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GC_Southpaw
2012-12-23, 01:59 PM
Okay, so I need some advice. I'm in a group with some of my best friends, and they're the ones that introduced me to d&d, but they can't play well in the slightest. Forgive me, this is gonna be rather long.

Where to begin. My biggest irk is that every single person always plays the same character. I tend to vary my characters a lot (sci-fi android, gnoll barbarian, half fey-wizard etc.) but they tend to always play the same one. That is, one always rivals my character and hates him in everything. One always disagrees with me, one always sides with her. One always steals ALL the loot so I can't get anything. (And they wonder why, at level 5, I have 30 gold, a bastard sword, and a chain shirt to my name.)

Another problem that tends to arise is rule changes. Don't you guys think it would be wise to tell the players of any rule changes before you start playing? I was left with a crossbow user that had to use a standard action to reload his crossbow. As asinine as that is, I didn't expect it and wouldn't have played that character with a crossbow if I knew that.

We're currently playing BESM (which is supposed to be compatible with 3.5, but I particularly don't enjoy it. It's unbalanced as heck.) Anyway, there are some interesting points that make it enjoyable more realistic, but we're in a zombie apocalypse kind of thing. They're drawn to sound. I'm a gun bunny. So all I have is guns. If I'm getting attacked, I'm yelled at for trying to find a silent alternative to firing my guns, but when I eventually do, I get yelled at for making too much noise. We're in a rural area, there's no chance I'm gonna find a silencer.

In that campaign, I'm playing an android. I'm playing him similar to KOSMOS from xenosaga. Unfeeling and uncaring. I get annoyed because I'm told to play him more human like. I got an ability to incapacitate biological creatures. I deploy this with a bunch of rednecks and the other android beside me. The rednecks expectedly drop, but the android doesn't. Thing is, they don't know what an android is because she's playing a cyborg. She has biological tissue and should've been affected by my ability.

Whatever campaign we play I'm always the outsider. We've been doing a campaign for 4 years or so and I am one of two or three of the original left and still no story of my own. They won't let me be a main character. The protagonist is ALWAYS the owner of the house we play in. It might be fine for others but not me.

I dunno, maybe I'm just whining, maybe I'm blowing it out of proportion. They're some of my best friends, and I DM another group entirely and its insanely obvious that they're having way more fun than the others are in their group. I rather hope no one from the group I'm complaining about reads this thread but I need advice. Did this happen to anyone else? How did you deal with it? I'll expand on things if need be, I have more examples.

Alejandro
2012-12-23, 03:50 PM
How old are these people and you?

smashbro
2012-12-23, 04:15 PM
Alrighty, I'll try to address everything in bullets.



- Playing the same character -

You are actually describing two different issues there. As for playing the same character, it's easy to fall into a rut or just to like a certain type of character. If players are really attached, suggest that they give different quirks to their characters (for a bard, maybe one that focuses more on talking, while another uses the combat bonus more). If you want, try a body switch game, where you use another player's character.

However, if your friends aren't working as a team (you getting no loot, one character who hates yours) that's an issue. You need to talk to the DM about this, and either you or the DM should talk to the group about this. If everybody's characters are getting in the way of having fun, that's a player issue, not character. It's alright for characters to have a friendly rivalry (my characters tend to be a bit of an opposite to my friend's characters) but when it comes time to make a decision, the group needs to be able to accept it.



- Rule changes -

Before the game, make sure that you talk to the DM about your character. While it may seem like a waste of time, it should help issues like this. If you and the DM want to create a house rule, or any rule isn't clear, the DM should make sure it is clear to everyone. On a side note, I thought that the standard action for a crossbow was the normal rule in D&D 3.5, though I haven't really had to deal with them in a long time so I may be wrong.


- Quiet Guns -

Again, this seems like an issue with the group getting along. It sounds like what you described could be done right to make for interesting complications, and help drive your character and the plot. Players should remember that everything can't be perfect, so there will be problems that arise for your characters, and that's part of the game.


- Android problems -

If you're being asked to play a different character, this is again group dynamics. If andriods are accepted as part of the setting, and this is normal for them, then while other players might not be too happy with your character, they should at least understand that you have the right to play him/her/it like that.

If you guys are into roleplaying though, have the other characters try to get your android to be more human. It could either be amusing to see what they try to do, or you could have your android start to have some feelings, or reveal some hidden depths. Maybe he can feel, but for some reason shuts it out. This could shift some focus onto your character, and give him a story that lets you play him as mostly cold, makes other players happy that he has emotions somewhere, and give your character some attention.


- Outsider -

What is the DM like? While I know I'm not anywhere near a perfect one myself, it's important that the DM knows they need to change this. The role of the DM is to not only determine the rules and generate a story, but most importantly make sure everyone who comes to the table has a good time.








- General Stuff -

I'll second the question about age. Also, what sort of dynamic does the group have? Is it large? small? Do you guys see each other every day? Or are you best friends from high school who meet up twice a month to play this?


It is really hard when not everyone from a group gets along in game, but are friends in real life. I am in a group of 8 (7 players and me as DM) at college. My campaign last year crumbled because there were simply too many people with too many different interests to keep the party together. The more people you have, the more issues you have with people in real life, and the more complicated everything is. Everyone has an opinion of who is fun to play with, and who isn't. I'm planning on starting up a game again, but with smaller groups, so it is easier to give everyone attention.

With my group, I'm pretty sure that without a couple people, the group would not function at all. There are two people who are similar in personality, but have different views on most everything. A couple people who will do deliberately stupid things. A couple people who are more serious. And some that will put that aside and stay quiet, for the good of the group, while still managing to enjoy parts of it their characters do.

No matter what the game, every group should:

- A DM who knows it is his job to make sure the players have fun, and be able to talk to the players to see if they aren't.
- A DM who everyone will listen to, and accept their decisions
- Players who understand that they're not the only one there. Share the spotlight
- Players who give suggestions, but don't make other people change their characters.


I wish I could think of more, but I think this post is long enough anyway. I hope this helps.

GC_Southpaw
2012-12-23, 06:05 PM
Okay, well. First, I'm 20. Most of us are 20-25. Though on occasion we have an older guy play. Second, a hand crossbow uses a move action to reload.

Anyway, we see each other often enough, and thanks to facebook we talk to each other a lot. I guess I worded it wrong. See, it's not that they always play, say, a bard or an elf or something, they really do make the same decisions and such. The DM in this current campaign is a little hot headed, so its not gonna be the easiest to talk to them.

My current character really is just until they decide my role in the game. Now that I know what direction it's going, I think what I'm going to do is make a new character to fit the theme of the group. Maybe a character that I will forcibly tell the group is not a stooge, but an equal in the team.

That's another thing. The rules. I do talk to them, and they tell me they're playing by the rules. If I point out that something is not right, I get yelled at. Hell, I can't do half of what I want to sometimes because they mix up the rules. Example, that special incapacitating ability I mentioned I had. In BESM, special attacks don't use energy unless you assign it the defect "uses energy." The only requirement I gave the attack was an hour between uses. Given how slow time goes by, it's a reasonable time span. I use it twice and he tells me "man, you better watch your energy." I told him it didn't use energy and he said it did.

Problems always arise. I'm the person that all the weird stuff happens to. I have no luck when it comes to drawing attention. I do it without meaning to every time. Its just my luck.

I think they don't realize that they asked me to play my character differently. If they know something that I know is different (be it from different mediums etc. Like how vampires work. Dracula vs. Nosferatu) then what they know goes.

I suppose it does help, but there's always the problem of them being individual people, and not ones that people over the internet can know.
I like what you said, but I want a few more opinions.

smashbro
2012-12-23, 10:27 PM
Try out your new character, see how it goes. Once that happens, and your character isn't just a "stand-in" then see how the other players are.

I'm not sure what I can tell you about the rules. Once they are decided and agreed upon, people need to stick to them. You DM should be doing that.

Yeah, I wish you luck, not really sure what else to say to help at the moment. Everyone is different, and it is hard to find a gaming group that is just right. I still think you should talk to them about how you feel the campaign is going, and let them know what you've told us. Try to be cautious about it, like, don't sound like you're yelling at them, but at the same time, be confident.

GC_Southpaw
2012-12-23, 10:50 PM
Well, the rules were agreed upon. They just don't realize that the rules they agreed upon were not the rules they said. I suppose I can talk to them, but I'm not sure it'll do any good. They're rather dead set on doing things their way. I'll talk to them when we next play (though, honestly, it's the holidays, It'll be a while)

NikitaDarkstar
2012-12-24, 12:17 AM
Do they actually, fully understand the system they play or do they just think they do? It might be a good idea to convince everyone to read over the basics again outside of the game. Rules debates one way or another during an actual session is a bad thing that tends to cause friction and make games grind to a halt.

Is it the DM or other players calling you out on how you're playing your characters and the rules? If it's the other players ignore them until the DM says something and then calmly point to the rules (don't quote them or say "it says this", bring up the page where it's written and have them read the rule in question).

I also agree that seeing how another character does might be a good idea, another option might be to offer to DM for a while once this campaign is over and see if that changes your ability to enjoy the game and the group dynamics. A system change might also help (something that's either rules light or just has more clearly defined rules that contradict themselves less).

1337 b4k4
2012-12-24, 08:58 AM
I have to ask, is there any reason why you continue to play with this group? Something you're getting out of it other than the play time? Because the way I read it, you don't like how the other players play, you don't like how the DM runs the game, the other players seem to gang up on you, and by your account, seem to be treating you as a side kick. To be honest, if you hadn't said these people were your friends, I'd almost think they were strangers and you had some personal issues with them. Maybe you just need to find another group to play with, that fits your play style better and respects what you're trying to accomplish as a player. Just because these guys are your friends, and they got you into RPGs doesn't mean you have to keep playing with them. Heck, some of my best friends who also got me into RPGs, and who I enjoy playing a game with occasionally, would drive me up a wall if I were playing in a regular campaign with them. And that's perfectly OK, they have different play styles and play goals than I do. That doesn't make either them or me into bad people, it just means we shouldn't play long term campaigns together. Perhaps it's the same for you.

Hopeless
2012-12-24, 09:34 AM
Have you tried volunteering to run a game?

Seems to me that would be a good place to start since they tend to run the same characters and your dm seems to need a time out.

It might help you with your situation especially as you don't have to run BESM and give them something else to consider playing instead.

Yes they could still keep running the same characters but you will be in a ideal position to help them understand a little change is also good.

The one who hates your character, do they hate you or just unwilling to pass that onto the others?

The one who nabs everything time to introduce cursed items and give the group a mission they all have a reason to want to get involved in.

Even the friend of the one who runs nemesis's of your character could get something out of this, and as for your dm what type of character does he like to play?

I'm not saying railroad I'm saying you know how they behave and you're in a position to show them it doesn't have to be that way and still be fun.

Of course they could say no but then perhaps the problem you're experiencing isn't with you but rather with them and you might want to consider taking some time out to consider whether they're the group for you?

Sorry but I figured this ought to be said.

Jay R
2012-12-24, 10:44 AM
I think it's time to look for a group that wants to play the same game you want to play.

GC_Southpaw
2012-12-24, 01:54 PM
No, they just think they understand the rules. x

Thanks for all the replies. I guess I'm gonna talk to them about it. I'm definitely going to assert myself more with my new character. Make him important to the plot whether they like it or not. It might help. Thing is, I do run a group separate from them. We have a lot of fun, so maybe i'll invite them in.

There's absolutely no hate in the group. I joined because my girlfriend at the time was friends with the DM. When we broke up I continued playing with them. They're nice people. Hell, I just got gifts from them for christmas. So it's not like they're harboring ill will. This is gonna be tough though.

Perhaps it's like one of you said. Maybe I just can't play a long term campaign with them without them driving me up a wall. I have another group out at WVU. We actually use a grid to fight, so that in itself is more than enough to keep me going. They're great people too, even if I haven't known them for as long.

I appreciate the comments, guys. It helps a lot.

Alejandro
2012-12-24, 03:04 PM
No, they just think they understand the rules. x

Thanks for all the replies. I guess I'm gonna talk to them about it. I'm definitely going to assert myself more with my new character. Make him important to the plot whether they like it or not. It might help. Thing is, I do run a group separate from them. We have a lot of fun, so maybe i'll invite them in.

There's absolutely no hate in the group. I joined because my girlfriend at the time was friends with the DM. When we broke up I continued playing with them. They're nice people. Hell, I just got gifts from them for christmas. So it's not like they're harboring ill will. This is gonna be tough though.

Perhaps it's like one of you said. Maybe I just can't play a long term campaign with them without them driving me up a wall. I have another group out at WVU. We actually use a grid to fight, so that in itself is more than enough to keep me going. They're great people too, even if I haven't known them for as long.

I appreciate the comments, guys. It helps a lot.

- I was expecting you to tell me the players were 16 or so years old, because they're acting that way.

- Ex girlfriend who is also friends with the DM? Yeah, that's probably part of your problem, even if you aren't aware of it. She may be actively trying to get you to go away. Sometimes the worst people act the nicest.

- Give them one more chance, with clearly spelled out expectations (nothing irrational, just basic things like, What are all the rules changes?) and if they still fail, clearly depart and game with this other group that hopefully does not suck so much. And whatever you do, DON'T invite these people into your non poisoned group.

NikitaDarkstar
2012-12-24, 03:17 PM
Oh one more thing. Since you're friends even outside of the game, try to talk to them (in a nice, civil manner of course) outside of the game. Get together at a coffee shop or for pizza or whatever outside of the game and talk it over when it's not "game time" and of course give everyone a chance to give their point of view. It's quite possible that they don't even realize one of you isn't having as fun as everyone else.

And if things don't work out do explain that it's nothing personal and that you still consider them friends, but you just want different things out of the game.

GC_Southpaw
2012-12-24, 03:52 PM
Nah, she's not trying to get me to go away. We broke up do to, uh, difference in sexual orientation. Anyway, we are friends. She's been in my other group (the one I DM) before, and she knows what she's doing. She's the only one though. (Aside from one other girl, but that's neither here nor there.) Believe me, we've been hanging out for 3 years since we broke up, and if anything she knows the problem too but she's way too passive to do anything.

I will do all of the above, I just hope they're not mad. They're the type to get upset over this.

Alejandro
2012-12-24, 04:01 PM
Nah, she's not trying to get me to go away. We broke up do to, uh, difference in sexual orientation. Anyway, we are friends. She's been in my other group (the one I DM) before, and she knows what she's doing. She's the only one though. (Aside from one other girl, but that's neither here nor there.) Believe me, we've been hanging out for 3 years since we broke up, and if anything she knows the problem too but she's way too passive to do anything.

I will do all of the above, I just hope they're not mad. They're the type to get upset over this.

People usually get upset about something because they are emotionally invested in it, or because they lack enough information to make a logical decision. In your case, I am expecting both, but hoping it is the second. Maybe if you just tell them this isn't fun for you, and give clear reasons why (such as the houseruling issue) they'll see the light.

Jornophelanthas
2012-12-25, 08:38 PM
[WARNING: LONG POST]

I see three related issues:

1. The way you describe it, your group is stuck in a rut, and YOU are the rut they are in. In every single example you mentioned of people "always playing the same thing", it ends up people defining their character role on how they always treat your character in the game (i.e. badly).

2. You appear to be the runt of the group, i.e. you are getting picked on and can be overruled by anyone on anything, and "bad stuff always happens to you". This may all be unconscious or good-natured, but it sounds to me like you have never passed the stage of "the new guy who tags along" with them, even after all these years.
Or, you could have an issue with the DM (assuming this is the same person across all campaigns), as he apparently likes to treat your characters badly and never rules anything in your favour. And you mentioned that the DM has a "short fuse". Is this only when you challenge a ruling, or is he more lenient towards other players? Are you sure this DM (or the entire group) does not have a personal issue with you?

3. I find it rather odd that one member of your group (the one who is hosting the game sessions) is always designated the campaign's "main protagonist", which to me sounds like every story has one person with a license to hog the spotlight, with the rest doomed to being sidekicks. I find this system unfair, because it consciously places one player above the rest. A decent DM should be able to give ALL players some story hooks so that they may ALL feel like heroes.
What also surprises me is the system that the hosting player always receives the spotlight. This implies that the person living furthest away, in the place with the noisy roommates, or who doesn't own a large enough table will NEVER get to take central stage.
However, what truly baffles me is that the group has apparently never CONSIDERED giving you the "main protagonist" role, even after years of playing different campaigns. Have you asked when you can have your turn in the spotlight? Have you asked why it's never you? Have you invited them to host the games at your place (if this is an option to you)?

If I were in such a group, I would ask myself if the other players actually want me to be a part of it, and wonder if perhaps they are being too polite to ask me to leave.

In my opinion, there are three possible solutions to this.

- You could decide to talk to the group (all of them, together or separately, or just the DM, whatever works best), telling them that you feel a bit left out and neglected, and ask them for their thoughts on possible solutions. If they simply never realized you were not having the same amount of fun, then they may actively try to think with you for ways to improve things. It especially helps if the DM is on board for this, because the DM has the biggest influence on the direction of the campaign.
If things don't go your way with this attempt, you can always resort to the other two options below.
- You could decide to leave this troupe of roleplayers (and find other activities to do with them outside of the roleplaying sessions, so you can still be friends), because everyone always seems to get stuck in a pattern that you don't like. By leaving, you could not only free time for more enjoyable roleplaying experiences, but you also force them to re-evaluate their own group dynamic, because they can no longer base their entire roleplaying behaviour on the way that you play. This means that everyone could be better off this way.
- You could decide it is not worth your time to try to change anything, and just keep participating in the roleplaying, letting it all wash over you. If you do not have any deep emotional investment in your characters, the story, or the setting, you could still get some shallow entertainment out of the situation. Just stop expecting any great roleplaying fun, and settle for maybe-decent roleplaying fun.

I hope this helps.

GC_Southpaw
2012-12-26, 04:22 PM
1. Well, they're not solely defined by that, it's just more relevant to my needing advice than anything else.

2. I know I don't have an issue with the (current) DM. We hang out and talk about TV shows together and we have similar views on stuff and everything. He does have a short fuse, but it's not just with me, his girlfriend too. (Nothing abusive though) The problem is, the rulings are weird. We do seem to butt heads on a lot of rulings, but that's only because I know the rulings. In our group, aside from the DM, there's the homeowner (and aunt by marriage to the DM) and they're together often enough that they share thoughts on rules. Aside from them, there's my friend and his girlfriend, and my ex. Those three are rather passive and just sit by accepting what they're told.

3. I AM a good DM. One of my players in a totally unrelated campaign is the grandson of a very influential member of the local American Legion, and we get their ballroom to play. Its totally non-partisan, and while he does call himself the "leading man" it's more of an in-joke. I give all my players equal spotlight in the plot. By that, I mean the group possesses no special character that's related to the main antagonist, has a special secret power, etc. The "poor group" always does. I can't ask to be a main character. They're under the mindset that there is no main character. It's troubling.

I forgot to mention, even when the homeowner is DMing, she still puts an NPC in the leading role. What?