[3.5] Epic Manuever Seeds {WIP, PEACH}

[Mcdt2]

A campaign of mine involving 3 casters and a swordsage are going to hit epic levels, and my swordsage is upset because he doesn't have anything cool like Epic spells. I've done a few minor homebrews for my group in the past, a feat or PrC here and there, but nothing on this massive scale before, but I'm attempting to create a list of Epic Manuever Seeds. I will be focusing on the Setting Sun and Shadow Hand schools for now, as these are the schools my player focuses on.

{Placeholder while I try and figure out how to format all of this:smallredface:}
{EDIT: Well, that too way too long to figure out how to make a table work. Finally figured it out enough to start making progress on this though! Still very much WIP}

How it all works:
This process is much like the creation of Epic spells as detailed in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm). However, the Spellcraft DC to create/use will instead be based on the related skill for that school (ie Jump for Tiger Blade, Concentration for Diamon Mind, etc.) Below are the lists for Factors and Seeds for the Epic Maneuvers. Currently, epic manuevers can be used a number of times per day equal to Key Skill Ranks (KSR)/10, though I am looking into refresh mechanics that are not too overpowered. This usage limit is calculated seperately per discipline, so 30 Ranks Hide and 20 Ranks in Jump give you 3 Shadow Hand and 2 Tiger Blade Epic Maneuvers.

Factors
{table]Type of Maneuver|Martial Lore DC Modifier
Strike (Standard Action)|+5
Strike (Full-Round Action)|+0[/table]

Seeds
Seed: Throw
Setting Sun
Martial Lore DC: 15
Range: Touch
Target: One Creature
Duration: Instantaneous

As part of this maneuver, you must succeed on a melee touch attack against your foe. Resolve the throw as a trip attempt (PHB pg. 158), but you do not provoke attacks of opportunity, and your opponent cannot try to trip you if you lose the opposed check. You can use your Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is higher. You gain a +4 bonus on this ability check. (For each additional +1 on this check, increase the DC by +1).

If you succeed in tripping your foe, you throw it up to 10 feet away from you (For Each additional 5 feet thrown, increase the DC by +2). The target falls prone in the destination space. You choose where it lands. You must place the target in an empty space. If you lack the distance to throw your target into a clear space, it falls prone in its current space.

An enemy you throw with this maneuver does not provoke attacks of opportunity for passing through enemies’ threatened areas as part of the throw, and you can throw an enemy through occupied squares.

[Mcdt2]

Reserved post for future content.

[Mcdt2]

And one last Reservation for Example Epic Manuevers (I'm partial to calling them "Mystic Artes" myself.) If you guys have any ideas while I type all this stuff out, tell me down below!

[Vaz]

I'm not too good on the whole designing process, but what about the possibility of Chaining together certain actions; perhaps granting particular effects?

Remember in the old style fighting games (I'm playing Dynasty Warriors currently so i'll use that as the base); you have two attack buttons; Square and Triangle (S and T), S was Quick Attack, T was Strong Attack. Quick Attack can be chained, up to 6 times, while T ended a chain but did a more powerful attack with a particular move.

Eg SSST was typically a strong Knockback effect, while SSSST allowed you to juggle the opponent; it also allowed you the rare ability to follow up a strong attack with another strong attack immediately, leaping into the air and hitting them back to the ground; SSSSTT.

How am I thinking of using this? Perhaps using something like Time Stands Still allows you to chain in Diamond Nightmare Blade for the ability to Initiate a Coup De Grace against an opponent.

Alternatively; Blends; combining abilities of one with another.

And yet another alternate idea; "Purity/Mastery/Discipline Paragon" rather than learning from another "school" sticking with just one Discipline grants you a Bonus. I,e Time Stands Still nets you 1/4 Martial Initiator level as the number of full attack options you utilise in that turn; ie a Warblade 20 has 5 Full Attacks instead of 2.

[Morph Bark]

This is an interesting start so far, and a pretty nice alternative for Epic Disciplines.

[Prime32]

Basing things on skill ranks rather than a skill check would make things much harder to cheese.

Tying seeds to their discipline's associated skill would also make more sense - martial adepts are less likely to invest in Martial Lore than casters are in Spellcraft, but most were investing in their disciplines' skills pre-epic.

[Mcdt2]

Basing things on skill ranks rather than a skill check would make things much harder to cheese.

Tying seeds to their discipline's associated skill would also make more sense - martial adepts are less likely to invest in Martial Lore than casters are in Spellcraft, but most were investing in their disciplines' skills pre-epic.

You're right, that makes a fair bit of sense. Not sure how to word it then. Never mind, I figured out a not-too-awkward wording.


How am I thinking of using this? Perhaps using something like Time Stands Still allows you to chain in Diamond Nightmare Blade for the ability to Initiate a Coup De Grace against an opponent.


I was thinking this kind of idea, but using the seeds. For example, using a seed that causes a foe to become flat footed for alongside a seed with additional effect on a flat footed foe (Like chaining Strike of the Broken Shield into Shadow Noose.) However, using this in the form of seeds more so duplicates the effects of such strikes, rather than using them outright.

[Arcanist]

I approve of this whole heartily. Please don't bind them to specific schools using them as descriptors for each school since that would greatly weaken the abilities for the maneuvers.

I'm assuming that because of the school descriptors that the specific classes can only learn them making them terrible for the implementation of Homebrewed Martial schools. I recommend classifying them as Strikes, Counters and Boost.

In my opinion Strikes, Counters and Boost should be the 3 basic seeds for the creation of Maneuvers. Although, I'd dream to make my own Epic Maneuver system, I lack the knowledge of the Tome of Battle system myself to be able to create something that would satisfy me :smallfrown:

SO GOOD LUCK :smallbiggrin:

[Mcdt2]

Please don't bind them to specific schools using them as descriptors for each school since that would greatly weaken the abilities for the maneuvers.

I'm assuming that because of the school descriptors that the specific classes can only learn them making them terrible for the implementation of Homebrewed Martial schools. I recommend classifying them as Strikes, Counters and Boost.

Huh. Didn't think about that first part. I was basing this off of Epic Seeds, which carry a school descriptor, but non-specialist casters can use any of them, even if some less effectively. Hmm... I like tying them to discipline, because certain abilities (such as my current example, Seed: Throw) fit best in 1 discipline. Maybe have only a few of them tied down, like those that only 1 discipline has among its moves? hmm... I definitely don't want to cut off homebrew disciplines though.

As for classifying them as Strikes/Boosts/Counters, I had an idea about how to seperate them in such a way. I was thinking I would mark the seeds as Strikes or Boosts, and have a category for Counters that would basically be a limit on when it could be used (ie when someone attacks you) in exchange for lowering the DC to use, in addition to making it usable as an immediate action.

[playswithfire]

If the only requirements for learning an epic maneuver is that you can successfully build it from the various seeds and you can learn the seeds, it doesn't really matter if the seeds are tied to specific disciplines.

The resulting maneuver should have a discipline associated with them, though, since some feats and class features are based on the discipline of a maneuver. As long as the discipline of the seed doesn't prevent a martial adept without normal access to that discipline from using the seed, it's not a problem.

As for the nature of the requirements/DC of the check/ranks required to learn the seed, it kind of depends on how closely you want epic manuevers to track with epic spells. Will an epic martial adept only have access to a certain number of epic maneuvers per day like with epic spells, or will they be able to re-ready them like any other maneuver If the latter, you might want to consider making the seeds easier to learn and the effects somewhat less powerful.