retroactive prestige classes

[lunar2]

some prestige classes, such as blackguard and defiant, allow you to trade in certain class levels to retroactively gain prestige class levels from before you qualified for the class, possibly as far back as level 1. some, like blackguard, don't even specifically limit you to ten levels traded (so a blackguard 20 is theoretically possible, although very cheesy).

question: besides blackguard and defiant, what PRCs can you do this with, and which ones are actually worth getting in this manner. neither blackguard nor defiant seem particularly powerful, but are there any that would actually be good for 1-10 (or even 1-18 with legacy champion, and 1-20 with trade in cheese)?

[Flickerdart]

You can't take 20 levels of Blackguard, because there aren't that many. You'd have to be an Epic Blackguard, which would require you to have 21 character levels to start with, and merely gives you 2 extra uses of Smite Good and +3d6 SA, so it's a hideous waste of your time.

[lunar2]

the blackguard's entry on ex paladins simply states that you gain a blackguard level for each paladin level you trade in. it does not limit you to trading in 9 or less paladin levels. cheesy? absolutely. waste of time? probably, unless you just want a half caster with a full caster level. doable? unless the DM says no.

[Flickerdart]

the blackguard's entry on ex paladins simply states that you gain a blackguard level for each paladin level you trade in. it does not limit you to trading in 9 or less paladin levels. cheesy? absolutely. waste of time? probably, unless you just want a half caster with a full caster level. doable? unless the DM says no.
I'm aware of what the entry says. But there are no blackguard levels past 10 for you to receive unless you are epic and can thus gain epic blackguard levels.

[AuraTwilight]

Or you could just slap on additional level as if it were epic (but really isn't) and say you got 20 levels. It's NOT DIFFICULT.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Or you could just slap on additional level as if it were epic (but really isn't) and say you got 20 levels. It's NOT DIFFICULT.

You can't, though, there are rules specifically prohibiting it:
A ten-level prestige class can progress beyond 10th level, but only if the character level is already 20th or higher. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm)

You could go Paladin 21+, fall, and trade it all in for Blackguard 21+, but you would have to be at least 21st level to gain more than ten levels of Blackguard by any means whatsoever.

[Flickerdart]

Or you could just slap on additional level as if it were epic (but really isn't) and say you got 20 levels. It's NOT DIFFICULT.
If you could go around slapping things on things as if you were things without actually being those things, you wouldn't have much of a game system.

[Fates]

Or you could just slap on additional level as if it were epic (but really isn't) and say you got 20 levels. It's NOT DIFFICULT.

Good sir...I can't even come up with a witty response to this, but suffice to say, it's not something a player can do. Only the DM can slap the rules around like that.

[Hirax]

merely gives you 2 extra uses of Smite Good and +3d6 SA, so it's a hideous waste of your time.

Pretty much this. Generally, few prestige classes offer a worthwhile epic progression of class features, the only incentive to go beyond level 10 is epic feats. However, you wouldn't be getting the epic feats in this case because you wouldn't qualify for them. You'd be better off as a blackguard10/fighter10 than as a blackguard20. The fighter levels wouldn't really change your character fluff, and you'd get way more use out of the feats than +2 smites and +3d6 SA.

[karkus]

Ex-Samurais are called "Ronin," I believe. It's pretty much just an Asian version of the Paladin/Blackguard relationship, but instead of Good/Evil, it's more directed towards the Law/Chaos axis.

(I didn't want to say "Oriental version," because that implies that it is from Oriental Adventures. I don't know if the Samurai is in that book or not, but you can definitely find both the Sam. base class and Ronin PrC in Complete Warrior.)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I just realized, this too (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a):

Fallen Paladins
A blackguard who trades in more than ten levels of paladin can gain more than ten levels of blackguard, but only if his character level is 21st or higher.

[AuraTwilight]

Good sir...I can't even come up with a witty response to this, but suffice to say, it's not something a player can do. Only the DM can slap the rules around like that.

That kind of goes without saying, given that a DM has to pretty much approve everything a player does, ultimately.


You can't, though, there are rules specifically prohibiting it:
A ten-level prestige class can progress beyond 10th level, but only if the character level is already 20th or higher.

You could go Paladin 21+, fall, and trade it all in for Blackguard 21+, but you would have to be at least 21st level to gain more than ten levels of Blackguard by any means whatsoever.

This is one of those things that always kind of struck me as being unnecessary, kind of like how a bunch of Epic feats...aren't really all that epic or are basically fluff.

Frankly, "evil paladin" isn't really something that should require epic rules to take more than ten levels in.


Pretty much this. Generally, few prestige classes offer a worthwhile epic progression of class features, the only incentive to go beyond level 10 is epic feats. However, you wouldn't be getting the epic feats in this case because you wouldn't qualify for them. You'd be better off as a blackguard10/fighter10 than as a blackguard20. The fighter levels wouldn't really change your character fluff, and you'd get way more use out of the feats than +2 smites and +3d6 SA.

+1 for agreement.

[TuggyNE]

Frankly, "evil paladin" isn't really something that should require epic rules to take more than ten levels in.

For this, the UA variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofTyrannyClassF eatures) is probably better-advised.

[Psyren]

Or go with Pathfinder's Antipaladin.



This is one of those things that always kind of struck me as being unnecessary, kind of like how a bunch of Epic feats...aren't really all that epic or are basically fluff.

This I'll agree with but that's another discussion. Plenty of feats, epic and otherwise, are very underpowered for their cost. Incarnum in particular runs afoul of this problem, with epic feats that feel anything but.

[toapat]

For this, the UA variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofTyrannyClassF eatures) is probably better-advised.

CE Paladin 10/Blackguard 10 is relatively powerful, so long as your DM says that the Evildin lists are the same as the blackguard list.

A bit of homebrew (for Infernal Spirit (Evil Divine Spirit)), and then allowing blackguard to universally stack with Evildin, would probably help. the Blackguard really gets alot of Cannonfodder if they have 10 levels of paladin, Ex or Evil (blackguard stacks with both, but you HAVE TO HAVE the levels, not just trade them in), with their levels of blackguard

[Curmudgeon]

CE Paladin 10/Blackguard 10 is relatively powerful, so long as your DM says that the Evildin lists are the same as the blackguard list.
I don't see how would that apply here. A Paladin of Slaughter would have to cease to be Chaotic Evil to fall and be able to convert levels to Blackguard. Any fallen Paladin loses all spells. Once you've taken Paladin (of any sort) levels and then some other class levels (including Blackguard levels) you can't ever advance in Paladin (of any sort). So there's just no way to get that combination with retroactive levels.

[toapat]

I don't see how would that apply here. A Paladin of Slaughter would have to cease to be Chaotic Evil to fall and be able to convert levels to Blackguard. Any fallen Paladin loses all spells. Once you've taken Paladin (of any sort) levels and then some other class levels (including Blackguard levels) you can't ever advance in Paladin (of any sort). So there's just no way to get that combination with retroactive levels.

No, you dont have to fall to get the retroactive Benefits of blackguard. you have to have levels in a class named Paladin, it only assumes that those levels are ex paladin because it was written before UA, which introduced evil paladins

The reason why Blackguard has to be reworked afterwards is because blackguard isnt Fist of Raziel, and the evil paladins did not get their spell lists updated over time like how the blackguard did. the other problem is, of course, that you cant RAW level in Blackguard

[darksolitaire]

I don't really see Ronin as good choice for PrC, as it locks you into Samurai for early levels. It would be just better to mix and match classes that grant sneak attack and bonus feats and work with different base classes.

Defiant doesn't seem to do much everything. All of it's abilities save one are defensive and aimed towards divine caster. They come in slow pace, and chassis for the class isn't good. Only time I would imagine anyone would want to play one is thematic campaign where it's resistances see heavy use.

That leaves us with Black Guard. Which is very strong when it gets to it's sweet spot. Paladin 1/Black Guard 10 has full bab, 3d6 sneak attack, 4th level spells from surprisingly large list and rebuke undead for shenanigans. And it can fill prerequisites for any PrC it feels like at that level. It feels good to be bad. Add some Shadowbane Inquisitor for giggles to gain bonus abilities for being a fallen paladin and keep your inquisitor abilites even while you're fallen! With this combo, 1+1=3!

[Curmudgeon]

No, you dont have to fall to get the retroactive Benefits of blackguard. you have to have levels in a class named Paladin
Well, you might want to get your vision prescription checked, then.
A fallen paladin who becomes a blackguard gains all of the following abilities that apply, according to the number of paladin levels the character has. That's right under the Fallen Paladins header, on page 183 of Dungeon Master's Guide. The option to convert levels is available only if the Paladin has fallen.

[AlchemicalMyst]

Well, you might want to get your vision prescription checked, then.
That's right under the Fallen Paladins header, on page 183 of Dungeon Master's Guide. The option to convert levels is available only if the Paladin has fallen.

Curm's notorious needlessly aggressive nature aside, he is correct by RAW it must be a fallen Paladin. Now a GM may decide to allow Evil Paladins to exchange levels but that is not the case by RAW.

That being said, I don't really understand why any Evil Paladin would go into Blackguard anyways. So many better options. If so why trade in? Now you remove the only benefits of going into blackguard because you lose the nice bonuses for having pally levels in the first place.


No, you dont have to fall to get the retroactive Benefits of blackguard. you have to have levels in a class named Paladin, it only assumes that those levels are ex paladin because it was written before UA, which introduced evil paladin
Actually it specifically states you do need to be fallen to benefit at all from the bonuses INCLUDING the trade in levels.

[toapat]

That being said, I don't really understand why any Evil Paladin would go into Blackguard anyways. So many better options.

because the retroactive benefits of blackguard consider all Paladin levels, not just fallen, but only can trade in fallen levels, and it is essentially the opposite of the Fist of Raziel class, plus, it has the full spell list

[AlchemicalMyst]

because the retroactive benefits of blackguard consider all Paladin levels, not just fallen, but only can trade in fallen levels, and it is essentially the opposite of the Fist of Raziel class, plus, it has the full spell list

"A fallen paladin who becomes a blackguard gains all of the following abilities that apply, according to the number of paladin levels the character has. "

It specifically states it needs to be a fallen Paladin.

It's a very clear if/then/else statement.

if (paladin.value == "fallen"){
event.value = "Paladin levels count."
}else{
event.value = "They do not count.";}

You may not like that, but it's RAW.

[toapat]

"according to the number of paladin levels the character has."

There is no Fallen Paladin class, if there was, then normal Paladins would not have the ability to trade in their innert paladin levels.

RAW you are quite wrong, and that quote is the only half of the sentence being quoted that is RAW

[AlchemicalMyst]

There is no Fallen Paladin class, if there was, then normal Paladins would not have the ability to trade in their innert paladin levels.

RAW you are quite wrong, and that quote is the only half of the sentence being quoted that is RAW

You are ignoring half of the RAW you mean...
It specifically says that a "fallen" Paladin who becomes a Blackguard gets bonuses depending on their Paladin levels.

No one has stated that Fallen Paladin is a class so I fail to see the relevance of your statement other than to try and twist words. Fallen Paladin is refereed to multiple times in that section, also named Fallen Paladin. It even states that Blackguards that have paladin levels (aka fallen paladins) are ex-paladins. There is no errata or update anywhere that I know of to correct this even after UA's printing. In order to benefit from that part of the blackguard PRC you must be a fallen paladin, it says it clear as day. Curm and I both have even directly quoted it. Heck, you yourself have as well, of course cutting out the fallen paladin part from the quote.


With that said I really don't care to argue about RAW when neither side will yield. We both think our interpretations are correct and that's that. I have put my two cents in. That is all. *woosh* Merlin here I come.

[toapat]

You are ignoring half of the RAW you mean...
It specifically says that a "fallen" Paladin who becomes a Blackguard gets bonuses depending on their Paladin levels.

No one has stated that Fallen Paladin is a class so I fail to see the relevance of your statement other than to try and twist words. Fallen Paladin is refereed to multiple times in that section, also named Fallen Paladin. It even states that Blackguards that have paladin levels (aka fallen paladins) are ex-paladins. There is no errata or update anywhere that I know of to correct this even after UA's printing. In order to benefit from that part of the blackguard PRC you must be a fallen paladin, it says it clear as day. Curm and I both have even directly quoted it. Heck, you yourself have as well, of course cutting out the fallen paladin part from the quote.


With that said I really don't care to argue about RAW when neither side will yield. We both think our interpretations are correct and that's that. I have put my two cents in. That is all.

Fallen Paladin has no Definition in RAW, only Fluff, where it is shorthand implying a character, with paladin levels, who has rendered those paladin levels inert* through change in alignment, or committing a severely evil act.

It is used as a shorthand, but because it does not actually mean anything in the rules, only in fluff, it has no connection to how you determine whether levels of Paladin of Slaughter counts towards the retroactive blackguard benefits.

Blackguard, is also written before there were alternatives to LG for a paladin, so, being of evil paladin, all paladins who would take blackguard were thus no longer gaining the benefits of paladindom

*also shorthand

[AuraTwilight]

Fallen Paladin has no Definition in RAW, only Fluff


Ex-Paladins

A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.

Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities.


Fallen Paladins

Blackguards who have levels in the paladin class (that is to say, are now ex-paladins) gain extra abilities the more levels of paladin they have.

A fallen paladin who becomes a blackguard gains all of the following abilities that apply, according to the number of paladin levels the character has.
1–2 Smite good 1/day. (This is in addition to the ability granted to all blackguards at 2nd level.
3–4 Lay on hands. Once per day, the blackguard can use this supernatural ability to cure himself or his fiendish servant of damage equal to his Charisma bonus x his level.
5–6 Sneak attack damage increased by +1d6. Smite good 2/day.
7–8 Fiendish summoning. Once per day, the blackguard can use a summon monster I spell to call forth an evil creature. For this spell, the caster level is double the blackguard’s class level.
9–10 Undead companion. In addition to the fiendish servant, the blackguard gains (at 5th level) a Medium-size skeleton or zombie as a companion. This companion cannot be turned or rebuked and gains all special bonuses as a fiendish servant when the blackguard gains levels. Smite good 3/day.
11 or more A fallen paladin of this stature immediately gains a blackguard level for each level of paladin he trades in.

The character level of the character does not change. With the loss of paladin levels, the character no longer gains as many extra abilities for being a fallen paladin.

You're wrong, or you're defining RAW and Fluff differently from the standard.

[AlchemicalMyst]

You're wrong, or you're defining RAW and Fluff differently from the standard.

You believe me wrong. Being wrong and being believed wrong are different. RAW, rules as written... In the rules, as they are written, it refers directly to ex paladins as fallen paladins. That can't be argued, you even quoted that part yourself... You may believe that fallen paladin is meaningless and undefined, but that is wrong because the abilities following reference said term of Fallen Paladin repeatedly.

This is why I won't argue anymore on the subject, it is a "you're wrong...nuh-uh...yeah you....no you're wrong," type of situation. Because you are a new responder I decided to show respect by responding in kind but I will not debate on the matter. It it pointless to quote a block of text twenty times as "proof."

However I will respond to the other matter you brought up. Non-standard paladins become Ex under different rules as defined in Unearthed Arcana. So in order for a Paladin of Tyranny to become an Ex-Paladin (of Tyranny) they need to break their defined code of conduct.

[Piggy Knowles]

One semi-interesting use of Blackguard is to use it as a full-BAB qualification for Nar Demonbinder. Ex-Paladin 1/Blackguard 10/Nar Demonbinder 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Crusader 2 gives you +19 BAB, 4th-level blackguard spells and 8th-level arcane spells. (Crusader is just there as a full BAB finisher - but feel free to swap it out for basically anything else.)

[AuraTwilight]

You may believe that fallen paladin is meaningless and undefined

That's...uh...not my position, sir.

[toapat]

That's...uh...not my position, sir.

it was aimed at me, but the point he is making is biased and based entirely on ignoring the difference between Fluff and RAW, something you have to be extremely careful with when talking about Blackguard and Paladin because their format makes Class Features and Fluff look like the same thing.

In Fluff, it is the term for a paladin who violated their code falls.

In rules, Fallen is simply an extraneous term that means nothing in and of itself.

[Dr.Epic]

Is Ronin any good?

[toapat]

Is Ronin any good?

Isnt the saying about CW Samurai that the best thing you can do with them is fall?

[Venger]

Is Ronin any good?

ronin is glorious. go ahead and check out raijin in my signature, he uses ronin.

full BA, 4 dice of SA, and banzai charge, an ability that functions like power attack, and stacks with it, but tanks AC instead of attack, like shock trooper. not super hard to qualify for, and it is pretty straightforward.

another prestige class that fits "must be a fallen xyz" is complete divine's blighter, which requires you be an ex-druid, though it doesn't let you trade in class levels the way ronin, blackguard, and defiant do