putting half ranks into skills.

[Phaederkiel]

The situation is as follows:

one player of mine plays a bard with bardic knack replacing bardic lore.
He has take one point in each skill he needs points in to roll it.
which results in 1 point in all bardic class skills and 1/2 points in all crossclass skills.

Is that right according to the rules?

and, far more interesting:

could he actually put 1/2 skillpoints in his class skills, freeing up even more points?

(the wording of the feat jack of all trades seems to support that technique)

[BowStreetRunner]

There is no option to put 1/2 skill point into a class skill. The only way to have 1/2 rank in a skill is to put 1 skill point into a cross-class skill.

As for the Bardic Knack ability, for every skill check he can use the greater of either his actual ranks in the skill or 1/2 his bards level. For Decipher Script, Disable Device, Handle Animal, Knowledge (any), Open Lock, Profession, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, Tumble, Use Magic Device - all of which may not be used untrained - he still must be trained in the skill in order to make a skill check at all. He must spend 1 skill point in purchasing ranks in that skill - if it is a class skill he will therefore have 1 rank and if it is a cross-class skill he will have 1/2 rank. Either way, he will now count as trained and can use his actual ranks or 1/2 bard level.

Note that since you can't take 10 with the bardic knack ability (you have to use your actual ranks) it will still be worth running up some skills with which you would want to take 10.

[Phaederkiel]

good to know that this option does not exist.

I think he wants to have tumble really high, and wants to have as many knowledges as possible for his knowledge devotion. Probably 5 in balance and some in perform.

and he has ranks in everything so he can throw everything.

which skills do you think are important to be able to take 10 in?

[Deophaun]

which skills do you think are important to be able to take 10 in?
If they're worth taking, they're worth taking 10 in (some require more effort than others): Jump, Tumble, Climb, Use Magic Device, Concentration, Balance, Ride, Swim, and Craft.

[Chilingsworth]

Also, don't forget that advanced bardic music options require larger numbers of perform ranks. Not to mention PrC prereqs if he's going for any.

[Juntao112]

The only time I have ever seen a reference to half a rank in a skill is in the Jack of All Trades feat in the Complete Adventurer.

You can use any skill as if you had 1/2 rank in that skill. This benefit allows you to attempt checks with skills that normally don't allow untrained skill checks (such as Decipher Script and Knowledge). If a skill doesn't allow skill checks (such as Speak Language), this feat has no effect.
This makes no sense at all, and I often just use the SRD version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#jackOfAllTrades) instead.

[Yuki Akuma]

That makes perfect sense - it's totally possible to have half a rank in a skill if it's cross-class and you only spend one skill point in it. This technically means you're trained in the skill (so you can use it if it's trained-only) but don't have a skill rank bonus to checks with it.

[Phaederkiel]

yes, I think what yuki said is right.
The srd version is just better written, but both versions say essentially the same.

anyway, the interesting question was if he could put half ranks in class skills, squeezing out some more ranks. if he cannot, fine with me :)


I think he maxes tumble, knowledge nature, umd, listen, perform:dance and bluff.
He does not need concentration since he uses melodic casting.

@ Deophaun: nearly your whole list are skills you need to be able to use under pressure, which makes taking 10 impossible anyway.

@ Chilingsworth: do you know some skill requirements for important prestige classes ?

[Juntao112]

That makes perfect sense - it's totally possible to have half a rank in a skill if it's cross-class and you only spend one skill point in it. This technically means you're trained in the skill (so you can use it if it's trained-only) but don't have a skill rank bonus to checks with it.

You are only considered trained in a skill if you have one full rank in it. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/skillDescriptions.htm)


Trained Only
If this notation is included in the skill name line, you must have at least 1 rank in the skill to use it. If it is omitted, the skill can be used untrained (with a rank of 0). If any special notes apply to trained or untrained use, they are covered in the Untrained section (see below).

[AlchemicalMyst]

You are only considered trained in a skill if you have one full rank in it. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/skillDescriptions.htm)

It still makes perfect sense... it's just that you are not looking closely at the main text of the feat in the book.

Benefit: You can use any skill as if you had 1/2 rank in that skill. This benefit allows you to attempt checks with skills that normally don’t allow untrained skill checks (such as Decipher Script and Knowledge). If a skill doesn’t allow skill checks (such as Speak Language), this feat has no effect. Emphasis mine. It specifically tells you that it allows you to use Trained Only skills with that 1/2 rank. Therefore 1d20 + modifiers alone.

That's exactly what Jack of All Trades is for. It has no effect on skills that can be normally used untrained.


To answer the OP, Yes that is correct but there is no effect for having 1/2 a rank in a cross-class skill and no you cannot put 1/2 a rank in a class skill. However it is possible to have a 1/2 rank in a class skill when you level in a class that has it as one.

[BowStreetRunner]

I find it amusing that the SRD describes being trained as having 1 rank and being untrained as having 0 ranks. Typical. Would it have been too difficult for them to just be consistent? They could just as easily have said:


Trained Only
If this notation is included in the skill name line, you must have at least 1 rank in the skill to use it. If it is omitted, the skill can be used untrained (with less than one rank). If any special notes apply to trained or untrained use, they are covered in the Untrained section (see below).

or:


Trained Only
If this notation is included in the skill name line, you must have at least 1/2 rank in the skill to use it. If it is omitted, the skill can be used untrained (with a rank of 0). If any special notes apply to trained or untrained use, they are covered in the Untrained section (see below).

[AlchemicalMyst]

I find it amusing that the SRD describes being trained as having 1 rank and being untrained as having 0 ranks. Typical. Would it have been too difficult for them to just be consistent? They could just as easily have said:


Trained Only
If this notation is included in the skill name line, you must have at least 1 rank in the skill to use it. If it is omitted, the skill can be used untrained (with less than one rank). If any special notes apply to trained or untrained use, they are covered in the Untrained section (see below).

or:


Trained Only
If this notation is included in the skill name line, you must have at least 1/2 rank in the skill to use it. If it is omitted, the skill can be used untrained (with a rank of 0). If any special notes apply to trained or untrained use, they are covered in the Untrained section (see below).

They are consistent. You cannot use a Trained Only skill with only a half rank. The feat adds an exception to this rule for those that have it.

[Morph Bark]

As I recall, Bardic Knack also doesn't work for skills with less than 1 rank in it. You need at least 1 rank in the skill for Bardic Knack to work with it.

[Phaederkiel]

you are simply right. Bardic knack needs one rank per skill (in all checks which need training, the untrained work without ranks).

still, Bowstreetrunner has it right, the description is not consistent at all.

[DeltaEmil]

Actually, bardic knack only restates the rule about when you're allowed to make checks with skills that can only be used when trained.


If the skill doesn’t allow untrained checks, you must have at least 1 actual rank to attempt the check.

Complete Adventurer's Jack of all Trades-feat does make you capable of rolling checks for any skills, so you can use bardic knack in conjunction with jack of all trades.

[roguemetal]

I think what you're looking for is the feat Able Learner[RoD] combined with the class Factotum[Dungeonscape].

[DeltaEmil]

If you take factotum, then you have no need for Able Learner, because the factotum has all skills as class skills.

Able Learner is only for when you don't want to waste two skill points to get one rank in a cross-class skill.

[Yuki Akuma]

If you take Factotum as your first level, all skills are class skills.

If you then take, say, Rogue at level 2, you no longer have all skills as class skills, but you do have maximum ranks in all skills equal to your level plus 3. Buying a rank in Spellcraft would cost you 2 skill points.

If you have Able Learner, buying that rank in Spellcraft would only cost 1 skill point, no matter what class you're taking a level in.

[RagnaroksChosen]

FYI:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184574

But ya as far as I am concerned, Jack of all Trades and Bardic knack work together.. As I see it via raw. As the Feat Jack of All which essentially adds the "this skill can be used untrained" to all skills.


I am away from my PHB2 ATM so I can't look at the exact wording but the Link above may help.