Oh woe to the Neutral Cleric

[silverwolfer]

So many choices, yet the need to stay true neutral , and a lack of allies, as you don't believe in anything but the balance. Being true neutral seems an advantage from casting most any spell of alignment needs that are do not be this sort of thing, instead of you must be this sort of thing. but am finding it a headache, for any sort of planar ally spell, seem to be lacking in anything to use as tools?

[Flickerdart]

True Neutral characters don't need to believe in balance. Most people are True Neutral simply because they don't have meaningfully strong feelings about Good, Evil, Law, or Chaos. If they're fighting for something, it's for deeply personal convictions (or boredom) rather than any sort of grand crusade.

[Jeff the Green]

Let's look at the core TN deities, and see what a TN cleric of each might campaign for.

Boccob. A cleric of Boccob might be a scholar or archivist that delves into ancient ruins for insight into magical phenomena. He might be a pious Indiana Jones who believes not with quasi-religious conviction, but with actual religious conviction, that ancient artifacts belong in a museum. Or he might desire to put an end to the evil necromancer because he gives magic a bad name.

Obad-Hai. A cleric of Obad-Hai might adventure for the same reasons as a druid. Perhaps said evil necromancer blights the land with undead, an abomination to Creation. Or maybe he wants to gather support for a campaign to end logging in a pristine forest, and the best way to do that is to clear out the bandits from the non-pristine forest. Or he serves the more human-centric side of his god and tends a flock of farmers, who have been oppressed by a horrible dictator. Though he wouldn't necessarily do so for any other people, messing with those farmers is the same as messing with him is the same as messing with his god.

Fharlanghn. This is the easiest of the three. A cleric of Fharlanghn probably adventures to see new sights and learn new things. He might wish to end a plague of bandits attacking travelers, or seek to stop a war that had resulted in the border between two countries being closed. Or he might want to protect a group of itinerant adventurers because he sees them as his god's natural interests.

Also remember that you can have a True Neutral character that believes in things like truth and love and altruism and fluffy bunnies so long as he's willing to murder, lie, torture, and decapitate kittens to achieve them.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The benefits of being extremely good or extremely evil far outweigh any benefits of neutrality. If you want a divine caster who believes in balance, play a Druid. Planar Ally would get Elementals for a neutral character.

[Vorr]

Well, the Forgotten Realms has at least 28, TN deity's! And just to note, a TN cleric can summon anything....TN does not have an opposing alignment.

Gond:A great knowledge example. A cleric of Gond would make a device for anyone for any reason. They don't care about politics or good or evil or any of that stuff. They just want to make tech.

Oghma:Another knowledge example. And again they don't care what is done with the knowledge.

Waukeen:Trade. It does not matter what or how, just trade.

[dspeyer]

The real woe is if they start slipping. A TN cleric of Boccob who slips into NE won't get warnings, because Boccob has no objection. But then he goes to heal a friend and it comes out as inflict. Or on the other side, he goes to command some undead to help out but he's been too nice and destroys them instead.

[Anecronwashere]

Haha I like that

Cleric: Right, I cast Infict Serious Wounds on that guy.
DM: Sorry, you kissed too many babies this week, you heal him instead
Cleric: Quick! Someone find me a dog to kick

[Techwarrior]

Also remember that you can have a True Neutral character that believes in things like truth and love and altruism and fluffy bunnies so long as he's willing to murder, lie, torture, and decapitate kittens to achieve them.

Mind if I sig this?

[Flickerdart]

The real woe is if they start slipping. A TN cleric of Boccob who slips into NE won't get warnings, because Boccob has no objection. But then he goes to heal a friend and it comes out as inflict. Or on the other side, he goes to command some undead to help out but he's been too nice and destroys them instead.
It doesn't "come out" as Inflict. An Evil cleric would simply be unable to spontaneously cast Cure spells, but there's no reason to assume that an Evil cleric trying to channel a Cure spell will have it come out as Inflict instead of simply failing.

[Piggy Knowles]

Regarding planar ally, there are plenty of TN choices. Just from the Monster Manual, TN choices include...

Elementals
Arrowhawks
Janni
Mephits
Rasts
Ravids
Tojanida
Xorn

...OK, never mind, that kind of sucks. But I'm sure there are better TN outsiders/elementals in other splatbooks. MM2 is always good for a laugh.

[hamishspence]

Also remember that you can have a True Neutral character that believes in things like truth and love and altruism and fluffy bunnies so long as he's willing to murder, lie, torture, and decapitate kittens to achieve them.

Depends on the DM- some will enforce rapid slide to Evil if the character is routinely committing very evil acts, even if the neutral character retains "belief in love and altruism".

[Tokuhara]

Cleric: Right, I cast Infict Serious Wounds on that guy.
DM: Sorry, you kissed too many babies this week, you heal him instead
Cleric: Quick! Someone find me a dog to kick

Can I sig this?

[Eonir]

Also remember that you can have a True Neutral character that believes in things like truth and love and altruism and fluffy bunnies so long as he's willing to murder, lie, torture, and decapitate kittens to achieve them.Mind if I sig this?

Ditto. I spewed coke all over my screen when I read this.

[Anecronwashere]

Sig away.
Also: Yay my first sig-quote :smallcool:

[DMVerdandi]

So many choices, yet the need to stay true neutral , and a lack of allies, as you don't believe in anything but the balance. Being true neutral seems an advantage from casting most any spell of alignment needs that are do not be this sort of thing, instead of you must be this sort of thing. but am finding it a headache, for any sort of planar ally spell, seem to be lacking in anything to use as tools?

Well, My advice would be to not be a theist cleric. Be an athiest cleric. A cleric need not be defined by his god, but what he is attached to. A cleric without a god is one who is close to being a god himself. The concepts are what give him power.

A cleric of fire and Protection is blessed by the torch-flame, which keeps enemies away. A cleric of time and death is the herald of the truth of limits. Nothing lasts forever, and through understanding that, each minute is cherished even more.


Making conceptual clerics is one of the most flavorful classes there are.

[Jeff the Green]

Mind if I sig this?

Ditto. I spewed coke all over my screen when I read this.

I'm honored. :smallredface: Go right ahead.


Depends on the DM- some will enforce rapid slide to Evil if the character is routinely committing very evil acts, even if the neutral character retains "belief in love and altruism".

True. I probably would too (or at least have a very serious discussion with the player), but a willingness to do evil in the service of good is different from routine atrocity.

[Tokuhara]

I have always been a fan of a Halfling Cleric of Luck and Nobility. Mechanically I get 2 rerolls /day and fluff is I am a prince who gained my kingdom by luck.

[erikun]

It doesn't "come out" as Inflict. An Evil cleric would simply be unable to spontaneously cast Cure spells, but there's no reason to assume that an Evil cleric trying to channel a Cure spell will have it come out as Inflict instead of simply failing.
Why is everyone assuming this is how it works?

"A cleric who is neither good nor evil and whose deity is neither good nor evil can convert spells to either cure spells or inflict spells (player’s choice). Once the player makes this choice, it cannot be reversed. This choice also determines whether the cleric turns or commands undead."
(Spontaneous Casting for the Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm))

You make the choice at character creation. It sticks with you for as long as you have class features. A spontaneous-healing (and turn undead) Cleric that turns evil still spontaneously heals and turns undead.

[Flickerdart]

Why is everyone assuming this is how it works?

"A cleric who is neither good nor evil and whose deity is neither good nor evil can convert spells to either cure spells or inflict spells (player’s choice). Once the player makes this choice, it cannot be reversed. This choice also determines whether the cleric turns or commands undead."
(Spontaneous Casting for the Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm))

You make the choice at character creation. It sticks with you for as long as you have class features. A spontaneous-healing (and turn undead) Cleric that turns evil still spontaneously heals and turns undead.
No. That rule (you choose one and stick with it) is talking about the choice between positive and negative that a neutral cleric gets to make. If you are no longer a neutral cleric, the rule no longer applies, because it is a rule for neutral clerics and you are not a neutral cleric any longer.

[Fates]

Well, My advice would be to not be a theist cleric. Be an athiest cleric. A cleric need not be defined by his god, but what he is attached to. A cleric without a god is one who is close to being a god himself. The concepts are what give him power.

A cleric of fire and Protection is blessed by the torch-flame, which keeps enemies away. A cleric of time and death is the herald of the truth of limits. Nothing lasts forever, and through understanding that, each minute is cherished even more.


Making conceptual clerics is one of the most flavorful classes there are.

I completely agree with this. Many people out there say that playing a conceptual cleric is just for lazy people, or power gamers who want to choose whatever domains they want, but it's my favourite kind of cleric to play by far. I don't like feeling like my characters are only as great as they are because someone else handed them power, and that if they stray from the strict codes of that certain someone, that power is lost, perhaps forever. An atheist cleric can still be a pious, even religious person in a way, but he does what he does not because someone he believes in tells him to do it, but because he believes that doing it is the right thing to do. It is that belief itself, not some god, that gives him the power to further it. Conceptual clerics are often the most well-developed and interesting characters out there. Plus, you get to seem mysterious and exotic to all those confused NPCs who simply can't fathom what exactly your deal is.


If you want to be a conceptual cleric who believes in balance above all else, that's fine, but I usually find that a really tricky character to play. Talk to your DM about it. I always let my characters stick to negative or positive based on their god or their belief, rather than having it change every time your alignment changes (and with neutral clerics, it seems to happen pretty awesome often*. They're extreme fellows, those clerics).

*How is it that I always type awesome in place of other words? Perhaps I should calm down.

[TopCheese]

Well, My advice would be to not be a theist cleric. Be an athiest cleric. A cleric need not be defined by his god, but what he is attached to. A cleric without a god is one who is close to being a god himself. The concepts are what give him power.

A cleric of fire and Protection is blessed by the torch-flame, which keeps enemies away. A cleric of time and death is the herald of the truth of limits. Nothing lasts forever, and through understanding that, each minute is cherished even more.


Making conceptual clerics is one of the most flavorful classes there are.

I also tend to play my Clerics a bit to 8 Bit Theater-ish.

[rockdeworld]

I also tend to play my Clerics a bit to 8 Bit Theater-ish.
Better a hammer-weilder than a healbot with no strength, or so I hear.

Anyway, in regards to the OP, I used to think TN was the most optimized alignment, until I realized that it effectively bars a cleric from casting Dictum or Holy Word, and doesn't help against Chaos Hammer or Blasphemy. And it only mitigates a few spells, so I've started to think the trade-off is not really worth it.

On the plus side for TN clerics: you get to choose cure or inflict, and have Fharlanghn (with Travel domain) as your deity.

[toapat]

Better a hammer-weilder than a healbot with no strength, or so I hear.

White Mage was a healer, not a cleric.

Cleric was the Aethist who stabbed Thief with a Healing Shiv given by the trickster raven god

anyway, God worship is for Paladins (Mystra specifically, she allows you to be LG, LE, or CG), all other gods are for moping around and being killed by the players.

[Lord Vukodlak]

In a pile of loot my party found a sword called the Apathy Whacker. It was a +2 Longsword that dealt +4d6 damage to true neutral creatures with an intelligence of 3 or higher.


On the plus side for TN clerics: you get to choose cure or inflict, and have Fharlanghn (with Travel domain) as your deity.
So does a lawful or chaotic netural cleric. Fharlanghn accepts clerics of any neutral alignment.

[Psyren]

The benefits of being extremely good or extremely evil far outweigh any benefits of neutrality. If you want a divine caster who believes in balance, play a Druid. Planar Ally would get Elementals for a neutral character.

This. And imo Good trumps since you can always go Malconvoker and still get the useful nasties, plus spontaneous curing beats spontaneous inflict at the end of the day when you have a bunch of low-level slots left over and a banged up party.

[Piggy Knowles]

This. And imo Good trumps since you can always go Malconvoker and still get the useful nasties, plus spontaneous curing beats spontaneous inflict at the end of the day when you have a bunch of low-level slots left over and a banged up party.

True, but on the other side of things, rebuking is way more useful than turning if you're willing to invest in it. (Of course, only dread necromancers use rebuking for their intended purposes, clerics are too busy feeding the Divine Metamagic machine...)

[Psyren]

True, but on the other side of things, rebuking is way more useful than turning if you're willing to invest in it. (Of course, only dread necromancers use rebuking for their intended purposes, clerics are too busy feeding the Divine Metamagic machine...)

You yourself provided the counterpoint - since the best use of turning/rebuking is neither to turn nor rebuke, that is much less of a deciding factor.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Spontaneous curing isn't really that important. Heal is not a cure spell and once combat is over wands or the vigor spells are more practical uses for healing as they'd use up less or no spell slots and Malconvoker only lets you ignore alignment restrictions for conjuration.(its also d4 and poor base attack not a good class for clerics)

Much can also depend on what your DM allows and how the campaign is.

If your DM doesn't allow divine metamagic.(a very sane choice). Turning vs rebuking becomes a little more important. A swarm of low to mid HD shadows or wraiths can be quite the hassle to a mid level party.

Presuming you don't have the level to outright destroy or control them sending them fleeing means they'll just go deeper into the dungeon and possible be encountered in an even larger group then before. Rebuking will make them cower and allow the rest of the party to dispatch them while the cleric hangs back.

On the other hand so much of what one fights in D&D tends to be evil aligned. (even if one or two party members are evil themselves). So Holy Word would in general be more useful then blasphemy, dictim or word of chaos. Unless its an evil campaign but then you need to be evil. Evil Clerics can also use animate dead to provide useful meatshields.

If your DM allows Consumption Field then evil has a real edge.

[Mephit]

In a pile of loot my party found a sword called the Apathy Whacker. It was a +2 Longsword that dealt +4d6 damage to true neutral creatures with an intelligence of 3 or higher.

How many times do you come into conflict with TN NPCs? :smallconfused:



If your DM doesn't allow divine metamagic.(a very sane choice)

There's nothing inherently broken about Divine Metamagic. It's powerful, but not gamebreaking. It only gets stupid if you're allowed to stack Nightsticks/similar shenanigans.

[Flickerdart]

There's nothing inherently broken about Divine Metamagic. It's powerful, but not gamebreaking. It only gets stupid if you're allowed to stack Nightsticks/similar shenanigans.
Allowing players to cast spells of a level they have no business casting is broken. Metamagic Song, the Bard equivalent, very sanely puts a cap on the effective level of the spell equal to the level the character can normally cast.

[Piggy Knowles]

Allowing players to cast spells of a level they have no business casting is broken. Metamagic Song, the Bard equivalent, very sanely puts a cap on the effective level of the spell equal to the level the character can normally cast.

In games I run, I houserule DMM to have this same cap. It's a fairly clean and straightforward solution that seemed to work fine for the one cleric in my last campaign - he was still an effective and powerful caster, and he still made use of DMM, but he wasn't an invincible stack of buffs.

[Lord Vukodlak]

How many times do you come into conflict with TN NPCs? :smallconfused: Almost never to further expaned on the weapon
+4d6 vs True Neutral
+1d6 vs Chaotic/Lawful Neutral.

Part of the story was there was a war between good and evil in this valley hundreds of years ago. The followers of the God of Tyrants wanted to expanded north, the followers of the God of Justice wanted to liberate the south. A third group caught in the middle resented the expansion of either and tried to stop it.

It was inspired by a discussion that while there are plenty of weapons against law, chaos, good or evil. There is nothing for apathy but why not extremists hate neutrality almost as much as the other extreme.


There's nothing inherently broken about Divine Metamagic. It's powerful, but not gamebreaking. It only gets stupid if you're allowed to stack Nightsticks/similar shenanigans. Given the power clerics have using only the PHB and DMG. Clerics don't need the boost. Some DM's houserule some power out of it like the above poster. Others disallow it entirely.