Desecrate and Necropolitans

[Story]

I see Desecrate as a commonly cited way for undead like Necropolitans to get more hitpoints. And it does make sense that people in the business of creating more undead would desecrate the area and add an aligned alter.

However, it looks to me like the +2HP/hd only applies upon creation, not to levels gained later. Since players normally undergo the ritual at level 3 to minimize XP loss, that means they only get a +2HP total. Did I interpret this right? Personally, I don't feel like 2hp it's even worth asking the DM about.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It gives a static +2 HP per HD, not a one-time +2 HP per current HD. If your HD later increases, the static +2 HP per HD will still grant that bonus to every HD you currently have.

[Story]

An undead creature created within or summoned into such an area gains +1 hit points per HD

This sounds like a one time bonus to me.

[Namfuak]

This sounds like a one time bonus to me.

I'm assuming you mean that the player puts desecrate down before he is turned into a necropolitan. If so, it would be dependent on your interpretation of "created." The ritual kills the person, and rebirths them as an undead. To me, that is effectively "creating" an undead. Thus, the person gets 2d12+2 hp right away (assuming level 3 creation), and +1 HP per HD afterward (since they were created there). If you are to interpret it as simply "changing" the person into an undead, they would not benefit from the spell.

[JaronK]

This sounds like a one time bonus to me.

Why? Isn't a Necropolitan who was created there always created there? If a necropolitan who's level 15 was created at level 3 there, isn't he still an undead that was created in a desecrated area, and thus would get +1 HP/HD?

JaronK

[Story]

The way I read it, the hitpoints are gained upon creation/summoning of the undead. I'm actually having trouble seeing how everyone else reads it differently.

[PersonMan]

I don't have LM in front of me, but doesn't the wording "[...] or summoned into such an area gains +1 hit points per HD" mean that you could enter, exit, re-enter, exit the area for an ever-increasing hit point pool?

---

As to the question of whether or not it's a one-time bonus...I say yes, it is. It's just that the bonus is dependent on the variable of HD. If I get [HD] bonus HP, then if [HD] goes up, so does my bonus HP.

Bonus HP = HD * 2

HD increases, Bonus HP increases as a result. The one-time bonus is "you gain bonus HP based on your HD", not "you gain an immediate, fixed amount of bonus HP", or it'd read something like "...such an area gains +1 hit points per HD at the time of creation".

[limejuicepowder]

What page number is the necropolitan template on? I searched for 20 minutes the other day and couldn't find it.

[Story]

It's on page 114.

[JaronK]

I don't have LM in front of me, but doesn't the wording "[...] or summoned into such an area gains +1 hit points per HD" mean that you could enter, exit, re-enter, exit the area for an ever-increasing hit point pool?

No, because it's not a one time thing. If you've been summoned or created in that field, you get the bonus, permanently. Entering and leaving the field again has no effect... you've always been summoned or created there. It's like how someone can be born in New York, even if they leave and go to Minnesota for a while.


HD increases, Bonus HP increases as a result. The one-time bonus is "you gain bonus HP based on your HD", not "you gain an immediate, fixed amount of bonus HP", or it'd read something like "...such an area gains +1 hit points per HD at the time of creation".

IIRC there are bonuses like that. Isn't Unholy Toughness like that?

JaronK

[mattie_p]

I guess now is when I get to bring up that necropolitans advance by character class, and lack the clause (found in lichs and vampire, among others) that all future hit dice are d12s, right?

[The Viscount]

That is correct. As for desecrate, it's unclear, probably due to being written back when undead PCs were nonexistent. I could see it either way, honestly. Improved Toughness specifically says that you gain the extra 1 hp whenever you gain another HD, so this could be used to say no more hp is gained from desecrate than the hp gained at creation.

Personally, I would agree with PersonMan. The bonus hp from desecrate isn't that gamebreaking. A d12 with no Con score is not actually that much of an advantage. The average of 6 hp is the same as a d8 with a 14 con, so I'd say give them the extra hp.

[JaronK]

I guess now is when I get to bring up that necropolitans advance by character class, and lack the clause (found in lichs and vampire, among others) that all future hit dice are d12s, right?

Sure, but that's a general rule for undead anyway, so it doesn't matter.

Note that desecrate is often used in conjunction with the Dread Necromancer's ability and an unholy shrine for this purpose, so we can expect to see D12+4 HP/HD. Sadly, Corpse Crafter won't help here, as a Necropolitan is technically not made with any specific necromancy spell.

JaronK

[mattie_p]

Sure, but that's a general rule for undead anyway, so it doesn't matter.

Could you please direct me to this rule? The d12 hit dice for undead refers only to racial hit dice. Advancement by character class generally means that when a character advances, they gain the hit die indicated by their character class (with exceptions as specified, e.g. vampire, ghost, and lich). This is on page 23 of the PHB.

I refer you to page 190 of the Monster Manual, which has the mummy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mummy.htm) and an example 10th level cleric mummy. The cleric mummy does not have the cleric hit dice exchanged for d12s (in other words, this is not an undead specific trait). However, the mummified template, found in Libris Mortis, does have that wording. So you can't even argue that the authors of Libris Mortis forgot that particular wording.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Could you please direct me to this rule? The d12 hit dice for undead refers only to racial hit dice. Advancement by character class generally means that when a character advances, they gain the hit die indicated by their character class (with exceptions as specified, e.g. vampire, ghost, and lich). This is on page 23 of the PHB.

I refer you to page 190 of the Monster Manual, which has the mummy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mummy.htm) and an example 10th level cleric mummy. The cleric mummy does not have the cleric hit dice exchanged for d12s (in other words, this is not an undead specific trait). However, the mummified template, found in Libris Mortis, does have that wording. So you can't even argue that the authors of Libris Mortis forgot that particular wording.

The mummy is considered a mistake, in every other example of undead in 3rd edition they always use d12's.(mummies are supposed to advance by HD anyway).
Be they ghosts, vampires, liches, death knights, grave touched ghouls or anything else. Going back to 3.0 we have Corpse and Bone creatures from Vile Darkness and the wraith and shadow templates from Savage Species.
The mummy is the only anamoly sweep that aside and its quite clear the RAI are undead always use d12 for hit dice.

All that aside the Necroplition example is a 5th level wizard with 5d12 hit points. "Increase HD to d12" is just short hand. The only reason the mummified template has the whole thing is it was copied and pasted from the Savage Species.

[mattie_p]

The mummy is considered a mistake,

By whom? There was plenty of opportunity (errata, for example) to rectify the error, if in fact it was an error.


in every other example of undead in 3rd edition they always use d12's.(mummies are supposed to advance by HD anyway).
Be they ghosts, vampires, liches, death knights, grave touched ghouls or anything else. Going back to 3.0 we have Corpse and Bone creatures from Vile Darkness and the wraith and shadow templates from Savage Species.
The mummy is the only anamoly sweep that aside and its quite clear the RAI are undead always use d12 for hit dice.

All that aside the Necroplition example is a 5th level wizard with 5d12 hit points. "Increase HD to d12" is just short hand. The only reason the mummified template has the whole thing is it was copied and pasted from the Savage Species.

Also, if this is the default for the undead type, why is it not mentioned in the type, rather than explicitly spelled out in multiple locations? Or both? The designers intent may have been to increase all future hit dice to d12s, but it is explicitly not RAW.

[Lord Vukodlak]

By whom? There was plenty of opportunity (errata, for example) to rectify the error, if in fact it was an error.
At no point has there been any other undead in 3rd edition that had anything other then d12's. Find a second undead in third edition that mixes d12 and another hit die.


Also, if this is the default for the undead type, why is it not mentioned in the type, rather than explicitly spelled out in multiple locations? Or both? The designers intent may have been to increase all future hit dice to d12s, but it is explicitly not RAW.
Aside from templates(and the mummy lord) undead advanced by hit dice and the templates all mention increase HD to d12. It could be that undead who advanced by hit dice(like mummies) who somehow gain a class are supposed to retain normal class hit dice.

But at no point has a templated undead been printed that mixed d12's and regular class hit dice. The Necropolitan template says increase HD to d12. It doesn't say future HD aren't die d12 either so we can only judge by precedent which tells use undead templates always use d12 for hit dice.

[mattie_p]

At no point has there been any other undead in 3rd edition that had anything other then d12's. Find a second undead in third edition that mixes d12 and another hit die.
I've already pointed out two examples. I would suggest that, should you desire to persist in this line of argument, you find a creature without the key wording in question that provides future d12 hit dice. The level 5 mage in question could have gained the necropolitan template at level 6, for example.


But at no point has a templated undead been printed that mixed d12's and regular class hit dice. The Necropolitan template says increase HD to d12. It doesn't say future HD aren't die d12 either so we can only judge by precedent which tells use undead templates always use d12 for hit dice.

This is a logical fallacy, as I hope you are aware. The rules don't say a lot of things, which doesn't make them legal. And I already pointed out the SRD-mummy that does mix d12s and class hit dice. I would urge you to point to a RAW example of an undead with racial and class hit dice where all are d12s, that lacks the explicit future d12 wording.

[JaronK]

I would urge you to point to a RAW example of an undead with racial and class hit dice where all are d12s, that lacks the explicit future d12 wording.

What about the sample ghost on page 147 of Libris Mortis, Korath the Elder? He's got all D12s despite 5 Sorcerer levels.

JaronK

[mattie_p]

What about the sample ghost on page 147 of Libris Mortis, Korath the Elder? He's got all D12s despite 5 Sorcerer levels.

JaronK

Those are sample ghosts, and based off the of the Ghost template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm) in the SRD/MM. That template has the explicit wording in question.


Hit Dice
All current and future Hit Dice become d12s.

[Lord Vukodlak]

This is a logical fallacy, as I hope you are aware. The rules don't say a lot of things, which doesn't make them legal. And I already pointed out the SRD-mummy that does mix d12s and class hit dice. I would urge you to point to a RAW example of an undead with racial and class hit dice where all are d12s, that lacks the explicit future d12 wording.
Now flipping back to an old book. The Book of Vile Darkness

The Bone Creature and the Corpse Creature. They both say "Increase HD to d12" Just like the necropolitan The sample Bone Creature is a 5th level bugbear rogue. He has 8d12 hit dice. This would indicate that "Increase HD to d12" is short hand for "Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s."

[JaronK]

Grr. It's almost impossible to find any undead at all that lack the wording and have class levels that were clearly gained after the creature became undead. That sort of makes the challenge a bit ridiculous. Are there any that do it the other way, other than the mummy?

JaronK

[Lord Vukodlak]

Grr. It's almost impossible to find any undead at all that lack the wording and have class levels that were clearly gained after the creature became undead. That sort of makes the challenge a bit ridiculous. Are there any that do it the other way, other than the mummy?

JaronK

He can't prove any of the samples gained the class levels before the transformation either. I would think if it only effected current HD they'd have made the example a mix.

[mattie_p]

Now flipping back to an old book. The Book of Vile Darkness

The Bone Creature and the Corpse Creature. They both say "Increase HD to d12" Just like the necropolitan The sample Bone Creature is a 5th level bugbear rogue. He has 8d12 hit dice. This would indicate that "Increase HD to d12" is short hand for "Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s."

No way to tell with the corpse creature (barbarian class levels), and with the bone creature, there is no way to tell when the template was applied, I'm afraid.


He can't prove any of the samples gained the class levels before the transformation either. I would think if it only effected current HD they'd have made the example a mix.
I don't think I'm the one who has to prove anything. Lacking the explicit "future hit dice" wording, it is others who need to prove that necropolitans get all future hit dice as d12. I'm willing to admit that it makes sense as a house rule, so long as you are willing to admit it is a house rule, and not RAW.

[Lord Vukodlak]

No way to tell with the corpse creature (barbarian class levels), and with the bone creature, there is no way to tell when the template was applied, I'm afraid.

Which is why I pointed out the Bone Creature which is a 5th level Bugbear rogue that used 8d12. You told us to provide a RAW example of
"an undead with racial and class hit dice where all are d12s, that lacks the explicit future d12 wording." I did.

Changing current class hit dice to d12 (or d8 in the case of the worm that walks) but not future HD is a wonky mechanic. Why not just give bonus hit points.

"Increase HD to D12" could easily be taken to mean it changes your hit dice to d12. If your d4 wizard hit dice have been increased to d12. It stands to reason they'd remain d12.

The mummy is undead to begin with, it can't normally advanced by character class so when it does advanced by cleric levels its already breaking rules. So again I ask to provide an example of an undead with mixed HD.

[mattie_p]

Except the bugbear 5th level rogue bone creature could very well have been animated at its current hit dice and level. There is absolutely no indication that the sample creature was animated at level 1 and continued to advance to its current level.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Except the bugbear 5th level rogue bone creature could very well have been animated at its current hit dice and level. There is absolutely no indication that the sample creature was animated at level 1 and continued to advance to its current level.

There is no indication that it wasn't but the fact that other then the mummy which was undead to begin with. There is NO OTHER undead with mixed HD. You can't find it because it doesn't exist.

All the templated undead use just d12's in their examples, there is no evidence that "Increase HD to X" doesn't effect all HD.

Increase HD to d12 can easily be taken to mean it increases your hit dice permanently.Your a wizard you have d4 hit dice, you advanced by d4 hit dice. Increase HD to d12 would mean your hit dice are now d12 instead of d4. If something increases your Hit dice it would stay increased until something said otherwise.
The wording still allows the interpretation that it applies to all HD not just current HD. The application of the template doesn't stop when you level up.

[JaronK]

Well that's the problem... there's never going to be a way to prove anything. The mummy, as stated earlier, already breaks the rules (mummies can't gain class levels anyway). For everything else, we have no way of knowing when they turned undead, so there's no way of checking.

JaronK

[Story]

By whom? There was plenty of opportunity (errata, for example) to rectify the error, if in fact it was an error.


If the Positive Energy Plane wasn't intended to heal undead, why did it never get errata'd? There are tons of obvious mistakes that never got fixed (Rainbow Servant, I'm looking at you).

[Flickerdart]

Divine Grace (Su)

At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.
If the Paladin's Charisma was 14 at level 2, but is 20 at level 20, does her Divine Grace grant +2 or +5 to saving throws? If you can answer that, you can answer whether or not a level 2 desecrated Necropolitan and the same Necropolitan at level 20 have the same bonus HP.

[Wookie-ranger]

[the whole argument]

I see.
You want to be the Raw-lawyer. Personally I agree, that by RAW the DN gets d12 ONLY for the levels that it had before becoming undead, and all thereafter by class-level.
This does NOT make a lot of sense, though.

If you want to take the description of the Dread Necromancer entry as a golden, unchangeable rule, that works exactly as written and not in any other way, may I direct your attention to the Fear aura.
It does not have a duration; therefore, once scared you will be forever and always scared.

Can we not agree that the DN is poorly worded and that common sense should prevail over a dissection of every single word and phrase?

[mattie_p]

Well that's the problem... there's never going to be a way to prove anything. The mummy, as stated earlier, already breaks the rules (mummies can't gain class levels anyway). For everything else, we have no way of knowing when they turned undead, so there's no way of checking.

JaronK

Each of the monster entries describes a typical creature of its kind. However, there are several methods by which extraordinary or unique monsters can be created using a typical creature as the foundation: by adding character classes, increasing a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template to a monster. These methods are not mutually exclusive—it’s possible for a monster with a template to be improved by both increasing its Hit Dice and adding character class levels.


If the Positive Energy Plane wasn't intended to heal undead, why did it never get errata'd? There are tons of obvious mistakes that never got fixed (Rainbow Servant, I'm looking at you).

The Positive Energy Plane, its problematic treatment of undead, and Rainbow Servant, have nothing to do with this particular discussion. Could you please keep to the matter at hand (mainly, the specific wording of the necropolitan ability). There is an entire thread dedicated to dysfunctional rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214988), please take generic rules critique there.


I see.
You want to be the Raw-lawyer. Personally I agree, that by RAW the DN gets d12 ONLY for the levels that it had before becoming undead, and all thereafter by class-level.
This does NOT make a lot of sense, though.

If you want to take the description of the Dread Necromancer entry as a golden, unchangeable rule, that works exactly as written and not in any other way, may I direct your attention to the Fear aura.
It does not have a duration; therefore, once scared you will be forever and always scared.

Can we not agree that the DN is poorly worded and that common sense should prevail over a dissection of every single word and phrase?

Actually, lichs have the wording in question "all current and future hit dice change to d12s". I don't see what dread necromancer has to do with this particular discussion on necropolitans, nor the fear aura. I refer you again to the dysfunctional rules thread, which I believe, has already brought up the fear aura (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11838859&postcount=191).

[Wookie-ranger]

I don't see what dread necromancer has to do with this particular discussion on necropolitans, nor the fear aura.

:smalleek:
Super derp.
Sorry about that. For me they are pretty much the same thing. I rarely (never actually) play a DN without Necropolitan, and rarely vise-verse.

None the less. By RAW you are right.
But by common convention, The Necropolitan is not played that way. There are many examples when this could have been fixed by an errata, but WotC is not known to be thorough, and there are many other instances where there is no errata for mistakes. So the simple fact that it could have been fixed, but was not, is not a valid argument.
I also have to say that there is no real way to confirm your (nor my) view in the matter. The wording is different, agreed; but so are many other example that are written by different people and in different books, years apart.
All examples of undead with class levels can be argued both ways. And you could always argue that they where just changed and have not advanced in level yet.

One way to answer this is to look at the WotC website and see if they have some kind of official build up where a character was turned undead, and how future levels were calculated from then on.
Even with this though there is always the chance that WotC made a mistake. But that would never happen. :smallwink:

As always it comes down to the DM and Rule0. I have never meet a DM (including myself) that would make only the past HD d12s, so that's where I stand. It Is about playability and fun after all.

To the original question:
I have played it both ways. If the group is more powerful (or in a solo game) add it to all HD present and future. In a game like this I was also allowed to spellstich myself (for a huge price).
If your group is not as powerful, and it is more for RP flavor, only add the bonus it to the past HD (the d12 you get at the time of transformation) and all future HD are the normal d12 (that's how i have always played it.

[mattie_p]

Wookie-ranger, I'll totally agree that WoTC might have derped on necropolitan (and mummy) and all undead. But I'm not the designers, they might have had some reason to word it the way they did. If I adapt the template, as I have, I admit it and move on.

The original context was in regards to desecrate, which says, "An undead creature created within or summoned into such an area gains +1 hit points per HD," and its applicability to necropolitans (who typically gain hit dice after gaining the template, in my experience). I'd argue that the spell refers only to past hit dice, as it does not mention future hit dice, much as the necropolitan template does not mention hit dice.

Ruling it affects future hit dice (as a house rule) is one thing, but stating that by RAW it does (when it makes no mention of future hit dice) is an incorrect application of the rules.

[JaronK]

The original context was in regards to desecrate, which says, "An undead creature created within or summoned into such an area gains +1 hit points per HD," and its applicability to necropolitans (who typically gain hit dice after gaining the template, in my experience). I'd argue that the spell refers only to past hit dice, as it does not mention future hit dice, much as the necropolitan template does not mention hit dice.

So here's the question: let's say a character is turned into a Necropolitan at level 3, in a Desecrated area. Now he gains 10 levels.

Is he still "an undead creature created within... such an area"? If yes, he gets +1 HP/HD. If no... he gets no bonus at all. So which is it?

JaronK

[mattie_p]

So here's the question: let's say a character is turned into a Necropolitan at level 3, in a Desecrated area. Now he gains 10 levels.

Is he still "an undead creature created within... such an area"? If yes, he gets +1 HP/HD. If no... he gets no bonus at all. So which is it?

JaronK

Umm, aren't there some alternatives? For example. The necropolitan was created within the area, leaves, and gains 10 levels. Upon re-entering the original desecrated area, couldn't the necropolitan gain 10 hp, effective so long as they remain in the desecrated area? This would be in accordance with RAW (so long as the original desecration was still in effect, otherwise they'd only have the bonus hp for the levels they had when they gained the template). There are other interpretations, I'm sure, but this is the first one that popped into my head.

[JaronK]

Umm, aren't there some alternatives? For example. The necropolitan was created within the area, leaves, and gains 10 levels. Upon re-entering the original desecrated area, couldn't the necropolitan gain 10 hp, effective so long as they remain in the desecrated area?

No, because nothing in the spell talks about created undead exiting, then reentering the area. We don't just make up RAW like that. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the hitpoint boost goes away when you leave the area.

Consider: a baby is born in New York. A US law says "all babies born within the US are US Citizens. Now the baby leaves New York and goes to Mexico City, then grows up. Is the person no longer a US Citizen until it returns to the states, or it still a citizen of the US the whole time because it was still born in the US regardless of current position?

JaronK

[mattie_p]

No, because nothing in the spell talks about created undead exiting, then reentering the area. We don't just make up RAW like that. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the hitpoint boost goes away when you leave the area.

Consider: a baby is born in New York. A US law says "all babies born within the US are US Citizens. Now the baby leaves New York and goes to Mexico City, then grows up. Is the person no longer a US Citizen until it returns to the states, or it still a citizen of the US the whole time because it was still born in the US regardless of current position?

JaronK

Fair point. however, let's say that all residents of Alaska get 1000 US dollars from the state each year. The baby is born in Alaska and then moves to Mexico City, grows up, and then returns to Alaska. Do they get back-dated checks for 30 years?

[JaronK]

No, because that law is based on residence in Alaska, not where you were born. Desecrate is based on whether you were created there, not whether you are currently there.

JaronK

[mattie_p]

So once the desecrate spell expires, the hp go away, right? (law is revoked, superseded, allowed to lapse... )

[JaronK]

Nope, because it doesn't say that. The law (the nature of the spell) didn't change. It's just that new undead created in that area won't be affected once the spell is gone.

JaronK

[mattie_p]

Wait, what? Now you are saying that the effects of spells with a specified duration extend past their duration? Awesome! Jaronk, you've done a lot of good detective work for 3.5, but I do believe you are incorrect in this particular interpretation.


Duration
A spell’s Duration entry tells you how long the magical energy of the spell lasts.

Timed Durations
Many durations are measured in rounds, minutes, hours, or some other increment. When the time is up, the magic goes away and the spell ends. If a spell’s duration is variable the duration is rolled secretly (the caster doesn’t know how long the spell will last).

[Wookie-ranger]

Fair point. However, let's say that all residents of Alaska get 1000 US dollars from the state each year. The baby is born in Alaska and then moves to Mexico City, grows up, and then returns to Alaska. Do they get back-dated checks for 30 years?

No, (but that would be nice!) because being a "resident" is a descriptive term in relation to location. you are a resident of where you live. For as long as you live in Alaska, you are a resident of Alaska; when you move (and report your change of address, as you are supposed to) you are resident of another area.
[note1 : even though technically you still would be if you are in the military and are stationed somewhere else, because your residence is based on your location of enlistment and cannot be changed]
[note2 : If you move out of the country, as far as I know, you are still a citizen but not a full resident. Again, only if you file the change of address forms (f8822)]

While the term "Citizen" is a definition of national origin. It is 'what' yo are, not 'where' you are so to speak.
This is applicable in the US, as the US immigration law is based on the 'Jus soli' or Law of the soil. If you are born 'here' you automatically belong 'here'
Other countries have the Jus sanguinis or Law of the Blood (i need to write some item/adventure/campaign with that name i just realized!). Basically, if your parents are German, but you are born in the US, you are still German (you still need to apply, but the bureaucracy is marginal)


PS: :smalleek: what are we talking abuot? ... Oh wait. This is the internet! that explains a lot! :smallbiggrin:


Edit:
I looked up the official FAQ. on p.107 they have this:

Does an undead that takes class levels (i.e., a ghoul with
fighter levels) use the class Hit Die for the class levels or a
d12?
Vampires, liches, and other undead templates typically
state that all HD are replaced with d12s; if the template doesn’t
say so, assume the HD remains the same. Normally, non-templated undead can’t have class levels—any exception is a
very special case created for a particular purpose by the DM or
adventure author. In such cases, the undead should probably
use the normal class Hit Die, since the rules don’t say anything
about changing it in such cases.
bold mine.
It would appear that for WotC the phase "all HD are replaced" also means all future increases.
The later part does say that is should go by class, but explicitly says NONE-template undead.

[JaronK]

Wait, what? Now you are saying that the effects of spells with a specified duration extend past their duration? Awesome! Jaronk, you've done a lot of good detective work for 3.5, but I do believe you are incorrect in this particular interpretation.

Some spells have a duration but have lasting effects afterwords. Consider Maw of Chaos. It does caster level d6 damage per round for the duration. Then it ends. The damage doesn't go away, right?

What about Vigor? Get fast healing 3 for 10+CL rounds. Spell goes away at the end of the duration. The hitpoints gained, however, do not.

JaronK

[mattie_p]

Apples and oranges. Vigor does not permanently increase the HP of the creature, merely restores lost HP.

Might as well bring up Cure Light Wounds, Raise Dead, or, for that matter, Power Word Kill. Duration Instantaneous.

Interesting Find, wookie-ranger, although one part of the quote you did not bold (in between your two bolded selections) kind of makes my point:


if the template doesn’t say so, assume the HD remains the same.

[Wookie-ranger]

if the template doesn’t say so, assume the HD remains the same.

partial quote is bad quote.


... and other undead templates typically
state that all HD are replaced with d12s; if the template doesn’t
say so, assume the HD remains the same.

It does state "HD are replaced with d12s" in the Necropolitan description.
To be exact: Hit Dice:Increase to d12

The Statement "HD are replaced with d12s" and "Hit Dice:Increase to d12" mean the same thing.

[mattie_p]

Partial quote is the part of the quote that matters in this discussion. The template does not address future hit dice.

Why does no one argue that dragonwrought kobolds increase future hit dice to d12s, as per dragon type? "The rules don't say that I can't", while commonly brought up, isn't an answer that is appropriate. (Fighters can cast level 9 spells at ECL 1 in that world.) Please answer that question, and it should illuminate your questions regarding the necropolitan template.

[JaronK]

Why does no one argue that dragonwrought kobolds increase future hit dice to d12s, as per dragon type?

Because there's no precedent for dragon type creatures gaining hit dice of their race, as opposed to of their class, when gaining class levels. So why would they? Undead is a whole different story. Other than what sure looks like an error in MMI, all undead creatures always get class levels with D12s (and no con bonus) instead of the normal hit dice + constitution bonus mechanic.

Surely you recognize this fact.

JaronK

[mattie_p]

So why would the necropolitan, which explicitly advances by character class, also have a d12 hit die, when the players handbook specifies that character class advancement uses the class hit die?

I think we're arguing in circles here, we've cited examples and rules text on both sides, unless someone new jumps in I'm dropping out of the discussion, because I think nothing will be gained by further discussion.

[The Viscount]

The d12 vagueness from necropolitan is almost certainly unintentional, though there might be some case to be made for it, as well as gravetouched ghoul, only changing HD at the time of creation to d12s, as both are rather good for their LA. As is, I would recommend they be treated as the other undead templates and increase all current and future HD to d12s.

The confusion surrounding mummy being discussed is due to a rather simple oversight. Mummy is a monster, like a gelatinous cube, not a template, like mummified creature. The sample mummy lord is just a mummy with 10 levels of cleric and some gear, which is why the HD don't match up. With this settled, there is a clear trend for undead templates.

As for the problem of exiting and re-entering a desecrated area, it's a non-issue, as the bonus hp only apply to undead created or summoned in the area. There is no way I know of to be summoned twice in the same area. I similarly cannot think of a way for an undead to be created twice in an area.

[Story]

Wait, if summoned monsters can't teleport or plane shift back, that means they don't have to save against the violet veil in Prismatic Walls, right?

[TuggyNE]

Wait, if summoned monsters can't teleport or plane shift back, that means they don't have to save against the violet veil in Prismatic Walls, right?

Not sure how this is relevant, but I don't believe summoned monsters have any particular difficulty teleporting or even plane shifting.

[The Viscount]

I feel I may be responsible with my vague mention of not being summoned twice. A summoned creature certainly could teleport or plane shift back into a desecrated, but it would not count as being summoned to my knowledge. They would still have to make the save against violet prismatic wall.