Best leader builds?

[WarKitty]

No, not in that sense, you silly 4e contaminated people. What I'm looking for is an actual battle commander. Your classic guy that charges out on the front lines leading his army. So, requirements:

- Must have reasonably high charisma, and diplomacy

- Should be able to realistically be on the front line of battle without getting killed.

- Must have tactical skills available - we'll represent this with knowledge (history) and knowledge (local).

- Must have some buffing abilities available.

And for challenge's sake, we'll say the build should be able to function as a squad leader starting at level 3. My first thought would be a bard chassis, but I'm sure you guys can come up with plenty else. 3.5 and PF builds both interesting.

[Chilingsworth]

I'd add Knowledge (Martial Lore) into the mix for tactical knowledge.

Anyway, yeah a Bard Chasis is good, but add some warblade for white raven manuvers, especially white raven tactics.

Basic Build, something like Bard 8/Warblade 1/+ 7 Bard/ +5 Warblade

for feats, take Song of the White Raven, Song of the Heart, Melodic Casting (Perform checks can be used in place of concentration checks, can cast spells, and use command word or spell trigger magic items while maintaining bardic music) Lyric Spell (can use bardic music to cast spells) Use your other feats to improve your combat effectiveness

For manuvers, focus on white raven, but also pick up Iron Heart Surge

[WarKitty]

I'd add Knowledge (Martial Lore) into the mix for tactical knowledge.

Anyway, yeah a Bard Chasis is good, but add some warblade for white raven manuvers, especially white raven tactics.

Is that a published thing? I'm trying to keep it more book-independent, so I don't end up with some classes being ruled out because they weren't updated to include newer skills.

[Tvtyrant]

1 level of bard/19 levels of Crusader with Song of the White Raven.

[Fates]

The Marshal class is supposed to be good for this...emphasis on "supposed;" I think I'll take a peak at it before I make a judgement. If it is, though, I'd go with a bard 2/Martial 1, or vise-avers, depending. Music of the heart to give your inspire courage even greater effect, and keep those troops kicking.

[docnessuno]

With ToB and PHB you can get an awesome Crusader / Bard or Warblade / Bard

More splatbooks are useful for inspire courage optimization, but not really needed.

Martial lore, Crusader and Warblade are from the same splatbook (tome of Battle)

[Chilingsworth]

Is that a published thing? I'm trying to keep it more book-independent, so I don't end up with some classes being ruled out because they weren't updated to include newer skills.

Martial Lore is in Tome of Battle. It's used to identify manuvers, and well, for exactly the type of information you want.

While we're on the subject of skills, Knowledge (arcitecture and engineering) and Profession (Siege Engineer) might be useful, either to allow you to direct consturction of field fortifications, or to assist in the overcoming of same.
Also, sense motive and bluff are useful both for interacting with your own troops and for parleys, and because they give synergy to diplomacy.

As for bard spells, you'll want at least one cure spell, maybe a summoning spell, and definately dimension door for tactical teleportation, and definately haste.

I'd recomend taking mostly bard, actually. Both because it allows use of dimension door, and because it allows additional bardic music types.

With Bard 15/Warblade 5 you'll have +16 BAB at level 20 and 5th level bard spells. Or, Bard 16/Warblade 4, you'll have +16 BAB and 6th level spells (but fewer manuvers) Also, with either option, you'll have initiator level 12, and so be eligible to take level 6 manuvers.

[Qwertystop]

The Marshal class is supposed to be good for this...emphasis on "supposed;" I think I'll take a peak at it before I make a judgement. If it is, though, I'd go with a bard 2/Martial 1, or vise-avers, depending. Music of the heart to give your inspire courage even greater effect, and keep those troops kicking.

Oh, there's an item set in MIC that gives extra bonuses to Marshals and Bards. Just playing a Bard, I always get the one for extra IC. Both classes together is just begging to get the complete set.

[Fates]

Okay, yeah, Marshal is pretty bad. They really don't have ANYTHING going for them. Basically the entire class is far inferior to a bard's bardic music ability alone. If you were going to suggest a 3rd-level character, a marshal 2/bard 1 COULD work, but within a couple levels those marshal levels would be worth practically nothing. For the long term, I'd go with just bard and find some good PrCs.

[A_S]

The bardblade/bardsader suggestion one is an excellent one. If you want slightly higher-op and more focused toward late levels, I've been working on a gish version of that build that also gets some passable out-of-combat healing utility:

-----

Silverbrow Human

Stats (28 point buy):
Str: 10
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 14
Cha: 15

1 - Bard 1 - Knowledge Devotion, Dragonfire Inspiration
2 - Bard 2
3 - Bard 3 - Snowflake Wardance
4 - Bard 4 - Cha 16
5 - Bard 5
6 - Crusader 1 - Song of the White Raven
7 - Bard 6
8 - Bard 7 - Cha 17
9 - Warblade 1 - Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots)
10 - Druid 1
11 - Sublime Chord 1
12 - Sublime Chord 2 - Open Least Chakra (feet), Cha 18
13 - Fochlucan Lyrist 1
14 - Fochlucan Lyrist 2
15 - Fochlucan Lyrist 3 - Arcane Strike
16 - Fochlucan Lyrist 4 - Cha 19
17 - Fochlucan Lyrist 5
18 - Fochlucan Lyrist 6 - Practiced Spellcaster (Sublime Chord)
19 - Fochlucan Lyrist 7
20 - Fochlucan Lyrist 8 - Wis 15

ACF's: Eberron Bard (Suggestion > Song of the Heart at level 7), Healing Hymn, Savage Bard, Spellbreaker Song

Maneuvers:
6 - Battle Leader's Charge, Crusader's Strike, Douse the Flames, Mountain Hammer, Vanguard Strike, Bolstering Voice (stance)
9 - Action Before Thought, Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, Punishing Stance (stance)

-----

The build uses Eberron material, but nothing that's setting-specific, flavorwise. In terms of fluff, works well as a charismatic-leader nature's-warrior type.

Crunch-wise, gets:
-16 BAB
-9th level sublime chord spells, 3rd level bard spells, and 5th level druid spells (though these come online late).
-Nearly full Inspire Courage progression (misses out on 2 levels, which can be made up with a Vest of Legends), with DFI, as a swift action.
-All the good low-level maneuvers (White Raven Tactics, Iron Heart Surge, Mountain Hammer, and Action Before Thought for the build's only low-ish save).
-Enough healing chops to probably hack it as a party's out-of-combat healer.
-Any knowledge skills you want.

-----

That said, most campaigns that start at level 3 won't go long enough to take advantage of the late-level gish goodness, so going straight bardsader is probably just as good for your purposes. Depends on whether you want "I can do magic" as part of your schtick.

[Piggy Knowles]

I'd start with a silverbrow human with three levels of bard, taking Extra Music, Dragonfire Inspiration and Song of the Heart as my first three feats. Follow it up with Crusader, and take Song of the White Raven at 6th. Lingering Song at 9 will let you use both regular inspire courage and the DFI version simultaneously.

For maneuvers, focus on charging and White Raven maneuvers. Leading the Charge and White Raven Tactics are good places to start.

[WarKitty]

How about a few PF builds, while we're at it? I'm mostly grabbing things to add to the NPC library. One of these guys would make a great recurring antagonist.

[Fates]

How about a few PF builds, while we're at it? I'm mostly grabbing things to add to the NPC library. One of these guys would make a great recurring antagonist.

Inquisitors get some decent leadership abilities, and paladins in pathfinder are much better, especially as buffers. I once played a paladin/grey guard military commander in a pathfinder game, and he did really spectacularly in the field, though I had some good homebrewed items.

[BowStreetRunner]

Heroes of Battle may be a resource you would find useful. In particulary, take a look at

The Commander mechanic introduced on page 75;
The section on new uses for skills introduced on page 93;
The new feats introduced on page 97;
The Legendary Leader prestige class introduced on page 107; and
The Teamwork Benefits introduced on page 11.

[docnessuno]

In PF i like the Battle Herald PRC:

Cavalier (Order of the Lion) 3 / Bard (savage skald) 2 / Battle herald 10 / Cavalier +5

[Vaz]

A Marshal is just a dip to get +Cha bonus to any of his Stats.

Cha bonus to Dex, Iajutsu Master for Dex to Attack and Damage with a Katana and a reasonably pumped Cha does a Fair bit for you.

Base 18 Cha
+4 from Magic Blooded Unseelie Fey/Lesser Aasimar (+0 LA).
+5 from Stat increases
+3 from Venerable (although this is cancelled out by the Dex penalty, the Cha bonus can be applied elsewhere; Strength, Con etc).

+6 from Cloak of Charisma (enhancement)
+5 Tome of Leadership and Influence (inherent)

Taking Tattooed Monk (Bellflower) lets you add Cha bonus to any stat; including itself.

So taking all of that gives you a Cha 41, if you can finangle a further +1 from somewhere, that is a +16 Bonis; combine with Bellflower (1/day) on an Iaijutsu attack you essentially Sneak Attack for +32 Damage on Each Damage Die from Iaijutsu Focus (Crank it up; again a Cha based Skill; to be hitting 50+, and you'll be addimg 9d6+192), and +32 to Initiative.

Build Requires; Lawful, BAB +6, Iaijutsu Focus 9Ranks, and 3 Fighter Feats for
IM.

An Oriental Adventures Samurai and a PHB Fighter can qualify at Level 6; a Fighter gets an extra feat, while a Samurai can burn XP for a Magic Katana enhanced with all sorts of naughty enhancements.

While advancing IM (arguably needing only IM 8); you should get Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple for your Feats; these can always be useful if for the only reason if you lose your Weapons you can punch stuff to death thanks to your "Motivate" ability. Requires Knowledge Religion, though.

Tattoed Monk Bellflower gives 1/day for each tattoo you possess; you only really need 1, (Bellflower); but if you take Crane tattoo while still young, you don't suffer Stat drops for getting old; (TM 3)- which has the benefits of giving you 1d6 unarmed damage, and +10ft Move Speed.

If going Diplomancer and less need for Combat Buffs; White Mask tattoo (TM 3 required) makes you immune to Detect Thoughts, Lies and Alignment and +10 to Bluff.

As I am just going for Bellflower I shall leave it at TM 1;

Marshal gives you the Cha Bonus to anything; as well as affecting allies (allies includes yourself, naturally).

So; Sam 6/IM 8/TM 1/Marshal 1 gives us 16. There are 4 More levels still to go.

Crusaders get Cha bonus to Will Saves (and you can change the marshal aura to any other stat as well for Fort or Reflex as and when), access to up to 6 Maneuvres, Delayed Damage which grants +2 damage and attack bonus, and 6 Maneuvres with 2 Stances.

I'll look at maneuvres in a bit. You'll want 1 White Raven Stance for White Raven Defense and 2 WR Maneuvres for Clarion Call; Leading the Charge can net your allies +12 to damage when charging as a Stance in a 60ft radius. Lion's Roar is fairly nice; +5 Morale to damage after dropping an enemy; initiate a combat
with an Iaijutsu Strike to drop enemy, and Lion's Roar while some sort of Ubercharger/Multiattacker turns up with +17 Damage. For an attack; White Raven Strike; 4d6 additional damage; which causes them to be flat footed; yep, you guessed it; Iaijutsu Strike. At 20th you know up to 6th level Maneuvers.

You have space for 3 other Maneuvres and 1 More Stance; Rallying Strike (Heals 3d6+12 to allies within 30ft), Martial Spirit, Wall of Blades (through Martial Study), Shadow Stride (again, Martial Study) all work reasonably well.

To make the damage actually hit hard; you could go for Slippers of Battle Dancing; wear light armour and move 10 feet to gain Dex to Damage as well with 1 Handed Attacks. No 2 Handed Bonus but why would you?

Gauntlets of Heartflet Blows do Fire Damage (=[ ) but the bonus is equal to your Cha bonus.

Another Feat worth looking at is Open Grrater Chakra (Throat) for Incorporeal Subtype (Cha bonus to AC).

Flaws; Shaky; you have very little need for Ranged attack; plus you can just Bellflower Shift over if desperate.

So, Leadership; I'd go for something like (not optimized fully yet, mind)

OA Samurai 6/Iaijutsu Master 8/Crusader 1/Tattooed Monk 1/Marshal 1/Crusader +3.

Magic Items; Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows, Slippers of Battle Dancing, Cloak of Charisma +6, Book of Leadership and Influence +5.

[kestrel404]

I've got a few builds along these lines, depending on how many you intend to 'lead'.

My first build is for 'party leader' and is intended as a local-area booster to everyone around him. I call him the Auramancer:
Half Unseelie Fey Silverbrow Human
Bard 2/Martial 1/Mythic Exemplar 10/Divine Mind 5/Bard +2
Feats: Dragon Wings, Draconic Aura (Vigor), Song of the Heart, Improved Dragon Wings, Draconic Aura (Power), Double Draconic Aura, and 2 others

The gist of this build is that you stand in the middle of the party and provide them with various helpful bonuses and abilities to everyone near you. You Mythic Exemplar level stacks with bard to determine your inspire courage, and partially stacks with Martial for martial auras. As a silverbrow human, your Draconic auras advance based on character level, and unseelie fey (winter) gives you an aura that applies your cha as a penalty to enemy saves. Divine Mind 5 gives you the choices of several nice auras out to 15 feet, including DR 2/- and +2 energy damage to all hits of a type you choose when you activate it.

[Qwertystop]

stuff

Please, make a cursory effort to check your spelling and not capitalize at random.

[Vaz]

i wIlL d0 AS anD whEN I'M n0T typing on my phone.

If you have further complaints in regards to such minor imperfections in regards to my answers to the subject, I would greatly appreciate you purchasing me a computer or laptop, or some other method of easier typing.

By all means though, feel free to criticise my build. After all that was the intention of my answer and spending time doing so. If you are not going to do
so I'd appreciate you not wasting my time with such minor qualms. Thankyou and merry christmas.

[dantiesilva]

If you know what you are doing a marshal can become very devasting. Use the marshal for cha like was suggested for the major aura grab one from the dragon shaman. Keep in mind only a two level dip, take a few warblade then go dragon samurai for fun. It is a build that has brought me much enjoyment. You could also make a charger using the marshal guidelines. The possibility are endless as long as you are creative enough.

[Amnestic]

1 level of bard/19 levels of Crusader with Song of the White Raven.

I'm no expert on Tome of Battle, but isn't it generally better to enter into the ToB classes at even levels (i.e. Bard 2/Crusader 18, Bard 4/Crusader 16 etc.) due to the way the maneuvers and IL work?

I like Bard 4/Crusader (or Warblade) 16 personally. Four uses of Bardic Music per day, spells (Inspirational Boost), 3rd level Bard for Song of the Heart...

Bard 3/Marshal 1/(Crusader or Warblade) 16 would work too.

[Piggy Knowles]

I like at least three levels in bard, for access to Song of the Heart and Inspirational Boost, neither of which you get with only one level. Plus, Song of the White Raven doesn't increase your uses per day of bardic music, so a couple of levels helps (as does the Extra Music feat).

That said, Bard 4/Crusader 16 and Bard 3/Crusader 17 have the same BAB and IL in the end. So yeah, you could go up to bard 4 for an extra music use and a second level spell, or you could go crusader 17 for an extra maneuver known.

[Tvtyrant]

I'm no expert on Tome of Battle, but isn't it generally better to enter into the ToB classes at even levels (i.e. Bard 2/Crusader 18, Bard 4/Crusader 16 etc.) due to the way the maneuvers and IL work?

I like Bard 4/Crusader (or Warblade) 16 personally. Four uses of Bardic Music per day, spells (Inspirational Boost), 3rd level Bard for Song of the Heart...

Bard 3/Marshal 1/(Crusader or Warblade) 16 would work too.

But I believe Crusader is the exception due to the 5th level stance being gained at the wrong level? You want to offset Crusader by one level if my memory serves me.

[JaronK]

Here's a far too massive discourse on the topic, just because I have it:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3065.0;wap2

But I think the biggest question is one of scale. Leading a small group? Warblade or Crusader with a focus on White Raven maneuvers. Leading a large army? I'm a big fan of Bards for that.

JaronK

[dspeyer]

But I believe Crusader is the exception due to the 5th level stance being gained at the wrong level? You want to offset Crusader by one level if my memory serves me.

On the other hand, if you start crusader before level 5 you're forced to learn a bunch of weak maneuvers. And weak maneuvers actually make a crusader weaker (unlike a warblade, who can choose not to use them).

[WarKitty]

Here's a far too massive discourse on the topic, just because I have it:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3065.0;wap2

But I think the biggest question is one of scale. Leading a small group? Warblade or Crusader with a focus on White Raven maneuvers. Leading a large army? I'm a big fan of Bards for that.

JaronK

Hmmm...I was thinking large army, myself.

PF seems to have Battle Herald for this - maybe cavalier 2/ Bard 2/Fighter 2/Battle Herald 10/something?