Overcoming Windwall with a longbow

[alanek2002]

As per the title. Any way an Archer type Character could get through by themselves? It just doesn't seem right that arrows with epic enhancements can be deflected by a level three spell. Magic items allowed, magic bow/arrows allowed, but no, force enhancement not going to work.
Level: Air 2, Clr 3, Drd 3, Rgr 2, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: Wall up to 10 ft./level long and 5 ft./level high (S)
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes


An invisible vertical curtain of wind appears. It is 2 feet thick and of considerable strength. It is a roaring blast sufficient to blow away any bird smaller than an eagle, or tear papers and similar materials from unsuspecting hands. (A Reflex save allows a creature to maintain its grasp on an object.) Tiny and Small flying creatures cannot pass through the barrier. Loose materials and cloth garments fly upward when caught in a wind wall. Arrows and bolts are deflected upward and miss, while any other normal ranged weapon passing through the wall has a 30% miss chance. (A giant-thrown boulder, a siege engine projectile, and other massive ranged weapons are not affected.) Gases, most gaseous breath weapons, and creatures in gaseous form cannot pass through the wall (although it is no barrier to incorporeal creatures).

[TuggyNE]

I seem to recall a spell named wind tunnel or something, but I believe it's on the Cleric list.

However, wind wall is classically considered rather messed up for this exact reason: it requires inordinate effort to bypass it, and almost no effort at all to set it up.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Just treat the Wind Wall as you would any other wall, just move to the side to shoot around it.

[Necrovosh]

Well, from the DMG (pg 100) "Ballista: A ballista is essentially a Huge heavy crossbow..."

So, by that (sort of shaky) logic, all you would need is a set of Strongarm Bracers (MIC pg 139) which let you "wield weapons as if you were one size
category larger than normal. (You don’t take any penalty when using weapons as normal for your size.)..." and some way to cast Enlarge Person or manifest Expansion. Then, with your trusty Large heavy crossbow(or similar weapon, really, as arrows tend to mass only somewhat less than bolts), and a little magic, you're firing bolts the size or siege weaponry.

Beyond that, some manner of dispelling might be useful, as from a UMD'd Wand of Dispel Magic. +7 to the dispel check if you nab it from a druid or bard, vs DC 16+ (unless they're Air clerics) gives you a semi decent chance of knocking down their wall.

Otherwise, some form of flight or elevation enhancement should be available to you by the time people are slinging third level spells, and the wall is only 5 ft high/ lvl (kind of puny for a wall of wind, really.) You can out-fly that with a single round's running. Pick up an Amber Amulet of Vermin: Giant Wasp. 800 GP is a steal for a full min of flying mount, or buy a hippogriff for 4k.

[Namfuak]

while any other normal ranged weapon passing through the wall has a 30% miss chance

Does that mean that if one were to try to move a longbow through the wall, there is a thirty percent chance they will miss the wall?

Depending on how you interpret "Arrows and bolts...miss," anything that negates miss chances could work, such as a seeking enhancement, since that is effectively a 100% miss chance. An arcane archer could imbue an arrow with anti magic field, so as it approaches the wall the wall recedes.

[avr]

The bit about arrows or bolts being automatically deflected but other normal ranged weapons getting a 30% miss chance suggests that carrying a few javelins is the really cheap way of firing thru the wall.

[Psyren]

As per the title. Any way an Archer type Character could get through by themselves?

Dispel it if you have magic, shoot around it if you don't. Working as intended.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Force enhancement for bows in MIC lets you get around it, as then your arrows are bolts of pure force and no longer arrows.

And yes, this spell is one of the most bs things in the entire game. At least you're not playing in PF. Those geniuses thought making a spell like wind wall that instead puts up spheres of wind walls around targets (ie, "walking around" is no longer an option)....*and* lets their shots ignore the wind wall...was a good idea. And it's only a level or 2 higher, too! I think it's 3rd level for rangers, so you could even get it on a friggin' wand. Fickle Winds....ugh....Nothing more fun than feeling the need to have a "mutually assured destruction" agreement not to use a blatantly brokenly overpowered spell with your DM in order for your character to not become obsolete by mid levels.....as a character who isn't even really much of a spellcaster (ranger).

[JaronK]

Huge weapons auto-ignore Wind Wall (because that's what siege weapons are) so a Half Minotaur archer with Strong Arm Bracers has no trouble. Or you just ride a nice flying mount, which flies around the wall and gives you a clear shot. At higher levels, you do the flying yourself. Teleportation abilities can also work for this.

JaronK

[Curmudgeon]

Huge weapons auto-ignore Wind Wall (because that's what siege weapons are)
You're over-reaching there. Only those Huge weapons which specifically are called out as siege weapons can punch through Wind Wall. Other random Huge ranged weapons are still affected by the spell. Shortbow and longbow projectiles of Huge size are rather less damaging than heavy crossbow bolts of that size (which is the minimum size for a siege engine projectile), so they obviously still get deflected.

You'll need to find a siege engine which shoots ordinary arrows, and which specifies the size of those arrows.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The problem is that the arrows aren't larger, then. Look at the weapons table. Damage is determined by the size of the launcher, not the projectile. Arrows are the same in terms of cost/weight no matter what size bow is shooting them, by RAW, as far as I know.

In any case, the enlarge person part of the solution absolutely does not work. Enlarge Person explicitly says objects that leave your possession re-size (but bows don't care b/c damage is based on launcher size for projectiles).

Overcoming Wind Wall with sheer size isn't so easy, even if your DM allows to treat them like siege weapons, which while reasonable, is not RAW. I sure would be pissed if I was playing a monk, a cloud giant shot an arrow at me, and the DM told me my Deflect Arrows feat does nothing b/c the arrow "is the size of a ballista bolt", the flipside to your argument.

And walking around it is not always so easy in a game titled dungeons and dragons.

[JaronK]

Well, we know a Huge Crossbow is a Ballista and does the trick (it's exactly the same weapon). Since it refers to "other massive ranged weapons" we know it's not just siege weapons, but rather other things of that size (or larger). Now, a longbow arrow is a LOT bigger than a crossbow bolt. So that would imply that if a Huge Crossbow does the trick, a Huge Longbow should too.

It's not "only those Huge weapons which specifically are called out as siege weapons." It's weapons called out as siege weapons AND "other massive ranged weapons."

JaronK

[Curmudgeon]

Since it refers to "other massive ranged weapons" we know it's not just siege weapons, but rather other things of that size (or larger). Now, a longbow arrow is a LOT bigger than a crossbow bolt. So that would imply that if a Huge Crossbow does the trick, a Huge Longbow should too.
Why are you talking about ranged weapon ammunition when the spell refers to "massive ranged weapons"? A siege engine projectile punches through Wind Wall because the spell says so. The spell also says that "other massive ranged weapons" can be unaffected by the spell. A longbow is nowhere near as massive as a heavy crossbow of the same size, and doesn't generate comparable force to its projectile (as shown by doing substantially less average damage).

It's always good to pay attention to the actual words used in the rules.

[JaronK]

...Siege Weapons use ammunition. You know that, right? And you know it's the ammunition that goes through the wall, not the weapon itself, and that all the examples given are of ammunition? Also, you know that ammunition counts as a weapon, right? Also, a (huge) longbow arrow weighs 2/3th of a pound, while bolts weigh 2/5th.

Seriously, do you think Wind Wall cares about the weight of the weapon, not the ammunition? Fine, put a 20 lead weight on the bottom of your small longbow, now it shoots through just fine. Sounds great.

JaronK

[ericgrau]

Protection from evil is a 1st level spell that easily bypasses the 9th level spell dominate monster. Yet domination is nonetheless very powerful and protection from evil is far from the top of the list among 1st level spells. This is the nature of overly specific defenses; being useful only part of the time isn't that spectacular.

First it is unlikely that the caster will prepare wind wall in the first place, because archers are not the only foe in the universe. Second there are many ways around it even when he does. Move through it or to the side. Switch targets. At mid levels pop some form of teleportation. At epic levels crack out a staff of disjunction or greater dispel magic or etc. Third, as a high dex character you might go first and you might stop it before it ever happens such as readying to disrupt casting.

In fact windwall is one of the weakest spells there is and it isn't much to worry about. It appears 99% of the time in theoretical discussions as a bragging point against archers. For actual practical use it is severely lacking. If you are high level or epic and very rich then maybe prepare some of the above mentioned counters but don't spend much gold or thought on it.

[TuggyNE]

Force enhancement for bows in MIC lets you get around it, as then your arrows are bolts of pure force and no longer arrows.

The OP mentioned this had been (house-)ruled away.

[Reynard]

The OP mentioned this had been (house-)ruled away.

If that's the case, then trying to find other, more rules-interpretation based methods is likely to be a waste of time. your best bet really is going to have to be to move around the wall.

[Lord Vukodlak]

One possible solution is to create a new weapon special ability that lets the arrows ignore prevailing wind.

Those geniuses thought making a spell like wind wall that instead puts up spheres of wind walls around targets (ie, "walking around" is no longer an option)....*and* lets their shots ignore the wind wall...was a good idea. And it's only a level or 2 higher, too! I think it's 3rd level for rangers, so you could even get it on a friggin' wand. Fickle Winds....ugh....Nothing more fun than feeling the need to have a "mutually assured destruction" agreement not to use a blatantly brokenly overpowered spell with your DM in order for your character to not become obsolete by mid levels.....as a character who isn't even really much of a spellcaster (ranger).
Thats not what wind wall does in pathfinder so what spell are you refering to. Is it from a 3rd party book not published by paizo? It can't be Cloak of Winds because that only gives a -4 penalty. I don't have a mountain of pathfinder books.

[Alefiend]

If you're outdoors, use indirect fire. Shoot over the wind wall, not through it. The GM might assign a penalty (-2 or -4, in addition to any range penalties) to the attack, but in good conscience cannot disallow it—this is one of the things bows do very well in trained hands.

[Curmudgeon]

Seriously, do you think Wind Wall cares about the weight of the weapon, not the ammunition? Fine, put a 20 lead weight on the bottom of your small longbow, now it shoots through just fine.
Yes, the spell says it cares about massive ranged weapons, not simply massive ammunition. You can certainly try to add a lead weight to your longbow and look for a DM who thinks that will improve your performance. Good luck with that. :smallamused:

[JaronK]

...That's the silliest idea I've heard from you yet, I think. Remember, here's what it says:


A giant-thrown boulder, a siege engine projectile, and other massive ranged weapons are not affected.

Note it's talking about the projectiles, not the projectile launchers. Or do you think "a siege engine projectile" and "a giant-thrown boulder" are the launcher? Or is it that you think an arrow is not a weapon?

The fact is, a huge longbow arrow is significantly heavier than a ballista bolt (nearly twice as heavy, in fact), in addition to being much longer. It is, thus, far more massive than a siege weapon shot (at least one kind of siege weapon). That makes it an "other massive ranged weapon."

What else do you think that line could possibly mean, by RAW?

JaronK

[Togo]

Get a longbow with the bloodseeking enhancement (Complete adventurer p134). That allows you to fire around the wall, but still hit the target, at the cost of giving him concealment.

Now add the seeking enchancement (DMG), to ignore concealment.

[Curmudgeon]

Note it's talking about the projectiles, not the projectile launchers. The rules make a clear distinction between weapons and ammunition. An arrow is only considered a weapon in an improvised fashion, and then only for melee.
A giant-thrown boulder, a siege engine projectile, and other massive ranged weapons are not affected.
Specifically, this is talking about

an example of a massive thrown weapon
a specific category of projectile (most massive, but some not)
and other massive ranged weapons
A reasonable assumption is that "massive" was referring to things like catapult loads, and the lightest siege engine ammunition was only included categorically. That means that "and other" category would need to be another thrown weapon, such as a leather bag holding 10,000 gp (200 lbs.) -- much more massive than a Huge heavy crossbow bolt. This leaves out longbow arrows on both counts: not massive, and not in the category of siege engine projectiles.

[JaronK]

1: "Other" in this context implies that the first two are examples of "massive ranged weapons." Do you understand this, or do we have to break out the dictionary? If I say "I like apples, bananas, and other tasty fruit" do you see that the other implies that apples and bananas are examples of tasty fruit? And thus, do you see that a ballista bolt counts as a "massive ranged weapon"?

2: If a ballista bolt counts as an example of a "massive ranged weapon", and it's less massive than a longbow arrow, the longbow arrow must also be in that category, right? Or do you not understand that concept?

3: Ammunition is on the "weapons" table. Do you notice this, or do you believe that things found on the weapons table are not, in fact, weapons? You claim "The rules make a clear distinction between weapons and ammunition." But that's not true... ammunition is a subcategory of weapons. As proof, I offer the PHB weapons table. I also offer the line "A giant-thrown boulder, a siege engine projectile, and other massive ranged weapons are not affected." There a ballista bolt is clear a "massive ranged weapon" because of the word "other." Now, what's your proof that the rules make a clear distinction between weapons and ammunition? Where do the rules say "ammunition is not a subcategory of weapons" or similar?

Which part confuses you? Part 1, part 2, or part 3? Or are you just being stubborn at this point? And just making up rules about ammunition not being a weapon?

JaronK

[Alefiend]

You can certainly try to add a lead weight to your longbow and look for a DM who thinks that will improve your performance. Good luck with that. :smallamused:

Not to derail the thread, or give any credence to the idea that the weight of the launcher matters, but IRL competition archers do add weights to their bows to improve performance. It helps to stabilize them, making them more accurate.

The notion that weighing down a launcher would make its projectiles better able to pierce a wind wall is ludicrous.

[JaronK]

The notion that weighing down a launcher would make its projectiles better able to pierce a wind wall is ludicrous.

Agreed, but evidently Curmudgeon thinks it's the weight of the launcher, not the ammunition, that matters to Wind Wall. Because evidently arrows aren't weapons.

*shrug*

JaronK

[StreamOfTheSky]

Thats not what wind wall does in pathfinder so what spell are you refering to. Is it from a 3rd party book not published by paizo? It can't be Cloak of Winds because that only gives a -4 penalty. I don't have a mountain of pathfinder books.

The spell I mentioned. Fickle Winds. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/fickle-winds

@Eric: And when I can turn an enemy into my mind slave by shooting him with an arrow, I will no longer care that there are "overly specific defenses" that can completely shut me down.

[Larkas]

The spell I mentioned. Fickle Winds. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/fickle-winds

... That is just plain stupid.

EDIT: Did you see the spell duration? BEYOND stupid, I say.

[killem2]

Is it possible to enchant an arrow with dispel magic? Would it go off?

[Cieyrin]

... That is just plain stupid.

EDIT: Did you see the spell duration? BEYOND stupid, I say.

Not quite as stupid as suggested, they're cylinders, not spheres, so if you can get above them, not an issue. Considering it's a 5th level spell, everybody should have a source of flight available, so it's again a game of cat and mouse.


Is it possible to enchant an arrow with dispel magic? Would it go off?

Arcane Archers can Imbue an arrow with an Area Dispel. One of the few reasons to dip it in 3.5, given you can't enchant a missile weapon or arrow with Spell Storing, which would only do the targeted version, anyways.

[Larkas]

Not quite as stupid as suggested, they're cylinders, not spheres, so if you can get above them, not an issue. Considering it's a 5th level spell, everybody should have a source of flight available, so it's again a game of cat and mouse.

Indeed, but still. With a height of 5ft./level, you'd pretty much have to be directly above the caster at all times. Not the best course of action, and hard to maintain if you don't have perfect maneuverability. I think it's best to rely on force/some-kind-of-ethereal arrows.

[Cieyrin]

Indeed, but still. With a height of 5ft./level, you'd pretty much have to be directly above the caster at all times. Not the best course of action, and hard to maintain if you don't have perfect maneuverability. I think it's best to rely on force/some-kind-of-ethereal arrows.

Good is, coincidentally, good enough, as it lets you hover, which the Fly spell and magic items based on it tend to offer. Travel Devotion is, as it often is, helps immensely with maneuvering into position before unleashing an onslaught, though there are other alternatives, like Hustle, so it's a matter of getting the right details in place, as it helps with things besides Wind Wall, like Walls of Force or Stone, which stops more than force arrows.

Also, while a pain, having to think in encounters to deal with difficult situations isn't a bad thing. If opponents regularly spam Windwalls, that says more about your DM or fellow players not working with you, because unless you're fighting a villain whose either paranoid about archers or wants to counter you specifically, it's kinda dickish to have every opponent have a Wind Wall on hand.

[Draz74]

Force enhancement for bows in MIC lets you get around it, as then your arrows are bolts of pure force and no longer arrows.

Ignoring the part where


The OP mentioned this had been (house-)ruled away.

... I've never quite seen the logic of this interpretation. I want to; I like archers better than wizards. But I don't see where the RAW imply or state that arrows are no longer "arrows" just because they're made of pure force.

[animewatcha]

Splitting enchantment + exploding arrows + arrowsplit or whatever that ranger spell is + luck factor on your surroundings..

In a dungeon/room with windwall? Launch an explosive arrow ( which turns into 1d4+1 and gets doubled due to above ) into the ceiling over the point of origin. Blowing the ceiling into enough pieces ( big and small ) that they might be big ( and be enough in amount ) to block line of effect for windwall. Also handy for dungeon bypass.