Grappling the Ungrapplerable

[JellyPooga]

OK, so I've been running some guys through The Forge of Fury adventure and they've just got to the bit with the Allip. They're all level 4, but none of them have a magic weapon (they've had a few given to them, but decided to sell them in favour of mundane gear...don't ask), so were forced to peg it. They've rested up for a couple of days to heal their Wisdom back up, but when they go back in, they're going to have the exact same problem of not being able to do anything to this thing!

So, with that as my dilemma, I started looking at options that I could bring in as a Deus Ex if things really started going pear-shaped for them (only as a last resort, you understand). The first thing that came to mind was a Spirit Shaman; a dash or two of Chastise Spirits should handily clear up any Allip infestation! So I was looking through potential spells he could use and I stumbled across the Entangling Staff spell from Complete Adventurer (I think).

I've never really looked at that particular spell as something particularly useful outside of very particular builds, but then I considered the Spirit Shamans' Ghost Warrior ability. If all weapons he wields are treated as Ghost Touch and his weapon, via use of Entangling Staff, is capable of grappling a foe, can a Spirit Shaman grapple Incorporeal Undead in this way? If so, without a Str score, is an Incorporeal creatures Grapple Modifier limited to just its BAB and size modifier (plus any other Feat bonuses, etc.)? Would this, then, be a handy way to lock down ghosts and shadows without destroying them?

Thought? Comments? Citations of rules as to why this doesn't work?

I think the most relevent one is in the description for the Incorporeal Subtype, where it says that Incorporeal creatures cannot be grappled or make grapple checks. That does seem to put a damper on the idea, but then the Ghost entry specifically mentions that they're not treated as Incorporeal to things on the Ethereal Plane, which implies that a Ghost can grapple with a Ghost Touch weapon (which, as far as I'm aware, only exists when using the Entangling Staff spell). Perhaps this only applies, then, to Ghosts specifically, I don't know.

[Fates]

OK, so I've been running some guys through The Forge of Fury adventure and they've just got to the bit with the Allip. They're all level 4, but none of them have a magic weapon (they've had a few given to them, but decided to sell them in favour of mundane gear...don't ask), so were forced to peg it. They've rested up for a couple of days to heal their Wisdom back up, but when they go back in, they're going to have the exact same problem of not being able to do anything to this thing!

So, with that as my dilemma, I started looking at options that I could bring in as a Deus Ex if things really started going pear-shaped for them (only as a last resort, you understand). The first thing that came to mind was a Spirit Shaman; a dash or two of Chastise Spirits should handily clear up any Allip infestation! So I was looking through potential spells he could use and I stumbled across the Entangling Staff spell from Complete Adventurer (I think).

I've never really looked at that particular spell as something particularly useful outside of very particular builds, but then I considered the Spirit Shamans' Ghost Warrior ability. If all weapons he wields are treated as Ghost Touch and his weapon, via use of Entangling Staff, is capable of grappling a foe, can a Spirit Shaman grapple Incorporeal Undead in this way? If so, without a Str score, is an Incorporeal creatures Grapple Modifier limited to just its BAB and size modifier (plus any other Feat bonuses, etc.)? Would this, then, be a handy way to lock down ghosts and shadows without destroying them?

Thought? Comments? Citations of rules as to why this doesn't work?

I think the most relevent one is in the description for the Incorporeal Subtype, where it says that Incorporeal creatures cannot be grappled or make grapple checks. That does seem to put a damper on the idea, but then the Ghost entry specifically mentions that they're not treated as Incorporeal to things on the Ethereal Plane, which implies that a Ghost can grapple with a Ghost Touch weapon (which, as far as I'm aware, only exists when using the Entangling Staff spell). Perhaps this only applies, then, to Ghosts specifically, I don't know.

As the spell affects the staff itself, making it usable for grappling, rather than simply using the staff as a focus for the spell, I would rule that a grapple attempt (which is classified as a melee attack) would logically affect incorporeal creatures, as the quarterstaff affects incorporeal creatures as it would affect anything else. That is my interpenetration*, anyway.

*Interpenetration? Really? I believe I meant Interpretation.

[Deophaun]

Not sure on actual RAW, but if you're going to go this route I'd make it BAB + Charisma modifier, as that seems to be the strength proxy for incorporeal creatures.

[JellyPooga]

Not sure on actual RAW, but if you're going to go this route I'd make it BAB + Charisma modifier, as that seems to be the strength proxy for incorporeal creatures.

Yeah, I'd considered this myself. Seems reasonable enough to me.

[Fitz10019]

*Interpenetration? Really? I believe I meant Interpretation.

I googled 'peg' because I'd never heard it used to mean run. Wiktionary's slang entry supports your comment.

[Douglas]

They've rested up for a couple of days to heal their Wisdom back up
That doesn't actually work, not against an allip. Its touch attack does wisdom drain, not damage. Drain is permanent until restored by magic.

So, basically, they're even more screwed.

Anyway, here's my opinion on how to handle it: They already know exactly what they'll be up against. If they just go right back in with no plan and no way to deal with it, remind them about it just in case they somehow forgot. If they insist on going in anyway, don't pull any punches. If they deliberately walk into an encounter they know they can't beat, give them the logical consequence of that act - losing horribly, even up to a TPK.

Make sure that resources to beat it are available if they go looking, but don't just hand them out. Wait for them to actually go looking for the necessary tools.

If you plop in a DEM for such an obvious screwup, even as a last resort against TPK, you are teaching them that they don't have to think, strategize, or anything other than just plunge straight ahead, and their mistakes won't matter because they'll just get bailed out.

[JellyPooga]

That doesn't actually work, not against an allip. Its touch attack does wisdom drain, not damage. Drain is permanent until restored by magic.

Huh, I missed that. I shall have to rectify the error :smallamused:

Still, I dislike the TPK, regardless of how dim the PC's have been. All it achieves is a total disconnect and an end to the campaign. Even with every warning, if they go back, I won't pull punches (I let the dice lie as they land), but if everything starts going wrong then a DEM is inevitable. Maybe it will teach them that I'll bail them out when they're stupid, but I'm hoping that by showing them up with an NPC who deals with the encounter singlehandedly (where their whole party failed), they'll be shamed into thinking harder about how to overcome the problems they face. After all, they've already learned that selling all their magic weapons was a bad idea by their first encounter with this undead horror.

[AlanBruce]

You mention they are all 4th level. None of them is a cleric? I have ran that module and the allip is in a specific area. Perhaps they could just run through the area. One will take an AoO, but hopefully, the allip won't follow.

Unless of course it babbles. In which case, given the low wisdom scores and will to resist, they are, indeed, screwed.

Now, you mentioned they sold their magic weapons to buy mundane gear. At least some gold should remain from selling the weapons. Couldn't they retreat to town and buy at least a +1 dagger? I can't recall if they have an access to the surface at this point with the allip. Hopefully they do.

[JellyPooga]

You mention they are all 4th level. None of them is a cleric? I have ran that module and the allip is in a specific area. Perhaps they could just run through the area. One will take an AoO, but hopefully, the allip won't follow.

Unless of course it babbles. In which case, given the low wisdom scores and will to resist, they are, indeed, screwed.

Now, you mentioned they sold their magic weapons to buy mundane gear. At least some gold should remain from selling the weapons. Couldn't they retreat to town and buy at least a +1 dagger? I can't recall if they have an access to the surface at this point with the allip. Hopefully they do.

One PC has just died (trying to solo the "Maker of Death" Wight and his Ogre Skeleton buddies in the ruined Dwarf Shrine) and is returning next session as a Cleric. He is, however, returning as a Dwarven Cleric focused on melee combat...and has pretty much dumped Charisma, so no joy on the Turning front. There is a Druid in the party, but he's very focused on Summons and didn't have anything appropriate prepared at the time. I'm not sure if he'll have the sense to at least try prepping a Shillelagh or Magic Stone next time they go in...sometimes I despair over the sense, or lack thereof, my players have! Besides, the Druid was one of the characters that managed to get Wis drained by the Allip in their first encounter with it.

Yeah, they've got gold left, but only about 1000gp between them. Enough to get a Wand of Magic Weapon, I suppose, but even then they're still having to suck up the 50% miss chance.

As for the specifics of the area the Allip resides. I'm happy for it to refuse leaving the area it's in (that's how they got away after their 1st encounter with it), but if they want to search the area (which they almost certainly will), then they're going to have to deal with it, one way or another. It's not a vital area and there's nothing to be found there, but I can't exactly tell the players that, can I?!

[AlanBruce]

Good point! I had forgotten about the wight and the skeletons. Scary encounter for low levels. The allip is haunting a cell block, if i'm not mistaken. I do believe your players will want to loot every single room, making an encounter with the allip unavoidable.

The dwarf cleric fits thematically with the module very well, especially later on, when they face the other residents of the forge. How low is his charisma? I hope not too low. He could always have Eagle's Splendor prepared and get a chance at turning them. Isn't there a wizard or sorcerer in the party? Mine had a warmage, so he managed to blast it a few times with magic missile before scaring the creature away.

And, of course, telling players what lies beyond the stone door is never a good idea. That's 50% of the fun!

[JellyPooga]

I had previously banned Dwarf characters because I wanted to preserve at least some of the mystery of the place. They're far enough in that I don't mind him wading in with a bit of racial lore now, though!

His Cha isn't appalling, at 10, but an Allip is 4HD with +2 Turn Resistance. It's a possile Turn, but he's looking at less than a 25% chance and only 3 chances at it before he's out of uses. Eagles Splendour is an option that I will suggest (given an appropriate Int or Wis check, of course...I don't give free hints!).

There is a Wizard in the party, but she's a Transmutation specialist who's banned Evocation, so no Magic Missile!

[Feralventas]

I had previously banned Dwarf characters because I wanted to preserve at least some of the mystery of the place. They're far enough in that I don't mind him wading in with a bit of racial lore now, though!

His Cha isn't appalling, at 10, but an Allip is 4HD with +2 Turn Resistance. It's a possile Turn, but he's looking at less than a 25% chance and only 3 chances at it before he's out of uses. Eagles Splendour is an option that I will suggest (given an appropriate Int or Wis check, of course...I don't give free hints!).

There is a Wizard in the party, but she's a Transmutation specialist who's banned Evocation, so no Magic Missile!

Can't say much of the rest, but I think Lesser Orb of Force would be available at that level and in the Conjuration set.

[Douglas]

Check page 122 of Complete Adventurer. The Ghostblight alchemical weapon capsule can get (very) short term Ghost Touch on their weapons for just 100 gp per person. If they fork over another 100 gp for a weapon capsule retainer to put it in, they don't even have to waste a standard action on using it.

200 gp per weapon user, and they can get a swift action 3-round ghost touch. Given their resources, that's probably their best shot. If they bother to go looking, have an NPC suggest it.

Out of their renewable resources, the cleric can cast Spiritual Weapon and get full effect. Heck, if he's got War domain (seems likely for a "battle cleric" if he's not known for high optimizing) it's on his domain list. Produce Flame or Shillelagh can get the Druid at least a temporary magic weapon.

They have the tools to deal with this, if only they'll think to look for them.

If you end up going with the "shame them for incompetence" route, make certain they know the NPC who did it does not have significantly more resources than they do. In fact, try to do it using only resources that they actually do have (or could easily acquire, such as cheap alchemical items). Otherwise you risk the message they receive being "they had the wrong class/build" rather than "they were incompetent".

Hmm, in that vein: Cleric 4, War Domain, full plate armor, pre-casts Ghost Touch Armor on himself, and has Spiritual Weapon in all 3 other level 2 slots (including domain slot and bonus from wisdom). After all Spiritual Weapons are out, start dumping Cure spells on the Allip - positive energy ignores incorporeal miss chance.

[HunterOfJello]

If they have knowledge of the creature's location and existence, then a druid and cleric should have no trouble taking on an Allip.

A cleric could damage it with Cure spells along with Magic Weapon and Magic Stone. The druid has plenty of spells that can hurt it and if they summon Small Fire Elementals, then every time the Allip hits one it'll take 1d4 fire damage. The druid can also blast it with Produce Flame or Flame Blade or Flaming Sphere.


If they end up dying or several of them die, let them go ahead. Peeps gotta learn that planning and research are a key part of adventuring.

[Crake]

Something to think about, if you do introduce a deus ex machina to save them for doing something incredibly stupid, make sure that there are consequences in place for such a thing, possibly some kind of permanent ability damage (not recoverable by even greater restoration) or some kind of debt that may end up coming into play later in the campaign in a negative fashion. Never let the PCs get away with it for free, it just makes the game boring, no sense of danger or anything.

[Arcanist]

Allip's have an intelligence score and are thus vulnerable to the power of diplomacy! Have the PC's talk it out with the Allip. Ask him about the conditions behind his/her suicide and potentially calm them out of madness...

... Yeah I don't think that will work either... :smallfrown:

[JellyPooga]

Something to think about, if you do introduce a deus ex machina to save them for doing something incredibly stupid, make sure that there are consequences in place for such a thing, possibly some kind of permanent ability damage (not recoverable by even greater restoration) or some kind of debt that may end up coming into play later in the campaign in a negative fashion. Never let the PCs get away with it for free, it just makes the game boring, no sense of danger or anything.

Hmm...I've always been fairly generous as a DM, largely to make up for some fairly strict houserules that I impose (like the "no dwarves" rule). Still, you do make a valid point and I may well do something like you suggest. Having said that, I'd only bring in a deus ex if things were already going pear-shaped, which means that they're already going to have to deal with at least one of the group suffering from a permanent nightmare-haunted madness-inducing coma from Wisdom drain (and given that this is an E6 game, getting hold of Restorations is not going to be easy...there's a quest right there.)

@HunterofJello: Yeah, a Cleric and a Druid shouldn't have much trouble with a single Allip, but I don't have much faith in my players! As soon as they come across anything that isn't a straight up fight with orcs (or similar), they tend to panic, even if they have all the tools to deal with the situation.

@Arcanist: They're welcome to try! Maybe once they've taken some Wisdom drain, they'll have a bit of an insight into its madness and have a chance of identifying with it...of course, the more Wisdom drain they take, the greater insight they'll have and the lower the penalty on their Diplomacy check they'll have...:smallamused:

[Andezzar]

Yeah, they've got gold left, but only about 1000gp between them. Enough to get a Wand of Magic Weapon, I suppose, but even then they're still having to suck up the 50% miss chance.The wizard could also buy scroll of magic weapon and learn it. 50% miss chance is still better than 100%. Doesn't the group have a cleric who automatically knows that spell? You could even cast the spell on ranged weapons to avoid the attacks.
A cleric/wizard could also use the Ghost Touch Armor spell to further reduce the risk of WIS drain. Ghost Touch Weapon unfortunately is a 3rd level spell.

Doesn't the wizard know Melf's acid arrow or some other damage dealing non-evocation spell?

[JellyPooga]

Doesn't the group have a cleric who automatically knows that spell?

They do now, but only because of one of the characters being an idiot and soloing a room that was designed to be a challenge for the whole party! He had the option of just walking out the room and the gribblies wouldn't have followed, but instead he decided to charge and was prompty mashed up into tiny pieces.


Doesn't the wizard know Melf's acid arrow or some other damage dealing non-evocation spell?

Nope. She has all utility, battlefield controls and buffs/debuffs, like Sleep, Grease, Knock and Spider Climb, but about the only damage dealing spell she has is Lesser Orb of Acid, but she never prepares it.

Don't get me wrong; the party has the tools they need to deal with this encounter. I just don't think they'll use them, which is why I'm considering DEMing the encounter, should they return to it.

[Andezzar]

Don't get me wrong; the party has the tools they need to deal with this encounter. I just don't think they'll use them, which is why I'm considering DEMing the encounter, should they return to it.Don't railroad the encounter. And don't underestimate your players. If the players indeed don't use the appropriate tools at their characters' disposal and suffer for it, let them. If the encounter turns out to be a TPK and they complain, tell them that the allip was level appropriate and that they had all the necessary tools available.

[JellyPooga]

If the encounter turns out to be a TPK

If the encounter ends in a TPK, what's the point? It means we'll have to start a new game (either that or I'll have to repopulate the dungeon and have them come in as a new group, some time later...to have a new group 'happen' to try out the dungeon so soon after would be weird).

I'm only DEMing if there's, like, one dude left or something, mind. I'm going to give them every opportunity to not fluff the encounter before bringing in the big guns.

[killem2]

You can either:

1. Let them die. Then tell them why they died. Reroll new characters with the new found knowledge, and make a new campaign.

2. Before they leave the town have them bombarded with an NPC who sells hirelings (hint hint, our wizards are on discount.)

3. Have a couple peddlers selling very basic +1 weapons. Like +1 clubs, and such, and make them cheap. (Describe the peddler as shady looking).

4. Change the damn encounter yourself. You are the DM. Make it a ghoul if an allip is too much for them.

5. Holy Water

6. Or, have an npc come in, clean house, and chastise them for being so foolish to come in here unprepared.

[JellyPooga]

1. Let them die. Then tell them why they died. Reroll new characters with the new found knowledge, and make a new campaign.

Yuk.


2. Before they leave the town have them bombarded with an NPC who sells hirelings (hint hint, our wizards are on discount.)

They're currently camped just outside the dungeon, 3 days trek from town. Random hire-service showing up is a bit of a stretch!


3. Have a couple peddlers selling very basic +1 weapons. Like +1 clubs, and such, and make them cheap. (Describe the peddler as shady looking).

Hmm, this could be an option. Travelling peddler selling knock-off magic items that run out after a few uses or something. Maybe, maybe...


4. Change the damn encounter yourself. You are the DM. Make it a ghoul if an allip is too much for them.

Too late for that. They've already encountered it once, so it's the return encounter I'm worried about.


5. Holy Water

New Cleric has some, but not a lot and Allips have an annoyingly high HP, especially once they start racking up Temporary HP from their touch attack.


6. Or, have an npc come in, clean house, and chastise them for being so foolish to come in here unprepared.

Probably what I'll have to end up doing. Thus far, the expedition hasn't been amazingly successful, because they've been going in cack-handed and unprepared. I don't expect them to do any differently now!

I do like the peddler idea though. Maybe even have him be the Deus Ex Character if they later botch the encounter...especially if they don't buy anything off of him!

[Andezzar]

Yuk.What's wrong with that? People screw up, they die. Sometimes other people can even learn from their mistakes. Or do you mean running the exact same campaign again? That indeed would probably be frustrating to everyone.


New Cleric has some, but not a lot and Allips have an annoyingly high HP, especially once they start racking up Temporary HP from their touch attack.Temporary Hit Points do not stack the most an allip can get is 5 temporary HP.

[killem2]

If it were me, I actually prefer peddler, but I do have a mix of highly experienced players and noobs, so its a tough thing for me to comment on accurately.

[Toy Killer]

If you do use the Dues Ex for the encounter, make sure the NPC is flavorful, fun and uncooperative.

I have a character in mind for my campaign coming up called Mark Gauncho, a whisper gnome Scout, decked out in all sorts of mundane equipment. Paranoid, Prepared for everything and gorram psycho. If the players approach an encounter 'wrong' and get in over their heads, he'll swing in and give them an extra opportunity to escape.

But he doesn't necessarily care for the party in any such way or another. In fact, he came in because he thought he might be able to take care of (Blank) once and for all, once the party got done softening him up for Mark Gauncho.

[Andezzar]

I wouldn't give the players such a "get out of jail (nearly) free card".

I wouldn't mind the peddler (even if his arrival just at the right time stretches my suspension of disbelief), but, if I understand the OP correctly, the characters already have all the necessary tools, but the players do not let them use them. So I doubt the peddler would help much.

[JellyPooga]

I wouldn't give the players such a "get out of jail (nearly) free card".

I wouldn't mind the peddler (even if his arrival just at the right time stretches my suspension of disbelief), but, if I understand the OP correctly, the characters already have all the necessary tools, but the players do not let them use them. So I doubt the peddler would help much.

The characters do have the tools neccesary, but some of them are slightly outside of the players' normal experience. With the pedlar, I can make it very obvious...even to the point of having him cast spells that the characters, themselves, know (e.g. Magic Weapon), or trying to sell them stuff that they already have and telling them what it's good for (e.g. Holy Water).

[killem2]

The peddler could come off as cheesy or advantageous, depending on the area.

Is this place where the Allip resides, well known? Is it a place of tales at the bar and those speak of it as a great place to adventure? If so, the peddler would know this and be trying to cash in.

If it isn't, you're going to have have the peddler sell his being there a lot harder :).

If they still don't buy anything, well, then they don't. You can only railroad so much.

[Stegyre]

What's wrong with loading up on holy water, lots and lots of holy water? Ranged touch attack doing 2d4 damage or 1 point from splash if you managed to hit within 5'.

True, each shot has a 50% failure rate because of incorporeality, but with no magic weapons, this seems like a pretty good option to me.

. . . and I agree with other comments about avoiding the DeM. That's just going to cheapen PC inventiveness and takes away from any victory. Speaking for myself, I would rather have a character die -- even a TPK -- than know that I could never really lose.

[ericgrau]

Oil of magic weapon is only 50 gp a pop. Most of my melee characters carry a dose or two. Even with the 50% miss chance incorporeal foes tend to have low hp. And selling +1 weapons is usually a good idea. They're usually pretty lousy. They should just go buy magic weapon and return.

Charisma doesn't affect turning that much; it takes about a +2 or +3 to match what a +1 would do for other checks. Even with it dumped the new cleric should be able to turn ok. Or maybe he could make it his 2nd worst stat if his 2nd worst stat is much better.

[JellyPooga]

Selling the peddlars presence is going to be a bit of a stretch...this dungeon is not well known, three days hard march from the nearest civilisation and the allip itself resides in an obscure out-of-the-way and uninhabited part of the dungeon!

With a +2 Turn Resistance, the Clerics going to have to pull above his weight...16+ on the dice, IIRC, before rolling to see if he turns it. With a positive Cha mod, this becomes easier, but he's put no focus into it.

[killem2]

Selling the peddlars presence is going to be a bit of a stretch...this dungeon is not well known, three days hard march from the nearest civilisation and the allip itself resides in an obscure out-of-the-way and uninhabited part of the dungeon!

With a +2 Turn Resistance, the Clerics going to have to pull above his weight...16+ on the dice, IIRC, before rolling to see if he turns it. With a positive Cha mod, this becomes easier, but he's put no focus into it.

Well, I guess, its sink or swim time :smallbiggrin:

[AlanBruce]

Alternatively, what if you use the variant Turning Rule from Complete Divine? It allows you to turn in a 30ft radius rather than 60. However, instead of rolling checks for Turning and Turning damage in separate tables, you actually hurt the undead rolling a d6/cleric level, will for half damage.

Being a 4th level cleric, he should roll 4d6, getting an average of 12 or 10. If he boosts his charisma beforehand, the Dc for half damage is harder to resist for the allip. although they subtract X amount of damage if they have turn resistance.

[killem2]

Would the cleric be opposed to casting Magic Weapon? Even on one person?