Spells to shut down casters

[Solophoenix]

So, as a Sorcerer, I have a multitude of low level options for dealing with big dumb melee types, and to a lesser extent, archer/thrower types. What are the low level killer spells to use against other arcanists?

So far, I can think of:

1st:
Buzzing Bee
Wall of Smoke (to some extent)

2nd:
Blindness/Deafness
Cloud of Bewilderment

[Chilingsworth]

Most of these wont be an instant shut down, but if you reduce your foe's stats enough (or reduce their actions economy,) they will be screwed. To wit:

1st: Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Clumsiness

2nd: Shadow Spray, Phantasmal Assailants, Touch of Idiocy, Ray of Ice, Ray of Stupidity, web, Kelore's Grave Mist

3rd: Ray of Dizziness

4th: ???

5th: Feeblemind

6th: Ray of Entropy

[docnessuno]

Ray of enfeeblement.

Whan you get into the 10-11 str penality range, it will shut down most humanoid casters in one shot (good luck standing or even moving a finger with str 1).

Edit: Swordsaged :smallmad:

[theMycon]

Ray of enfeeblement.

Whan you get into the 10-11 str penality range, it will shut down most humanoid casters in one shot (good luck standing or even moving a finger with str 1).


NOTE: If you ever DO you Ray of Enfeeblement, don't bring up encumbrance penalties with your DM. You'll likely find that none of your characters should have been able to walk since level 5.

[Fates]

Dispel magic, greater dispel magic, antimagic field. You know the drill.

Aside from the obvious choices, glitterdust is just awesome against everybody. It blinds them in a burst, and makes it impossible for them to hide. I always choose it instead of blindness/deafness.

Stinking cloud. Stinking cloud is amazing. It creates an ever-growing area in which, every round, everyone within needs to make a fortitude save or do nothing but throw up and run away from the spell for the remainder of the duration. In my experience, this is particularly awesome against casters, but it's really just one of the most solid 3rd-level spells out there. The only issue is that there are a lot of things immune/resistant to nausea effects.

[Piggy Knowles]

Dweomer of Transference, XPH. Neat little mid-level immunity to spells.

[Solophoenix]

Glitterdust would be better than Blindness for this particular purpose, if not for the fact that it targets Will, which is usually a caster's good save.

Ray of Enfeeblement does a maximum STR penalty of 11, and you have to be CL 10 to get that, at which point, you have better options. Also, it cannot drop the stat below one, which for most NPC casters, isn't going to make much difference unless they're carrying more than 3lb (reduces their move speed) or 10lb (no moving at all). They can still cast spells just fine.

Stinking Cloud is great, which is why Cloud of Bewilderment (Stinking Cloud Junior) is on my list.

EDIT:

Dweomer of Transference, XPH. Neat little mid-level immunity to spells.

That only works on psionic creatures. Not much use to the average arcane caster.

[Piggy Knowles]

True, but being "psionic" is only one feat away, and it stops pretty much EVERYTHING - targeted spells, AoE, etc.

[Solophoenix]

It also has a 1 minute casting time and a 1 round/level duration. It is not practical for use in combat.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Black Tentacles, Stranglekelp, Summon Monster for a big scorpion, and anything else that grapples.

(Potion of) Snowsight + Obscuring Snow, but that shuts down everything.

Wall of Smoke is a superb choice as it can be cast across occupied squares as a Stinking Cloud Lite. Stinking Cloud is also pretty good.

Streamers from Shining South, do it.


On the topic of Sorcerers, you should get Ancestral Relic (BoED) and make it a custom Runestaff (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20070216a) (MIC p224) with whatever spells you want on it. If your party would sell junk loot for half value, buy it from the party pool for that price, and you'll get a portion of that cost back when the cash is split. Sacrifice the full value of that junk loot into your relic to increase its upgrade potential, so you'll get to upgrade it for less than half price. You can even switch what spells the Runestaff contains each time you upgrade it. Since a Runestaff is a quarterstaff, later on you can make each end +1 Defending and put Greater Magic Weapon on each, and keep those bonuses applied to your AC.

[Solophoenix]

The problem with Summon Monster is that at level 1 and 2, without Augment Summoning, the best grapple mod you can get is +7. Not to mention the full round action it takes to cast.

I'm only really looking for level 1 and 2 options, as there are a bunch once you hit third and higher.

I would just go with Cloud of Bewilderment, but for the short range, and the fact that I'd feel silly taking Stinking Cloud two levels later.

Sadly, very little seems to target Fort or Reflex that also would prevent a caster from casting.

EDIT: Having read through Buzzing Bee again, I think I'm gonna go with it as my low level anti-caster option. Doesn't care about saves, only about concentration ranks and con modifier.

[ericgrau]

Often the best option is to simply ready an action to disrupt casting and pop him with a magic missile or scorching ray. You're certain to hit or much more likely to hit than a spell with a save.

Web is nice because if you stick him at the far side you can block line of effect for his spells. Then it's a difficult strength check to move.

Sleet storm is nice because it's bad weather forcing concentration checks and the lack of vision will make most of his spells impossible to use regardless of his check. It's also a huge area meaning you can delay the non-casters too while your party gangs up on their buddy.

Most crowd control helps one way or another, and the nice thing is that you can prepare the same spells for all foes in general.

[Fates]

Well...Web is always a good option.

Gah! Swordsaged! :smallfrown:

[Jack_Simth]

I'm only really looking for level 1 and 2 options, as there are a bunch once you hit third and higher.Levels 1 and 2?
Well,
Cloud of Bewilderment: Fort save, unable to cast (move actions only).
Glitterdust: Will save, blind (makes it really difficult to target things with spells - see Blindness/Deafness spell)
Blindness/Deafness Fort save: Deafness invokes a 20% failure chance on spells, Blindness prevents targetted spells, gives a hefty penalty to ray and touch spells - 50% miss chance - and makes picking areas for area spells tricky. Yes, they can still cast, but it's a lot harder to do.
Web: Total Cover if there's 20 feet of web between your target and you (which prevents all casting that would affect you). Entangled, no save - which forces a concentration check (DC 15+spell level) to successfully cast anything.
Summon Swarm: Swarms deal continuous damage, which forces concentration checks (10+1/2 damage dealt + spell level - not much, but eh), have the Distraction special quality (save or be nauseated, which prevents casting), and have rider effects (poison, disease, or bleeding). Main downsides are the Concentration to maintain and the casting time.
Touch of Idiocy: Hit the caster enough times, and they can't cast anymore.
Ghoul Touch: Paralysis prevents casting, genrally.
Scare: If someone's Paniced, they're not casting spells at you.
Pyrotechnics: Fireworks and Smoke Cloud can both produce blinding - see Blindness/Deafness for the results.

1st level:
Charm Person. They don't cast mean spells at their good friend!
Animate Rope: Can be used to entangle a target, which forces Concentration checks to be able to cast.

And, of course, readied actions to disrupt spellcasting. Direct damage forces concentration checks - 10 + damage dealt + spell level - which gets fairly nasty, especially at low levels.

[ericgrau]

Summon swarm is concentration plus two rounds, so I often only let it last two rounds so I can do other things. The casting time does make it more easy to disrupt but unless your enemy favors magic missile you can usually stand in the back and cast it. Probably not my first choice, but it could be my second.

If you're only level 4-5 then flaming sphere is an efficient spell at that level for the damage over time and it can likewise force multiple concentration checks.

[Deophaun]

Though much better as a scroll for a sorcerer, Khelben's suspended silence in Magic of Faerun has great potential.

Not a fan of buzzing bee because what caster hasn't put max ranks into Concentration?

What about readying an action to cast scorching ray at anyone casting a spell?

[shadow_archmagi]

Solid Fog effectively shuts down casters, at least insofar as that it denies them line of sight and prevents them from moving.

[Solophoenix]

I have max ranks in concentration and a positive CON mod, and if I cast buzzing bee on myself, the DC is high enough that I would have less than a 50% chance of successfully casting another 1st level spell. I think that's a pretty good yard stick to measure by, and I'd call that a good deal for a 1st level spell slot.

[chaos_redefined]

I'm gonna put SMI back on the table, for the monstrous spider. It's web ability will prevent the target from moving, it can throw it every round, (up to 8/day), and you can have Boros the Strong and Faithful (BSF for short) threatening readied actions to hit him all day long.

Additionally, at later levels, the spell remains useful as "Produce short-lived disposable minion". Hell, I've used them as flank-buddies in combat when I'm low on spells. In comparison, Buzzing Bee only has a single use, and eventually stops being good at that. (May already not be that great at it now...)

[awa]

it does not look like silence has been mentioned stick it on an ally who readies an action to follow the wizard around every time they try and leave the effect.

This will seriously limit an enemy caster.

[Solophoenix]

it does not look like silence has been mentioned stick it on an ally who readies an action to follow the wizard around every time they try and leave the effect.

This will seriously limit an enemy caster.

Silence is not on the Sorc/Wiz spell list.

[ericgrau]

Concentration checks are harder to make early on than later because the DCs scale half as fast as the skill ranks do. For now buzzing bee is good against casters and he can always swap it out for something else later on when it isn't. The bigger issue is that it only has that one specific use and can't be used against anyone else. Generally you want spells to be useful in as many situations as possible. Damage and battlefield control are almost always useful.

[Solophoenix]

Buzzing bee also lets you track the location of invisible creatures, and imposes a move silently penalty, so is a nice counter to snipers.

[Deophaun]

I have max ranks in concentration and a positive CON mod, and if I cast buzzing bee on myself, the DC is high enough that I would have less than a 50% chance of successfully casting another 1st level spell. I think that's a pretty good yard stick to measure by, and I'd call that a good deal for a 1st level spell slot.
A caster with low enough levels for buzzing bee to be a problem is going to be outright killed by a scorching ray. A lesser orb of whatever is going to put a serious hurt on him as well, and will have a better shot at disrupting the spell. Point is, there are better and more flexible options.

Arcane Turmoil isn't a bad spell. At level 2, single-target dispel to remove any buffs, and if they fail their Will save, you take out one of their highest unused slots as a bonus.

[awa]

huh your right would have sworn silence was a wizard spell

[KhaineGB]

Distract could be good at lower levels.

Will save, unfortunately, but gives -4 to Concentration, Listen, Search and Spot, plus the target can only take a standard action or a move action. Might help vs archer/sneaky types too... and even enemy fighters.

Mindless Rage could work too, but again... will save. However making a caster charge you to attack you physically might provoke AoO from your allies, which would be a pretty effective way to blend them.

Phantasmal Assailants might be of use too. Again, it's a will save... followed by a fort save, but it makes them lose 8 wis and 8 dex! (4 and 4 if fort save passes). Not that bad for level 2.

[Deophaun]

huh your right would have sworn silence was a wizard spell
the would be why I suggested Khelben's suspended silence. The delivery method is a bit trickier, and its active duration is only 6 rounds, but a few scrolls should suffice without having to devote a limited resource to learning it.

[ericgrau]

A caster with low enough levels for buzzing bee to be a problem is going to be outright killed by a scorching ray.
By 14 damage? Only if the enemy has 8-10 con or a much lower level than the OP. That might be half his health. At low levels ranged touch attacks are also a problem. Readying to disrupt with magic missile may be better until he gets 2 rays and a higher BAB for better odds. Even then if the foe has cover behind an ally, like most casters do, he'll be in trouble.

[JaronK]

Wings of Flurry is a great option. Admittedly it's fourth level, but it has the advantage of working on almost anything (caster or not). They can't cast spells when they're dazed or dead.

JaronK

[Story]

Arcane Turmoil isn't a bad spell. At level 2, single-target dispel to remove any buffs, and if they fail their Will save, you take out one of their highest unused slots as a bonus.

I've always wondered why people never mention Arcane Turmoil. Is it the range limitation, or just obscurity? Likewise, why do people just put Dispel Magic/Greater Dispel in their rings of counterspelling, while ignoring the half dozen other dispells out there?

[TroubleBrewing]

Fell Drain Sonic Snap hurts casters more than fighty-types, I'd say.

[Karoht]

Silence.
It can be cast upon a rock and thrown into the area of a caster.
If they don't have Silent Spell as a metamagic feat (or a rod) then they aren't casting anything.
If they are prepared casters and didn't prepare Silent versions of spells (and don't have a rod) they aren't casting anything. At best they are casting from a limited list of their spells.

Khelben's Suspended Silence, a spell from Faerun, allows you to stockpile stones that activate a Silence spell upon a command word. 50gp per stone. Carry a bag of marbles, all enchanted as such. Heck, the whole party should have a few of these if possible.


Globe of Invulnerability
Shut down casting below certain spell levels. Forces the targets to use their higher level spell slots against you. The catch then simply becomes having counters to those spell slots.
Say you want to fight a 8th level Wizard.
Bust out Globe of Invulnerability (Lesser) and stop his 1st-3rd level spells. If you know you can counter all of his 4th level spells, excellent.
If you combo it with Silence, now the wizard probably can't use those 4th level spell slots.
Happy Hunting.

[Story]

Fell Drain Sonic Snap hurts casters more than fighty-types, I'd say.

Well it hurts living casters anyway.


Silence.
It can be cast upon a rock and thrown into the area of a caster.
If they don't have Silent Spell as a metamagic feat (or a rod) then they aren't casting anything.
If they are prepared casters and didn't prepare Silent versions of spells (and don't have a rod) they aren't casting anything. At best they are casting from a limited list of their spells.


Or one of the PRCs that let's you spontaneously cast silent spells. Or a spellglyph. Or a silent scroll. Or they could just walk out of the silence area.

[Karoht]

Well it hurts living casters anyway.

Or one of the PRCs that let's you spontaneously cast silent spells. Or a scroll or wand. Or they could just walk out of the silence area.PRC's are not commonplace, and even if they were, not every caster will have that PRC. Walking out is still action economy. Also, there can be other reasons why the caster can't walk out of the silence area. First off, they might not know where the silence area ends as there is no visual on sound or lack of sound. Second, terrain might not make that viable, same with other enemies blocking potential escape routes. Follow up spells can assist with the containment and further action economy denial.
Scrolls still require activation, I couldn't find anything saying that they don't have verbal components. It does have to be read though, not sure how to interpret that.
Wands however...

Source: www.pathfindersrd.com
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Kind of hard to speak aloud and have the wand register it in a silenced area, depends on how strict the DM is.
Wands are expensive and have to fit into WBL. Forcing the caster to use a wand/scroll is potentially a victory in terms of resource expenditure, and it is likely that the wand/scroll resources will be inferior to that of the caster's own casting as they do not scale. The spell on the wand/scroll might not be applicable to solving the immediate problem. Wands can also be sundered/disarmed as can spellbooks and spell component belts though this is not always recommended.

[Unusual Muse]

What about the Spell Whose Name Must Not Be Mentioned? Power Word Pain (RotD): A 1st-level spell that not only forces casters to make a Concentration check every round they try to cast, but kills them while doing it. Insult AND injury!

[Karoht]

Sources I read state that Power Word Pain is supposed to be 4th level. And says nothing about forcing concentration, it just deals some damage. No differently than Acid Arrow. Acid Arrow + Dazing Spell? Pretty darned awesome, but very expensive.
If your source is dndtools, I think there may be a few inaccuracies.
PW: Distract causes the target to be flat footed.

Speaking of Metamagic, Magic Missile + Toppling Spell in Pathfinder is a decent combo. Sure, the caster can cast from the prone position without any extra difficulty, but then the caster is prone, which can lead to other problems like grapples and AoO's and whatnot.

Spiritual Weapon + Spiritual Ally + Toppling Spell = Quite a few attempts to knock someone prone, as a move and a swift action, for rounds/level. Lots of fun.

[Story]

A scroll only has verbal components if the spell has verbal components. And you can get scrolls of metamagiced spells.

As for wands, I was mistaken. You'll notice that I did go back and edit my post when I realized.

Anyway, they aren't that expensive, especially low level stuff like Benign Transposition.

[Arcanist]

NOTE: If you ever DO you Ray of Enfeeblement, don't bring up encumbrance penalties with your DM. You'll likely find that none of your characters should have been able to walk since level 5.

I actually focus on encumbrance for my characters... is that not the norm?

[Karoht]

A scroll only has verbal components if the spell has verbal components. And you can get scrolls of metamagiced spells.I have rarely seen anyone buy metamagic scrolls, though if we are talking about wizards who start with the feat Scribe Scroll, it stands to reason they would keep a few as backup. I agree.


As for wands, I was mistaken. You'll notice that I did go back and edit my post when I realized.
Anyway, they aren't that expensive, especially low level stuff like Benign Transposition.Indeed. One wand is not expensive. A few wands are not expensive. But it isn't likely that a caster is going to carry around that many wands. And even so, the spells [typically] don't scale, so the DC's are lower, the damage is lower, etc. If you're forcing a caster onto poor resources, you've still increased your odds of survival versus this caster. At which point, you are effectively fighting a lower level caster than the one you started with.

[JaronK]

Sources I read state that Power Word Pain is supposed to be 4th level.

No, but the spell is pretty much worthless against people by the time you have third level spells. It's not a very good spell... it only kills people you could have killed faster with another spell anyway.


And says nothing about forcing concentration, it just deals some damage.

Damage over time forces concentration checks to cast. It's not unique to Power Word Pain.

JaronK

[Karoht]

Damage over time forces concentration checks to cast. It's not unique to Power Word Pain.
JaronK
So you are saying that Acid Arrow, a second level spell that deals double the damage of PW Pain, forces a concentration check in addition to the damage every round?

[Story]

Taking damage during casting always forces a concentration check. However, since Acid Arrow is considered continuous damage, it is halved for purposes of determining DC.


If while trying to cast a spell you take damage, you must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + points of damage taken + the level of the spell you’re casting). If you fail the check, you lose the spell without effect. The interrupting event strikes during spellcasting if it comes between when you start and when you complete a spell (for a spell with a casting time of 1 full round or more) or if it comes in response to your casting the spell (such as an attack of opportunity provoked by the spell or a contingent attack, such as a readied action).

If you are taking continuous damage half the damage is considered to take place while you are casting a spell. You must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + ½ the damage that the continuous source last dealt + the level of the spell you’re casting). If the last damage dealt was the last damage that the effect could deal then the damage is over, and it does not distract you.

Repeated damage does not count as continuous damage.

[Jack_Simth]

Sources I read state that Power Word Pain is supposed to be 4th level. That... may be what it's supposed to be, but it shows up in Races of the Dragon, page 116, as a 1st level spell. Useful for low-level casters doing hit-and-runs, useful at low-levels for getting the "Taking continuous damage" clause for Concentration checks, not so useful for other things.

[Eldariel]

NOTE: If you ever DO you Ray of Enfeeblement, don't bring up encumbrance penalties with your DM. You'll likely find that none of your characters should have been able to walk since level 5.

Wait...there are level 5 characters without Heward's Handy Haversack?

[Karoht]

Or... a Shax's Indispensible Haversack?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101


Yeah, I've run with a surprising number of DM's who just never pay any attention to carrying capacity. At least not until it matters. Like when a group of characters is trying to steal an entire bridge made of gold worth 2 million GP. Then they care.

[Story]

I pay attention to encumbrance even though I doubt the DM cares. I figure as the most optimized character in the party, I might as well follow the rules. And with 6 strength and no haversack, it's almost like a real handicap.

[TroubleBrewing]

I'm guessing it's almost a handicap because donkeys are 8gp.

[Jack_Simth]

I'm guessing it's almost a handicap because donkeys are 8gp.

Yeah, but then you need to feed it, take care of it, keep it out of AoO's, and invest skill ranks in Handle Animal (you may have dumped Charisma, and you may want to occasionally give it an order in combat).

[JaronK]

...Even with Charisma dumped, you can still buy a nice donkey. They're already trained, so you don't need a lot of handle animal. You don't bring it close to the party, of course. It's just there to haul loot, carry your bedrolls and extra food, and so on. It should be nowhere near a fight, certainly not in AoE range! I usually ride a warhorse and just keep the mule behind on a rope (I prefer mules, but some campaigns might change that).

JaronK

[Jack_Simth]

...Even with Charisma dumped, you can still buy a nice donkey. They're already trained, so you don't need a lot of handle animal. You don't bring it close to the party, of course. It's just there to haul loot, carry your bedrolls and extra food, and so on. It should be nowhere near a fight, certainly not in AoE range! I usually ride a warhorse and just keep the mule behind on a rope (I prefer mules, but some campaigns might change that).

JaronK
You need to be able to reliably beat DC 10 to get them to do trained tricks.

At level 1, with a Charisma of 6 (Dwarven Wizard on a point buy, say), that means you need two ranks to make DC 10 by taking ten. About 15-20% of your skill points.

Sure, it's not too much of an investment, but it is an investment.

... although I suppose the sarcasm in my post doesn't come through too well in a text medium, does it?

[JaronK]

Eh, if all you want the donkey/mule to do is follow you and then stay put when you want, you don't need to get it on a take 10. Failure just means the donkey looks at you all annoyed like for a round.

Frankly, I think the imagine of a pissed off drunken dwarf swearing at his donkey to behave for once sounds fun!

JaronK