gnome (your choice)
Genie Child - Roll 1d6. Ifrit, Oread, Sulli-Jann, Sylph, Undine, or GM's Choice. If you do not use these races, instead use Genasi.
Goblins Bite - Retrain as a Goblinoid Race (GM's choice)
Hellfire - Fiendish character, half-fiend or tiefling
Holy Light - Celestial, Half-Celestial or Aasimar
Bloodlust - Vampire or Dhampir
Exile - Orc or Half-Orc
Gregarious Neighbor - Human
Moon - Lycanthrope or Shifter
Small Folk - Halfling
Trap Dragon - Kobold
Wildblood - GM's Choice
Woodkin - Elf or Half-Elf
Shadowkin - Drow or half-drow

Eye (Class Suits. If you pick the same as your own, choose another Archetype. If no archetypes or options, draw two cards)

Alchemist
Artificer
Barbarian
Bard
Cavalier
Cleric
Fighter
Destiny - GM's Choice
Druid
Gunslinger
Inquisitor
Magus
Monk
Oracle
Paladin
Prestigious Enterprise - You must choose a prestige class and retrain so you can be in it. If you are too low of a level to do so, draw two cards.
Psion
Psychic Warrior
Ranger
Rogue
Sorcerer
Soulknife
Spirit Binder
Summoner
Tactician
Tinkerer - (Artificer from TOme of Secrets)
Vitalist
Wilder
Witch
Wizard

Hand (Variation Cards - Changes part of how you are. You don't need to draw one of these for the Unnaming thing unless you want - this is purely for completionism)

Aspect of Divinity - Retrain a domain to another of your god's domains, or change your domains to an Exalted Domain of one you already have (from The Genius Guide To Exalted Domains of Light and Lore)
Innate Magic - If you can cast spells spontaneously and have a spells known, retrain two of your spells. One of these must be of your highest level spell known.
Invulnerable Collossus - If you have an energy immunity or resistance, change it to another energy. If it comes with a vulnerability, the vulnerability changes as well. (Ie. A Fire Subtype creature is normally immune to fire and vulnerable to cold, but if her draws this card, that permanantly changes to be two other energies, such as Immune to Cold, but Vulnerable to Sonic)
Mage's Dilemma - If you cast Arcane Spells, change part of your training. Wizards choose another school specialization, sorcerers another bloodline, summoners rebuild their eidolon (and keep that new base form permanantly), magi change their magus arcana, witches change their patron, and bards change their Versatile Performances and Cantrips.
The Narrow Bridge - Change your Turn Undead or Channel Energy to be the opposite (if you used to channel negative energy, you now channel positive, and vice versa)
Psychic's Dilemma - If you are part of a psionic class, change your defining class feature - Discipline for a Psion, Surge for a Wilder, Warrior's Path for a Psychic Warrior, Blade Skills for a Soulknife, Combat Style for Marksman, Method for a Vitalist, Terrors for a Dread, Astral Suit for an Aegis, Strategies for a Tactician, or Powers Known for the Cryptic.
Ranger's Dilemma - Retrain your Combat Syle if you are a Ranger or Marksman. If you are neither of these, draw two cards.
Cavalier's Dilemma - If you are a cavalier or a samurai, retrain your order.
Speaker - Retrain two of your languages. Draw another card from any deck.
Unarmed Master - Retrain one of your Monk Bonus feats. If you are not a monk, retrain one of your feats into Improved Unarmed Strike.

Heart - (Skill and Feat cards, included here for completionism)

Acrobat - Retrain one skill for Acrobatics.
Artisan - Retrain One Skill for Craft (your choice)
Craftsman -Retrain one Item Creation feat for another you qualify for.
Diplomat - Retrain one skill for Diplomacy.
Heroic Feat - Retrain a feat for another feat.
Investigator - Retrain a skill for Perception.
Medic - Retrain a skill for Heal.
Saving Grace - Retrain Iron Will, Lighting Reflexes or Great Fortitude for one of the other two. If you have all or none of these feats, draw again.
Scholar - Retrain a skill for a Knowledge (GM's choice).
Spellbender - Retrain a metamagic feat for another metamagic feat. If you have no metamagic feats, draw again.
Spellcrafter - Retrain a skill for Spellcraft
Trapbreaker - Retrain a skill for Disable Device.
Unseen - Retrain a skill for Stealth
Zealot - Retrain a skill for Knowledge (Religion)
Trusted Companion - Retrain your Familiar, Psicrystal, Mount or Animal Companion for another of it's same kind (so, for example, a Cat Familiar for a Raven Familiar.)



There, that should do nicely. Let's see if I got ninja'd.

[Deophaun]

Just remember, if you go the "never existed" route, then the target never existed for you to research his true name, and so you never cast the unname spell to remove him from existence, which means the target exists and is standing in front of you. Would you like to cast the spell again for the very first time?

[alchemyprime]

Just remember, if you go the "never existed" route, then the target never existed for you to research his true name, and so you never cast the unname spell to remove him from existence, which means the target exists and is standing in front of you. Would you like to cast the spell again for the very first time?

Nah, you're over thinking it there, mate. You're rebooting time purely to undo that person. You've now created an alternate, parallel timeline where they never existed.

But with that up there, there is now someone else who was in their place that whole time. The thing is, the villain doesn't know he deleted his worst enemy from existance already, he just has a new one. It'd be like if Luthor killed Superman, only for Superman to be replaced by Captain America or Martian Manhunter. Your players know the difference, but the characters don't.

With an exception, I'd gather. I think each of the player characters can make a will save, as can the BBEG. If they do, they remember the old timeline. If they don't, they remember the new timeline.

So if I rebooted Groznar the dwarf barbarian and he's replaced with Lecogna, the human samurai, I'd pull over all the players who failed their saves and the rebooted player to make the new timeline's details. Players who made their save will be really confused.

Totes using this now.

[Blackhawk748]

I think i might use this too, i have no idea how, but by god im gonna find a way!

Also Im gonna pull a Q from Star Trek and just delete the guy, his progeny, and have his accomplishments be done by multiple other people. The BBEG is using this mainly to get rid of the party member.

[Morph Bark]

Well, dang. So much for finding a work-around to make truenaming not useless. :smallsigh:

Even if it had worked, it wouldn't have changed much about the status of Truenaming, which is either:
Too hard to make successful, and thus underpowered.
So powerful as to be at the top of gamebreaking potential.

[Deophaun]

Nah, you're over thinking it there, mate. You're rebooting time purely to screw over a player.
FIFY

Now, if this was actually the point of a known quest (i.e. not something you had to invest in an otherwise worthless and, frankly, obscure knowledge skill to even know to defend against), or if this was a way to allow a player who is unhappy with his character to switch to a new one, that's one thing. You actually have a truenamer in the group and he wants to be useful? Great, we've got a plot for you! That's all fine and dandy, but...

As a legitimate method (akin to just casting fireball) to take out a PC? That should get an adamantium +5 Keen DM-bane PHB thrown at you.

[alchemyprime]

Again, I said discuss it with the player you think would be receptive to it first. I wouldn't go around using it willy-nilly. This is a plot-device spell, and that device is to recast a character while showing (at least to the characters that remember the old timeline) that the villain means business.

Plus it does two good things for the characters with Old Memories. They can begin to fear the baddie, or realize that he DOES have this great power, but it's hard for him to use. Which means a portion of his power is angled at doing this one thing instead of something else. Which could potentially make the ensuing fight easier, or much harder, based on how they think about.