Help with Epic

[Zelkon]

So, I'm about to start on my first epic character. So much to do! Does anyone have any idea how to go about creating a good epic level character? I want some spellcasting, and level 24 opens up some thurging possibilities. Thinking of a dragonwrought kobold Sorcerer/Wizard going into ultimate magus, although I don't know what to do after those 10 levels of UM.

[Nettlekid]

I recommend using the extra levels that Epic Level offers to make builds that you normally wouldn't be able to. Yeah, Dragonwrought Kobold is good and cheesy, but it'll be broken for its level no matter when you do it. Epic is nothing special. If you want to play a caster, you can afford to sacrifice a few caster levels since you'll never need more than 20, and you basically don't need more than 17 with a Wizard, 18 with a Sorcerer. That's how I feel about it, anyway.

So why not play something like a Master Transmogrifist? Overall, the entire class's class features are less impressive than the single spell Shapechange, and because of 4 lost Caster Levels, even a Wizard can't get Shapechange if they go through all of MT. Which is a pity, because the capstone allows you to choose a few creatures you can turn into, and apply one trait from ANY OTHER creature to that creature. But because you're 24th level, you could have both. You could get a persisted Shapechange (use a little Incantatrix cheese, maybe, or Anima Mage) and then swap between your favored forms, or even the same favored form with different augments. Wouldn't it be fun to be an Overseer Beholder with Aspect of Demogorgon's Dual Actions? An "Immune to all attacks except bludgeoning" Zodar with "Immune to bludgeoning" from an Ocean Giant? Sky's the limit.

Or take a Theurge/Dual 9's opportunity. Be a Jade Phoenix Mage or Ruby Knight Vindicator with 9th level spells and maneuvers. Go some sick, twisted combo of Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord to get accelerated 9th level spells on both sides, and then a little Dweomerkeeper just until you get Supernatural (and thus without GP cost) True Resurrection, or other fun goodies. Don't just slap on a Dragonwrought Kobold and call it a day.

[JeminiZero]

I would recommend against Sorc/Wiz/Ultimate Magus for MAD reasons. Go for Beguiler/Wiz instead, and your Wizard side can quite safely ban Enchantment and Illusions.

Other int-based SAD theurges include is Psion/Wizard/Cerebromancer. Or for Archivist/Wizard or Beguiler/Mystic Theurge.

Of note, if you have prepared spellcasting on one side, and spontaneous casting on the other (Wiz/Beguiler and Archivist/Beguiler) you might be able to abuse Versatile Spellcaster. The feat lets you cast an spell you know by sacrificing spontaneous spell slots, and as a prepared caster, you *know* every spell in your book.

For Wis based, there is Ardent/Cleric or Ur-Priest/Psychic Theurge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b). Which doesn't have to worry about losing his spellbook.

[Zelkon]

How does one make a ToB/arcane thrurge?

[mattie_p]

Use the Jade Phoenix Mage prestige class in ToB, it is fairly easy to get into, and with starting ECL 24 you can afford to (as Nettlekid mentioned) lose a couple CLs here or there to still get 9th level spells.

[Hirax]

I'll pitch a relatively simple suggestion of wizard5/incantatrix10/divine oracle3/olin gisir1/mindbender1/archmage4/loremaster1

Loremaster for an extra epic feat, mindbender to get telepathy for mindsight, archmage for useful utility abilities, and olin gisir for a free feat. Divine oracle gets you the ability to roll twice on spells such as divination (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divination.htm), greatly aiding your ability to prepare for the future. Incantatrix needs no introduction.

[Zelkon]

Would Sha'ir work well in a UM build with Sorcerer?
EDIT: Nevermind, I'm an idiot.

[Nettlekid]

For a Jade Phoenix Mage I suggest a simple "some combo of caster/PrC" 10/Swordsage 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Swordsage 2-4. That way you get a few level 9 Maneuvers (if you qualify, which shouldn't be hard since you get so many from Swordsage) and 9th level spells, not to mention all the goodies of your other caster PrC. You could drop a couple of the end Swordsage levels for more caster levels, if you felt like that. And if you really wanted a huge number of maneuvers, you could go "caster/PrC" 10/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Crusader 2/Swordsage 1/Warblade 1. You'd get a good chunk of both Crusader and Swordsage maneuvers, including a non-level 1 stance for Crusader (Crusaders have some good stances). Your Crusader maneuvers will only be level 3 or lower (IL 6 when you get in), but whatever you grab from Jade Phoenix Mage will use Crusader refresh mechanics (which is useful since as a caster you don't want to waste actions). Your Crusader stance is taken with IL 17, meaning any Crusader stance is up for grabs. If you're lawful, I suggest Aura of Perfect Order. Take 11 on a d20 roll 1/round? Yes please. Your Swordsage IL is also 17 when you take your first level, meaning you can grab 9th level maneuvers right away so long as you choose prereq maneuvers first. Some maneuvers without prereqs, like Shadow Blink and Mountain Tombstone Strike, are kind of "why wouldn't you pick this"? You finish off with enough Warblade to grab Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, and Iron Heart Endurance if you have any White Raven from Crusader as a prereq. Those are some choice picks. So yeah, you'll have all that maneuver stuff going on...AND you'll have CL 18, which means a whole helluva lot of hurt for anything you want. I mean, imagine a focused Transmuter Shapechanging into dragons, and initiating maneuvers. Or you could just be a Mailman with surprising durability close-range. At this level, options abound.

[Zelkon]

Are there any other arcane thurges other than UM? I can't find any...

[Phelix-Mu]

Eldritch theurge is an explicitly warlock/other arcane dual casting PrC. Some pretty strong special abilities, though perhaps not as bad as Eldritch Disciple (warlock/divine caster, same concept). It appears in Complete Mage supplement.

I would also point out that BAB and Base Saves granted by base classes or PrC for levels 21 and higher don't count, which make some unappealing 3/4 BAB and such classes seem a lot better.

[Nettlekid]

I would also point out that BAB and Base Saves granted by base classes or PrC for levels 21 and higher don't count, which make some unappealing 3/4 BAB and such classes seem a lot better.

Wait, sorry, could you expand on that? I'm unfamiliar with Epic play, and I know there are some weird rules, but that's surprising. So you're saying that if a character was a level 20 Wizard, and took four levels of Fighter, they would not gain +4 BAB and +4 Fort/+1 Ref/+1 Will saves? Would you get the class features (in this case the bonus feats)?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's Cerebremancer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/cerebremancer.htm) (Wizard + Psion) and Psychic Theurge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b) (Psion + Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) or Ardent + Cleric). Then there's Arcane Heirophant in Races of the Wild, it's a Druid + Arcane which combined with Mystic Theurge can get 9th level spells in both classes at 20th.

For an Ultimate Magus, you should combine Beguiler and Wizard, preferably Human Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3/ UM 10/ Mindbender 1/ Incantatrix 4, then either get more Incantatrix or take Epic Ultimate Magus (no official progression exists). Take two flaws, get Versatile Spellcaster, Able Learner, and any metamagic feat at 1st level, and Master Spellthief at 3rd (qualifying by using Versatile Spellcaster to spend two 1st level Beguiler slots to cast a 2nd level Wizard spell you know). With Master Spellthief your arcane spellcaster levels stack to determine your caster level in each class, but then your UM caster level bonus gets added on top of it.

On Epic Ultimate Magus, consider the following:

Spellcasting: At each level except 1st, 4th, and 7th, you
gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and
spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level
in both a prepared arcane casting class and a spontaneous
arcane casting class to which you belonged before adding
the prestige class level.
That "each level" would include any UM levels after 10th, as there's no listed exception for them, so every level of Epic Ultimate Magus should increase your spellcasting in both of your classes. The Arcane Spell Power class feature gets +1 every three levels in a regular patter, so that would continue to increase. It gets Expanded Spell Knowledge at every even-numbered level, which is easy to progress into epic. Augmented Casting counts your UM class level, which continues to increase as you take Epic UM, so that will keep getting better. The only thing left to decide would be epic metamagic feats, and I'd put them at every fourth level after 9th to make a regular feat pattern of 5th, 9th, 13th, 17th, 21st, etc.

With that build and four Epic UM levels you would have a caster level of 40 in each class, and your spells/day and highest level spells could be something like Wizard 20/ Beguiler 14, or Wizard 17/ Beguiler 17, Wizard 18/ Beguiler 16, etc. Note that with Versatile Spellcaster you can spend Beguiler spell slots to cast Wizard spells you know, and it also gives you early access to the next higher level of the Beguiler spell list, so Beguiler 16+ would be able to cast 9th level spells. At Wizard 17/ Beguiler 17 or Wizard 18/ Beguiler 16 you'll get to double-up on Epic Spellcasting spell slots from Kn: Arcana ranks.

If you can buy off a level adjustment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) then start with the Dark Creature template (ToM, +1 LA, 3000 xp to buy off) for Hide in Plain Sight (Ex), take the feat Darkstalker (LoM) at some point, and put max ranks in Hide and Move Silently (class skills via Beguiler, plus Able Learner). Be the ultimate caster + spy.

[TuggyNE]

Wait, sorry, could you expand on that? I'm unfamiliar with Epic play, and I know there are some weird rules, but that's surprising. So you're saying that if a character was a level 20 Wizard, and took four levels of Fighter, they would not gain +4 BAB and +4 Fort/+1 Ref/+1 Will saves? Would you get the class features (in this case the bonus feats)?

The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm#addingaSecondClass) has the information you need. You would gain class features, but would not gain +4 BAB or +4/+1/+1 saves; instead, you'd get the standard +2 epic attack bonus (which counts as BAB for essentially all purposes except iterative attacks) and +2/+2/+2 epic save bonuses.

[Trebloc]

I'll pitch a relatively simple suggestion of wizard5/incantatrix10/divine oracle3/olin gisir1/mindbender1/archmage4/loremaster1

Loremaster for an extra epic feat

You might want to run this my your DM first. A feat and an epic feat are two different things. Loremaster 1 gives you an extra feat. If you want extra epic feats using Loremaster, you need Loremaster 13 to get a bonus epic feat.

[Talderas]

I recommend using the extra levels that Epic Level offers to make builds that you normally wouldn't be able to. Yeah, Dragonwrought Kobold is good and cheesy, but it'll be broken for its level no matter when you do it. Epic is nothing special. If you want to play a caster, you can afford to sacrifice a few caster levels since you'll never need more than 20, and you basically don't need more than 17 with a Wizard, 18 with a Sorcerer. That's how I feel about it, anyway.

If you plan on doing anything that affects another creature you're going to need more than 20. Finding epic monsters that don't have spell resistance is a rarity.

--


That "each level" would include any UM levels after 10th, as there's no listed exception for them, so every level of Epic Ultimate Magus should increase your spellcasting in both of your classes.

And since 1/4/7 does not establish epic progression, every epic level grants the benefit. If it were every level but 1/4/7/10 then epic progression would be established and you would not get the benefit on 13/16/19/etc.

[tilionvevfet]

If you can cast Gate and have Epic Spellcasting, you can do anything.

Since you can combine any number of seeds, have any seed used be the primary seed (the one that determines what saves it has, if any), reduce the Spellcraft DC to 0 using a ritual with however many 9th level spell slots you need (to be provided by chain-gated Solars, etc.), thus causing you to learn it instantly, have no verbal or somatic components, have whatever area you desire, have it be quickened, and many other fun goodies, you can literally create a spell to solve your current problem in no time at all, and, with celerity, have it take place right away.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm

This IS cheese that stinks like no other, but it is RAW legal. :smallbiggrin:

[Gavinfoxx]

If you can cast Gate and have Epic Spellcasting, you can do anything.

Since you can combine any number of seeds, have any seed used be the primary seed (the one that determines what saves it has, if any), reduce the Spellcraft DC to 0 using a ritual with however many 9th level spell slots you need (to be provided by chain-gated Solars, etc.), thus causing you to learn it instantly, have no verbal or somatic components, have whatever area you desire, have it be quickened, and many other fun goodies, you can literally create a spell to solve your current problem in no time at all, and, with celerity, have it take place right away.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm

This IS cheese that stinks like no other, but it is RAW legal. :smallbiggrin:

That assumes you are traveling with or chain gating those Solars. A Gate Cascade is... kinda a big deal.