Unholy blight/holy smite, do they suck as much as they seems?

[bobthe6th]

I mean, they offer a small debuff tied to a lower damaging fireball only effective against some foes... and are a spell level higher in a cleric domain.

What the hell were they thinking? Or am I missing something?

[The_Snark]

They're not great spells. As for what they were thinking... you have to understand that, when writing the core books, the designers were thinking of blasting as the wizard's primary tool. They got the most powerful damaging spells because that was their Thing. Clerics and druids got a few damaging spells, but they tend to be along the lines of Searing Light, Holy Smite and Call Lighting - they have odd advantages (more effective against undead, blinds enemies, lasts multiple rounds), but in general they're weaker than a simple blasting spell of equal level. Occasionally you'll find a solid blasting spell on the Cleric/Druid list, like Flame Strike or Fire Storm, but those are the exceptions rather than the rule, and I half-suspect that the designers didn't realize those spells were better than their wizardly counterparts.

All of that would be fine... except that the wizard blasting spells they were balancing against, Fireball and Cone of Cold and so on, are generally considered weak. That's what they were thinking: "we want to give the cleric a spell to smite the wicked, but it can't be stronger than Fireball or it'll step on the wizard's toes."

That's my theory, anyway.

[BowStreetRunner]

Divine casters traditionally don't get many blasting spells that compete with arcane casters - it's not their schtick. These spells also have a built-in exclusion that should allow the caster to drop one into melee and not harm allies or even themselves, assuming an evil or good party, so that can be a plus.

[awa]

yeah the only affects some creatures is a feature not a bug.

[Fates]

yeah the only affects some creatures is a feature not a bug.

All depends on the context. If your enemies brainwash a whole bunch of paladins into attacking you, or if the paladins find some reason to attack you anyway because, frankly, most paladins are a-holes, the spell won't do you much good, but in most combat encounters, it's a bonus, because your players won't get hurt.

[tiercel]

Depending on the situation, the AoE-that-misses-your-allies can be useful. (Also, it's untyped damage that can't be Evasioned, so if you are the wrong alignment you need either Mettle or sufficient SR to take no damage; resistances won't help.) But as a 4th level spell, it's generally not all that impressive to memorize and cast.

As a spammable at-will (Sp) ability, though, it's a little more impressive. A mid-to-high level Good party facing a small group of erinyes could find themselves fly-kited with this spell (forget the bow, against Good targets) while other devils seek to close for melee. (And devils are the type to try and use organized combined-arms tactics.)

Getting hit with an unholy blight is kind of annoying, but probably less bad than what other 4th level spells might do to you. Getting hit with three unholy blights every round could put a crimp in your whole day, especially if any of your allies are getting hammered by the same AoE at the same time.

[Keld Denar]

If your whole party is Good, its a Widened Glitterdust with free Extraordinary Speak Aim applied. The damage is a freebie. Order's Wrath has the Daze, but is a bit harder to land. Nearly every foe a good party faces is evil, but among the evil ones, only one third are chaotic.

[bobthe6th]

If your whole party is Good, its a Widened Glitterdust with free Extraordinary Speak Aim applied. The damage is a freebie. Order's Wrath has the Daze, but is a bit harder to land. Nearly every foe a good party faces is evil, but among the evil ones, only one third are chaotic.

:smallconfused: um, sickened is not that great a debuff. It is a -2 to most things in combat. though you have a fair point, I like the law/chaos versions a lot more as fourth level spells.

[Spuddles]

:smallconfused: um, sickened is not that great a debuff. It is a -2 to most things in combat. though you have a fair point, I like the law/chaos versions a lot more as fourth level spells.

He was talking about Holy Smite. Arguably the best, as it dazes and usually affects the most enemies. Evil is a pretty common thing to encounter in D&D.

[edit]
blinds, not dazes. The good spell blinds evil. Daze is on the lawful or chaotic spell.

[bobthe6th]

He was talking about Holy Smite. Arguably the best, as it dazes and usually affects the most enemies. Evil is a pretty common thing to encounter in D&D.

Wow... ok, now I see. For some reason I thought they all sickened. That makes a lot more sense.

So Unholy blight is the odd man out. It has a negligible debuff compared to its comrades, but the same damage/level. I can see why(don't want to make it to easy for a demon to stun lock the party at long distance), but it does look funky...

[Shematwater]

So Unholy blight is the odd man out. It has a negligible debuff compared to its comrades, but the same damage/level. I can see why(don't want to make it to easy for a demon to stun lock the party at long distance), but it does look funky...

Well, the chaotic version slows, not daze, so each is unique. I would also point out that the blinding and daze are for only one round, while the sickness is up to 4 rounds, and the slow up to 6. So, while the penalty is lower, it lasts longer, which, in my opinion, is generally better. Also the sicked requires a remove curse, which is not as commonly prepared as a heal or remove disease.

[Braininthejar2]

They mostly shine on outsiders who get them as spammable SLAs.

[T.G. Oskar]

:smallconfused: um, sickened is not that great a debuff. It is a -2 to most things in combat. though you have a fair point, I like the law/chaos versions a lot more as fourth level spells.

I'd differ, but that's because of what it represents, and because the delivery method isn't that great.

Sickened offers a -2 on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks and ability checks. Of those, attack rolls are pretty straightforward (you get hit less), skill checks aren't that common (barring...say, Intimidate for demoralize or Bluff for feinting, or Use Magic Device to activate an item; most people with climb or swim speeds have enough to make it matter anyways), and ability checks are rare and more specific to certain characters (Lockdown characters, who rely on Trip, or in case you want to use Disarm).

Saving throws, however, change things. It's not because it's a -2; it's because it's a -2 that stacks with other penalties to SVs. Picture someone shaken and sickened; that -2 turned into a -4, and that works as a gateway to other debuffs that can easily take it to -10, in which case you can just cast any SoD and win.

The delivery method, however, is what sucks. Unholy Blight is a horrible spell. First, it targets only GOOD creatures, so you're reducing it to less than a tenth of the monsters (and that's ballparking it); if you're Neutral, you take damage, but you're not affected. Second, it allows a saving throw, and if you pass it, the effect doesn't hit - that's bad, since it doesn't lead you to stack up further penalties. Third, the damage vector isn't that great anyways.

Holy Smite is better in that it's a sort of "alignment smart bomb", except it hits a lot more creatures AND Blind is pretty decent. Not as much, but it's a reliable AoE spell nonetheless, and it can be boosted with certain traits (say, Spell Focus [Good], if you're interested in it). You're not using Holy Smite to be a blaster; you're using Holy Smite to deal AoE damage without having to worry about friendly fire, and hopefully landing a debuff on the way. Certainly not a bad choice for a Cleric looking to add some damage.

One last return to the tangent: sickening via Brutal Strike (the feat that makes you sicken a target for 1 round when using Power Attack with a bludgeoning weapon) and a heavy flail? That's the kind of rider effect that makes sicken more dangerous, and worse if you have, say, debuffs that activate on a critical hit, since it means it can trigger before the effect and carry the penalty to saving throws for THAT effect, creating a cascade of debuffs.

[noce]

The fact that a cleric knows all his spell list is the reason why those spells are so situational.

You're not going to have Holy Smite prepared every day. Just prepare it if you know you're going to face an evil outsider that day.

Clerics actively fighting their opposed alignment often are on a quest or something, so usually it's not hard to foretell when you'll need aligned spells.

[BowStreetRunner]

I'm pretty astonished that Thread Necromancy even works on a thread this old.