GitP Community's Fighter Fix Game!

[Rogue Shadows]

The Fighter
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Bonus feat
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|Bonus feat
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|
4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1|Bonus feat
5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1|
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+2|Bonus feat
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+2|
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+2|Bonus feat
9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+3|
10th|
+10/+5/|
+7|
+3|
+3|Bonus feat
11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+3|
12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+4|Bonus feat
13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+4|
14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+4|Bonus feat
15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+5|
16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+5|Bonus feat
17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+5|
18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+6|Bonus feat
19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+6|
20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+6|Bonus feat[/table]

Hit Die: d10
Skill Points: 2 + Int modifier, x4 at 1st level. Class Skills: Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Ride, and Swim

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.

Well, there it is, in all its glory: the 3.5 Fighter, magnificently given the update it badly needed from 3.0 by...

...changing absolutely nothing. WotC, there's dropping the ball, and then there's actively passing the ball to the other team.

So I was looking over the recent trend of Fighter fixes, and considering that Fighter is probably the most fixed class out there, and that threads concerning fixing or updating or changing the fighter are quite possibly the single most common on this board. Certainly in the top 5. Everyone agrees that the fighter needs fixing, but no one seems to agree on how to fix it in a way that everyone likes, or at least can live with.

So then I got to thinking. The thought process was like this:
1) D&D is a game
2) And this is a message board dedicated to gaming...
3) Why not turn fixing the fighter into a game?

Let's all get together and do our best for one of the four most iconic classes of RPGs everywhere!

Oh, but games need rules.

DA RULES
1) Be excellent to one another. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmfnOerNYuE)

2) Claim a turn before posting a change. This will establish a change-order based on who's claimed first. For example, Mike claims, then gets to work on his change, then Mindy claims and patiently waits for Mike while working on her own change, then John makes a change without waiting, then Mark claims, and patiently waits for Mike and Mindy. Mike sees John's change but notes that John didn't have a claim, so just ignores John's change and posts his change. Then Mindy posts hers, then Mark posts his. John, you should have been patient.

3) No More than 3 people can have a claim at a time. Mike claims, then Mindy claims, then Mark claims. John has to wait before making his claim. For fairness' sake, if you've made a claim, you can't make another claim for 8 hours. Further, if someone makes a claim, but then does not do anything, they're skipped after 4 hours.

4) How To Make Changes: When you make a change to the Fighter, you can do one of the following things:
- Add a single class feature. This can be something that exists already (like Evasion) or something you make up; whatevs. If the feature normally improves by level (such as Evasion becoming Improved Evasion) or scales by level (such as Trapfinding), you can include the improvement/scaling, of course.
- Remove a single class feature. This can include class features installed by other posters. Try not to become bogged down in a war of move/remove, though. Exception: You can only remove one bonus feat at a time (but why would you want to?)
- Edit an existing class feature, such as changing something that advances every 6 levels to instead advance every 4 levels. Exception: The Fighter bonus feat progression can't be advanced to be any faster than it is right now. It's already the fastest in 3.X and it doesn't need improving.
- Add 2 skill points per level and up to 5 class skills, or remove 2 skill points per level (minimum 2) and up to 5 class skills (minimum 7).
- Raise or lower the Fighter's HD by one step (to a minimum of d8 and a maximum of d12).
- Change one of the Fighter's base save progressions.

5) Large changes, such as installing maneuvers, spells per day, fighting styles, and so on, are not allowed. I think we're all collectively creative enough that we can make a fun and interesting class without them.

6) Discussion is encouraged, of course.

7) Having made a change and posted it, please include it in an up-to-date table and list of fighter class features (see my post below for an example).

Right...let's see what happens!

Oh, and,

Claiming

[Rogue Shadows]

(Note that I claimed, then got to work on the change I intended to install in a separate post).

Right, for my claim, I've decided to install something that I always liked: the Physical Prowess ability from the Dead Levels (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) article, with the exception that it's granted at level 1 instead of level 3. It does absolutely nothing other than fill in those blank spots in the "Special" column...but because it does absolutely nothing, it can be added without impacting the power of the fighter (regardless of whatever power the fighter ends up having). It's small, it's neat, it's flavorful, and it's my contribution.

So, who's next?

The Fighter
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Bonus feat, physical prowess
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|Bonus feat
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Physical prowess
4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1|Bonus feat
5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1|Physical prowess
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+2|Bonus feat
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+2|Physical prowess
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+2|Bonus feat
9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+3|Physical prowess
10th|
+10/+5/|
+7|
+3|
+3|Bonus feat
11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+3|Physical prowess
12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+4|Bonus feat
13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+4|Physical prowess
14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+4|Bonus feat
15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+5|Physical prowess
16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+5|Bonus feat
17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+5|Physical prowess
18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+6|Bonus feat
19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+6|Physical prowess
20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+6|Bonus feat[/table]

Hit Die: d10
Skill Points: 2 + Int modifier, x4 at 1st level. Class Skills: Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Ride, and Swim

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.

Physical Prowess (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter gets a bonus to some aspect of his ability checks that makes him a better warrior. The fighter gains an additional bonus at 5th level and every two fighter levels thereafter (7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). The bonus must be drawn from the following list.

Applied Force (Ex): A fighter can administer force to the weakest points of inanimate objects effectively, giving the character a +1 bonus on Strength checks to break or burst items (see page 165 of the Player's Handbook).

Combat Bearing (Ex): A fighter can steady himself to fight in precarious situations, giving the character a +1 bonus on Dexterity checks to avoid falling when damaged while balancing or moving quickly across difficult surfaces (see Balance on page 67 of the Player's Handbook).

Stamina Reserve (Ex): A fighter can push his body more than normal, giving the character a +1 bonus on Constitution checks to continue running (see page 144 of the Player's Handbook) and to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march (see page 164 of the Player's Handbook).

[bobthe6th]

Fine, claiming.

edit: you need to post the class without the spoilers, as I can't copy your work.
As you are offline, I will just post my changes without making them part of the pretty table.

Right, for my claim, I've decided to install something that I liked the idea of. Feat sets.

A big problem with fighters is they are always one trick ponies. So, lets let them chose to change which kind of pony they are mid combat!

this is going to be poorly phrased, so I would not be offended by someone editing the ability to make sense.

Now you can be a sniper and a lock down tripper, without being both at any one point in time.


Feats sets(Ex): A fighter is skilled at a number of fighting styles. Starting at third level, and every four levels thereafter the fighter can create a feat set. A feat set is a selection of fighter bonus feats equal to the number of fighter bonus feats the fighter has. The fighter must qualify for these feats without his normal fighter bonus feats. Whenever he gains another fighter bonus feat, he can add one to all of his feat sets.

Additionally, the fighter can chose a fighter ACF that replaces a feat he would gain as a fighter as part of a feat list instead of the appropriate feat.

As a free action once per turn, the fighter can chose to replace his fighter bonus feats with one of his feat lists. He is considered to have those feats instead of his normal fighter bonus feats. He will change back to his normal set of feats on the start of his next turn.

you lose the benefits of any feats/prestige classes that require any of your normal fighter bonus feats as long as you are using a feat list.

[Rogue Shadows]

edit: you need to post the class without the spoilers, as I can't copy your work.

Ah, right. Fixed now. Though actually it was the "quotes" that was doing that, not the spoilers.

[bobthe6th]

That is probably a warning sign I am to tiered for this.
any ways, my addition now added to the "official" class.



The Fighter
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Bonus feat, physical prowess
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|Bonus feat
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Physical prowess, Feat list I
4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1|Bonus feat
5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1|Physical prowess
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+2|Bonus feat
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+2|Physical prowess, Feat list II
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+2|Bonus feat
9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+3|Physical prowess
10th|
+10/+5/|
+7|
+3|
+3|Bonus feat
11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+3|Physical prowess, Feat list III
12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+4|Bonus feat
13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+4|Physical prowess
14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+4|Bonus feat
15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+5|Physical prowess, Feat list IV
16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+5|Bonus feat
17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+5|Physical prowess
18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+6|Bonus feat
19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+6|Physical prowess, V
20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+6|Bonus feat[/table]

Hit Die: d10
Skill Points: 2 + Int modifier, x4 at 1st level. Class Skills: Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Ride, and Swim

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.

Physical Prowess (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter gets a bonus to some aspect of his ability checks that makes him a better warrior. The fighter gains an additional bonus at 5th level and every two fighter levels thereafter (7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). The bonus must be drawn from the following list.

Applied Force (Ex): A fighter can administer force to the weakest points of inanimate objects effectively, giving the character a +1 bonus on Strength checks to break or burst items (see page 165 of the Player's Handbook).

Combat Bearing (Ex): A fighter can steady himself to fight in precarious situations, giving the character a +1 bonus on Dexterity checks to avoid falling when damaged while balancing or moving quickly across difficult surfaces (see Balance on page 67 of the Player's Handbook).

Stamina Reserve (Ex): A fighter can push his body more than normal, giving the character a +1 bonus on Constitution checks to continue running (see page 144 of the Player's Handbook) and to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march (see page 164 of the Player's Handbook).

Feats sets(Ex): A fighter is skilled at a number of fighting styles. Starting at third level, and every four levels thereafter the fighter can create a feat set. A feat set is a selection of fighter bonus feats equal to the number of fighter bonus feats the fighter has. The fighter must qualify for these feats without his normal fighter bonus feats. Whenever he gains another fighter bonus feat, he can add one to all of his feat sets.

Additionally, the fighter can chose a fighter ACF that replaces a feat he would gain as a fighter as part of a feat list instead of the appropriate feat.

As a free action once per turn, the fighter can chose to replace his fighter bonus feats with one of his feat lists. He is considered to have those feats instead of his normal fighter bonus feats. He will change back to his normal set of feats on the start of his next turn.

you lose the benefits of any feats/prestige classes that require any of your normal fighter bonus feats as long as you are using a feat list.

Edit: also, I must say this looks like a fun game. Though I think you should ease the 24hour limit until there are a number of players.

also, is it legal to "edit" another's addition as your change? As in changing some facet of the mechanics of another's addition, like making feat lists come every 6 level instead of every 4?

[Seerow]

also, is it legal to "edit" another's addition as your change? As in changing some facet of the mechanics of another's addition, like making feat lists come every 6 level instead of every 4?


Also if editing other features could you make more than one change? Say make a change to two features or add one new feature?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

this is going to be poorly phrased, so I would not be offended by someone editing the ability to make sense.

Done. Also claimed, because I think I can make this an inherent part of the Fighter rather than just an ability. I've also tweaked it a bit so that it flows better, and so that it becomes a more central part of the Fighter. It actually replaces his feats now, although it doesn't REALLY replace them. It just makes them more fluid.


Combat Styles (replaces Bonus Fighter Feats)

At level one, a Fighter gains three Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a single Fighter feat that the Fighter meets the prerequisites for. At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style.

At level 2, and every 2 levels thereafter (4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20) the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 15 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.



The Fighter
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Combat Style
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|Combat Feat
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Physical prowess
4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1|Combat Feat
5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+2|Combat Feat
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+2|Physical prowess, Swift Combat Style
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+2|Combat Feat
9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+3|Physical prowess
10th|
+10/+5/|
+7|
+3|
+3|Combat Feat, Bonus Combat Style
11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+3|Physical prowess
12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+4|Combat Feat
13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+4|Physical prowess
14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+4|Combat Feat
15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+5|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style
16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+5|Combat Feat
17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+5|Physical prowess, Immediate Combat Style
18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+6|Combat Feat
19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+6|Physical prowess
20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+6|Combat Feat, Bonus Combat Style[/table]

Hit Die: d10
Skill Points: 2 + Int modifier, x4 at 1st level. Class Skills: Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Ride, and Swim

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter gains three Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a single Fighter feat that the Fighter meets the prerequisites for. At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style.

At level 2, and every 2 levels thereafter (4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20) the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Physical Prowess (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter gets a bonus to some aspect of his ability checks that makes him a better warrior. The fighter gains an additional bonus at 5th level and every two fighter levels thereafter (7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). The bonus must be drawn from the following list.

Applied Force (Ex): A fighter can administer force to the weakest points of inanimate objects effectively, giving the character a +1 bonus on Strength checks to break or burst items (see page 165 of the Player's Handbook).

Combat Bearing (Ex): A fighter can steady himself to fight in precarious situations, giving the character a +1 bonus on Dexterity checks to avoid falling when damaged while balancing or moving quickly across difficult surfaces (see Balance on page 67 of the Player's Handbook).

Stamina Reserve (Ex): A fighter can push his body more than normal, giving the character a +1 bonus on Constitution checks to continue running (see page 144 of the Player's Handbook) and to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march (see page 164 of the Player's Handbook).

[bobthe6th]

I would suggest allow ACFs that replace feats to be taken as part of the combat styles. I hear fighter has some good ones...

[Rogue Shadows]

Edit: also, I must say this looks like a fun game. Though I think you should ease the 24hour limit until there are a number of players.

Good idea; I'll ease it to 8 hours


also, is it legal to "edit" another's addition as your change?

Sure; I'll add that to OP.


Also if editing other features could you make more than one change? Say make a change to two features or add one new feature?

Sure, though that counts as "your move" still.

[Rogue Shadows]

Combat Styles (replaces Bonus Fighter Feats)

I hate to say this here, but I really do hate things that let switch out, activate, or otherwise emphasize a given combat style in a given day, or even in any given round.

It creates an awful lot of dissonance, is all I'm saying. Per-whatever type things are the domain of spells. A fighter who knows how to Power Attack should be able to Power Attack at will without any kind of preparation.

[Lord_Gareth]

I hate to say this here, but I really do hate things that let switch out, activate, or otherwise emphasize a given combat style in a given day, or even in any given round.

It creates an awful lot of dissonance, is all I'm saying. Per-whatever type things are the domain of spells. A fighter who knows how to Power Attack should be able to Power Attack at will without any kind of preparation.

Let me translate this:

"I hate to say this here, but you've given the fighter a Nice Thing that might lead to it having some kind of versatility, which is simply Not Allowed in a fighter."

[Rogue Shadows]

Let me translate this:

"I hate to say this here, but you've given the fighter a Nice Thing that might lead to it having some kind of versatility, which is simply Not Allowed in a fighter."

Actually what I was trying to say was "If the Fighter is going to have a Nice Thing that grants versatility, I'd like for it to be an at-will Nice Thing that grants versatility."

If a Fighter is going to have multiple combat styles he should be able to switch between them without having to spend a meaningful action preparing himself. If I'm a master swordsman, I'd like to think that I don't forget how, and need a few seconds to remember how, to perform one attack sequence just because I'm currently in the middle of another, though I do imagine that switching in the middle might be awkward. I'd rather see something like, I dunno..."You may switch between one combat style and another as a free action. If you do, however, you take a -5 penalty on your next attack roll."

Or we could have it be a -2 penalty per feat in the combat style you're switching from or to (or both), if we want it to scale...

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I would suggest allow ACFs that replace feats to be taken as part of the combat styles. I hear fighter has some good ones...

I included that ability. Read it again. :-)


I hate to say this here, but I really do hate things that let switch out, activate, or otherwise emphasize a given combat style in a given day, or even in any given round.

It creates an awful lot of dissonance, is all I'm saying. Per-whatever type things are the domain of spells. A fighter who knows how to Power Attack should be able to Power Attack at will without any kind of preparation.

A move action (the longest time it ever takes) is 2-3 seconds. As someone who knows several different combat styles, you don't have them all perfectly in mind all the time. Adjusting to the fight at hand does actually take actual time. A Fighter spending 2 seconds to adjust his style is perfectly realistic. That's 2 seconds being a bit more defensive than usual. At higher levels it's even less time. He effectively still has all his tricks when he needs them.

Further, we're talking combat styles. That's adjusting from being a great swordsman to a great archer. There IS some adjustment time when you switch specializations like that. And a single move action is a small price to pay for effectively tripling your feats pre-7. After level 7 it's a swift action or faster.

Putting an action cost on it also doesn't penalize the Fighter's attack odds like your penalty-to-hit suggestion would, and also, since it's not ENTIRELY free, encourages tactical play rather than always juggling feats for the numerically best situation. I like that decision point.

[Rogue Shadows]

A move action (the longest time it ever takes) is 2-3 seconds. As someone who knows several different combat styles, you don't have them all perfectly in mind all the time. Adjusting to the fight at hand does actually take actual time. A Fighter spending 2 seconds to adjust his style is perfectly realistic. That's 2 seconds being a bit more defensive than usual. At higher levels it's even less time. He effectively still has all his tricks when he needs them.

Like I said above, I'm cool with the fundamental idea of combat styles, I'd just rather they can be switched at-will as a free action at a (minor) penalty; rather than at-will as a move action at no penalty.

If anything I like it more 'cause the latter to me suggests a scene wherein the fighter is in the middle of this awesome combo, stops, backs up a few steps while saying "sorry, sorry, let me try that again;" while the former is a fighter in the middle of an awesome combo but switches halfway through in order to do something else, though he gets off to a clumsy start thanks to switching halfway through.

Like in the last part of the Inigo VS Dread Pirate fight: Inigo was switching to a different combat style (that required two hands), but took a penalty to his attacks, which allowed Wesley to gain the upper hand.

Though you could switch your combat styles multiple times per round undr my suggestion...albeit at a penalty to your next attack each time you did...which is not a bad idea, now that I really think about it, if you're in the middle of a full attack...

There's a build in there somewhere.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

It's a bad idea because it penalizes the fighter for fighting. Penalties to hit isn't encouraging switching tactics. A single action penalty in exchange for a more optimal feat set-up later, however, is a good trade and creates interesting decision points in combat.

Think of it less of a "better back up an try this again" and more of "let's switch things up...but rather than switch carelessly and throw off my accuracy, let's take an extra second to make sure I do this right."

A true master swordsman won't let changing styles mess up his attack. He'll take the moment to adjust (fluff up the move action that way) and come right out at the peak of his form. Remember: your "similar attack" feats will likely be part of the style. A combat style swap is more like resetting your distance, changing your tactics, and going in again. You should be doing that after every attack anyway, so there's really no break in the combat flow from a realism angle.

[Rogue Shadows]

It's a bad idea because it penalizes the fighter for fighting.

In all honesty a bigger question I have is why do Fighters have to spend a move action at all? No other class has to spend a few moments remembering how to Dodge or Quicken Spell or what have you. I suppose it's a balancing point for tripling the number of feats that Fighters get, but the whole problem with the Fighter class from the get-go was its dependency on feats in the first place. It already got overwhelmingly more bonus feats than any other class, but that didn't help it. Do you really think that even more, most of which it forgets how to use most of the time, are seriously going to help?

The combat style also becomes really dissonance-tastic when you're dealing with prestige classes. A dwarven defender forgets how to be a dwarven defender just because he's got his Power Attack activated? Now not only does Power Attacking give you a penalty to attack, it also takes away your damage reduction, uncanny dodge, and defensive stance if you were in one!

And then there's sheer frustration caused by not having the right feats "on" at the right time. "Trying to sneak on by me? Ha! Eat my extra attacks of opportunity!" "No, McFighterson, you're a Power Attacker right now, remember?" "CRAP!" "Don't worry, McRanger over here can make the extra attacks of opportunity." "And I still remember how to Power Attack while doing so!"

The Fighter already suffered when he had all his feats "on" all the time. Why're you making things harder for him?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

In all honesty a bigger question I have is why do Fighters have to spend a move action at all?

A balancing factor for the pre-5+ levels, where the Fighter remains rather powerful on numerical levels alone. I've upped his versatility in those levels (which was always a bit of an issue) without actually touching his given power at any one point in time. Spending a move action to switch things up is the cost he pays for choosing to tap into that versatility. If he doesn't, he's still his old self, and perfectly fine for the first few levels. As he needs more and more access to those other options, he gets it for less and less of a cost.


No other class has to spend a few moments remembering how to Dodge or Quicken Spell or what have you.

No other class has as many features that could potentially be constantly on as a standard state. You can cast spells, but you are limited to one per round. The limit on this ability is a balancing factor for the tremendous number of feats, but the real reason is to prevent the player from having to track 21+ separate feats at the same time.


I suppose it's a balancing point for tripling the number of feats that Fighters get, but the whole problem with the Fighter class from the get-go was its dependency on feats in the first place. It already got overwhelmingly more bonus feats than any other class, but that didn't help it. Do you really think that even more, most of which it forgets how to use most of the time, are seriously going to help?

Yes. Not much, but a bit. Because this system allows the Fighter to master different things, and thus contribute in different situations. However, since the Fighter was already good at combat, putting to many things on it all at once could swing its balance in a purely numerical fashion: something I'm striving to avoid doing, since its NUMBERS are relatively fine. Thus, we're increasing the number of options, but NOT the number of SIMULTANEOUS options (as that would simply escalate the numerical issue if feats were chosen properly).

In addition, we're adding in-game choice to the Fighter. Now, while you'll still simply attack every turn, you have to make choices about what combat style will be the best for you. It's not a big choice, and NOT making it still leaves you on par with the old Fighter, but you do have options you can consider.


The combat style also becomes really dissonance-tastic when you're dealing with prestige classes. A dwarven defender forgets how to be a dwarven defender just because he's got his Power Attack activated?

Not precisely. More that he can't use his Dwarven Defender abilities because he isn't trained to use them with a bow, or with a Rapier. It falls flat in non-style specific situations, certainly, but I could easily have said "You lose access to class abilities dependent upon those feats, but retain your class features that would function otherwise." We could tack that on.

Also, a Dwarven Defender who wanted that class would probably have made sure Power Attack was a feat he selected with NON-FIGHTER levels. :smalltongue: Either way works though.


And then there's sheer frustration caused by not having the right feats "on" at the right time. "Trying to sneak on by me? Ha! Eat my extra attacks of opportunity!" "No, McFighterson, you're a Power Attacker right now, remember?" "CRAP!" "Don't worry, McRanger over here can make the extra attacks of opportunity." "And I still remember how to Power Attack while doing so!"

That's why it eventually becomes an immediate action. That said, the Wizard can have the frustration of not having the right spell prepared, the Cleric can have the frustration of not having the right buff active...the Fighter can have a little frustration of his own. It means players have to think tactically, and may have to give up option A in exchange for option B. Having to weigh your options and pick what you consider the best one isn't bad design: it adds depth and interest to gameplay.

[Rogue Shadows]

A balancing factor for the pre-5+ levels, where the Fighter remains rather powerful on numerical levels alone. I've upped his versatility in those levels (which was always a bit of an issue)

Curiously, you have managed to "fix" him at a point where the Tier system is flipped. Pre-5th level or so, as outlined in the original Tier system post, Fighter and Ranger and even CW Samurai are actually excellent classes, while Wizard and Cleric and Druid are okay, or even bad. So...where he was already doing fine, you made him a little better.


Not precisely. More that he can't use his Dwarven Defender abilities because he isn't trained to use them with a bow, or with a Rapier. It falls flat in non-style specific situations, certainly, but I could easily have said "You lose access to class abilities dependent upon those feats, but retain your class features that would function otherwise." We could tack that on.

But meanwhile, his Paladin/Dwarven Defender friend is perfectly capable of using a bow while Dwarven Defending at all times.

It just seems...well, I'll say it: stupid. It seems stupid. Dissonant, as well.


That's why it eventually becomes an immediate action. That said, the Wizard can have the frustration of not having the right spell prepared, the Cleric can have the frustration of not having the right buff active...the Fighter can have a little frustration of his own.

The Fighter already has frustration of his own even when he's already getting 80% more bonus feats than any other class other than a Shadowcaster powered through completed paths.


it adds depth and interest to gameplay.

And, as pointed out, frustration where previously there was none. I'll take fewer feats and not having to deal with the frustrations of spellcasters, over more feats, the frustation of not being able to use most of those feats most of the time, gameplay dissonance, and having to deal with the frustrations of spellcasters without also at least being able to cast Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion as a tradeoff. At least prior to this a fighter without Combat Reflexes could take solace in the fact that he couldn't have made those extra attacks anyway. Now he gets the joy of witnessing a tactical blunder at work!

Though on a personal note I'd also appreciate some additional actual class features on top of the existing 11 feats.

The Playground's general opinion of the Feat system is that it's Tier-6 and that Fighters are bad because feats are bad and the fighters are tied to them, so I was sort of hoping that the first addition the Playground made to this project wouldn't be "more feats."

It's like the Fighter's been trolled since 2001 or something...

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

The Playground's general opinion of the Feat system is that it's Tier-6 and that Fighters are bad because feats are bad and the fighters are tied to them, so I was sort of hoping that the first addition the Playground made to this project wouldn't be "more feats."

It's like the Fighter's been trolled since 2001 or something...

Given that I wasn't even the first person to suggest this idea, and I merely took one offered by the poster before me and changed it to be a more intrinsic part of the Fighter rather than a sidenote, I think you're coming down awfully hard on me.

Secondly, you DID say you didn't want to see feats removed. If they're to be that big a part of the Fighter (every other level is HUGE) then giving them versatility is the first step to making them useful without revising things OTHER than the Fighter. Seems a good idea to flesh that out early. It's a lose-lose situation. People complain when you give the Fighter interesting mechanics that aren't feats or numerical bonuses ("It's not the Fighter if you do that!") but they likewise complain when you focus on the feats and try to make the best of a bad situation.

It's for this reason that the Fighter trolls itself. It's to generic, and to open-ended. There are to many ways to improve it, to many ways to fix it, and everyone has an idea of what a Fighter should be.

That being said, I'm bowing out of this thread. You posited a simple game in which a poster would change something, and then others would respond to those changes. I'd have expected the change the poster before me suggested (Feat groups) and my alteration of that mechanic (into Combat Styles) to be allowed to stand until another poster chose to remove them. If you have such a preconceived view of what the Fighter must be, then I think this thread doesn't serve it's intended purpose at all. I further don't intend to derail it any further by trying to convince you that the feat section of the Fighter must either be expanded upon, or removed (at least cut 50% from its current state), or in trying to convince you that I have enough design experience under my belt to have a rather good idea of what I'm talking about, and how these ideas will carry at the average gaming table.

I wish you the best of luck in this endeavor, and I hope it widens your view of what a Fighter can...and perhaps should...ultimately be.

[Rogue Shadows]

Given that I wasn't even the first person to suggest this idea, and I merely took one offered by the poster before me and changed it to be a more intrinsic part of the Fighter rather than a sidenote, I think you're coming down awfully hard on me.

*shrug*. You're the only one posting.


Secondly, you DID say you didn't want to see feats removed.

While I have said that in the past, notice I took the opposite tack in the rules above: the feats can be removed, simply not in one fell swoop (I think that's too huge a change in one go), and I specifically limited a faster bonus feat progression, not a slower one.


People complain when you give the Fighter interesting mechanics that aren't feats or numerical bonuses ("It's not the Fighter if you do that!") but they likewise complain when you focus on the feats and try to make the best of a bad situation.

But you didn't even try the first way...


If you have such a preconceived view of what the Fighter must be,

I'm not saying what the fighter should or shouldn't be, I'm pointing out a flaw in the idea of combat styles as they've been presented: while they create some versatility, they also create the possibility for tactical failure where previously none existed, and they do it by shutting down entire swaths of feats (and potentially also additional abilities) at a time, something that no other class has to deal with, in a system that it has never applied to before, for a benefit that is minimal at best.

Sure, the Wizard might have prepared the wrong spell, but at least he shares that regret with the Cleric, the Druid, and every other prepared caster, and at least he can reliably count on his Spell Penetration to work every time he wants it to.

There are ways to creating a versatile fighter without making him forget how to use a bastard sword with one hand for sixteen hours a day, is all I'm saying.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

But you didn't even try the first way...

Correct. Because I saw a system proposed by someone before me that I felt needed revision before I suggested anything new myself. I'm a perfectionist that way.


...they also create the possibility for tactical failure where previously none existed, and they do it by shutting down entire swaths of feats (and potentially also additional abilities) at a time, something that no other class has to deal with, in a system that it has never applied to before, for a benefit that is minimal at best.

They do this, true. But note HOW they do it. They don't say that a Fighter will fail at things. The Fighter has MORE tactical options than ever before. He just has the same number at any given time. So any tactical failing leaves the Fighter no worse off than he was before, but a bit of luck actually puts him AHEAD of where he was. He literally loses nothing.


There are ways to creating a versatile fighter without making him forget how to use a bastard sword with one hand for sixteen hours a day, is all I'm saying.

Correct. But you're exaggerating the situation. Firstly, Exotic Weapon Proficiencies should probably be a given for the Fighter. Secondly, if you plan on using that with your Combat Style, it should be a part of that Combat Style. You're never going to NEED to fight with a Bastard Sword when in your Archery Combat Style though...and if you have to pull it out because someone is closing in, you simply switch back to your old style. Pre-level 7 you have versatility and no more power. Post 7 you gain a bit of both, because switching only loses you a single swift action. Again, you're losing nothing. You're functioning at peak Fighter capacity at all times, just with different focuses. You can master tripping, grappling, archery, power-attacking, and mounted combat...you just can't use them all at once before level 7. Previously you'd never have the CHOICE to have them all. The only downside with this addition is that, occasionally, you'll realize you could have been in a better style for the situation. Previously you'd regret your feat choices: not you just regret being in the wrong style, and you can fix that on your next turn.

And, like your Wizard and his spell penetration example...at least you've got your basic attack to fall back on. It works every time you want it to. Maybe you don't have the exact feat you wanted, but the Wizard may not have the exact spell HE wants either. Sure, you might have to use a less-empowered one for an attack or two, but that's the price you pay for being both a great archer AND a great melee combatant. That first round of melee might just be a little less effective than you'd like, and, after that, you're a beast. Just like you were with arrows when they closed in.

But I will keep to my word: enjoy your thread. I would, however, be interested to see the input of others on what I've suggested, and whether or not it's as negative an addition as you seem to think it is.

[Rogue Shadows]

They do this, true. But note HOW they do it. They don't say that a Fighter will fail at things. The Fighter has MORE tactical options than ever before. He just has the same number at any given time. So any tactical failing leaves the Fighter no worse off than he was before, but a bit of luck actually puts him AHEAD of where he was. He literally loses nothing.

Except that extra attack of opportunity when he needed it. Basically it's worse to miss something because of a tactical blunder, then it is to miss something but you never could have actually made it in the first place, or at least I feel that way.

Like that scene from the most recent Muppet movie: "Or... not. Eh, kinda makes me feel better, actually. We were nowhere close at all!"

It's trying to make the feat system behave like the Vancian spell system, but only for the fighter, basically. If the goal is to give the Fighter more tactical options, why not just give it to him in the form of some actual, decent class features? That's what every other class gets.

(I'm not so much a fighter purist as a system purist...I want my spells to act like spells, my feats to act like feats, and my skills to act like skills. I don't like it much when they overlap).

[Vaz]

I thought this was "Community Fighter Fix", not "Rogue Shadow's Fighter Fix relying on the community doing the work for him"?

You might not like spells, psionics, meldshaping or tome of battle mechanics. Fair enough; but this isn't "yours".

Now I do know a descision by community is often a compromise and the unofficial definition of compromise is a decision where nobody is happy with the result, but you do need to let go of the reins some time.

For what it is worth; I do not like Vancian Spellcasting, or other systems where Learning "X" requires "forgetting" "y".

Albert Einstein didn't have to read all of his textbooks and physics for dummies to learn his 0-level Physics equations every day; why should a Wizard? Hence; applying the same to a Fighter who daily "remembers" how to use a particular weapon group seems particularly odd to my mind.

This was a nice idea; but as soon as someone started saying "but that doesn't fit my idea of a fighter" it loses its purpose and my interest in it. As to editing other suggestions; I'd say that deleting ideas would be wrong, and frankly quite rude. If it is a bad idea; improve it, if it is too complicated streamline it. Every little helps especially when class features are "free" passive boosts. EG is it worth having a Class Feature which grants +4 to Fort Saves at 20th? Or one granting +Class Level as a bonus to Fort Saves?

[Eldan]

Small thing first.


The Fighter
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Combat Style
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|Combat Feat
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Physical prowess
4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1|Combat Feat
5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+2|Combat Feat
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+2|Physical prowess, Swift Combat Style
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+2|Combat Feat
9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+3|Physical prowess
10th|
+10/+5/|
+7|
+3|
+3|Combat Feat, Bonus Combat Style
11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+3|Physical prowess
12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+4|Combat Feat
13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+4|Physical prowess
14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+4|Combat Feat
15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+5|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style
16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+5|Combat Feat
17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+5|Physical prowess, Immediate Combat Style
18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+6|Combat Feat
19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+6|Physical prowess
20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+6|Combat Feat, Bonus Combat Style[/table]

Hit Die: d10
Skill Points: 6 + Int modifier, x4 at 1st level. Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: history, Knowledge: nobility, Knowledge: local, Listen, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot and Swim

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter gains three Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a single Fighter feat that the Fighter meets the prerequisites for. At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style.

At level 2, and every 2 levels thereafter (4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20) the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Physical Prowess (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter gets a bonus to some aspect of his ability checks that makes him a better warrior. The fighter gains an additional bonus at 5th level and every two fighter levels thereafter (7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). The bonus must be drawn from the following list.

Applied Force (Ex): A fighter can administer force to the weakest points of inanimate objects effectively, giving the character a +1 bonus on Strength checks to break or burst items (see page 165 of the Player's Handbook).

Combat Bearing (Ex): A fighter can steady himself to fight in precarious situations, giving the character a +1 bonus on Dexterity checks to avoid falling when damaged while balancing or moving quickly across difficult surfaces (see Balance on page 67 of the Player's Handbook).

Stamina Reserve (Ex): A fighter can push his body more than normal, giving the character a +1 bonus on Constitution checks to continue running (see page 144 of the Player's Handbook) and to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march (see page 164 of the Player's Handbook).

[MrLemon]

Claim!

I've deem the Combat Style a nice ability in general. However, I'd limit the number of switchable feats to every second one, starting at 2nd level.

That way, the fighter still has a solid base of fixed feats, which help to define the character. He retains up to 6 feats for switching according to the situation.


The Fighter
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Combat Styles (3)
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|Combat Style Feat
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Physical prowess
4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1|Bonus Feat
5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (4)
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+2|Combat Style Feat
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+2|Physical prowess, Swift Combat Style
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+2|Bonus Feat
9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+3|Physical prowess
10th|
+10/+5/|
+7|
+3|
+3|Combat Style Feat, Bonus Combat Style (5)
11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+3|Physical prowess
12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+4|Bonus Feat
13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+4|Physical prowess
14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+4|Combat Style Feat
15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+5|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (6)
16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+5|Bonus Feat
17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+5|Physical prowess, Immediate Combat Style
18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+6|Combat Style Feat
19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+6|Physical prowess
20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+6|Bonus Feat, Bonus Combat Style (7)[/table]

Hit Die: d10
Skill Points: 6 + Int modifier, x4 at 1st level. Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: history, Knowledge: nobility, Knowledge: local, Listen, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot and Swim

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter gains three Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a single Fighter feat that the Fighter meets the prerequisites for. At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style.

At level 2, and every 4 levels thereafter (6, 10, 14, 18) the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

At levels 5, 10, 115, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Physical Prowess (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter gets a bonus to some aspect of his ability checks that makes him a better warrior. The fighter gains an additional bonus at 5th level and every two fighter levels thereafter (7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). The bonus must be drawn from the following list.

Applied Force (Ex): A fighter can administer force to the weakest points of inanimate objects effectively, giving the character a +1 bonus on Strength checks to break or burst items (see page 165 of the Player's Handbook).

Combat Bearing (Ex): A fighter can steady himself to fight in precarious situations, giving the character a +1 bonus on Dexterity checks to avoid falling when damaged while balancing or moving quickly across difficult surfaces (see Balance on page 67 of the Player's Handbook).

Stamina Reserve (Ex): A fighter can push his body more than normal, giving the character a +1 bonus on Constitution checks to continue running (see page 144 of the Player's Handbook) and to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march (see page 164 of the Player's Handbook).

[bobthe6th]

Sad I couldn't cut into the above discussion.

People seem to forget why the ability was added in the first place. It is because a fighter is a one trick pony at most levels, and therefore generally a two level class. You have to spend all of your bonus feats on one combat style(like becoming a lock down tripper) and so if your specific skill set is not applicable you are useless(see any flying opponent for most fighters)... So, yeah, letting the fighter have options is an important part of any fix.

now, that over with, Claiming

My addition was the ability "artifice," which should make having multiple styles viable.


The Fighter
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Combat Styles (3)
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|Combat Style Feat
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Physical prowess, Artifice
4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1|Bonus Feat
5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (4)
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+2|Combat Style Feat
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+2|Physical prowess, Swift Combat Style
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+2|Bonus Feat
9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+3|Physical prowess
10th|
+10/+5/|
+7|
+3|
+3|Combat Style Feat, Bonus Combat Style (5)
11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+3|Physical prowess
12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+4|Bonus Feat
13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+4|Physical prowess
14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+4|Combat Style Feat
15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+5|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (6)
16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+5|Bonus Feat
17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+5|Physical prowess, Immediate Combat Style
18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+6|Combat Style Feat
19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+6|Physical prowess
20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+6|Bonus Feat, Bonus Combat Style (7)[/table]

Hit Die: d10
Skill Points: 6 + Int modifier, x4 at 1st level. Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: history, Knowledge: nobility, Knowledge: local, Listen, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot and Swim

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter gains three Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a single Fighter feat that the Fighter meets the prerequisites for. At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style.

At level 2, and every 4 levels thereafter (6, 10, 14, 18) the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

At levels 5, 10, 115, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Physical Prowess (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter gets a bonus to some aspect of his ability checks that makes him a better warrior. The fighter gains an additional bonus at 5th level and every two fighter levels thereafter (7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). The bonus must be drawn from the following list.

Applied Force (Ex): A fighter can administer force to the weakest points of inanimate objects effectively, giving the character a +1 bonus on Strength checks to break or burst items (see page 165 of the Player's Handbook).

Combat Bearing (Ex): A fighter can steady himself to fight in precarious situations, giving the character a +1 bonus on Dexterity checks to avoid falling when damaged while balancing or moving quickly across difficult surfaces (see Balance on page 67 of the Player's Handbook).

Stamina Reserve (Ex): A fighter can push his body more than normal, giving the character a +1 bonus on Constitution checks to continue running (see page 144 of the Player's Handbook) and to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march (see page 164 of the Player's Handbook).

Artifice(Su): At third level, a fighter has learned something about magical weapons. He may chose to have the highest bonus granting weapon in his possession(carried somewhere on his person) apply all relevant magical bonuses to any weapon he wields.

[lesser_minion]

I'll claim the spot after bobthe6th, then.

The ability I have in mind is potentially a bit of a nightmare, so I don't mind if the rules lawyers jump on it and edit it later.

As for the combat style class feature, I'd have fixed the feats themselves so that you don't need so many to master a given style, but I'm not complaining.

Now to work:


The Fighter
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Combat Styles (3)
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|Combat Style Feat
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Physical prowess, Artifice
4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1|Bonus Feat
5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (4)
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+2|Combat Style Feat
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+2|Physical prowess, Swift Combat Style
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+2|Bonus Feat, Rapid Repositioning (half)
9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+3|Physical prowess
10th|
+10/+5/|
+7|
+3|
+3|Combat Style Feat, Bonus Combat Style (5)
11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+3|Physical prowess
12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+4|Bonus Feat
13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+4|Physical prowess
14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+4|Combat Style Feat
15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+5|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (6)
16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+5|Bonus Feat, Rapid Repositioning (full)
17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+5|Physical prowess, Immediate Combat Style
18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+6|Combat Style Feat
19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+6|Physical prowess
20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+6|Bonus Feat, Bonus Combat Style (7)[/table]

Hit Die: d10
Skill Points: 6 + Int modifier, x4 at 1st level. Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: history, Knowledge: nobility, Knowledge: local, Listen, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot and Swim

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter gains three Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a single Fighter feat that the Fighter meets the prerequisites for. At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style.

At level 2, and every 4 levels thereafter (6, 10, 14, 18) the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

At levels 5, 10, 115, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Physical Prowess (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter gets a bonus to some aspect of his ability checks that makes him a better warrior. The fighter gains an additional bonus at 5th level and every two fighter levels thereafter (7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). The bonus must be drawn from the following list.

Applied Force (Ex): A fighter can administer force to the weakest points of inanimate objects effectively, giving the character a +1 bonus on Strength checks to break or burst items (see page 165 of the Player's Handbook).

Combat Bearing (Ex): A fighter can steady himself to fight in precarious situations, giving the character a +1 bonus on Dexterity checks to avoid falling when damaged while balancing or moving quickly across difficult surfaces (see Balance on page 67 of the Player's Handbook).

Stamina Reserve (Ex): A fighter can push his body more than normal, giving the character a +1 bonus on Constitution checks to continue running (see page 144 of the Player's Handbook) and to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march (see page 164 of the Player's Handbook).

Artifice(Su): At third level, a fighter has learned something about magical weapons. He may chose to have the highest bonus granting weapon in his possession(carried somewhere on his person) apply all relevant magical bonuses to any weapon he wields.

Rapid Repositioning (Ex): A fighter is adept at reading the flow of battle and moving quickly so as to be in the right place at the right moment.

From 8th level onwards, a fighter may move up to half her speed as an immediate action. At 16th level, this class feature improves to allow the fighter to move up to her full speed as an immediate action.

If this class feature is used to interrupt another character's action, the movement granted becomes subject to an 'en passant' rule: the fighter is treated as occupying her original space, her destination space, and every space she passes through on her movement. If she interrupted an attack that passed through one of these spaces, she grants cover to the target of that attack.

Note that a creature may be hit by attacks against which it conferred cover on another creature, even though it was not the original target.

[bobthe6th]

Well, if we could go into full feat fixing... there are some cool things to do. But that is outside the scope of this game.

also, posted up my change.

[Rogue Shadows]

Now I do know a descision by community is often a compromise and the unofficial definition of compromise is a decision where nobody is happy with the result, but you do need to let go of the reins some time.

Please note that if I had wanted to, I could have taken a turn and used it to get rid of the combat styles. I didn't. While I'm against them, I do still understand that this is a community thing.

I should hope I understand that given that I, y'know, started the thread.


My addition was the ability "artifice," which should make having multiple styles viable.

Ooh, I like that one, on the other hand.

[bobthe6th]

Please note that if I had wanted to, I could have taken a turn and used it to get rid of the combat styles. I didn't. While I'm against them, I do still understand that this is a community thing.

I should hope so given that I, y'know, started the thread.

But you did manage to hound out one of the better brew'ers on the forum with an extended argument.
Remember, you can never win an argument. Either you lose, or you win and make the other feel bad. It is a bit of a bad habit that I know I have, but if you can step away and think about the others position rather then posting right back you will be better for it.

edit: yeah, it was always the problem with a lot of styles. You will never have the cash to buy more then 2 level appropriate weapons. Also, now a thrown build could be viable.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Claiming. I've got an idea on how to make combat maneuvers viable at higher levels; we'll see if I can word it coherently.

(Also, for what it's worth, I really like combat styles, bobthe6th/djin_in_tonic. Wonderfully elegant way to handle the oft-suggested benefit of feat switching.)

[lesser_minion]

Change posted. I added Rapid Repositioning. It's pretty flexible -- you can block charges with it, dive in front of a bullet while screaming "Noooooo!", full attack and move, and a couple of other cool things. It might need editing (I completely forgot about mounted combat when I posted it, for a start) and it could potentially be moved around.

[Amechra]

Claiming after Grod the Giant.

I've got a Christmas present for the Fighter, yes I do, yes I do...

[Grod_The_Giant]

Here we go! (I know it's two abilities, but the one is just a continuation of the other by a different name)


The Fighter
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Combat Styles (3)
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|Combat Style Feat
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Physical prowess, Artifice
4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1|Bonus Feat, The Bigger They Are... (1)
5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (4)
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+2|Combat Style Feat
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+2|Physical prowess, Swift Combat Style
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+2|Bonus Feat, Rapid Repositioning (half), The Bigger They Are... (2)
9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+3|Physical prowess
10th|
+10/+5/|
+7|
+3|
+3|Combat Style Feat, Bonus Combat Style (5)
11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+3|Physical prowess
12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+4|Bonus Feat, ...The Harder They Fall
13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+4|Physical prowess
14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+4|Combat Style Feat
15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+5|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (6)
16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+5|Bonus Feat, Rapid Repositioning (full)
17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+5|Physical prowess, Immediate Combat Style
18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+6|Combat Style Feat
19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+6|Physical prowess
20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+6|Bonus Feat, Bonus Combat Style (7)[/table]

Hit Die: d10
Skill Points: 6 + Int modifier, x4 at 1st level. Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: history, Knowledge: nobility, Knowledge: local, Listen, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot and Swim

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter gains three Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a single Fighter feat that the Fighter meets the prerequisites for. At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style.

At level 2, and every 4 levels thereafter (6, 10, 14, 18) the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

At levels 5, 10, 115, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Physical Prowess (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter gets a bonus to some aspect of his ability checks that makes him a better warrior. The fighter gains an additional bonus at 5th level and every two fighter levels thereafter (7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). The bonus must be drawn from the following list.


Applied Force (Ex): A fighter can administer force to the weakest points of inanimate objects effectively, giving the character a +1 bonus on Strength checks to break or burst items (see page 165 of the Player's Handbook).

Combat Bearing (Ex): A fighter can steady himself to fight in precarious situations, giving the character a +1 bonus on Dexterity checks to avoid falling when damaged while balancing or moving quickly across difficult surfaces (see Balance on page 67 of the Player's Handbook).

Stamina Reserve (Ex): A fighter can push his body more than normal, giving the character a +1 bonus on Constitution checks to continue running (see page 144 of the Player's Handbook) and to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march (see page 164 of the Player's Handbook).


Artifice(Su): At third level, a fighter has learned something about magical weapons. He may chose to have the highest bonus granting weapon in his possession(carried somewhere on his person) apply all relevant magical bonuses to any weapon he wields.

The Bigger They Are... (Ex): A true warrior knows that size is not the same thing as strength. Beginning at 4th level, when attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, a fighter gains a +4 bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and the like, effectively cancelling out one size category's worth of difference.

At 8th level, this bonus improves to +8 against foes who are two size categories or more larger than him, effectively cancelling out two size categories worth of difference. Against foes one size larger than him, this bonus is still only +4. For example, a human fighter would have a +4 bonus to grapple checks against and ogre (large size), but a +8 bonus against a cloud giant (huge size).

Rapid Repositioning (Ex): A fighter is adept at reading the flow of battle and moving quickly so as to be in the right place at the right moment.

From 8th level onwards, a fighter may move up to half her speed as an immediate action. At 16th level, this class feature improves to allow the fighter to move up to her full speed as an immediate action.

If this class feature is used to interrupt another character's action, the movement granted becomes subject to an 'en passant' rule: the fighter is treated as occupying her original space, her destination space, and every space she passes through on her movement. If she interrupted an attack that passed through one of these spaces, she grants cover to the target of that attack.

Note that a creature may be hit by attacks against which it conferred cover on another creature, even though it was not the original target.

...The Harder They Fall (Ex): By 12th level, a fighter is a master at redirecting a foe's force. When attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, he gains a bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and so on equal to his opponent's size bonus.

This ability effectively replaces The Bigger They Are...

[bobthe6th]

Grod you might want to make it clear they can make a grapple check against a target two sizes larger then you with the second step of The bigger they are...
the grapiling fighter is calling out to you, do not deny him his do!

[Amechra]

Alright, here's my change; sorry if this is jumping the gun a bit (I did claim after Grod...)


The Fighter
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Perfect War-Skill
1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Combat Styles (3), Perfect War-Skill|+0
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|Combat Style Feat|+0
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Physical prowess, Artifice|+1
4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1|Bonus Feat, The Bigger They Are... (1)|+1
5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (4)|+1
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+2|Combat Style Feat|+2
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+2|Physical prowess, Swift Combat Style|+2
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+2|Bonus Feat, Rapid Repositioning (half), The Bigger They Are... (2)|+2
9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+3|Physical prowess|+3
10th|
+10/+5/|
+7|
+3|
+3|Combat Style Feat, Bonus Combat Style (5)|+3
11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+3|Physical prowess|+3
12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+4|Bonus Feat, ...The Harder They Fall|+4
13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+4|Physical prowess|+4
14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+4|Combat Style Feat|+4
15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+5|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (6)|+5
16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+5|Bonus Feat, Rapid Repositioning (full)|+5
17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+5|Physical prowess, Immediate Combat Style|+5
18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+6|Combat Style Feat|+6
19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+6|Physical prowess|+6
20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+6|Bonus Feat, Bonus Combat Style (7)|+6[/table]

Hit Die: d10
Skill Points: 6 + Int modifier, x4 at 1st level. Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: history, Knowledge: nobility, Knowledge: local, Listen, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot and Swim

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter gains three Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a single Fighter feat that the Fighter meets the prerequisites for. At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style.

At level 2, and every 4 levels thereafter (6, 10, 14, 18) the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Perfect War-Skill (Ex): A Fighter ignores any prerequisites for feats that don't involve BAB, skill ranks, or class features, but only when selecting feats for their Combat Styles.

For all purposes, a Fighter may use either their Perfect War-Skill bonus or their physical ability score modifiers, whichever would be higher. For example, a 12th level Fighter with a Dexterity of 8 would have a +4 bonus to their AC from Dexterity, would get +4 to their Reflex saves, and would get 4 additional attacks of opportunity if they took Combat Reflexes.

In addition, a Fighter of at least 3rd level adds the bonus listed in the Perfect War-Skill column to their BAB for the purpose of prerequisites; finally, if a feat gives a static numerical bonus, use the feat's bonus or the bonus from Perfect War-Skill, whichever is higher.

Physical Prowess (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter gets a bonus to some aspect of his ability checks that makes him a better warrior. The fighter gains an additional bonus at 5th level and every two fighter levels thereafter (7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). The bonus must be drawn from the following list.


Applied Force (Ex): A fighter can administer force to the weakest points of inanimate objects effectively, giving the character a +1 bonus on Strength checks to break or burst items (see page 165 of the Player's Handbook).

Combat Bearing (Ex): A fighter can steady himself to fight in precarious situations, giving the character a +1 bonus on Dexterity checks to avoid falling when damaged while balancing or moving quickly across difficult surfaces (see Balance on page 67 of the Player's Handbook).

Stamina Reserve (Ex): A fighter can push his body more than normal, giving the character a +1 bonus on Constitution checks to continue running (see page 144 of the Player's Handbook) and to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march (see page 164 of the Player's Handbook).


Artifice(Su): At third level, a fighter has learned something about magical weapons. He may chose to have the highest bonus granting weapon in his possession(carried somewhere on his person) apply all relevant magical bonuses to any weapon he wields.

The Bigger They Are... (Ex): A true warrior knows that size is not the same thing as strength. Beginning at 4th level, when attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, a fighter gains a +4 bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and the like, effectively cancelling out one size category's worth of difference.

At 8th level, this bonus improves to +8 against foes who are two size categories or more larger than him, effectively cancelling out two size categories worth of difference. Against foes one size larger than him, this bonus is still only +4. For example, a human fighter would have a +4 bonus to grapple checks against and ogre (large size), but a +8 bonus against a cloud giant (huge size).

Rapid Repositioning (Ex): A fighter is adept at reading the flow of battle and moving quickly so as to be in the right place at the right moment.

From 8th level onwards, a fighter may move up to half her speed as an immediate action. At 16th level, this class feature improves to allow the fighter to move up to her full speed as an immediate action.

If this class feature is used to interrupt another character's action, the movement granted becomes subject to an 'en passant' rule: the fighter is treated as occupying her original space, her destination space, and every space she passes through on her movement. If she interrupted an attack that passed through one of these spaces, she grants cover to the target of that attack.

Note that a creature may be hit by attacks against which it conferred cover on another creature, even though it was not the original target.

...The Harder They Fall (Ex): By 12th level, a fighter is a master at redirecting a foe's force. When attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, he gains a bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and so on equal to his opponent's size bonus.

This ability effectively replaces The Bigger They Are...


I added Perfect War-Skill, by the way.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Grod you might want to make it clear they can make a grapple check against a target two sizes larger then you with the second step of The bigger they are...
the grapiling fighter is calling out to you, do not deny him his do!

What was unclear?

Amechra, I'm not sure what "A Fighter is treated as if they had every single feat for the purpose of qualifying for feats in their Combat Styles only" means.

Also, it should probably be "if the feat gives a static numerical bonus, use the feat's bonus or the bonus from Perfect War-Skill, whichever is higher." And maybe give some help with ability scores. Otherwise, though, it's a fantastic ability.

[Amechra]

I couldn't think of any other "clean" way to say that, for the purpose of their Combat Style feats only, they ignore feat-based prerequisites.

So they could, for example, take Precise Shot without taking Point-Blank Shot.

And I'll change the wording on Perfect War-Skill, at least the bonus part... (I'm going to steal your wording, OK?)

EDIT: I changed wording on Perfect War-Skill, and threw in a bonus for ability scores...

Basically, now you could play even a 1st level Fighter with all physical ability scores at 3, and they'd pretty much be treated as if they were all at 10.

If you took the same "Str 3 Dex 3 Con 3" Fighter at 20th level, he would effectively have "Str 22 Dex 22 Con 22."

Because let's establish a baseline, people.

[Vaz]

Just state that they ignore allFeat Prerequisites for the purposes of their Combat Style Feats. That has the exact same effect.

[Lord_Gareth]

I got all excited about this when I saw that Djinn was here, and then I read the thread. Now I am sad.

I'm not claiming anything, but I will make this suggestion; I'd look into the Wall of Blades maneuver and propose something similar as a class feature or the like. Parrying should be something Fighters do.

[Razanir]

I think I'm free to claim...

My idea: Fighters are overshadowed by quadratic wizards, with their fancy-dancy magic. Let's let fighters use magic as a weapon by giving them UMD.


The Fighter
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Perfect War-Skill
1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Combat Styles (3), Perfect War-Skill|+0
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|Combat Style Feat|+0
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Physical prowess, Artifice|+1
4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1|Bonus Feat, The Bigger They Are... (1)|+1
5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (4)|+1
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+2|Combat Style Feat|+2
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+2|Physical prowess, Swift Combat Style|+2
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+2|Bonus Feat, Rapid Repositioning (half), The Bigger They Are... (2)|+2
9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+3|Physical prowess|+3
10th|
+10/+5/|
+7|
+3|
+3|Combat Style Feat, Bonus Combat Style (5)|+3
11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+3|Physical prowess|+3
12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+4|Bonus Feat, ...The Harder They Fall|+4
13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+4|Physical prowess|+4
14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+4|Combat Style Feat|+4
15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+5|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (6)|+5
16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+5|Bonus Feat, Rapid Repositioning (full)|+5
17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+5|Physical prowess, Immediate Combat Style|+5
18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+6|Combat Style Feat|+6
19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+6|Physical prowess|+6
20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+6|Bonus Feat, Bonus Combat Style (7)|+6[/table]

Hit Die: d10
Skill Points: 6 + Int modifier, x4 at 1st level. Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: history, Knowledge: nobility, Knowledge: local, Listen, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and UMD

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter gains three Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a single Fighter feat that the Fighter meets the prerequisites for. At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style.

At level 2, and every 4 levels thereafter (6, 10, 14, 18) the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Perfect War-Skill (Ex): A Fighter ignores any prerequisites for feats that don't involve BAB, skill ranks, or class features, but only when selecting feats for their Combat Styles.

For all purposes, a Fighter may use either their Perfect War-Skill bonus or their physical ability score modifiers, whichever would be higher. For example, a 12th level Fighter with a Dexterity of 8 would have a +4 bonus to their AC from Dexterity, would get +4 to their Reflex saves, and would get 4 additional attacks of opportunity if they took Combat Reflexes.

In addition, a Fighter of at least 3rd level adds the bonus listed in the Perfect War-Skill column to their BAB for the purpose of prerequisites; finally, if a feat gives a static numerical bonus, use the feat's bonus or the bonus from Perfect War-Skill, whichever is higher.

Physical Prowess (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter gets a bonus to some aspect of his ability checks that makes him a better warrior. The fighter gains an additional bonus at 5th level and every two fighter levels thereafter (7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). The bonus must be drawn from the following list.


Applied Force (Ex): A fighter can administer force to the weakest points of inanimate objects effectively, giving the character a +1 bonus on Strength checks to break or burst items (see page 165 of the Player's Handbook).

Combat Bearing (Ex): A fighter can steady himself to fight in precarious situations, giving the character a +1 bonus on Dexterity checks to avoid falling when damaged while balancing or moving quickly across difficult surfaces (see Balance on page 67 of the Player's Handbook).

Stamina Reserve (Ex): A fighter can push his body more than normal, giving the character a +1 bonus on Constitution checks to continue running (see page 144 of the Player's Handbook) and to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march (see page 164 of the Player's Handbook).


Artifice(Su): At third level, a fighter has learned something about magical weapons. He may chose to have the highest bonus granting weapon in his possession(carried somewhere on his person) apply all relevant magical bonuses to any weapon he wields.

The Bigger They Are... (Ex): A true warrior knows that size is not the same thing as strength. Beginning at 4th level, when attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, a fighter gains a +4 bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and the like, effectively cancelling out one size category's worth of difference.

At 8th level, this bonus improves to +8 against foes who are two size categories or more larger than him, effectively cancelling out two size categories worth of difference. Against foes one size larger than him, this bonus is still only +4. For example, a human fighter would have a +4 bonus to grapple checks against and ogre (large size), but a +8 bonus against a cloud giant (huge size).

Rapid Repositioning (Ex): A fighter is adept at reading the flow of battle and moving quickly so as to be in the right place at the right moment.

From 8th level onwards, a fighter may move up to half her speed as an immediate action. At 16th level, this class feature improves to allow the fighter to move up to her full speed as an immediate action.

If this class feature is used to interrupt another character's action, the movement granted becomes subject to an 'en passant' rule: the fighter is treated as occupying her original space, her destination space, and every space she passes through on her movement. If she interrupted an attack that passed through one of these spaces, she grants cover to the target of that attack.

Note that a creature may be hit by attacks against which it conferred cover on another creature, even though it was not the original target.

...The Harder They Fall (Ex): By 12th level, a fighter is a master at redirecting a foe's force. When attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, he gains a bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and so on equal to his opponent's size bonus.

This ability effectively replaces The Bigger They Are...

[Rogue Shadows]

Right, this time I'm not here to moan about combat styles!

However, I am here to moan about something else: At some point someone seems to have increased the Fighter from 2 + Int to 6 + Int skills, and added on a bunch of extra skills. That's supposed to take an entire turn, and you're only supposed to be adding 2 + Int skills and 5 class skills at a time.

(I'm not opposed to the idea, it just kind of goes against the rules to do it all in one go alongside other changes. Increasing skill points and class skills is a significant enough change to the class that it should consume a turn, nevermind doing it twice).

Oh, one other nitpick: Physical Prowess was supposed to be gained starting at 1st level now, but when bonus feats were replaced with combat styles the 1st-level Physical Prowess was accidentally deleted from the table, and changed back to being gained starting at 3rd level.

[bobthe6th]

That was Edan, but it was when no one had claimed. This past change was to add one skill, so it could just be assumed to be part of Elimu Marimech's turn.

hour till I can claim again... holding my breath :smalltongue:.

[Dienekes]

Ok then, CLAIM, take my turn to get the skill list where it already is.

And adding onto Lord_Gareth's statement, I personally believe we should find a way to mechanically do all the cool stuff combat is supposed to do, but always seems to get passed over because parrying is implied when taking a defensive action or whatever nonsense.

I'd like to see cool mechanics to: Parry, Riposte, Dive for Cover, Hamstring, Find Openings, Press Advantage, and whatever else we've seen in real life or fiction that the normal rules don't present in an interesting way.

Also, and this is secondary, a way to make combat feel more like combat and not repeatedly doing the same trick over and over (or in other words, an easy way to make yourself dead in normal combat). ToB forced people to play like real swordsman with their refresh mechanic, but I get a feeling that won't fly here.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Hmm... not sure what the procedure is for this, but... I don't really like the magic-based abilities (Artifice, though it is a clever solution to a real problem, and UMD). UMD feels like the wrong flavor to me-- though the rest of you might well disagree, in which case, well, pretty minor issue, but...

Bobthe6th, others, how would you feel about tweaking Artifice slightly? Instead of copying the enchantment of your most powerful weapon, how about if it gave you a scaling competence bonus to attack and damage with unenchanted weapons? Or let you use the higher of the two?

[Yitzi]

Also, and this is secondary, a way to make combat feel more like combat and not repeatedly doing the same trick over and over (or in other words, an easy way to make yourself dead in normal combat). ToB forced people to play like real swordsman with their refresh mechanic, but I get a feeling that won't fly here.

I actually came up with an interesting mechanic to achieve that (well, you actually can get away with doing the same trick over and over, but only if the other guy isn't familiar with it or it's a "trick" like the barbarian's rage), but I don't think this is supposed to be the place for new mechanics. (Although it was designed to work with my "combat styles" idea, which someone seems to have borrowed for this thread...)

Also, I think I'll claim, and give the fighter a few defensive anti-caster abilities, because it would be a shame for the fixed fighter to be vulnerable to a simple Dominate Person:


The Fighter
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Perfect War-Skill
1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0/+2|Combat Styles (3), Perfect War-Skill, Determination|+0
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0/+3|Combat Style Feat|+0
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1/+3|Physical prowess, Artifice|+1
4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1/+4|Bonus Feat, The Bigger They Are... (1)|+1
5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1/+4|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (4), Improved Determination|+1
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+2/+5|Combat Style Feat|+2
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+2/+5|Physical prowess, Swift Combat Style|+2
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+2/+6|Bonus Feat, Rapid Repositioning (half), The Bigger They Are... (2)|+2
9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+3/+6|Physical prowess|+3
10th|
+10/+5/|
+7|
+3|
+3/+7|Combat Style Feat, Bonus Combat Style (5)|+3
11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+3/+7|Physical prowess|+3
12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+4/+8|Bonus Feat, ...The Harder They Fall|+4
13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+4/+8|Physical prowess|+4
14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+4/+9|Combat Style Feat|+4
15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+5/+9|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (6)|+5
16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+5/+10|Bonus Feat, Rapid Repositioning (full)|+5
17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+5/+10|Physical prowess, Immediate Combat Style|+5
18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+6/+11|Combat Style Feat|+6
19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+6/+11|Physical prowess|+6
20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+6/+12|Bonus Feat, Bonus Combat Style (7)|+6[/table]

Hit Die: d10
Skill Points: 6 + Int modifier, x4 at 1st level. Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: history, Knowledge: nobility, Knowledge: local, Listen, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and UMD

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter gains three Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a single Fighter feat that the Fighter meets the prerequisites for. At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style.

At level 2, and every 4 levels thereafter (6, 10, 14, 18) the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Perfect War-Skill (Ex): A Fighter ignores any prerequisites for feats that don't involve BAB, skill ranks, or class features, but only when selecting feats for their Combat Styles.

For all purposes, a Fighter may use either their Perfect War-Skill bonus or their physical ability score modifiers, whichever would be higher. For example, a 12th level Fighter with a Dexterity of 8 would have a +4 bonus to their AC from Dexterity, would get +4 to their Reflex saves, and would get 4 additional attacks of opportunity if they took Combat Reflexes.

In addition, a Fighter of at least 3rd level adds the bonus listed in the Perfect War-Skill column to their BAB for the purpose of prerequisites; finally, if a feat gives a static numerical bonus, use the feat's bonus or the bonus from Perfect War-Skill, whichever is higher.

Determination (Ex): A fighter has two Will save progressions. Against effects that attempt to cloud his mind, such as the Illusion school and Charm subschool of magic, he uses the lower progression, but against attempts to affect him more directly, such as all other magic, he uses the higher progression. Furthermore, when he is entitled to use the higher progression he may use Charisma instead of Wisdom as his key ability score.

Physical Prowess (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter gets a bonus to some aspect of his ability checks that makes him a better warrior. The fighter gains an additional bonus at 5th level and every two fighter levels thereafter (7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). The bonus must be drawn from the following list.


Applied Force (Ex): A fighter can administer force to the weakest points of inanimate objects effectively, giving the character a +1 bonus on Strength checks to break or burst items (see page 165 of the Player's Handbook).

Combat Bearing (Ex): A fighter can steady himself to fight in precarious situations, giving the character a +1 bonus on Dexterity checks to avoid falling when damaged while balancing or moving quickly across difficult surfaces (see Balance on page 67 of the Player's Handbook).

Stamina Reserve (Ex): A fighter can push his body more than normal, giving the character a +1 bonus on Constitution checks to continue running (see page 144 of the Player's Handbook) and to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march (see page 164 of the Player's Handbook).


Artifice(Su): At third level, a fighter has learned something about magical weapons. He may chose to have the highest bonus granting weapon in his possession(carried somewhere on his person) apply all relevant magical bonuses to any weapon he wields.

The Bigger They Are... (Ex): A true warrior knows that size is not the same thing as strength. Beginning at 4th level, when attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, a fighter gains a +4 bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and the like, effectively cancelling out one size category's worth of difference.

At 8th level, this bonus improves to +8 against foes who are two size categories or more larger than him, effectively cancelling out two size categories worth of difference. Against foes one size larger than him, this bonus is still only +4. For example, a human fighter would have a +4 bonus to grapple checks against and ogre (large size), but a +8 bonus against a cloud giant (huge size).

Improved Determination (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, a fighter gains a bonus equal to half his class level to all Fortitude and Will saves to resist effects that would restrict his actions, including (but not limited to) death effects, petrification and polymorph effects, compulsion effects, and anything that would be blocked by the Freedom of Movement spell.

Rapid Repositioning (Ex): A fighter is adept at reading the flow of battle and moving quickly so as to be in the right place at the right moment.

From 8th level onwards, a fighter may move up to half her speed as an immediate action. At 16th level, this class feature improves to allow the fighter to move up to her full speed as an immediate action.

If this class feature is used to interrupt another character's action, the movement granted becomes subject to an 'en passant' rule: the fighter is treated as occupying her original space, her destination space, and every space she passes through on her movement. If she interrupted an attack that passed through one of these spaces, she grants cover to the target of that attack.

Note that a creature may be hit by attacks against which it conferred cover on another creature, even though it was not the original target.

...The Harder They Fall (Ex): By 12th level, a fighter is a master at redirecting a foe's force. When attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, he gains a bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and so on equal to his opponent's size bonus.

This ability effectively replaces The Bigger They Are...

[bobthe6th]

Bobthe6th, others, how would you feel about tweaking Artifice slightly? Instead of copying the enchantment of your most powerful weapon, how about if it gave you a scaling competence bonus to attack and damage with unenchanted weapons? Or let you use the higher of the two?

well, problem is that it won't bypass DR(either DR/magic or latter epic). second are the cool abilities that are non numeric... like flaming and keen. Also, this way allows for variance in loot drops. A level three fighter can find a +2 keen short sword after all.

Also greater magic weapon, keen edge, and all that...

Personally, I would like to remake the system without assuming magic items at a certain level... but that would entail remaking all the monsters ever and a few classes... so filed under "to much work."

[bobthe6th]

Claiming

So, the fighter is a master of combat right? Knowing just when to strike... See I have an idea for this.


The Fighter
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Perfect War-Skill
1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0/+2|Combat Styles (3), Perfect War-Skill, Determination|+0
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0/+3|Combat Style Feat|+0
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1/+3|Physical prowess, Artifice|+1
4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1/+4|Bonus Feat, The Bigger They Are... (1)|+1
5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1/+4|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (4), Improved Determination|+1
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+2/+5|Combat Style Feat|+2
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+2/+5|Physical prowess, Swift Combat Style|+2
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+2/+6|Bonus Feat, Rapid Repositioning (half), The Bigger They Are... (2)|+2
9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+3/+6|Physical prowess, Timing|+3
10th|
+10/+5/|
+7|
+3|
+3/+7|Combat Style Feat, Bonus Combat Style (5)|+3
11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+3/+7|Physical prowess|+3
12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+4/+8|Bonus Feat, ...The Harder They Fall|+4
13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+4/+8|Physical prowess|+4
14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+4/+9|Combat Style Feat|+4
15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+5/+9|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (6)|+5
16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+5/+10|Bonus Feat, Rapid Repositioning (full)|+5
17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+5/+10|Physical prowess, Immediate Combat Style|+5
18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+6/+11|Combat Style Feat|+6
19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+6/+11|Physical prowess|+6
20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+6/+12|Bonus Feat, Bonus Combat Style (7)|+6[/table]

Hit Die: d10
Skill Points: 6 + Int modifier, x4 at 1st level. Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: history, Knowledge: nobility, Knowledge: local, Listen, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and UMD

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter gains three Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a single Fighter feat that the Fighter meets the prerequisites for. At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style.

At level 2, and every 4 levels thereafter (6, 10, 14, 18) the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Perfect War-Skill (Ex): A Fighter ignores any prerequisites for feats that don't involve BAB, skill ranks, or class features, but only when selecting feats for their Combat Styles.

For all purposes, a Fighter may use either their Perfect War-Skill bonus or their physical ability score modifiers, whichever would be higher. For example, a 12th level Fighter with a Dexterity of 8 would have a +4 bonus to their AC from Dexterity, would get +4 to their Reflex saves, and would get 4 additional attacks of opportunity if they took Combat Reflexes.

In addition, a Fighter of at least 3rd level adds the bonus listed in the Perfect War-Skill column to their BAB for the purpose of prerequisites; finally, if a feat gives a static numerical bonus, use the feat's bonus or the bonus from Perfect War-Skill, whichever is higher.

Determination (Ex): A fighter has two Will save progressions. Against effects that attempt to cloud his mind, such as the Illusion school and Charm subschool of magic, he uses the lower progression, but against attempts to affect him more directly, such as all other magic, he uses the higher progression. Furthermore, when he is entitled to use the higher progression he may use Charisma instead of Wisdom as his key ability score.

Physical Prowess (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter gets a bonus to some aspect of his ability checks that makes him a better warrior. The fighter gains an additional bonus at 5th level and every two fighter levels thereafter (7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). The bonus must be drawn from the following list.


Applied Force (Ex): A fighter can administer force to the weakest points of inanimate objects effectively, giving the character a +1 bonus on Strength checks to break or burst items (see page 165 of the Player's Handbook).

Combat Bearing (Ex): A fighter can steady himself to fight in precarious situations, giving the character a +1 bonus on Dexterity checks to avoid falling when damaged while balancing or moving quickly across difficult surfaces (see Balance on page 67 of the Player's Handbook).

Stamina Reserve (Ex): A fighter can push his body more than normal, giving the character a +1 bonus on Constitution checks to continue running (see page 144 of the Player's Handbook) and to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march (see page 164 of the Player's Handbook).


Artifice(Su): At third level, a fighter has learned something about magical weapons. He may chose to have the highest bonus granting weapon in his possession(carried somewhere on his person) apply all relevant magical bonuses to any weapon he wields.

The Bigger They Are... (Ex): A true warrior knows that size is not the same thing as strength. Beginning at 4th level, when attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, a fighter gains a +4 bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and the like, effectively cancelling out one size category's worth of difference.

At 8th level, this bonus improves to +8 against foes who are two size categories or more larger than him, effectively cancelling out two size categories worth of difference. Against foes one size larger than him, this bonus is still only +4. For example, a human fighter would have a +4 bonus to grapple checks against and ogre (large size), but a +8 bonus against a cloud giant (huge size).

Improved Determination (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, a fighter gains a bonus equal to half his class level to all Fortitude and Will saves to resist effects that would restrict his actions, including (but not limited to) death effects, petrification and polymorph effects, compulsion effects, and anything that would be blocked by the Freedom of Movement spell.

Rapid Repositioning (Ex): A fighter is adept at reading the flow of battle and moving quickly so as to be in the right place at the right moment.

From 8th level onwards, a fighter may move up to half her speed as an immediate action. At 16th level, this class feature improves to allow the fighter to move up to her full speed as an immediate action.

If this class feature is used to interrupt another character's action, the movement granted becomes subject to an 'en passant' rule: the fighter is treated as occupying her original space, her destination space, and every space she passes through on her movement. If she interrupted an attack that passed through one of these spaces, she grants cover to the target of that attack.

Note that a creature may be hit by attacks against which it conferred cover on another creature, even though it was not the original target.

Timing(Ex):At 9th level, a fighter knows just when to strike with his weapon. At any point during their turn, they can chose not to make an attack they would normally make. So in a full attack action, they can chose to not take one of the attacks. If they do so, they can make a number of attacks equal to the number they chose not to make as free actions at any time until their next turn.

...The Harder They Fall (Ex): By 12th level, a fighter is a master at redirecting a foe's force. When attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, he gains a bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and so on equal to his opponent's size bonus.

This ability effectively replaces The Bigger They Are...

[TuggyNE]

Improved Determination (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, a fighter gains a bonus equal to half his class level to all Fortitude and Will saves to resist effects that would restrict his actions, including (but not limited to) death effects, petrification and polymorph effects, compulsion effects, and anything that would be blocked by the Freedom of Movement spell.

Iron Heart Surge: Electric Boogaloo? (Needs more clarity or you just know someone is going to interpret it too loosely.)

[Arcanist]

Iron Heart Surge: Electric Boogaloo? (Needs more clarity or you just know someone is going to interpret it too loosely.)

I'm just shocked that nobody has suggested they add Maneuvers to the Fighter :smalltongue: as it looks right now? It looks like a bunch of monkey's sat around a type writer and someone walked by, spell/grammar checked as appropriate :smalltongue:

[Yitzi]

(Needs more clarity or you just know someone is going to interpret it too loosely.)

How would it be interpreted loosely? In order to be used:
1. The effect must allow a Fort or Will save.
2. It must restrict his actions, i.e. not just do damage or apply a numerical penalty or make him not know what's going on.

[Rogue Shadows]

I'm just shocked that nobody has suggested they add Maneuvers to the Fighter :smalltongue: as it looks right now? It looks like a bunch of monkey's sat around a type writer and someone walked by, spell/grammar checked as appropriate :smalltongue:

Maneuvers were specifically disallowed, along with adding spells or fighting styles or such.

Basically because not everyone likes maneuvers (Hi!), so I wanted to prevent wars of add maneuvers/remove maneuvers/add maneuvers/remove maneuvers.

[Morph Bark]

While I can see the point of disallowing ToB material (besides feats, of course), why are fighting styles disallowed?

[ngilop]

I have to 2nd morph bark here in the whole 'what are you bannning fighting styles?'

I can understand the no ToB stuff, as then you just making warblade light. (like how that fax celstis person does it)

but fighting styles.. that kind of just absrud that you do not allow those as you cna take a page from any hsitory book about fighting and see that fighting styles were very much so in existance.

that was actually going to be my addition to this community fixed (with just spears becasue i had a stupidly cool idea) but, oh well.

[bobthe6th]

While I can see the point of disallowing ToB material (besides feats, of course), why are fighting styles disallowed?

well... a) feats are supposed to model fighting styles, so the bonus feats should let them learn a "fighting" style. b) making a fighter specific fighting style seems to exclude other "warior" classes from learning said fighting style...

D&D fighting styles are things like lock down tripper or two handed charger. You just need the right feats...

also, on that note, Claim
edit: So, I notice the fighter is a bit front loaded. really, two feats in as manny levels is bad. now we have 6. yeah... how about we limit selection for level one. I also dislike the non combat style feat levels... so I am removing them.


The Fighter
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Perfect War-Skill
1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0/+2|Combat Styles (3), Perfect War-Skill, Determination|+0
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0/+3|Combat Style Feat|+0
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1/+3|Physical prowess, Artifice|+1
4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1/+4|Combat Style Feat, The Bigger They Are... (1)|+1
5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1/+4|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (4), Improved Determination|+1
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+2/+5|Combat Style Feat|+2
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+2/+5|Physical prowess, Swift Combat Style|+2
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+2/+6|Combat Style Feat, Rapid Repositioning (half), The Bigger They Are... (2)|+2
9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+3/+6|Physical prowess, Timing|+3
10th|
+10/+5/|
+7|
+3|
+3/+7|Combat Style Feat, Bonus Combat Style (5)|+3
11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+3/+7|Physical prowess|+3
12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+4/+8|Combat Style Feat, ...The Harder They Fall|+4
13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+4/+8|Physical prowess|+4
14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+4/+9|Combat Style Feat|+4
15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+5/+9|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (6)|+5
16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+5/+10|Combat Style Feat, Rapid Repositioning (full)|+5
17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+5/+10|Physical prowess, Immediate Combat Style|+5
18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+6/+11|Combat Style Feat|+6
19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+6/+11|Physical prowess|+6
20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+6/+12|Combat Style Feat, Bonus Combat Style (7)|+6[/table]

Hit Die: d10
Skill Points: 6 + Int modifier, x4 at 1st level. Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: history, Knowledge: nobility, Knowledge: local, Listen, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and UMD

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter gains three Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a one of the following.
weapon focus, exotic weapon proficiency, improved unarmed strike, rapid reload, or quick draw.

At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style.

At level 2, and every 2 levels thereafter (4, 6, 8, ect.) the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Perfect War-Skill (Ex): A Fighter ignores any prerequisites for feats that don't involve BAB, skill ranks, or class features, but only when selecting feats for their Combat Styles.

For all purposes, a Fighter may use either their Perfect War-Skill bonus or their physical ability score modifiers, whichever would be higher. For example, a 12th level Fighter with a Dexterity of 8 would have a +4 bonus to their AC from Dexterity, would get +4 to their Reflex saves, and would get 4 additional attacks of opportunity if they took Combat Reflexes.

In addition, a Fighter of at least 3rd level adds the bonus listed in the Perfect War-Skill column to their BAB for the purpose of prerequisites; finally, if a feat gives a static numerical bonus, use the feat's bonus or the bonus from Perfect War-Skill, whichever is higher.

Determination (Ex): A fighter has two Will save progressions. Against effects that attempt to cloud his mind, such as the Illusion school and Charm subschool of magic, he uses the lower progression, but against attempts to affect him more directly, such as all other magic, he uses the higher progression. Furthermore, when he is entitled to use the higher progression he may use Charisma instead of Wisdom as his key ability score.

Physical Prowess (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter gets a bonus to some aspect of his ability checks that makes him a better warrior. The fighter gains an additional bonus at 5th level and every two fighter levels thereafter (7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). The bonus must be drawn from the following list.


Applied Force (Ex): A fighter can administer force to the weakest points of inanimate objects effectively, giving the character a +1 bonus on Strength checks to break or burst items (see page 165 of the Player's Handbook).

Combat Bearing (Ex): A fighter can steady himself to fight in precarious situations, giving the character a +1 bonus on Dexterity checks to avoid falling when damaged while balancing or moving quickly across difficult surfaces (see Balance on page 67 of the Player's Handbook).

Stamina Reserve (Ex): A fighter can push his body more than normal, giving the character a +1 bonus on Constitution checks to continue running (see page 144 of the Player's Handbook) and to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march (see page 164 of the Player's Handbook).


Artifice(Su): At third level, a fighter has learned something about magical weapons. He may chose to have the highest bonus granting weapon in his possession(carried somewhere on his person) apply all relevant magical bonuses to any weapon he wields.

The Bigger They Are... (Ex): A true warrior knows that size is not the same thing as strength. Beginning at 4th level, when attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, a fighter gains a +4 bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and the like, effectively cancelling out one size category's worth of difference.

At 8th level, this bonus improves to +8 against foes who are two size categories or more larger than him, effectively cancelling out two size categories worth of difference. Against foes one size larger than him, this bonus is still only +4. For example, a human fighter would have a +4 bonus to grapple checks against and ogre (large size), but a +8 bonus against a cloud giant (huge size).

Improved Determination (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, a fighter gains a bonus equal to half his class level to all Fortitude and Will saves to resist effects that would restrict his actions, including (but not limited to) death effects, petrification and polymorph effects, compulsion effects, and anything that would be blocked by the Freedom of Movement spell.

Rapid Repositioning (Ex): A fighter is adept at reading the flow of battle and moving quickly so as to be in the right place at the right moment.

From 8th level onwards, a fighter may move up to half her speed as an immediate action. At 16th level, this class feature improves to allow the fighter to move up to her full speed as an immediate action.

If this class feature is used to interrupt another character's action, the movement granted becomes subject to an 'en passant' rule: the fighter is treated as occupying her original space, her destination space, and every space she passes through on her movement. If she interrupted an attack that passed through one of these spaces, she grants cover to the target of that attack.

Note that a creature may be hit by attacks against which it conferred cover on another creature, even though it was not the original target.

Timing(Ex):At 9th level, a fighter knows just when to strike with his weapon. At any point during their turn, they can chose not to make an attack they would normally make. So in a full attack action, they can chose to not take one of the attacks. If they do so, they can make a number of attacks equal to the number they chose not to make as free actions at any time until their next turn.

...The Harder They Fall (Ex): By 12th level, a fighter is a master at redirecting a foe's force. When attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, he gains a bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and so on equal to his opponent's size bonus.

This ability effectively replaces The Bigger They Are...

[Rogue Shadows]

well... a) feats are supposed to model fighting styles, so the bonus feats should let them learn a "fighting" style. b) making a fighter specific fighting style seems to exclude other "warior" classes from learning said fighting style...

Basically this. Say we make something like a "fencing" fighting style. It'd be really weird that this style exists, and the Swashbuckler can't take it. And, it kind of already exists with the Weapon Finesse feat.

Also with the whole "combat style lol let's give the fighter more feats 'cause that's all it's ever really needed*," we've basically ignored that anyway...

--------------------
*Yes, I'm bitter.

[Seerow]

Basically this. Say we make something like a "fencing" fighting style. It'd be really weird that this style exists, and the Swashbuckler can't take it. And, it kind of already exists with the Weapon Finesse feat.

Also with the whole "combat style lol let's give the fighter more feats 'cause that's all it's ever really needed*," we've basically ignored that anyway...

--------------------
*Yes, I'm bitter.

I haven't seen anyone say "more feats is all the fighter ever really needed" just that giving him more feats that are mutually exclusive with each other gives the fighter access to a greater degree of versatility without running into the very problems you're complaining about (fighters getting access to new styles of fencing or whatever that other classes it would fit for can't access). Though to a lesser degree your attitude is very indicative of a "fighters can't have nice things" mentality, because of the core idea that anything the fighter has should similarly be available to others (Which is really ironic given the intent of this thread. Though I blame this mentality more on the design of the Fighter across the editions as a very bland blank slate that could be turned into literally any type of martial character. The lack of a niche means that anything you try to give him the argument could be made that it fits better on someone else. It's a very common issue and it's hard to deal with, keeping the fighter as available for all those blank slate builds and still unique at the same time)

As an aside, I find it hard to track the flow of this thread. bobthe6th made a Claim, but there's a spoiler with the class in his post, does that mean he's already edited in his change and there's an open claim now?

[Amechra]

Yep, the claim is currently open.

I have another idea, but I'm not sure whether or not I'd like to add it to this particular fix; the idea is letting you "toggle", for lack of a better word, whether or not a feat applies to ranged or melee attacks (so you could use Deflect Arrows to deflect a sword blow, or use Manyshot to let you "hit" multiple times in a standard action. Even if it was just a "you can take a melee version of ranged feats, and vice-versa", it would allow you to get stuff like a parry ability without making it a class feature, allowing someone to be able to play a fighter who can't parry.)

[Rogue Shadows]

Though to a lesser degree your attitude is very indicative of a "fighters can't have nice things" mentality, because of the core idea that anything the fighter has should similarly be available to others

Or the Swashbuckler class could just be modified to be allowed to take the "Fencing" style, should it be made. Like I said, it's weird if it isn't. But that's why they were disallowed alongside spells and maneuvers.

"Wanting the fighter to be its own thing" and "not wanting the Fighter to have nice things" are not the same thing.

Also I don't think I've ever complained about wanting the fighter to be able to have a multitude of options or fit into a variety of roles. For my own part I actually have a comparatively narrow view of what a Fighter should be, and that's pretty much defined by Conan and Krull as examples. I imagine the classic dungeon-delver, the sword & board fighter. Though I also recognize that this fighter needs to be able to do extraordinary things from level 6 on, as by that point he's surpassed the capabilities of any human who has ever historically lived on Earth.

High-level fighters should be able to sunder walls at least as easily as a wizard of comparable level can disintegrate them. I wouldn't mind a class feature that lets them ignore the hardness of objects...


As an aside, I find it hard to track the flow of this thread. bobthe6th made a Claim, but there's a spoiler with the class in his post, does that mean he's already edited in his change and there's an open claim now?

The actual turns were supposed to be in separate posts...

[bobthe6th]

but I tend to post my addition within 5 min, and I don't like to double post. I would say that it should always be edited into the original post, as that keeps the number of posts in this thread down.

[Seerow]

Might I suggest adding a bold Done when you post an update, so we can see the claim is released?

Edit: I kind of wanted to edit physical prowess, but that dual will save progression was really bothering me. So instead I removed it, leaving just the good progression.


Anyway, Claiming


The Fighter
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Perfect War-Skill
1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2|Combat Styles (3), Perfect War-Skill, Determination|+0
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+3|Combat Style Feat|+0
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3|Physical prowess, Artifice|+1
4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+4|Combat Style Feat, The Bigger They Are... (1)|+1
5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+4|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (4), Improved Determination|+1
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+5|Combat Style Feat|+2
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+5|Physical prowess, Swift Combat Style|+2
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+6|Combat Style Feat, Rapid Repositioning (half), The Bigger They Are... (2)|+2
9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+6|Physical prowess, Timing|+3
10th|
+10/+5/|
+7|
+3|
+7|Combat Style Feat, Bonus Combat Style (5)|+3
11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+7|Physical prowess|+3
12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+8|Combat Style Feat, ...The Harder They Fall|+4
13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+8|Physical prowess|+4
14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+9|Combat Style Feat|+4
15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+9|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (6)|+5
16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+10|Combat Style Feat, Rapid Repositioning (full)|+5
17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10|Physical prowess, Immediate Combat Style|+5
18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+11|Combat Style Feat|+6
19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+11|Physical prowess|+6
20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+12|Combat Style Feat, Bonus Combat Style (7)|+6[/table]

Hit Die: d10
Skill Points: 6 + Int modifier, x4 at 1st level. Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: history, Knowledge: nobility, Knowledge: local, Listen, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and UMD

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter gains three Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a one of the following.
weapon focus, exotic weapon proficiency, improved unarmed strike, rapid reload, or quick draw.

At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style.

At level 2, and every 2 levels thereafter (4, 6, 8, ect.) the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Perfect War-Skill (Ex): A Fighter ignores any prerequisites for feats that don't involve BAB, skill ranks, or class features, but only when selecting feats for their Combat Styles.

For all purposes, a Fighter may use either their Perfect War-Skill bonus or their physical ability score modifiers, whichever would be higher. For example, a 12th level Fighter with a Dexterity of 8 would have a +4 bonus to their AC from Dexterity, would get +4 to their Reflex saves, and would get 4 additional attacks of opportunity if they took Combat Reflexes.

In addition, a Fighter of at least 3rd level adds the bonus listed in the Perfect War-Skill column to their BAB for the purpose of prerequisites; finally, if a feat gives a static numerical bonus, use the feat's bonus or the bonus from Perfect War-Skill, whichever is higher.

Physical Prowess (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter gets a bonus to some aspect of his ability checks that makes him a better warrior. The fighter gains an additional bonus at 5th level and every two fighter levels thereafter (7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). The bonus must be drawn from the following list.


Applied Force (Ex): A fighter can administer force to the weakest points of inanimate objects effectively, giving the character a +1 bonus on Strength checks to break or burst items (see page 165 of the Player's Handbook).

Combat Bearing (Ex): A fighter can steady himself to fight in precarious situations, giving the character a +1 bonus on Dexterity checks to avoid falling when damaged while balancing or moving quickly across difficult surfaces (see Balance on page 67 of the Player's Handbook).

Stamina Reserve (Ex): A fighter can push his body more than normal, giving the character a +1 bonus on Constitution checks to continue running (see page 144 of the Player's Handbook) and to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march (see page 164 of the Player's Handbook).


Artifice(Su): At third level, a fighter has learned something about magical weapons. He may chose to have the highest bonus granting weapon in his possession(carried somewhere on his person) apply all relevant magical bonuses to any weapon he wields.

The Bigger They Are... (Ex): A true warrior knows that size is not the same thing as strength. Beginning at 4th level, when attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, a fighter gains a +4 bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and the like, effectively cancelling out one size category's worth of difference.

At 8th level, this bonus improves to +8 against foes who are two size categories or more larger than him, effectively cancelling out two size categories worth of difference. Against foes one size larger than him, this bonus is still only +4. For example, a human fighter would have a +4 bonus to grapple checks against and ogre (large size), but a +8 bonus against a cloud giant (huge size).

Improved Determination (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, a fighter gains a bonus equal to half his class level to all Fortitude and Will saves to resist effects that would restrict his actions, including (but not limited to) death effects, petrification and polymorph effects, compulsion effects, and anything that would be blocked by the Freedom of Movement spell.

Rapid Repositioning (Ex): A fighter is adept at reading the flow of battle and moving quickly so as to be in the right place at the right moment.

From 8th level onwards, a fighter may move up to half her speed as an immediate action. At 16th level, this class feature improves to allow the fighter to move up to her full speed as an immediate action.

If this class feature is used to interrupt another character's action, the movement granted becomes subject to an 'en passant' rule: the fighter is treated as occupying her original space, her destination space, and every space she passes through on her movement. If she interrupted an attack that passed through one of these spaces, she grants cover to the target of that attack.

Note that a creature may be hit by attacks against which it conferred cover on another creature, even though it was not the original target.

Timing(Ex):At 9th level, a fighter knows just when to strike with his weapon. At any point during their turn, they can chose not to make an attack they would normally make. So in a full attack action, they can chose to not take one of the attacks. If they do so, they can make a number of attacks equal to the number they chose not to make as free actions at any time until their next turn.

...The Harder They Fall (Ex): By 12th level, a fighter is a master at redirecting a foe's force. When attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, he gains a bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and so on equal to his opponent's size bonus.

This ability effectively replaces The Bigger They Are...

Done

[lesser_minion]

I think I'll make a claim, since I have a new trick to add.


The Fighter
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Perfect War-Skill
1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2|Combat Styles (3), Perfect War-Skill, Determination|+0
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+3|Combat Style Feat|+0
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3|Physical prowess, Artifice|+1
4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+4|Combat Style Feat, The Bigger They Are... (1), Rapid Repositioning (half)|+1
5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+4|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (4), Improved Determination|+1
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+5|Combat Style Feat|+2
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+5|Physical prowess, Swift Combat Style|+2
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+6|Combat Style Feat, One Step Ahead, The Bigger They Are... (2)|+2
9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+6|Physical prowess, Timing|+3
10th|
+10/+5/|
+7|
+3|
+7|Combat Style Feat, Bonus Combat Style (5)|+3
11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+7|Physical prowess|+3
12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+8|Combat Style Feat, ...The Harder They Fall, Rapid Repositioning (full)|+4
13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+8|Physical prowess|+4
14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+9|Combat Style Feat|+4
15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+9|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (6)|+5
16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+10|Combat Style Feat|+5
17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10|Physical prowess, Immediate Combat Style|+5
18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+11|Combat Style Feat|+6
19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+11|Physical prowess|+6
20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+12|Combat Style Feat, Bonus Combat Style (7)|+6[/table]

Hit Die: d10
Skill Points: 6 + Int modifier, x4 at 1st level. Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: history, Knowledge: nobility, Knowledge: local, Listen, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and UMD

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter gains three Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a one of the following.
weapon focus, exotic weapon proficiency, improved unarmed strike, rapid reload, or quick draw.

At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style.

At level 2, and every 2 levels thereafter (4, 6, 8, ect.) the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Perfect War-Skill (Ex): A Fighter ignores any prerequisites for feats that don't involve BAB, skill ranks, or class features, but only when selecting feats for their Combat Styles.

For all purposes, a Fighter may use either their Perfect War-Skill bonus or their physical ability score modifiers, whichever would be higher. For example, a 12th level Fighter with a Dexterity of 8 would have a +4 bonus to their AC from Dexterity, would get +4 to their Reflex saves, and would get 4 additional attacks of opportunity if they took Combat Reflexes.

In addition, a Fighter of at least 3rd level adds the bonus listed in the Perfect War-Skill column to their BAB for the purpose of prerequisites; finally, if a feat gives a static numerical bonus, use the feat's bonus or the bonus from Perfect War-Skill, whichever is higher.

Physical Prowess (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter gets a bonus to some aspect of his ability checks that makes him a better warrior. The fighter gains an additional bonus at 5th level and every two fighter levels thereafter (7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). The bonus must be drawn from the following list.


Applied Force (Ex): A fighter can administer force to the weakest points of inanimate objects effectively, giving the character a +1 bonus on Strength checks to break or burst items (see page 165 of the Player's Handbook).

Combat Bearing (Ex): A fighter can steady himself to fight in precarious situations, giving the character a +1 bonus on Dexterity checks to avoid falling when damaged while balancing or moving quickly across difficult surfaces (see Balance on page 67 of the Player's Handbook).

Stamina Reserve (Ex): A fighter can push his body more than normal, giving the character a +1 bonus on Constitution checks to continue running (see page 144 of the Player's Handbook) and to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march (see page 164 of the Player's Handbook).


Artifice(Su): At third level, a fighter has learned something about magical weapons. He may chose to have the highest bonus granting weapon in his possession(carried somewhere on his person) apply all relevant magical bonuses to any weapon he wields.

The Bigger They Are... (Ex): A true warrior knows that size is not the same thing as strength. Beginning at 4th level, when attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, a fighter gains a +4 bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and the like, effectively cancelling out one size category's worth of difference.

At 8th level, this bonus improves to +8 against foes who are two size categories or more larger than him, effectively cancelling out two size categories worth of difference. Against foes one size larger than him, this bonus is still only +4. For example, a human fighter would have a +4 bonus to grapple checks against and ogre (large size), but a +8 bonus against a cloud giant (huge size).

Rapid Repositioning (Ex): Once on the battlefield, a fighter's mental conditioning pays off: she becomes adept at reading the flow of battle and ensuring that she acts at the right moment.

From 4th level onwards, a fighter may move up to half her speed as an immediate action. At 12th level, this class feature improves to allow the fighter to move up to her full speed as an immediate action.

If this class feature is used to interrupt another character's action, the movement granted becomes subject to an 'en passant' rule: the fighter is treated as occupying her original space, her destination space, and every space she passes through on her movement. If she interrupted an attack that passed through one of these spaces, she grants cover to the target of that attack.

Note that a creature may be hit by attacks against which it conferred cover on another creature, even if it was not the original target.

A fighter may not use Rapid Repositioning while fatigued or exhausted.

Improved Determination (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, a fighter gains a bonus equal to half his class level to all Fortitude and Will saves to resist effects that would restrict his actions, including (but not limited to) death effects, petrification and polymorph effects, compulsion effects, and anything that would be blocked by the Freedom of Movement spell.

One Step Ahead (Ex): At 8th level, the fighter's skill at understanding the flow of a battle pays off further. Sometimes, she finds herself so far ahead of her opponents that they simply cannot do a single thing she cannot anticipate and move to avoid.

Whenever the fighter moves (five foot steps do not qualify, but any other movement the fighter undertakes of her own volition does), she need not declare where until the start of her next turn. While the fighter's position is undeclared, she becomes immune to any effect that relies on perceiving her, or which depends on her position (note that she is not actually imperceptible), but may not herself take any action that depends on her position. This applies even if an effect covers every single space she could have moved to. If the fighter applies this class feature to the movement from Rapid Repositioning, she may ignore the 'en passant' principle.

This ability is difficult to sustain. At the end of any round in which it was used, there is a 50% chance that it becomes unavailable for five rounds.

A fighter may not use One Step Ahead while fatigued or exhausted.

Timing(Ex):At 9th level, a fighter knows just when to strike with his weapon. At any point during their turn, they can chose not to make an attack they would normally make. So in a full attack action, they can chose to not take one of the attacks. If they do so, they can make a number of attacks equal to the number they chose not to make as free actions at any time until their next turn.

...The Harder They Fall (Ex): By 12th level, a fighter is a master at redirecting a foe's force. When attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, he gains a bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and so on equal to his opponent's size bonus.

This ability effectively replaces The Bigger They Are...

This is an edit to the rapid repositioning progression -- I've shifted it down four levels, and added a new step (MC Schroedinghammer One Step Ahead) at 8th level.

This is a pretty powerful addition. I don't think it's broken, at least not on its own (and at least not after my emergency ninja-edits -- sorry!), and it comes in at a higher level than many of the effects that it competes with.

As for the question of whether or not it would fit better on a rogue, I don't really think so. While it does fit with the role of a rogue, what it represents is, IMHO, far more of a fighter thing.

Anyway, done.

[Rogue Shadows]

Claiming
Now, let's see, what does a Fighter really need...well, this particular Fighter doesn't gain anything new after 12th level. Let's see if we can give someone who's stuck it out to high-level Fighterdom something nice.

Well, I keep talking about how high-level fighters should be able to sunder walls...so, I present to you: Sunder Wall, which lets a fighter of 16th level ignore hardness and allows the fighter to deal bonus damage to unattended objects. Like, a lot of bonus damage.


The Fighter
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Perfect War-Skill
1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2|Combat Styles (3), Perfect War-Skill, Determination|+0
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+3|Combat Style Feat|+0
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3|Physical prowess, Artifice|+1
4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+4|Combat Style Feat, The Bigger They Are... (1), Rapid Repositioning (half)|+1
5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+4|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (4), Improved Determination|+1
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+5|Combat Style Feat|+2
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+5|Physical prowess, Swift Combat Style|+2
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+6|Combat Style Feat, One Step Ahead, The Bigger They Are... (2)|+2
9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+6|Physical prowess, Timing|+3
10th|
+10/+5/|
+7|
+3|
+7|Combat Style Feat, Bonus Combat Style (5)|+3
11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+7|Physical prowess|+3
12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+8|Combat Style Feat, ...The Harder They Fall, Rapid Repositioning (full)|+4
13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+8|Physical prowess|+4
14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+9|Combat Style Feat|+4
15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+9|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (6)|+5
16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+10|Combat Style Feat, Sunder Wall (full-round)|+5
17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10|Physical prowess, Immediate Combat Style|+5
18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+11|Combat Style Feat|+6
19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+11|Physical prowess|+6
20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+12|Combat Style Feat, Bonus Combat Style (7), Sunder Wall (standard)|+6[/table]

Hit Die: d10
Skill Points: 6 + Int modifier, x4 at 1st level. Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: history, Knowledge: nobility, Knowledge: local, Listen, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and UMD

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter gains three Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a one of the following.
weapon focus, exotic weapon proficiency, improved unarmed strike, rapid reload, or quick draw.

At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style.

At level 2, and every 2 levels thereafter (4, 6, 8, ect.) the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Perfect War-Skill (Ex): A Fighter ignores any prerequisites for feats that don't involve BAB, skill ranks, or class features, but only when selecting feats for their Combat Styles.

For all purposes, a Fighter may use either their Perfect War-Skill bonus or their physical ability score modifiers, whichever would be higher. For example, a 12th level Fighter with a Dexterity of 8 would have a +4 bonus to their AC from Dexterity, would get +4 to their Reflex saves, and would get 4 additional attacks of opportunity if they took Combat Reflexes.

In addition, a Fighter of at least 3rd level adds the bonus listed in the Perfect War-Skill column to their BAB for the purpose of prerequisites; finally, if a feat gives a static numerical bonus, use the feat's bonus or the bonus from Perfect War-Skill, whichever is higher.

Physical Prowess (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter gets a bonus to some aspect of his ability checks that makes him a better warrior. The fighter gains an additional bonus at 5th level and every two fighter levels thereafter (7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). The bonus must be drawn from the following list.


Applied Force (Ex): A fighter can administer force to the weakest points of inanimate objects effectively, giving the character a +1 bonus on Strength checks to break or burst items (see page 165 of the Player's Handbook).

Combat Bearing (Ex): A fighter can steady himself to fight in precarious situations, giving the character a +1 bonus on Dexterity checks to avoid falling when damaged while balancing or moving quickly across difficult surfaces (see Balance on page 67 of the Player's Handbook).

Stamina Reserve (Ex): A fighter can push his body more than normal, giving the character a +1 bonus on Constitution checks to continue running (see page 144 of the Player's Handbook) and to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march (see page 164 of the Player's Handbook).


Artifice(Su): At third level, a fighter has learned something about magical weapons. He may chose to have the highest bonus granting weapon in his possession(carried somewhere on his person) apply all relevant magical bonuses to any weapon he wields.

The Bigger They Are... (Ex): A true warrior knows that size is not the same thing as strength. Beginning at 4th level, when attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, a fighter gains a +4 bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and the like, effectively cancelling out one size category's worth of difference.

At 8th level, this bonus improves to +8 against foes who are two size categories or more larger than him, effectively cancelling out two size categories worth of difference. Against foes one size larger than him, this bonus is still only +4. For example, a human fighter would have a +4 bonus to grapple checks against and ogre (large size), but a +8 bonus against a cloud giant (huge size).

Rapid Repositioning (Ex): Once on the battlefield, a fighter's mental conditioning pays off: she becomes adept at reading the flow of battle and ensuring that she acts at the right moment.

From 4th level onwards, a fighter may move up to half her speed as an immediate action. At 12th level, this class feature improves to allow the fighter to move up to her full speed as an immediate action.

If this class feature is used to interrupt another character's action, the movement granted becomes subject to an 'en passant' rule: the fighter is treated as occupying her original space, her destination space, and every space she passes through on her movement. If she interrupted an attack that passed through one of these spaces, she grants cover to the target of that attack.

Note that a creature may be hit by attacks against which it conferred cover on another creature, even if it was not the original target.

A fighter may not use Rapid Repositioning while fatigued or exhausted.

Improved Determination (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, a fighter gains a bonus equal to half his class level to all Fortitude and Will saves to resist effects that would restrict his actions, including (but not limited to) death effects, petrification and polymorph effects, compulsion effects, and anything that would be blocked by the Freedom of Movement spell.

One Step Ahead (Ex): At 8th level, the fighter's skill at understanding the flow of a battle pays off further. Sometimes, she finds herself so far ahead of her opponents that they simply cannot do a single thing she cannot anticipate and move to avoid.

Whenever the fighter moves (five foot steps do not qualify, but any other movement the fighter undertakes of her own volition does), she need not declare where until the start of her next turn. While the fighter's position is undeclared, she becomes immune to any effect that relies on perceiving her, or which depends on her position (note that she is not actually imperceptible), but may not herself take any action that depends on her position. This applies even if an effect covers every single space she could have moved to. If the fighter applies this class feature to the movement from Rapid Repositioning, she may ignore the 'en passant' principle.

This ability is difficult to sustain. At the end of any round in which it was used, there is a 50% chance that it becomes unavailable for five rounds.

A fighter may not use One Step Ahead while fatigued or exhausted.

Timing(Ex):At 9th level, a fighter knows just when to strike with his weapon. At any point during their turn, they can chose not to make an attack they would normally make. So in a full attack action, they can chose to not take one of the attacks. If they do so, they can make a number of attacks equal to the number they chose not to make as free actions at any time until their next turn.

...The Harder They Fall (Ex): By 12th level, a fighter is a master at redirecting a foe's force. When attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, he gains a bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and so on equal to his opponent's size bonus.

This ability effectively replaces The Bigger They Are...

Sunder Wall (Ex): Beginning at 16th level, a fighter when attacking an object or creature may ignore up to his Fighter level of that object or creature's Hardness or Damage Reduction, treating it as though it were that much lower. So, for example, a 16th-level fighter attacking a creature with DR 20 treats the creature as though it had a DR of 4.

Fighters with the Sunder Wall ability can additionally deal tremendous amounts of damage to unattended objects or structures. As long as the fighter is attacking an object (such as an axe sitting by itself in the middle of a floor, or, for that matter, the floor itself) that is not held or attended by another creature, the fighter may as a full-round action make a single attack against that object. This attack deals maximum damage, ignores up to the Fighter's level of the object's hardness as outlined above, and further the damage is multiplied by the fighter's level. If the fighter is attacking a wall, floor, or ceiling, he destroys a 10-foot by 10-foot section of it. So, for example, if a 16th-level fighter with 22 Strength is attacking an iron wall (hardness 10, 90 hp per 10 foot by 10 foot section) with his +4 flaming burst greataxe, he would deal 448 damage to the wall ([6 (Str) + 16 (+4 greataxe) + 6 (flaming)] x 16 (level) = 448), destroying a 10-foot by 10-foot section of it.

At 20th level, the fighter may use the Sunder Wall ability to destroy unattended objects as a standard action rather than a full-round action.
Who needs disintegrate when you've got a fighter? (Okay, technically disintegrate is better, but still).

Done

[lesser_minion]

Given the fact that we've got barbarians for the hulking brute class, this strikes me as a little off-theme (and it might come in too late to be useful).

High-level fighter class features should be things more along the lines of "re-enact the calligraphy scene from Hero", IMHO.

[Seerow]

Given the fact that we've got barbarians for the hulking brute class, this strikes me as a little off-theme (and it might come in too late to be useful).

High-level fighter class features should be things more along the lines of "re-enact the calligraphy scene from Hero", IMHO.

Eh, Fighters do have the Dungeoncrasher thing going for them already. Sunder Wall doesn't seem too out of place given that.

[lesser_minion]

Eh, Fighters do have the Dungeoncrasher thing going for them already. Sunder Wall doesn't seem too out of place given that.

Dungeoncrasher exists, sure, but it's also optional. This isn't.

[Rogue Shadows]

Dungeoncrasher exists, sure, but it's also optional. This isn't.

Sure it is: just never use it. Besides, it's all in how you fluff it. This isn't the fighter hulking-brute his way through an object, it's a fighter exploiting the weaknesses of the object by making one carefully-placed strike.

Also if I wasn't going in with a mandate to add in something at high-level, I was going to add Dungeon Crasher anyway.

EDIT
The worry that it might be too late to be useful is a legitimate concern, though...originally, instead of ignoring an object's hardness, you ignored up to your Fighter level in hardness/DR, and that particular aspect could be used against anything (i.e., creatures). Since hardness doesn't usually exceed 10 for objects, anyway (notable exceptions: mithril (15) and adamantine (20), I could re-institute that without affecting the object-destruction part overmuch.

So, you can ignore up to your Fighter level in Hardness/DR for anything, but if that thing is an unattended object, you also get to do stupid damage to it.

Ignoring [level] DR for every attack doesn't sound too bad...

[lesser_minion]

How about replacing it with a low-level class feature that makes it impossible to partially mitigate the fighter's damage? He has a fair shot at tearing down a wall with a full greataxe power attack anyway, and the low-level class feature would be nice for a lot of builds.

I've got plenty of ideas for high-level abilities, I'm just waiting for my next turn so that I can add them in. And I'm sure Seerow's got something to add as well.

[Rogue Shadows]

How about replacing it with a low-level class feature that makes it impossible to partially mitigate the fighter's damage?

I've got plenty of ideas for high-level abilities, I'm just waiting for my next turn so that I can add them in. And I'm sure Seerow's got something to add as well.

I want him to be able to deal tremendous damage to walls, though...or axes, I guess, but mostly I want him to be able to sunder walls. Because that's what a 16th-level fighter should be able to do.

[lesser_minion]

I want him to be able to deal tremendous damage to walls, though...or axes, I guess, but mostly I want him to be able to sunder walls. Because that's what a 16th-level fighter should be able to do.

By 16th level I'm pretty sure he can already be built to meet the break DC for a lot of walls, if he wants to go that route. And again, a full power attack is going to wreck most things even without a special anti-wall class feature, especially if he ignores hardness anyway.

[Rogue Shadows]

By 16th level I'm pretty sure he can already be built to meet the break DC for a lot of walls, if he wants to go that route. And again, a full power attack is going to wreck most things even without a special anti-wall class feature, especially if he ignores hardness anyway.

True...but it's so much cooler to destroy a wall 'cause you manage to deal enough HP damage, rather than just hit a dumb ol' break DC. Besides, this way he doesn't have to be built to destroy walls, he just can.

Incidentally, I re-instituted the "ignore up to fighter level of DR" part of the class feature, so now it's no longer useful against just unattended objects. It can just also be useful against unattended objects.

EDIT
Incidentally, is the combat style list...incomplete? Shouldn't Power Attack be in there? Or Mounted Combat?

[lesser_minion]

Meh. I don't particularly like it (and I'm pretty sure there a billion other ways for a 16th-level fighter to not care about DR), but I don't see the point in arguing the point.

I'll probably just branch it when I get the chance.

[bobthe6th]

Meh. I don't particularly like it (and I'm pretty sure there a billion other ways for a 16th-level fighter to not care about DR), but I don't see the point in arguing the point.

I'll probably just branch it when I get the chance.

Mountain hammer being the easy level one manuver which is better then the abilaty of a 16th level fighter(it ignores all DR/hardness...).
one feat(martial stance), or one level (warblade 1) will net you this ability...

I think it is safe to say ignoring DR should be a lower level ability with some cost attached to it.

Claim

[Rogue Shadows]

Mountain hammer being the easy level one manuver which is better then the abilaty of a 16th level fighter(it ignores all DR/hardness...).

Actually it's a 2nd-level maneuver; otherwise, good point.

This is why I hate maneuvers...try to think up something nice for the fighter, half the time, there's a maneuver for it already, which really sucks when you don't want maneuvers...

A notable point, though: Mountain Hammer can only be used on a single melee attack, Sunder Wall is used on every attack, melee or ranged.

[bobthe6th]

This is why I hate maneuvers...try to think up something nice for the fighter, half the time, there's a maneuver for it already, which really sucks when you don't want maneuvers...

A notable point, though: Mountain Hammer can only be used on a single melee attack, Sunder Wall is used on every attack, melee or ranged.

but it comes up 13 levels later... not like 4 or something.

also, from earlier...


Incidentally, is the combat style list...incomplete? Shouldn't Power Attack be in there? Or Mounted Combat?

no, as I was trying to limit the selection to just profs and EWP... rapid reload, quick draw, and IUS are like the EWP for crossbows thrown weapons and unarmed strikes respectively.
Additionally, PA is really weak at first level, as -1 to hit is a real problem then.
for both those styles, you probably what like EWP full blade or WF lance/bow.

[lesser_minion]

Claim.

And yes, there might be some calligraphy involved.

[Rogue Shadows]

Additionally, PA is really weak at first level, as -1 to hit is a real problem then.

Granted, but it's still really weird that a feat available from level 1 and which is itself the start of a chain of related feats which give you a combat style, isn't available as a combat style feat...ditto other options.

I had been assuming that the combat style feats work sort of like an expanded, customizable version of the ranger's combat style feat selection...of the feats listed, in fact, half of them aren't even part of what I'd think of as "combat styles..."

The feat list should really be more like:
- Combat Expertise
- Dodge
- Improved Unarmed Strike
- Mounted Combat
- Point Blank Shot
- Power Attack
- Two-Weapon Fighting
- Maaaaybe Weapon Focus

Which gives you the starting feats of all the various feat chains from the PHB.

Rapid Reload isn't even a prerequisite for anything, not in core, in any event...same with Quick Draw and Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Those are just feats you take, they don't do anything, really, and are only peripherally related to any kind of what I'd consider to be a combat style.

You might be able to make an argument for Rapid Reload, but really only if you can give me some good examples of crossbow-only feats.

(Side note - regardless of whichever list you use, how is this better from the baseline fighter's "Here's a big list of feats, pick one that you otherwise meet the prerequisites for," exactly?)


but it comes up 13 levels later... not like 4 or something.

Thing is, it's only bad in a world where maneuvers exist. Without maneuvers, it's actually not bad at all...

[bobthe6th]

(Side note - regardless of whichever list you use, how is this better from the baseline fighter's "Here's a big list of feats, pick one that you otherwise meet the prerequisites for," exactly?)

I think you misunderstood my intentions. I wanted to limit choices at first level to EWP and WF because they both amount to a +1 to hit or damage.
The fighter is stupidly front loaded. it gets two feats in two levels+full BAB. Now it gets 6, three at first level.
If we let them start grabbing the beginnings of chains... that defeats the purpose of the change.



Thing is, it's only bad in a world where maneuvers exist. Without maneuvers, it's actually not bad at all...

no, it is still bad, as it is like +1-20 damage at the most agaist some targets... as a 16th level ability. you have at most 4 non fighter levels... and it gave you just that?

[Rogue Shadows]

I think you misunderstood my intentions. I wanted to limit choices at first level to EWP and WF because they both amount to a +1 to hit or damage.
The fighter is stupidly front loaded. it gets two feats in two levels+full BAB. Now it gets 6, three at first level.
If we let them start grabbing the beginnings of chains... that defeats the purpose of the change.

I...do not understand the point you are making here. The purpose of combat styles over just plain bonus feats was to introduce versatility, right? How does giving the fighter his choice of three actual combat styles, as opposed to three random-ass feats with only imagined connectivity to actual combat styles, negatively impact versatility?


no, it is still bad, as it is like +1-20 damage at the most agaist some targets... as a 16th level ability. you have at most 4 non fighter levels... and it gave you just that?

Well, what do you suggest, then? For my part I think being able to outright ignore DR is actually a pretty big thing, but apparently that's just me.

Stepping back and looking at the ability's design goal - which is to suggest that at this point a fighter doesn't need a wizard to deal tremendous damage to objects and creatures - what would you do instead?

[bobthe6th]

I...do not understand the point you are making here. The purpose of combat styles over just plain bonus feats was to introduce versatility, right? How does giving the fighter his choice of three actual combat styles, as opposed to three random-ass feats with only imagined connectivity to actual combat styles, negatively impact versatility?


because it means you can dip two levels of fighter and have power attack+cleave/point blank shot+rapid shot/weapon expertise+improved trip...

versus EWP full blade+PA/weapon focus long bow+point blank shot/Improved unarmed strike+improved grapple.

it is more to make a fighter dip a bit weaker, while not overly effecting a control class fighter.



Well, what do you suggest, then? For my part I think being able to outright ignore DR is actually a pretty big thing, but apparently that's just me.

Stepping back and looking at the ability's design goal - which is to suggest that at this point a fighter doesn't need a wizard to deal tremendous damage to objects and creatures - what would you do instead?

As a categorical thing in a core only game it might be... but are we assuming this will be used with just core? I would like it to be able to hold its own in a T3-4 full 3.5 game.

I would make it a progression starting at like adimantine and going to force...

[lesser_minion]

How much of a problem is that? The problem here is that it's hard enough to get good at multiple combat styles, and it's not like barbs or pallies have it any easier.

By the way, it's your turn.

[bobthe6th]

ok, so added a monk esque system of overcoming damage reductions.



The Fighter
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Perfect War-Skill
1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2|Combat Styles (3), Perfect War-Skill, Determination|+0
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+3|Combat Style Feat|+0
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3|Physical prowess, Artifice|+1
4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+4|Combat Style Feat, The Bigger They Are... (1), Rapid Repositioning (half)|+1
5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+4|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (4), Improved Determination, Man Over Magic(Adimantine)|+1
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+5|Combat Style Feat|+2
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+5|Physical prowess, Swift Combat Style|+2
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+6|Combat Style Feat, One Step Ahead, The Bigger They Are... (2)|+2
9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+6|Physical prowess, Timing|+3
10th|
+10/+5/|
+7|
+3|
+7|Combat Style Feat, Bonus Combat Style (5)|+3
11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+7|Physical prowess, Man over Magic (Exotic)|+3
12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+8|Combat Style Feat, ...The Harder They Fall, Rapid Repositioning (full)|+4
13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+8|Physical prowess|+4
14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+9|Combat Style Feat|+4
15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+9|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (6)|+5
16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+10|Combat Style Feat|+5
17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10|Physical prowess, Immediate Combat Style, Man Over Magic (force)|+5
18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+11|Combat Style Feat|+6
19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+11|Physical prowess|+6
20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+12|Combat Style Feat, Bonus Combat Style (7)|+6[/table]

Hit Die: d10
Skill Points: 6 + Int modifier, x4 at 1st level. Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: history, Knowledge: nobility, Knowledge: local, Listen, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and UMD

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter gains three Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a one of the following.
weapon focus, exotic weapon proficiency, improved unarmed strike, rapid reload, two weapon fighting, or quick draw.

At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style.

At level 2, and every 2 levels thereafter (4, 6, 8, ect.) the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Perfect War-Skill (Ex): A Fighter ignores any prerequisites for feats that don't involve BAB, skill ranks, or class features, but only when selecting feats for their Combat Styles.

For all purposes, a Fighter may use either their Perfect War-Skill bonus or their physical ability score modifiers, whichever would be higher. For example, a 12th level Fighter with a Dexterity of 8 would have a +4 bonus to their AC from Dexterity, would get +4 to their Reflex saves, and would get 4 additional attacks of opportunity if they took Combat Reflexes.

In addition, a Fighter of at least 3rd level adds the bonus listed in the Perfect War-Skill column to their BAB for the purpose of prerequisites; finally, if a feat gives a static numerical bonus, use the feat's bonus or the bonus from Perfect War-Skill, whichever is higher.

Physical Prowess (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter gets a bonus to some aspect of his ability checks that makes him a better warrior. The fighter gains an additional bonus at 5th level and every two fighter levels thereafter (7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). The bonus must be drawn from the following list.


Applied Force (Ex): A fighter can administer force to the weakest points of inanimate objects effectively, giving the character a +1 bonus on Strength checks to break or burst items (see page 165 of the Player's Handbook).

Combat Bearing (Ex): A fighter can steady himself to fight in precarious situations, giving the character a +1 bonus on Dexterity checks to avoid falling when damaged while balancing or moving quickly across difficult surfaces (see Balance on page 67 of the Player's Handbook).

Stamina Reserve (Ex): A fighter can push his body more than normal, giving the character a +1 bonus on Constitution checks to continue running (see page 144 of the Player's Handbook) and to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march (see page 164 of the Player's Handbook).


Artifice(Su): At third level, a fighter has learned something about magical weapons. He may chose to have the highest bonus granting weapon in his possession(carried somewhere on his person) apply all relevant magical bonuses to any weapon he wields.

The Bigger They Are... (Ex): A true warrior knows that size is not the same thing as strength. Beginning at 4th level, when attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, a fighter gains a +4 bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and the like, effectively cancelling out one size category's worth of difference.

At 8th level, this bonus improves to +8 against foes who are two size categories or more larger than him, effectively cancelling out two size categories worth of difference. Against foes one size larger than him, this bonus is still only +4. For example, a human fighter would have a +4 bonus to grapple checks against and ogre (large size), but a +8 bonus against a cloud giant (huge size).

Rapid Repositioning (Ex): Once on the battlefield, a fighter's mental conditioning pays off: she becomes adept at reading the flow of battle and ensuring that she acts at the right moment.

From 4th level onwards, a fighter may move up to half her speed as an immediate action. At 12th level, this class feature improves to allow the fighter to move up to her full speed as an immediate action.

If this class feature is used to interrupt another character's action, the movement granted becomes subject to an 'en passant' rule: the fighter is treated as occupying her original space, her destination space, and every space she passes through on her movement. If she interrupted an attack that passed through one of these spaces, she grants cover to the target of that attack.

Note that a creature may be hit by attacks against which it conferred cover on another creature, even if it was not the original target.

A fighter may not use Rapid Repositioning while fatigued or exhausted.

Improved Determination (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, a fighter gains a bonus equal to half his class level to all Fortitude and Will saves to resist effects that would restrict his actions, including (but not limited to) death effects, petrification and polymorph effects, compulsion effects, and anything that would be blocked by the Freedom of Movement spell.

Man Over Magic (Ex): At 5th level, a Fighter starts to power his weapons with his own Ki energy. Any weapon he wields is considered adimantine for hardness, HP, and overcoming Damage reduction. It also overcomes other objects harness as adimantine would.

At 9th level, his mastery becomes greater. His weapon is considered to be any exotic matirial(such as alchemical silver or byeshk) for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

At 17th level, He masters his focus. His weapon overcomes all damage reduction, and can end any force effect(such as a wall of force or force cage) that he is adjacent to by making an attack(the attack just counts as used, he doesn't make an actual attack).

One Step Ahead (Ex): At 8th level, the fighter's skill at understanding the flow of a battle pays off further. Sometimes, she finds herself so far ahead of her opponents that they simply cannot do a single thing she cannot anticipate and move to avoid.

Whenever the fighter moves (five foot steps do not qualify, but any other movement the fighter undertakes of her own volition does), she need not declare where until the start of her next turn. While the fighter's position is undeclared, she becomes immune to any effect that relies on perceiving her, or which depends on her position (note that she is not actually imperceptible), but may not herself take any action that depends on her position. This applies even if an effect covers every single space she could have moved to. If the fighter applies this class feature to the movement from Rapid Repositioning, she may ignore the 'en passant' principle.

This ability is difficult to sustain. At the end of any round in which it was used, there is a 50% chance that it becomes unavailable for five rounds.

A fighter may not use One Step Ahead while fatigued or exhausted.

Timing(Ex):At 9th level, a fighter knows just when to strike with his weapon. At any point during their turn, they can chose not to make an attack they would normally make. So in a full attack action, they can chose to not take one of the attacks. If they do so, they can make a number of attacks equal to the number they chose not to make as free actions at any time until their next turn.

...The Harder They Fall (Ex): By 12th level, a fighter is a master at redirecting a foe's force. When attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, he gains a bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and so on equal to his opponent's size bonus.

This ability effectively replaces The Bigger They Are...


Done

edit: Its more that Fighter 2 is a common dip that was always a bit cheesy. In addition most fighting styles are like 4 feats long, excepting TWF(which I forgot to add onto the list). this delaies most styles from 6th to 8th(not that long a jump), while weakening the dip version by nearly half.

It also pressures players to use interesting weapons(EWP, RR, or QD), or have to take the poor feat WF.

[Rogue Shadows]

because it means you can dip two levels of fighter and have power attack+cleave/point blank shot+rapid shot/weapon expertise+improved trip...

versus EWP full blade+PA/weapon focus long bow+point blank shot/Improved unarmed strike+improved grapple.

it is more to make a fighter dip a bit weaker, while not overly effecting a control class fighter.

Is Fighter supposed to be a control class? I've seen it more as a Defender/Striker, personally, as long as we're using 4E terminology.

And it's still a ludicrously attractive dip either way, since you're dipping and netting either three (for one level) or six (for two) free feats, plus the HD, BAB, saves, skills...the difference being that at least you're getting actual, y'know, combat styles out of the Combat Style progression if'n we go my way.

Though I'd like to reiterate: not a fan of that, and the fact that I completely forgot about dipping and just realized that this fighter nets you three or six free feats, has not helped its case. An awful class the fighter may have been to go for twenty, ten, or even arguably five levels in, but as a one-or-two level dip it was already great. Now it's better?

...by the way, why does the fighter still have 6 + Int skill points? I thought that was going to be lowered? When I think "Fighter" I don't think "skill monkey," but that's what it is right now, or damn close, anyway. A fighter should not have the same skill progression as a bard.

[bobthe6th]

Is Fighter supposed to be a control class? I've seen it more as a Defender/Striker, personally, as long as we're using 4E terminology.


Higher grounds terminoligy... more dip vs main class.



And it's still a ludicrously attractive dip either way, since you're dipping and netting either three (for one level) or six (for two) free feats, plus the HD, BAB, saves, skills...the difference being that at least you're getting actual, y'know, combat styles out of the Combat Style progression if'n we go my way.


Well my way they get 3 semi feats, and three actual feats. EWP is a really bad feat short of spiked chain, and the rest tend to be things just to much to give for free, but not enough to be real feats.



Though I'd like to reiterate: not a fan of that, and the fact that I completely forgot about dipping and just realized that this fighter nets you three or six free feats, has not helped its case. An awful class the fighter may have been to go for twenty, ten, or even arguably five levels in, but as a one-or-two level dip it was already great. Now it's better?


Well... that was what I was trying to fix... by giving it 3 ****ty feats for first level. Still, it is a little crazy.

how about a monk/pally like cavieat? If you have more levels in other classes then you do in fighter, you lose access to all but one combat style. This is fluffed as you lazing on your combat training as you pick up other class levels(like barbarian, or wizard.)

Suddenly it is less of a fantastic dip as you have to keep advancing it to get the effects. so a fighter 2/barbarian 2 would have to really think about another level of fighter or



...by the way, why does the fighter still have 6 + Int skill points? I thought that was going to be lowered? When I think "Fighter" I don't think "skill monkey," but that's what it is right now, or damn close, anyway. A fighter should not have the same skill progression as a bard.

It should be effective out of combat, and it lacks the skills to do much... except someone tricked out the skill list while I wasn't looking. I would revise the skill list, and give them brabarian int+4 skills/level, with two bonus ranks at each level(8 at first level) that can only be spent on a knowledge or something.

[Rogue Shadows]

how about a monk/pally like cavieat? If you have more levels in other classes then you do in fighter, you lose access to all but one combat style. This is fluffed as you lazing on your combat training as you pick up other class levels(like barbarian, or wizard.)

Not a fan of this, because I'm not a fan of this ability in the Paladin or Monk as-is, and I'd rather not slap it on a fighter as well.

Classes aren't generally supposed to be something that exists in-game, but rather, just the name under which a number of abilities are organized which, when totaled together with all your other classes, gives you your total character. A character shouldn't be able to think to himself "huh, I'm a level X fighter but a level Y barbarian, better make sure my next level is in fighter if I don't want to lose access to my ludicrous feats."

Besides, what if you've dipped Rogue or Barbarian or whatever in order to advance your combat ability? It doesn't make sense to penalize your combat styles then.

So, to reiterate: not a fan of this idea (but then, I'm not a fan of it for the monk or paladin either, and it's usually the first thing I homebrew out).


It should be effective out of combat, and it lacks the skills to do much... except someone tricked out the skill list while I wasn't looking. I would revise the skill list, and give them brabarian int+4 skills/level, with two bonus ranks at each level(8 at first level) that can only be spent on a knowledge or something.

I'd rather just give them 4 + Int skills/level and just leave it at that.

If you want to be effective when not fighting than you shouldn't be in a class called Fighter. Taking levels in Fighter implicitly means that fighting and combat are your top priority, which means that social interaction, detective work, random trivia, etc., skills need to please move over to the side. While you can branch into them, your ability to do so should be limited, unless you're willing to multiclass out. You shouldn't be able to sub for the skill monkey.

Though I do agree that they should have more than 2 + Int/level, that's just kind of sad for things other than the Cleric and Wizard.

(As the Wizard's primary stat is Intelligence, they effectively have 4 + Int skills; as for the Cleric, much as the Fighter is sort of the opposite of the wizard, I view the Cleric as the opposite of a Rogue. So the cleric should get the least skill points to oppose the rogue's most skill points)

[bobthe6th]

Classes aren't generally supposed to be something that exists in-game, but rather, just the name under which a number of abilities are organized which, when totaled together with all your other classes, gives you your total character. A character shouldn't be able to think to himself "huh, I'm a level X fighter but a level Y barbarian, better make sure my next level is in fighter if I don't want to lose access to my ludicrous feats."

Besides, what if you've dipped Rogue or Barbarian or whatever in order to advance your combat ability? It doesn't make sense to penalize your combat styles then.

So, to reiterate: not a fan of this idea (but then, I'm not a fan of it for the monk or paladin either, and it's usually the first thing I homebrew out).


See, the problem is if you let them dip freely you get the problem you were just complaining about.

[Rogue Shadows]

See, the problem is if you let them dip freely you get the problem you were just complaining about.

The problem, notably, only exists because of a mechanic that I'm already not a fan of.

Personally I'd rather change the mechanic then penalize multiclassing (which I've always felt should be fairly loose and easy), but perhaps that's just me.

[lesser_minion]

Sorry about the chase, bobthe6th.

And done.


The Fighter
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Perfect War-Skill
1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2|Combat Styles (3), Perfect War-Skill, Determination|+0
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+3|Combat Style Feat|+0
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3|Physical prowess, Artifice|+1
4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+4|Combat Style Feat, The Bigger They Are... (1), Rapid Repositioning (5ft/2 class levels)|+1
5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+4|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (4), Improved Determination, Man Over Magic(Adimantine)|+1
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+5|Combat Style Feat|+2
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+5|Physical prowess, Swift Combat Style|+2
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+6|Combat Style Feat, Whirlwind Defence, The Bigger They Are... (2)|+2
9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+6|Physical prowess, Timing|+3
10th|
+10/+5/|
+7|
+3|
+7|Combat Style Feat, Bonus Combat Style (5)|+3
11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+7|Physical prowess, Man over Magic (Exotic)|+3
12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+8|Combat Style Feat, ...The Harder They Fall, Faster than Thought|+4
13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+8|Physical prowess|+4
14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+9|Combat Style Feat|+4
15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+9|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (6)|+5
16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+10|Combat Style Feat|+5
17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10|Physical prowess, Immediate Combat Style, Man Over Magic (force)|+5
18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+11|Combat Style Feat|+6
19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+11|Physical prowess|+6
20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+12|Combat Style Feat, Bonus Combat Style (7)|+6[/table]

Hit Die: d10
Skill Points: 6 + Int modifier, x4 at 1st level. Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: history, Knowledge: nobility, Knowledge: local, Listen, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and UMD

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter gains three Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a one of the following.
weapon focus, exotic weapon proficiency, improved unarmed strike, rapid reload, or quick draw.

At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style.

At level 2, and every 2 levels thereafter (4, 6, 8, ect.) the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Perfect War-Skill (Ex): A Fighter ignores any prerequisites for feats that don't involve BAB, skill ranks, or class features, but only when selecting feats for their Combat Styles.

For all purposes, a Fighter may use either their Perfect War-Skill bonus or their physical ability score modifiers, whichever would be higher. For example, a 12th level Fighter with a Dexterity of 8 would have a +4 bonus to their AC from Dexterity, would get +4 to their Reflex saves, and would get 4 additional attacks of opportunity if they took Combat Reflexes.

In addition, a Fighter of at least 3rd level adds the bonus listed in the Perfect War-Skill column to their BAB for the purpose of prerequisites; finally, if a feat gives a static numerical bonus, use the feat's bonus or the bonus from Perfect War-Skill, whichever is higher.

Physical Prowess (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter gets a bonus to some aspect of his ability checks that makes him a better warrior. The fighter gains an additional bonus at 5th level and every two fighter levels thereafter (7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). The bonus must be drawn from the following list.


Applied Force (Ex): A fighter can administer force to the weakest points of inanimate objects effectively, giving the character a +1 bonus on Strength checks to break or burst items (see page 165 of the Player's Handbook).

Combat Bearing (Ex): A fighter can steady himself to fight in precarious situations, giving the character a +1 bonus on Dexterity checks to avoid falling when damaged while balancing or moving quickly across difficult surfaces (see Balance on page 67 of the Player's Handbook).

Stamina Reserve (Ex): A fighter can push his body more than normal, giving the character a +1 bonus on Constitution checks to continue running (see page 144 of the Player's Handbook) and to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march (see page 164 of the Player's Handbook).


Artifice(Su): At third level, a fighter has learned something about magical weapons. He may chose to have the highest bonus granting weapon in his possession(carried somewhere on his person) apply all relevant magical bonuses to any weapon he wields.

The Bigger They Are... (Ex): A true warrior knows that size is not the same thing as strength. Beginning at 4th level, when attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, a fighter gains a +4 bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and the like, effectively cancelling out one size category's worth of difference.

At 8th level, this bonus improves to +8 against foes who are two size categories or more larger than him, effectively cancelling out two size categories worth of difference. Against foes one size larger than him, this bonus is still only +4. For example, a human fighter would have a +4 bonus to grapple checks against and ogre (large size), but a +8 bonus against a cloud giant (huge size).

Rapid Repositioning (Ex): The fighter is adept at reading the flow of battle and quickly repositioning herself to be in the right place at the right time. From 4th level onwards, she may move up to 5ft per two class levels as an immediate action. This movement may use any medium for which she has a corresponding speed.

If this class feature is used to interrupt another character's action, the movement granted becomes subject to an 'en passant' rule: the fighter is treated as occupying her original space, her destination space, and every space she passes through during her move. If she interrupted an attack that passed through one of these spaces, she grants cover to the target of that attack.

Note that a creature may be hit by attacks against which it conferred cover on another creature, even if it was not the original target.

Improved Determination (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, a fighter gains a bonus equal to half his class level to all Fortitude and Will saves to resist effects that would restrict his actions, including (but not limited to) death effects, petrification and polymorph effects, compulsion effects, and anything that would be blocked by the Freedom of Movement spell.

Man Over Magic (Ex): At 5th level, a Fighter starts to power his weapons with his own Ki energy. Any weapon he wields is considered adamantine for hardness, HP, and overcoming Damage reduction. It also overcomes other objects harness as adamantine would.

At 9th level, his mastery becomes greater. His weapon is considered to be any exotic material(such as alchemical silver or byshek) for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

At 17th level, He masters his focus. His weapon overcomes all damage reduction, and can end any force effect(such as a wall of force or force cage) that he is adjacent to by making an attack(the attack just counts as used, he doesn't make an actual attack).

Whirlwind Defence (Ex): The fighter is adept at anticipating threats and reacting to defend herself from them.

As an immediate action, a fighter of 8th level or higher may protect herself against a single attack using a whirlwind defence.

A whirlwind defence grants omnidirectional improved cover to the character being defended. Additionally, each attack, spell, or other effect directed against a character protected by a whirlwind defence has a 50% chance of being denied line of effect altogether. Note that even though this is effectively a percentage chance for an attack to miss, it is not a miss chance.

If a fighter uses whirlwind defence against an attack of opportunity, the attack of opportunity automatically fails and is wasted unless the attacker can normally make attacks of opportunity against opponents with cover.

Whirlwind Defence is effective against incorporeal creatures, but unless the fighter has force attacks or a weapon that can strike incorporeal beings equally effectively, only grants ordinary cover against them, with no chance of interrupting line of effect.

Timing(Ex):At 9th level, a fighter knows just when to strike with his weapon. At any point during their turn, they can chose not to make an attack they would normally make. So in a full attack action, they can chose to not take one of the attacks. If they do so, they can make a number of attacks equal to the number they chose not to make as free actions at any time until their next turn.

...The Harder They Fall (Ex): By 12th level, a fighter is a master at redirecting a foe's force. When attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, he gains a bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and so on equal to his opponent's size bonus.

This ability effectively replaces The Bigger They Are...

Faster than Thought (Ex): From 12th level onwards, a fighter may, as a swift action, enter a state of heightened awareness, during which she thinks so far ahead of her enemies that they are almost incapable of doing something that she cannot counter. The benefits of this class feature last until the start of the fighter's next turn.

While in this state of heightened awareness, the fighter protects the entire area within a radius of 5ft per two class levels of her.

Allies within this area, including the fighter herself, receive the benefits of whirlwind defence against all attacks, spells, and other hostile acts. Allies other than the fighter may forego the whirlwind defence and claim total concealment instead. The fighter also threatens the entirety of her protected area.

Each time the fighter uses this class feature, she must make a DC25 fighter level check or lose access to it for five rounds.



I'm calling this an edit to One Step Ahead.

The main changes are that rapid repositioning now scales on its own. One Step Ahead is now 12th level, has been re-named to Faster than Thought, and re-written. It's the class feature you use to re-enact the calligraphy scene from Hero.

I'd like to bring back the concept of hiding one step ahead of your opponents, but the mechanics need work.

I also have a class feature in mind that lets the fighter use his attacks to dictate an opponent's actions. Partly because I like the mental image of punching someone so hard that they turn into a duck, and partly because disrupting people in just the right way that they do something harmful to their cause actually does seem like an interesting continuation of the faster-than-thought theme.

[Rogue Shadows]

I also have a class feature in mind that lets the fighter use his attacks to dictate an opponent's actions. Partly because I like the mental image of punching someone so hard that they turn into a duck, and partly because disrupting people in just the right way that they do something harmful to their cause actually does seem like an interesting continuation of the faster-than-thought theme.

Punching someone so hard they turn into a duck? That's...a bit out there.

I do like the general idea of disruption, but couldn't it be accomplished largely by, I dunno, a mechanic that lets fighters shove their targets around by X many squares on a successful hit? Or let fighters take a hit but then doing so leaves the attack very vulnerable, or stuff.

[lesser_minion]

Punching someone so hard they turn into a duck? That's...a bit out there.

Well, to do that, you would have to punch someone who can already turn into a duck on their own. And it's not really the intent of the ability. It's just an amusing mental image.

As for shoving people around, that seems more than a little wimpy for high levels, especially as something that's supposed to build on Faster than Thought.

And accepting hits strikes me as off-theme -- again, this is supposed to build on re-enacting one of the most memorable scenes from Hero.

[Rogue Shadows]

As for shoving people around, that seems more than a little wimpy for high levels, especially as something that's supposed to build on Faster than Thought.

Depends on how far you shove them, and how much damage they take as a result of the shove...I'm not talking a paltry 6 squares, here.

We have a theme?

[lesser_minion]

Well, yes, we do have a theme. We're designing a fighter. The superlative martial artist. The guy who knows that no amount of raw physical strength will save you from a truly skilled warrior. The guy whose battle instincts are so finely honed that he can fight his way through 20 legions without suffering so much as a scratch.

[Sypher667]

At what BAB are the attacks from Timing made? Full, I drop my last 3 and remake them in the full attack. As mentioned, less fun, but still nice. As is, I have no idea.

[lesser_minion]

Currently, it looks like it. Feel free to clear it up if you want.

[Rogue Shadows]

Well, yes, we do have a theme. We're designing a fighter. The superlative martial artist. The guy who knows that no amount of raw physical strength will save you from a truly skilled warrior. The guy whose battle instincts are so finely honed that he can fight his way through 20 legions without suffering so much as a scratch.

...since when has this been the theme? I was with you up to the "we're designing a fighter" part, but when did friggin' Hero enter the picture?

...and does that really match up with a guy in plate mail? That sounds like a Monk to me...

[lesser_minion]

...since when has this been the theme? I was with you up to the "we're designing a fighter" part, but when did friggin' Hero enter the picture?

Well, again, we're not really designing a dumb hulking brute because anyone wanting to play one of those would play a barbarian.

In any event, I'm not using Hero as part of the theme, I'm just using it as an example of things a high-level fighter might do (and I'm deliberately avoiding any sort of wire stuff).

Fending off an entire volley of arrows? Fits wonderfully. Fighting on a lake? Not so much.


...and does that really match up with a guy in plate mail? That sounds like a Monk to me...

Curse of the Golden Flower disagrees.

On a serious note, you've spent too much time listening to swordsages. Wearing plate is neither inherent to the fighter, nor does it preclude you from being a skilled martial artist.

[Rogue Shadows]

Well, again, we're not really designing a dumb hulking brute because anyone wanting to play one of those would play a barbarian.

Why do you have to be a dumb hulking brute to take damage for teammates in order to turn said interposing into a tactical advantage?


On a serious note, you've spent too much time listening to swordsages. Wearing plate is neither inherent to the fighter, nor does it preclude you from being a skilled martial artist.

While true, when I hear "fighter," I don't think of this guy (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-N2ozf-bkkK4/Tr4HXs2JhPI/AAAAAAAAAzU/JM61cWsahDg/s1600/curse-of-the-golden-flower-man-cheng-jin-dai-huang-jin-jia-5.jpg) (I've never even heard of this movie, though admittedly my knowledge of East Asian cinema begins and ends with Kung Fu Hustle), I think of this guy (http://micahblackburn.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/valeros.jpg).

When I think of things a high-level fighter is doing, he isn't a guy who's nimbly avoiding a dragon's claws and giving it a death by a thousand cuts, he's a guy who's climbing on the dragon and stabbing it in the heart and head, not because he's dumb muscle, but because that's how you kill a dragon. Or if he's on the ground at all, it's only because he's just put himself between the dragon's fiery breath and the plucky rogue or squishy wizard and has raised his shield to fend of the flames.

He's physical and brutal; he's savvy but because he knows how to take a hit, not how to avoid one (which isn't to say that he can't avoid a hit, but he's much more likely to take one because he knows that if you're swinging, then you're exposing yourself, and he's going to exploit that opening. If you want to compare him to a hand-to-hand combat style, he's a boxer: he beats the Kung Fu master by purely outlasting him, by being able to keep getting back up after being thrown down. That doesn't make him dumb muscle, it just means that his muscle and his toughness are his best qualities and he knows it. He's differentiated from the barbarian by being based on training and skill rather than blind rage and by the fact that he can keep fighting long after the barbarian's rage, his sole advantage over the Fighter, has ended and the barbarian is gasping for breath in exhaustion.

[bobthe6th]

At what BAB are the attacks from Timing made? Full, I drop my last 3 and remake them in the full attack. As mentioned, less fun, but still nice. As is, I have no idea.

It could be explained better, but the intent was to be at the same attack bonus as the attack they chose not to make.
The idea was to allow them to make their attacks when and how they liked, without increasing the number of attacks.

also, on the whole martial artist v.s fighter... a martial artist is just a practitioner of a fighting style. The assumed Asian semi magical version is not all possible people that spend time learning how to fight.

also... you can't actually stop dragon fire... and the rules force you to stand their and stab it in the toe until it dies... also you don't want to take any hits, so you were armor that increases your chance to be missed.

also, interposing is hard if not impossible, and is done better by a knight... or even a crusader.

so yeah, counter point.

also, a guy who spends time learning how to fight, getting deep into fighting style feat chains and mastering combat in melee or range... sound familiar? it is a good description of a martial artist, and the idea behind the fighter.

So fighter=martial artist, not knight.

[Rogue Shadows]

also, on the whole martial artist v.s fighter... a martial artist is just a practitioner of a fighting style. The assumed Asian semi magical version is not all possible people that spend time learning how to fight.

Clearly we have not heard of "colloquialisms" here...put another way, you're lying if you tell me that when you read "martial artist," the image that pops into your head isn't Jackie Chan or Bruce Lee or that time you took karate lessons as a kid or something.


also... you can't actually stop dragon fire... and the rules force you to stand their and stab it in the toe until it dies...

That's something that should be fixed, then.

Also there are totally ways to stop dragon fire. The spell shield ACF for the sorcerer from Dungeonscape springs to mind, but there are others.


also you don't want to take any hits, so you were armor that increases your chance to be missed.

Yes, but taking a hit on your armor is very different from avoiding a blow entirely, thematically if not by the rules.


also, a guy who spends time learning how to fight, getting deep into fighting style feat chains and mastering combat in melee or range... sound familiar? it is a good description of a martial artist, and the idea behind the fighter.

The idea behind the Fighter is a warrior in full plate who defends the wizard, fights alongside the cleric, and sets up flanks and sneak attack opportunities for the rogue. The idea behind the fighter class is classic examples like Conan, Kull, and Gimli and Boromir and Aragorn and so on and so forth.

The idea behind the fighter is the knight in shining armor.

That's obviously not the idea behind this fighter...and I don't like it.

[Lord_Gareth]

The idea behind the Fighter is a warrior in full plate who defends the wizard, fights alongside the cleric, and sets up flanks and sneak attack opportunities for the rogue. The idea behind the fighter class is classic examples like Conan, Kull, and Gimli and Boromir and Aragorn and so on and so forth.

The idea behind the fighter is the knight in shining armor.

That's obviously not the idea behind this fighter...and I don't like it.

That'd be great if all of your examples weren't level 5-7 or so. The level 20 fighter is not Conan or Gimli or Aragorn. Frankly the level 8 fighter isn't even any of these people. Have you read the monster section of the SRD within the last month or so? If not, I suggest you do this - don't look at the stat blocks, just look at the pictures. In D&D fighters are supposed to take on dragons, and demons, and devils, and the odd rogue celestial, and liches, and GIANT BALLS OF SAPIENT CHAOS, and countless other horrible soul-shredding monstrosities that would make Conan break his sword and live the rest of his life as a pacifistic monk.

The examples you give are for low-level games. We need to think broader than that.

Additionally, "meat shield," is a terrible role to force a player into.

That is all.

[Kazyan]

Lord_Gareth has a point, and the reason we don't see quadratic warriors to compliment quadratic wizards is because there are no tropes for quadratic fighters. Which means, you guys basically don't have a source material to draw upon, no feel to replicate. Nothing that will make the fighter competitive at high levels will feel like a fighter because there are no popular characters that spring to mind and can be modeled by what a level 10+ mundane character in D&D 3.5 is expected to do. (Run-on!) You're going to have to break the mold.

[Lord_Gareth]

Lord_Gareth has a point, and the reason we don't see quadratic warriors to compliment quadratic wizards is because there are no tropes for quadratic fighters. Which means, you guys basically don't have a source material to draw upon, no feel to replicate. Nothing that will make the fighter competitive at high levels will feel like a fighter because there are no popular characters that spring to mind and can be modeled by what a level 10+ mundane character in D&D 3.5 is expected to do. (Run-on!) You're going to have to break the mold.

But there are. People just have to reach further than they normally do for these things. Tome of Battle did it some already, but there's other places to look. I mean, Thor was so mighty that he went fishing for the World Serpent AND CAUGHT IT. Slaying an army of demons with a mighty volley of arrows? Doing battle with a three-headed dragon and shackling it beneath the flames of the Earth?

There's wuxia tropes that could be used, Ninjutsu tropes that could be used. Hell, there's SCIENCE tropes that could be used, and other works (like anime or videogames) draw on those tropes freely. The D&D fighter SHOULD be doing all of that, but it doesn't because people want it to "feel mundane" or be constrained to a narrow and insulting role.

[Rogue Shadows]

That'd be great if all of your examples weren't level 5-7 or so. The level 20 fighter is not Conan or Gimli or Aragorn. Frankly the level 8 fighter isn't even any of these people. Have you read the monster section of the SRD within the last month or so?

Oh Jeeze - I'm not saying that the fighter is these things, I'm saying that he should be.


Additionally, "meat shield," is a terrible role to force a player into.

Only if the fighter can't take it.


Which means, you guys basically don't have a source material to draw upon, no feel to replicate.

Kratos.


Thor was so mighty that he went fishing for the World Serpent AND CAUGHT IT.

Well, Thor's a god, so I'd consider that to be a bit too far.


There's wuxia tropes that could be used, Ninjutsu tropes that could be used. Hell, there's SCIENCE tropes that could be used, and other works (like anime or videogames) draw on those tropes freely. The D&D fighter SHOULD be doing all of that, but it doesn't because people want it to "feel mundane" or be constrained to a narrow and insulting role.

Why's there no sword & board tropes? High-level classic style fighter tropes? That's what I want to see.

[Lord_Gareth]

Kratos.

You mean that gish with his divine casting and Warblade maneuvers? That guy? You know the guy - the one spamming Adamantine Hurricane every other round?

[Rogue Shadows]

You mean that gish with his divine casting and Warblade maneuvers? That guy? You know the guy - the one spamming Adamantine Hurricane every other round?

He's only doing that if you interpret it that way, as I highly doubt that the game creators were thinking to themselves "yeah, D&D, maneuvers, woo!"

Heck, I see a guy spamming Whirlwind Attack.

[Lord_Gareth]

Why's there no sword & board tropes? High-level classic style fighter tropes? That's what I want to see.

Because there are no "high-level" sword-and-board tropes. They either get fried trying to fight the dragon in single combat or, more likely, they're some kind of freakish maniac (see: adventurer) with a rare and exotic fighting style (see: adventurer). I mean, geez, what's the last sword-and-board guy you even SAW in fiction? Captain America? And he's, what, maybe 5th level?

[Rogue Shadows]

Because there are no "high-level" sword-and-board tropes. They either get fried trying to fight the dragon in single combat or, more likely, they're some kind of freakish maniac (see: adventurer) with a rare and exotic fighting style (see: adventurer). I mean, geez, what's the last sword-and-board guy you even SAW in fiction? Captain America? And he's, what, maybe 5th level?

Actually I was thinking Link, or maybe that guy from Shadow of the Colossus.

Also, the sword & board trope only doesn't work because we've convinced ourselves that it shouldn't. There is no mechanical reason why we shouldn't be able to construct a sword & board fighter that can survive past level 8.

[Lord_Gareth]

Actually I was thinking Link, or maybe that guy from Shadow of the Colossus.

Link's perpetual BBEG is a poorly-played gish (or melee-lock) and he fights non-magical monsters that attempt to hit him with swords or else really tiny elementals. The Shadow of the Colossus guy gets what use out of that shield?

[bobthe6th]

Clearly we have not heard of "colloquialisms" here...put another way, you're lying if you tell me that when you read "martial artist," the image that pops into your head isn't Jackie Chan or Bruce Lee or that time you took karate lessons as a kid or something.


and? what we think a word means and what it is can be different things. you could argue that fencing is not a martial art, and that the three musketeers weren't near wuxa grade martial artists... and you could be wrong.



Also there are totally ways to stop dragon fire. The spell shield ACF for the sorcerer from Dungeonscape springs to mind, but there are others.


but that is totally a feat, and so is not what we should be doing.



The idea behind the Fighter is a warrior in full plate who defends the wizard, fights alongside the cleric, and sets up flanks and sneak attack opportunities for the rogue. The idea behind the fighter class is classic examples like Conan, Kull, and Gimli and Boromir and Aragorn and so on and so forth.

The idea behind the fighter is the knight in shining armor.

That's obviously not the idea behind this fighter...and I don't like it.

No... the knight is the knight in shining armor. He even has a horse. That is totally what you want, so why force the fighter to do what knight already does.

also, just to note the examples you gave are a barbarian, probably another barbarian, two knights, and a ranger. none of them were fighters by any stretch of the imagination. Connan was just playing E6 solo, and spent his feats on random stuff.

You are assuming that a fighter has to be a tank... while the chassis tells us it can be whatever it wants to be.
Instead of meat shield, think weapon master.



edit: rogue... really... just tweak the knight to do what you want. He is the fighter you desire, with all the tanking and meat shielding you could ever ask for. look at all that wonderful flavor. Stop trying to make the fighter a knight, as he isn't a knight.

[Rogue Shadows]

Link's perpetual BBEG is a poorly-played gish (or melee-lock) and he fights non-magical monsters that attempt to hit him with swords or else really tiny elementals.

You ask for a sword & board that's higher than level 5, I give you one. Sort of. Levels don't translate well from Zelda to D&D.

Point being:


Also, the sword & board trope only doesn't work because we've convinced ourselves that it shouldn't. There is no mechanical reason why we shouldn't be able to construct a sword & board fighter that can survive past level 8.


also, just to note the examples you gave are a barbarian, probably another barbarian, two knights, and a ranger. none of them were fighters by any stretch of the imagination. Connan was just playing E6 solo, and spent his feats on random stuff.

Admittedly I have not read much Kull, but the movie version of him seems much more like a fighter than a barbarian in terms of class.

Conan I have read, and he is a multiclass rogue/fighter, but with heavy emphasis on fighter.

In 2nd Edition, Boromir and Gimli would have been built as fighters, not knights. Indeed even in 3rd Edition you'd probably be more accurate to them as Fighters. Again, the classic knight in shining armor is a Fighter.


You are assuming that a fighter has to be a tank... while the chassis tells us it can be whatever it wants to be.
Instead of meat shield, think weapon master.

The current chassis this thread has produced is telling us that it has to be a Wuxia-style martial artist rather than whatever it wants to be.


edit: rogue... really... just tweak the knight to do what you want. He is the fighter you desire, with all the tanking and meat shielding you could ever ask for. look at all that wonderful flavor. Stop trying to make the fighter a knight, as he isn't a knight.

In all honesty I've thought about adding on some knight features, but the fighter isn't just that, and I realize that.

The question is, why is enabling things other than a Wuxia-style martial artist being frowned upon?

[bobthe6th]

You ask for a sword & board that's higher than level 5, I give you one. Sort of. Levels don't translate well from Zelda to D&D.

Knight, does what you want with a little tweaking. Bam, done, you don't have to keep troling this thread with your wish to have a sword and board fighter, driving away people.

[Rogue Shadows]

Knight, does what you want with a little tweaking. Bam, done, you don't have to keep troling this thread with your wish to have a sword and board fighter, driving away people.

I want the sword and board fighter to be possible. It's the classic fighter archetype that's been around since 1st edition. I'm not opposed to the alternatives, I'm just wondering why trying to enable other types of fighters beyond the Wuxia-style that this thread is creating, is being so opposed.

You're the ones narrowing the class, not me. Except for the combat styles thing, but I'm just not eager to allow other classes to dip two levels for six free feats.

[bobthe6th]

Conan I have read, and he is a multiclass rogue/fighter, but with heavy emphasis on fighter.

bull, wet smelly bull. He just used his skill ranks well, and wasn't maxed in anything. Totally had the able learner feat. Also, he uses barbarian rage all... the... time. He had the d12 HD, and was illiterate until he spent ranks on it.



In 2nd Edition, Boromir and Gimli would have been built as fighters, not knights. Indeed even in 3rd Edition you'd probably be more accurate to them as Fighters. Again, the classic knight in shining armor is a Fighter.


the classic 2E fighter maybe, but now we have a class that does it well. The fighter has a d10 HD, and a bad will save. He isn't as good as a knight.



The current chassis this thread has produced is telling us that it has to be a Wuxia-style martial artist rather than whatever it wants to be.

Well, one class feature is doing that... the others aren't.



I want the sword and board fighter to be possible. It's the classic fighter archetype that's been around since 1st edition. I'm not opposed to the alternatives, I'm just wondering why trying to enable other types of fighters beyond the Wuxia-style that this thread is creating, is being so opposed.


then write some god blessed S&B feats that are worth the time it took to write them. Then the fighter can grab them as part of a fighting style he brings out when he needs to stab a dragon in the face and not die. That is how the fighter gains abilaties, and one of the main reasons you can't "be" a role, because there are no feats to fit it.



You're the ones narrowing the class, not me. Except for the combat styles thing, but I'm just not eager to allow other classes to dip two levels for six free feats.


oh for crying out loud... I fixed this, and you are still harping on it. I have added a) the abilaty to chose when to attack, b) a fix to the problem of more then one level appropriate weapon being to expensive, c) a progression of overcoming DR, d) a fix to the problem of to many good early feats.

you have added a scenery destroying abilaty and a flavor ability... while managing to drive off one of the better brewers on this forum and fill two pages with ad nausium arguments about what you want this fighter to be.

How have I limited the class? because I don't want it to be pigeon holed into the pointless "classic" role of tank that is better done by classes with a unique mechanic. Or that I tried to give the class flexibility?

[Rogue Shadows]

Well, one class feature is doing that... the others aren't.

Except that one class feature has now become the "theme" which means that another suggested class feature, which lets the fighter take a hit to obtain a tactical advantage, doesn't "fit" because of that theme.


bull, wet smelly bull. He just used his skill ranks well, and wasn't maxed in anything. Totally had the able learner feat. Also, he uses barbarian rage all... the... time. He had the d12 HD, and was illiterate until he spent ranks on it.

Could he perhaps be illiterate because he was a Cimmerian and they don't have their own writing system, so of course he was illiterate? Ron E. Howard was kind of writing before D&D, you know, so not everything is going to conform perfectly, especially the literacy thing. But he definitely has levels in rogue due to all the hiding and sneaking and burglary he did almost as much as fighting (Hell, the "Know, O Prince" opening even specifically identifies him as a thief), and he did quite well at those. He is a talented tactician and strategist, and was perfectly capable of out-thinking his foes as well as out-fighting them.

While he fought ferociously, I wouldn't really call anything he did a "barbarian rage." He gets angry, but that is not indicative of a barbarian rage in and of itself. Druss is a Barbarian in the sense of the class; Conan is not.

Seriously, read "The People of the Black Circle" (http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0600941h.html) and try and tell me he's actually got levels in the Barbarian class


you have added a scenery destroying abilaty and a flavor ability... while managing to drive off one of the better brewers on this forum and fill two pages with ad nausium arguments about what you want this fighter to be.

Actually I've purposefully minimized my actual input into the class itself to avoid being accused of actually dragging the class one way or another and undermining the community aspect of it. Yes, I'm doing this instead, but have I once tried to actually change something that someone else has posted using a claim of my own?

All I want is for it to be not nearly so enticing a two-level dip (which you did not fix, at least not as of the time of this posting, so I don't know what you're talking about: taking two levels in this class still nets you six feats, 6 + Int skill points, two good saves, a d10 hit die...who wouldn't want to dip two levels in this class? A Warblade wants to dip two levels into this class!), or, failing that, for the Combat Styles feature to actually grant combat styles as opposed to a disparate collection of feats, half of which have nothing to do with combat styles; and for it to be able to deal massive damage to objects at high levels, which really it should be able to do as a matter of course. Though I note with varying degrees of interest that this was removed. Oh, wait, no, mea culpa, it was spread out and nerfed. Intriguing.

Oh, and Physical Prowess, but that was specifically added because it doesn't have an actual mechanical impact, and further was done only to get the ball rolling.

[bobthe6th]

ok, done talking, back to making.

Claim


The Fighter
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Perfect War-Skill
1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2|Combat Styles (3), Perfect War-Skill|+0
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+3|Combat Style Feat|+0
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3|Physical prowess, Artifice|+1
4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+4|Combat Style Feat, The Bigger They Are... (1), Rapid Repositioning (5ft/2 class levels)|+1
5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+4|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (4), Improved Determination, Man Over Magic(Adimantine)|+1
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+5|Combat Style Feat|+2
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+5|Physical prowess, Swift Combat Style|+2
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+6|Combat Style Feat, Whirlwind Defense, The Bigger They Are... (2)|+2
9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+6|Physical prowess, Timing|+3
10th|
+10/+5/|
+7|
+3|
+7|Combat Style Feat, Bonus Combat Style (5)|+3
11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+7|Physical prowess, Man over Magic (Exotic)|+3
12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+8|Combat Style Feat, ...The Harder They Fall, Faster than Thought|+4
13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+8|Physical prowess|+4
14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+9|Combat Style Feat|+4
15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+9|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (6)|+5
16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+10|Combat Style Feat|+5
17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10|Physical prowess, Immediate Combat Style, Man Over Magic (force)|+5
18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+11|Combat Style Feat|+6
19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+11|Physical prowess|+6
20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+12|Combat Style Feat, Bonus Combat Style (7)|+6[/table]

Hit Die: d10
Skill Points: 4 + Int modifier, x4 at 1st level. Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: history, Knowledge: nobility, Knowledge: local, Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering, Listen, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and Use Magic Device.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (not including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter gains three Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a one of the following.
weapon focus, exotic weapon proficiency, Tower shield proficiency, improved unarmed strike, rapid reload, two weapon fighting, or quick draw.

At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style.

At level 2, and every 2 levels thereafter (4, 6, 8, ect.) the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Perfect War-Skill (Ex): A Fighter ignores any prerequisites for feats that don't involve BAB, skill ranks, or class features, but only when selecting feats for their Combat Styles.

For all purposes, a Fighter may use either their Perfect War-Skill bonus or their physical ability score modifiers, whichever would be higher. For example, a 12th level Fighter with a Dexterity of 8 would have a +4 bonus to their AC from Dexterity, would get +4 to their Reflex saves, and would get 4 additional attacks of opportunity if they took Combat Reflexes.

In addition, a Fighter of at least 3rd level adds the bonus listed in the Perfect War-Skill column to their BAB for the purpose of prerequisites; finally, if a feat gives a static numerical bonus, use the feat's bonus or the bonus from Perfect War-Skill, whichever is higher.

Physical Prowess (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter gets a bonus to some aspect of his ability checks that makes him a better warrior. The fighter gains an additional bonus at 5th level and every two fighter levels thereafter (7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). The bonus must be drawn from the following list.


Applied Force (Ex): A fighter can administer force to the weakest points of inanimate objects effectively, giving the character a +1 bonus on Strength checks to break or burst items (see page 165 of the Player's Handbook).

Combat Bearing (Ex): A fighter can steady himself to fight in precarious situations, giving the character a +1 bonus on Dexterity checks to avoid falling when damaged while balancing or moving quickly across difficult surfaces (see Balance on page 67 of the Player's Handbook).

Stamina Reserve (Ex): A fighter can push his body more than normal, giving the character a +1 bonus on Constitution checks to continue running (see page 144 of the Player's Handbook) and to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march (see page 164 of the Player's Handbook).


Artifice(Su): At third level, a fighter has learned something about magical weapons. He may chose to have the highest bonus granting weapon in his possession(carried somewhere on his person) apply all relevant magical bonuses to any weapon he wields.

The Bigger They Are... (Ex): A true warrior knows that size is not the same thing as strength. Beginning at 4th level, when attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, a fighter gains a +4 bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and the like, effectively cancelling out one size category's worth of difference.

At 8th level, this bonus improves to +8 against foes who are two size categories or more larger than him, effectively cancelling out two size categories worth of difference. Against foes one size larger than him, this bonus is still only +4. For example, a human fighter would have a +4 bonus to grapple checks against and ogre (large size), but a +8 bonus against a cloud giant (huge size).

Rapid Repositioning (Ex): The fighter is adept at reading the flow of battle and quickly repositioning herself to be in the right place at the right time. From 4th level onwards, she may move up to 5ft per two class levels as an immediate action. This movement may use any medium for which she has a corresponding speed.

If this class feature is used to interrupt another character's action, the movement granted becomes subject to an 'en passant' rule: the fighter is treated as occupying her original space, her destination space, and every space she passes through during her move. If she interrupted an attack that passed through one of these spaces, she grants cover to the target of that attack.

Note that a creature may be hit by attacks against which it conferred cover on another creature, even if it was not the original target.

Improved Determination (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, a fighter gains a bonus equal to half his class level to all Fortitude and Will saves to resist effects that would restrict his actions, including (but not limited to) death effects, petrification and polymorph effects, compulsion effects, and anything that would be blocked by the Freedom of Movement spell.

Man Over Magic (Ex): At 5th level, a Fighter starts to become in tune with his weapons. Any weapon he wields is considered adamantine for hardness, HP, and overcoming Damage reduction. It also overcomes other objects harness as adamantine would.

At 9th level, his mastery becomes greater. His weapon is considered to be any exotic material(such as alchemical silver or byshek) for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

At 17th level, He masters his focus. His weapon overcomes all damage reduction, and can end any force effect(such as a wall of force or force cage) that he is adjacent to by making an attack(the attack just counts as used, he doesn't make an actual attack).

Whirlwind Defence (Ex): The fighter is adept at anticipating threats and reacting to defend herself from them.

As an immediate action, a fighter of 8th level or higher may protect herself against a single attack using a whirlwind defence.

A whirlwind defence grants omnidirectional improved cover to the character being defended. Additionally, each attack, spell, or other effect directed against a character protected by a whirlwind defense has a 50% chance of being denied line of effect altogether. Note that even though this is effectively a percentage chance for an attack to miss, it is not a miss chance.

If a fighter uses whirlwind defense against an attack of opportunity, the attack of opportunity automatically fails and is wasted unless the attacker can normally make attacks of opportunity against opponents with cover.

Whirlwind Defense is effective against incorporeal creatures, but unless the fighter has force attacks or a weapon that can strike incorporeal beings equally effectively, only grants ordinary cover against them, with no chance of interrupting line of effect.

Timing(Ex):At 9th level, a fighter knows just when to strike with his weapon. At any point during their turn, they can chose not to make an attack they would normally make. So in a full attack action, they can chose to not take one of the attacks. If they do so, they can make a number of attacks equal to the number they chose not to make as free actions at any time until their next turn.

...The Harder They Fall (Ex): By 12th level, a fighter is a master at redirecting a foe's force. When attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, he gains a bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and so on equal to his opponent's size bonus.

This ability effectively replaces The Bigger They Are...

Faster than Thought (Ex): From 12th level onwards, a fighter may, as a swift action, enter a state of heightened awareness, during which she thinks so far ahead of her enemies that they are almost incapable of doing something that she cannot counter. The benefits of this class feature last until the start of the fighter's next turn.

While in this state of heightened awareness, the fighter protects the entire area within a radius of 5ft per two class levels of her.

Allies within this area, including the fighter herself, receive the benefits of whirlwind defense against all attacks, spells, and other hostile acts. Allies other than the fighter may forgo the whirlwind defense and claim total concealment instead. The fighter also threatens the entirety of her protected area.

Each time the fighter uses this class feature, she must make a DC25 fighter level check or lose access to it for five rounds.


ok, so minor edits all around. 4+ int skills, added a knowledge, removed automatic tower shield prof and added it to the small first level list, messed with MOMs fluff a bit.
Done

[Rogue Shadows]

ok, done talking, back to making.

Claim

Fair enough.

Oh, but: the Fighter table mentions a Determination feature, and the list of abilities has Improved Determination, but Determination is lacking, so as long as you're working you might as well edit that in.

Oh, I don't suppose you could re-fluff Man over Magic to not use Ki, could you? Keep it mechanically the same, just...why is Ki being mentioned?

[toapat]

ok, done talking, back to making.

Claim

1: You are talking to rogue shadows. Last time i had a conversation with him i felt like i was talking to a brick wall, granted, it was like 8 months ago about the paladin class. He chooses his mind and never changes it.

2: I feel the class list should be de-cluttered. perhaps moving the bonus feats off to a sidebar?

[Rogue Shadows]

1: You are talking to rogue shadows. Last time i had a conversation with him i felt like i was talking to a brick wall, granted, it was like 8 months ago about the paladin class. He chooses his mind and never changes it.

Do you mean that time that I implemented half the changes you suggested and, for the other half, went out and scoured the board until I had found suitable replacement features (e.g., TG Oskar's)? That time? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13198257&postcount=2)

'Cause looking down the list of problems you suggested then...
- MAD: Fixed like you asked (except I chose to emphasis WIS over CHA, but really, does it matter? Either way an entire ability was cut from being necessary, and arguably I allowed the Pally to keep the better of the two)
- Smite: Fixed like you asked (to TG Oskar's)
- Lay on hands: admittedly I did not fix this other than to make is WIS based to fall in line with my overall cutting CHA from being a necessary stat for the class.
- Focused weapon: Removed entirely for the reasons you stated.
- Charging smite: As mentioned in the thread, you still get your horse, just a level later, but in exchange it's a feat now so now if you don't want your horse you can take something else instead. Also as mentioned in the thread, you don't have to be mounted to charge. Really, do you mean to tell me you'd rather get Paladin Mount at level 5 rather than a bonus feat which could be Paladin Mount if you like at level 6?
- PF Auras: Beefed up like you asked
- Holy Champion: Beefed up like you asked.
- Righteous Cause: This is from "Dead levels." Your argument that it was weak was invalid because it was supposed to be a weak ability with minimal impact on power. At no level is Righteous Cause the only attribute gained.
- Remove Disease: beefed up like you asked
- Bonus Feat: Expanded the feat list like you asked.
- No turn undead: because not even the cleric turns undead anymore; I had adopted the Pathfinder "channel energy" feature anyway.
- Spellcasting: beefed up like you asked.
- Intimidate & Bluff: You pointed out that these weren't on the paladin's skill list, which was a mea culpa on my part for Intimidate, and I added it. Not bluff, though. Paladin's shouldn't have bluff as a class skill.

That's the time you're referring to, right? As I recall you told me everything I was doing wrong without once suggesting a way I could fix anything, leaving that up to TG Oskar (who was quite helpful and, in all ways, a gentleman and a scholar).

Probably not the best idea to throw accusations of what someone has or has not done around, when I can just go to the link in my own signature to check if you're right or not.

[nonsi]

Because there are no "high-level" sword-and-board tropes. They either get fried trying to fight the dragon in single combat or, more likely, they're some kind of freakish maniac (see: adventurer) with a rare and exotic fighting style (see: adventurer). I mean, geez, what's the last sword-and-board guy you even SAW in fiction? Captain America? And he's, what, maybe 5th level?

You want Sword & Board ?
Ask and thou shalt receive (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13182574&postcount=1).

[toapat]

Probably not the best idea to throw accusations of what someone has or has not done around, when I can just go to the link in my own signature to check if you're right or not.

Weeks later is not When someone points it out. besides that, ive learned this: dont bother stealing the PF paladin. They did two things right, and pretty much went against the entire flavor of the class otherwise.

[Rogue Shadows]

Weeks later is not When someone points it out.

Weeks later? Try looking at the post times: Thread was created on 05-08-12; you responded on 05-09-12 at 12:25 AM (and you were the first responder); my response to that (where I changed most of what was suggested by you, or else asked you for suggestions, which you did not have) was the same day at 01:04 AM (and was last edited at 01:55 AM, same day), and then TG Oskar and I hammered out the rest of the changes to the Paladin (he did have suggestions, helpful ones, too) over the course of the next three or four days (my last post on the matter was on 05-11-12 in response to your one actual suggestion for improvement, which was to add Intimidate to the list of class skills)

So, in fact, you are provably wrong. Again. Further, while I had initially stolen from the PF paladin, the final result is actually much more in like with TG Oskar's take on the class, especially due to the way smites are handled.

Once more, probably not the best idea to make these kinds of accusations when these things are very easy to check, thanks to the nature of the message board system.

I won't bother waiting for an apology, I know I won't get one, but I will admit that I'll be pleasantly surprised if I do.

For the record, I similarly implemented changes for each of the other classes where suggested (such as creating a universal spell list for clerics; beefing up the ranger; and completely re-working the Sorcerer), as well as in the two other threads I have linkied in my sig concerning spells and prestige classes.

[lesser_minion]

The question is, why is enabling things other than a Wuxia-style martial artist being frowned upon?

It isn't. And, again, while I might be taking some inspiration from wuxia, that is still not what I'm trying to make this into.

One of the most fundamental lessons taught to historical European martial artists (soldiers, mercenaries, knights, etc.) was that a stationary target is an easy target. Real martial artists do not stand still.

The groups trying to recreate historical European martial artists have also found that strength is far less important than skill, which is why I want to push this in a skill direction and leave the raw strength aspect to optional stuff.

As for accepting damage, nearly everyone who has any business making a melee attack in D&D is competent enough in martial arts not to leave themselves open when they attack. Letting yourself get injured in exchange for an advantage is unrealistic for a lot of reasons. Even then, there are characters it might fit -- barbarians and paladins, for example.

[Rogue Shadows]

As for accepting damage, nearly everyone who has any business making a melee attack in D&D is competent enough in martial arts not to leave themselves open when they attack. Letting yourself get injured in exchange for an advantage is unrealistic for a lot of reasons. Even then, there are characters it might fit -- barbarians and paladins, for example.

So boxers are barbarians or paladins, then.

[lesser_minion]

So boxers are barbarians or paladins, then.

Boxers and wrestlers are sportsmen. They don't fight to kill, they fight to entertain. There's a little overlap, but they don't really have a D&D equivalent.

[Rogue Shadows]

Boxers and wrestlers are sportsmen. They don't fight to kill, they fight to entertain. There's a little overlap, but they don't really have a D&D equivalent.

Having said that, boxing is a legitimate martial arts style centered on training one's body to be able to take punishment, turning hits into glancing blows, leaning in to an oncoming punch in order to reduce the power behind it, and so on. But I would never describe a boxer as a "barbarian," since giving into rage is a good way to lose a boxing match. And while I'm certain that at least a few are paladins, they sort of generally lack that "warrior of the gods" feel, y'know? Far from that, boxers are pretty much the epitome of a fighter who's chosen nothing but unarmed feats. Either that or a variant monk that exchanged all his class features for a completely new set, I guess...

Similarly, the entire point behind the invention of the shield is to be able to block and absorb, rather than dodge, incoming blows. In terms of interpersonal combat (between two beings, rather than large armies, where completely different tactics are used), shields were only rendered obsolete by guns, which rendered everything else obsolete at the same time anyway.

Besides which, this is D&D, not a history class, and the fighter's biggest problem is it's weighed down by the idea that it Can't Have Nice Things because it's not "realistic" anyway.

[lesser_minion]

Having said that, boxing is a legitimate martial arts style centered on training one's body to be able to take punishment, turning hits into glancing blows, leaning in to an oncoming punch in order to reduce the power behind it, and so on.

But I would never describe a boxer as a "barbarian," since giving into rage is a good way to lose a boxing match. And while I'm certain that at least a few are paladins, they sort of generally lack that "warrior of the gods" feel, y'know? Far from that, boxers are pretty much the epitome of a fighter who's chosen nothing but unarmed feats. Either that or a variant monk that exchanged all his class features for a completely new set, I guess...

Again, boxing is a sport. It is inherently far friendlier than the sort of behaviour a fighter engages in. There is no physical conditioning that will stop a sword going through an unarmoured combatant like a hot knife through butter -- you could add such a thing to the fantasy component of the game, but why add such a thing to the fighter if it's unneeded?


Similarly, the entire point behind the invention of the shield is to be able to block and absorb, rather than dodge, incoming blows. In terms of interpersonal combat (between two beings, rather than large armies, where completely different tactics are used), shields were only rendered obsolete by guns, which rendered everything else obsolete at the same time anyway.

Not standing still is a fundamental component of your defence whether you have a shield or not. Shields can't replace movement as a defence, they merely complement it. Not moving is a death sentence in battle, no matter how much armour you wear. Or, for the refluffers out there, how cool your hairstyle is.


Besides which, this is D&D, not a history class, and the fighter's biggest problem is it's weighed down by the idea that it Can't Have Nice Things because it's not "realistic" anyway.

Actually, "fighters can't have nice things" is just a board meme, and not a helpful one. There is a double standard, and that double standard is a problem, but it's not a problem specific to the fighter, and the real place to fix it is on the pure-fantasy side of the game.

Also, are you actually accusing me of trying to make the fighter realistic? Last page you were complaining about me adding too many Wuxia elements.

[Rogue Shadows]

Also, are you actually accusing me of trying to make the fighter realistic? Last page you were complaining about me adding too many Wuxia elements.

Actually what I'm accusing you of is hypocrisy: you're speaking out against one thing because it's not realistic even as you introduce other elements that aren't realistic, either.

Also as previously mentioned I'm accusing you of making the fighter too narrow, but that hasn't changed.

Further, I'm trying to understand why your response to trying to make the classic sword & board fighter - y'know, the entire reason the class exists in the first place, and as valid an interpretation of the Fighter as any other - is to say "it doesn't work," when that's not really valid because no other fighter actually works anyway, and further it only doesn't work because it doesn't have the mechanics to support it, not because the concept is in any way flawed on such a fundamental level that the fighter can never support the concept.

Building a fighter that isn't any good at sword & board makes about as much sense as building a rogue who can't be a thief, or a wizard who can't be a blaster. This is not to say that this is the only thing they should be able to do, but rather that they should be able to do it, and arguably do it better than any other class, because that was their entire reason for being made in the first place.

Put another way, most people who like fighters don't like it when they're told "just go play a warblade." Are you really that surprised I am vehemently opposed to being told "just go play a knight?"

[Lord_Gareth]

Guys, look - if you really want to try and get something like this together, why don't we just break off and form our own project for it? Rogue's made it clear that he objects to where the community is taking his community fighter fix. Let him do his own, we'll start a thread and do ours, everyone can walk away - well, not happy, but at least with less arguments hijacking the thread instead of homebrewing happening.

[Rogue Shadows]

Guys, look - if you really want to try and get something like this together, why don't we just break off and form our own project for it? Rogue's made it clear that he objects to where the community is taking his community fighter fix. Let him do his own, we'll start a thread and do ours, everyone can walk away - well, not happy, but at least with less arguments hijacking the thread instead of homebrewing happening.

For all that I've argued, it's worth noting that I haven't changed anything about the community fighter. Indeed I didn't even actually object to the Wuxia thing in and of itself. What I objected to was the line that trying to allow the fighter to fulfill other classic fighter archetypes "doesn't fit the theme."

[Lord_Gareth]

For all that I've argued, it's worth noting that I haven't changed anything about the community fighter. Indeed I didn't even actually object to the Wuxia thing in and of itself. What I objected to was the line that trying to allow the fighter to fulfill other classic fighter archetypes "doesn't fit the theme."

Your arguing is hijacking the thread, already drove one poster away and is frankly (and on a personal note) making me want to walk away from Fighter as a concept, ban it from my games, and go through the rest of my life in the blissful absence of all Fighter-related arguments forevermore. If you are so vehemently against the results of this project, then we should split off and do our own project.

[lesser_minion]

That was pretty harsh, but it's true that this argument really isn't going anywhere.

[bobthe6th]

thread started here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265779)

[Morph Bark]

I imagine the WotC employees who made the original Fighter and other classes had similar disagreements and in the end put in only those bits they agreed on.

Then later on they each seperately added stuff for the classes in the forms of ACFs, spells, feats and other options, which ended up greatly favouring spellcasters due to their base mechanics.

[TuggyNE]

I imagine the WotC employees who made the original Fighter and other classes had similar disagreements and in the end put in only those bits they agreed on.

Then later on they each seperately added stuff for the classes in the forms of ACFs, spells, feats and other options, which ended up greatly favouring spellcasters due to their base mechanics.

This is a terrifyingly explanatory insight, if true. (And even if not it's rather disturbing to contemplate.)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Well, this has been an interesting experiment, at least. Some really nifty class features came out of this, along with the inevitable argument over the fighter's role. Oh well.